well, the darn thing is out

[pelago]

lots of good ideas there.. have a HF radio (TWO EXTRA ICOM 706'S) that needs 12vdc, thinking of using the correct antenna mount, shell only and auto tuner (hidden) with a icom hf.THEN CAN BE WB6LNH WILLYS MOBILE).. darn am so close to fireing up the old girl,,, fuel pump, master cylinder, finalize brakes, bleed them, two 12volt batteries and jury rig ignition. getting anxious to hear it run. salvaged a good header pipe from one of the jeeps, in really good shape, might throw dmuffler on it and go for it soon SOON, will video the beast running on its own

FRONT BRAKE LINES
20912092

[pelago]

i have two transfer cases, one that is set up for emergency brake with external brake shoes the other with internal brake shoes, is it possible to exchange them, do not have the complete emergency/parking brake that uses external shoes and is rather simple but am missing some pieces and parts. i have a complete transmission/transfer case withe the brake that has the internal shoes complete, just need new shoes, but it is on the other tansmission/transfer case combination. looking for a diagram of the whole thing and so far have not found it.

[gmwillys]

The following diagram is from Kaiser Willys;
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/diagram/m38a1-diagrams/brake-diagrams-willys-m38a1/emergency-brake-exploded-view-52-71-m38a1/emergency-brake-m38a1

[pelago]

i have another translmission with transfer case that has the other kind of parking brake, can i convert the transfer case to put in the other park brake? seems to be one piece that allows tht to be done and that is in the diagram209320942095

[gmwillys]

The first diagram, as you figured is the correct parking brake configuration for you A1. The two diagrams are for a civilian CJ 2A through 3B, with the cane handle in the dash. The big difference is the way the brake is actuated. The M38A1 pulls up towards the body to engage the brake. The civilian pulls the brake lever forward towards the transmission, through a push/pull cable that connects to the cane handle in the dash. Now you mentioned that you have one parking brake set up with external shoes. That has me thinking back if I've run across anything besides a John Deere two cylinder clutch that utilizes an external brake shoe.... I can't come up with any, because even the examples put out by Dodge, (M37) had internal shoes. I could be wrong, and often times are. The pictures below was of the 52 M38A1 that I had done all the body repairs to. When the body was still on the frame, you can see the parking brake handle, with the rod going down to the bottom of the brake assembly, attaching to the actuator with a clevis and pin. The actuator arm then travels upward, applying the brake shoes. Adjustment was made through shortening the length of the rod going to the actuator arm. To answer your question, yes the brake set up will fit on your transfer case, but no it will not work with the brake lever between the seats. If the external brake set up is much like the first drawing, I would figure out what I'm missing, and go for that. The CJ set would be way too much of a head ache, in my opinion.

[pelago]

PROBABLY CORRECT, lots of pieces and parts to get. bought transmissions and 4wd set up apart from jeeps,, but now have two complete engines and transmissions with transfer cases. both cruddy on outside but clean sharp gears inside. got to collect parts for parking brake, until then guess its leave it in gear and get a brick

[gmwillys]

My 46 hasn't had a functional parking brake since I've had it. I've collected everything to rebuild the whole assemble, but have not done it. As long as the engine has compression, it stays where I left it.

[LarrBeard]

Reverse holds it really well, and you don't forget to take it out of reverse....

[pelago]

KOOL, but still gonna find all the pieces and parts, all i have for the m38a1 is one rusty parking break handle

[gmwillys]

The parking brake handle is a good start, and probable the most expensive part. Check with these guys below. They keep a lot of used parts, and NOS replacement parts for Willys military Jeeps. I've purchased a lot from them, and have had no complaints. Their prices are reasonable also.

https://quartertonparts.com/product-category/brakes/

[pelago]

FOR TEMPORARY USE AND JUST TO START IT UP... will use a mechanical guage for oil pressure. now since it is pretty positive that many of the original features of the m38a1 have been lost to history in this motor, damn if i can find the place where the actual oil will go to the sending unit. there is a strange oil line that is on the oil pump side that goes from bottom of engine to the head on back of motor, what in the heck is that?. do you put a "T" fitting where the oil goes to the filter for the oil pressure?? damifiknow

[gmwillys]

There are four oil galley ports on the driver's side of the block. They are in line with the oil pump, and are spaced along the length of the block. The oil pressure gauge sending unit attaches to the last rear galley port, closest to the bell housing. The sending unit can be attached right to that port, but I have seen a couple of examples where the sending unit was mounted on the passenger side of the engine. I would look to where the wiring harness lays, in regards to where I would mount it. You can use that port for running a mechanical oil pressure gauge, or any of the other three. The line that you were wondering about may be a fording vent line. The following links should get you going in the right direction.


http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=219337
http://www.surplusjeep.com/M38A1/m38a1-group_1_engines.htm#Upper_Vent_System_-_Exploded

[pelago]

lets talk about wheels. i have what are supposed to be correct wheels for the m38a1 however i feel that what i have are not correct. They only fit on the rear they will not go on the front. have looked at kaiser willys and seen theirs and kinda pricey for steel wheels, but if that is it then that is it. also were they in fact split rims? i had a old dodge truck that had huge wheels and they were split rims and tire shops had cages that they took them apart. damn things could explode consequently they were worked on inside a cage to work on. think old mr tire worker guy did not want to get killed having a wheel explode. whats he deal?

AND ONE MORE THING DONE BEFORE WE FIRE HER UP.... ME AND THIS GUY GONNA FIRE HER UP2102 2101

[LarrBeard]

They were solid rims.

Curiosity - what doesn't fit, bolt circle or clearance for hub?

Did you have a brake drum swap out somehow and now the fronts and rears don't match?

[pelago]

clearance for hub? just is lacking a bit,, got paint on there maybe thats it??

[gmwillys]

The 41 through 45 Willys MB used what was called a combat rim. These rims where two piece rims that were bolted together along the center disk. These are different from split rims meaning that they did not have the retainer ring that went around the outside diameter of the rim, like your Dodge truck. The correct wheel for your M38A1 is a 16" x 4.5". The easy way to recognize a military Kelsey Hayes 16" wheel, is that next to one stud on one of the bolt circle, there is a small 1/8" hole.
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9635
The attached photos are of my 46 CJ2A, with the civilian 16 x 4.5" wheels and 700 x 16" tires. The last photo is of a Dodge M37 with the split rims.

[gmwillys]

Here is a better view of the M37 split rims. The second picture is of the M38A1, with a couple of the original factory wheels and tires. Some of the tires were date stamped 1952, and still where in descent shape.

[pelago]

something really wrong with what i have or what i was told i have?? 17 5/8 X 5 3/4 just think i have wrong rims??
2113

[gmwillys]

That is an M151 MUTT wheel. That's why it won't fit over the front hub. The bolt pattern is correct, but the center hub opening is smaller than a Willys. The offset will be different also. the tire will be tucked closer to the frame, and will not look right with the body on.

[LarrBeard]

gmwillys - Is there anything you don't have at least one of?

[LarrBeard]

Ira - Awhh, man. You've done such a nice job of refinishing a wheel you can't use. Somebody out there needs it!

[gmwillys]

That's the problem, I take on other people's projects, then don't get to my own. At one time I had five Willys, and one Mutt at the house. Only three of them belonged to me.

The M151A2 belongs to a guy I worked with. It was sitting in his back yard for several years. He was down on his luck, so I offered to do some rust repair. The floors were pretty much gone, so it took a lot of metal work. It was good therapy for him, to clean up all the piece parts. He is now driving it around, and enjoying it once again.
The 1952 Dodge M37 belonged to my father. He bartered for it from the local volunteer fire district. It had less than 12,000 original documented miles on it. It resided in Washington State now, with its new owner.

Pelago, there is a market out there for your M151 rims. Since you have spent the time to get them perfect, I don't see you having any issues. If you get desperate, I do have the four 16" civilian wheels that we could come to an agreement on. I have to believe that they were original to the 47 CJ2A I had, and maybe the tires also. The tires hold air, but that's about it. The side walls are coming off in chunks, but I have driven up town on them. I have several 15" wheels, but they just don't look right on the M38A1.

[pelago]

Ira - Awhh, man. You've done such a nice job of refinishing a wheel you can't use. Somebody out there needs it!



yeah sandblasted primered and painted. damn but in fact i did not verify that they were in fact the correct ones for the M38A1

[gmwillys]

There should be a market out there for the M151 wheels. Since you've gone through and made them pretty, you should be able to get a fair price for them. The going price on line is $99.00 for motor pool fresh wheels. These have the original multi layers of paint. You may try and get $150 for yours.

[gmwillys]

LarrBeard,

My neighbors never know what I may drag home next.

[LarrBeard]

We're old soldiers and sailors here, so you knew we were going to ask...

What are the details on the cannon?

[gmwillys]

Thank you all for your service, first of all.
The cannon is a reproduction Napoleon 3/4 scale. The barrel was purchased from a college professor who had it set on the diving board of his pool. It was weathered, but intact. The carriage and blacksmithing was hand built by my father. The wagon wheels were found at a farm auction, if I remember correctly. The bore was between 2 1/2" and 2 3/4". Again from memory. The cannon would consume a 35 mm film canister, and a half of black powder... However many grains of powder that is? It was a crowd pleaser.

[pelago]

Thank you all for your service, first of all.
The cannon is a reproduction Napoleon 3/4 scale. The barrel was purchased from a college professor who had it set on the diving board of his pool. It was weathered, but intact. The carriage and blacksmithing was hand built by my father. The wagon wheels were found at a farm auction, if I remember correctly. The bore was between 2 1/2" and 2 3/4". Again from memory. The cannon would consume a 35 mm film canister, and a half of black powder... However many grains of powder that is? It was a crowd pleaser.

i have a cannon ball with that diameter, i actually found that on a farm that was on the periphery of stones creek battlefield, my great grand father fought there and later became the commanding officer of old soldiers home in danville il later it became the va hospital

[LarrBeard]

We are just such endless founts of arcane knowledge around here.

For those reading along, black powder is graded by grain size. Black powder for cannons is generally #1, the next finer grade is Fg, followed by FFg (generally considered as a rifle powder) and FFFg, pistol powder.

Since I was overcome with curiosity (it's winter and its too dern cold to get out of the house), I found a 35mm film can and I filled it with FFFg black powder to get an idea of just how many grains would be in a film cannister.

Drum roll ... a film cannister is about 475 grains of FFFg. I would guess that #1 or even Fg would not pack as tightly - be less dense- so guess 425 or 400 grains to a cannister and a cannister and a half of cannon powder would be about 600 grains (plus or minus, your results may vary).

Doing a little arithmetic - with a cast iron ball, you would have a 3-pounder!

[LarrBeard]

Now - a Jeep question:

Since I'm not a "little Jeep" person, I'm not familiar with "combat wheels". I looked and read that they were two-pieces, bolted together front and back with 8 bolts and, from what I can see - they are precious now.

Why are they called "combat wheels" and why two pieces.

Old coots want to know!

[pelago]

a guess, two pieces maybe in forward areas in combat, might mean or was able to change tires easily, two pieces bolted together might have made it easier to remove tire from rim and install new tire and tube??? just a guess getting a tire off the rim just not that easy???

[pelago]

We are just such endless founts of arcane knowledge around here.

For those reading along, black powder is graded by grain size. Black powder for cannons is generally #1, the next finer grade is Fg, followed by FFg (generally considered as a rifle powder) and FFFg, pistol powder.

Since I was overcome with curiosity (it's winter and its too dern cold to get out of the house), I found a 35mm film can and I filled it with FFFg black powder to get an idea of just how many grains would be in a film cannister.

Drum roll ... a film cannister is about 475 grains of FFFg. I would guess that #1 or even Fg would not pack as tightly - be less dense- so guess 425 or 400 grains to a cannister and a cannister and a half of cannon powder would be about 600 grains (plus or minus, your results may vary).

Doing a little arithmetic - with a cast iron ball, you would have a 3-pounder!

i have a few black powder firearms,,,, three 45/70's two antique one is a 1873 trap door carbine?? yeah a real one, the other is a 1873 trap door rifle. then i have a "
quigley" gun, (new) damn if it aint accurate, good out to 300 yards holds true, loud, quite a kick but a shooter. and have four original colt black powder pistols dont dare shoot them but they are in shootable condition, one belonged to my late great grandfather Col Martin Barger, 1851 colt used in civil war, and have providence to that fact have his belt, buckle, and pistol and one sword

[LarrBeard]

Old guns just wander into my house.

A friend came by one day and asked "Do you want this thing?"

I said "How much". He said "Just take it, a hired man left it in the work house at Dad's farm back in '58 or so and I'm tired of having to move it around".

Being the obliging guy I am, I said "Sure".

The thing was a 1873 Trapdoor Springfield rifle (.45-70 of course) - a bit the worse for wear - someone had tried to take off the barrel with a pipe wrench - but basically pretty good shape.

Am old guy in Vegas (now dead) found some history on it. It needed a sear and an extractor - but I got it fixed and I shoot it for kicks and giggles. I shoot about 30 grains of 5744 (a very light load) and even the teen-age grandson doesn't think it has any recoil.

I found bullets at the Acme bullet company (yeah - they make coyote bullets). The bullets have a protective coating/lubricant on them to protect you from lead hazards while you handle them - seriously.

My wife says they look like lipstick..

[gmwillys]

Thank you for the information. I've meant all weekend to figure out how many grains was in a film canister. I do know a two pound can does not last long. I like the traditional black powder fire arms, which led me to purchase a Thompson Center .50 cal. black powder rifle. My favorite rifle for accuracy and shoot ability would be the M14 platform.

I find it interesting about your Great Grandfather being the commanding officer of the Old Soldiers home in Danville. I grew up not too awfully far from there, and used to go to Rantoul for the government auctions at Chanute AFB. Dad would come home all the time with a whole trailer load of stuff for cheap. He once bought an industrial sewing machine that was around eight feet long. The needle looked like an eight penny nail. The machine was used to repair parachute harnesses. He also would come home with pallets of M151 MUTT parts, all for pennies on the dollar.

The reasoning behind a combat rim, (Pelago is correct) is to be able to dismount and mount tires without having to break out the tire spoons. Non directional tires have stiff sidewalls, and they are a bugger to change on a tire machine, let alone using spoons. It's tough not to damage the tubes when mounting the tire. A lot of modern forklifts use this tested technology to mount tires also.

[pelago]

ANOTHER QUESTION.... BATTERIES i have both trays and rebuild housing, but batteries. went looking and can not find correct size to fit in trays??

[LarrBeard]

I did some more poking and like most things, there are at least two factors in something like that.

Yep, I can see that changing a tire is a hard job. Most tire changes would have been a motor pool or transport section job. The GI would just swap to the spare most times but someone had to get that bead over the rim!

The other factor is productivity. There was a war on and doing it quicker, cheaper and with less labor was always a factor. The one piece wheel requires fabricating two pieces, then welding them together some way. The combat wheel was two stamped pieces with eight bolts, easier to build and a lot easier to swap a tire..

[gmwillys]

The batteries are 2HN. The replacements are expensive, but they are the right size. Here is some information that is out there on the inter web.

http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2131

http://www.debellajeepparts.com/m38premier.htm

[pelago]

OUCH 209.00 EACH might not be pretty but gonna look and see one that fits close to the shape of the battery tray, little less width, little less height, wth

[LarrBeard]

My friend with the M38 declares that you absolutely need to put a 24-volt battery conditioner on them immediately.

Just passin' the word on.

[gmwillys]

You might want to check out an EXIDE 51R-60. The dimensions are close enough, and are about half the cost. Check out a Tractor Supply store, along with your measurements. A lot of the time, their batteries are on sale. A battery conditioner is a good idea if you are not going to run your A1 at least once a week. It is hard on the expensive voltage regulator to have to run the generator at full field to charge low batteries.

[pelago]

yeah,, went to local small western auto and lookd at the 51R, they should work, not precise measurement but as you say close enough can not imagine what two batteries from one of the places that advertise the Hln battery would cost and do not want to know. fuel pump coming along with the two external flex oil lines,,, soon to start her hp

[LarrBeard]

You promised: " .... soon to start her hp"

As we used to say around certain old airplanes:

"Fire Watch on station?"

"Fire watch on station - Aye"

"All Clear left?"

"Stand by to start one"

"Spin one"

(After you counted X number of blades turn through)

"Start One"

Couhgf - gagg - blurb- flakk - lots of smoke -

Hot dern - it started again!

You gotts to send pictures when you do ...

[pelago]

with fingers crossed that is the plan, maybe even short video... got to do this in steps,,, run up to temp, drain oil, and water, refill and do it again. still got to figure out the vacume. the fuel pump coming is not military, but it seems as if the one i sent in was not military original but it is what it is

[gmwillys]

The batteries will be alright. They stay hidden in the cowl, so only you'll know that they aren't military original. The fuel pump shouldn't be too much of an issue. I doubt you'll be out in any major rain storms, but it would be nice to have the wipers in case you do.

Nothing beats a radial engine starts, except maybe a Rolls Royce/Merlin supercharged V-12.

[LarrBeard]

Watching a guy crank a P-51 with it set FULL RICH for start, especially at dawn or dusk, ...

Well, if that doesn't touch somthin' at the bottom of your soul - go check your pulse.

[gmwillys]

Agree 100%. This P40 is my background screen on my work computer.

[bherde]

Just picked up on the warbird startup. That's the only way to start them! Had a pilot crank up an R1820 in navy at mid setting, blew the super clean off the engine.

[gmwillys]

bherde, Thank you for your service!

[pelago]

Watching a guy crank a P-51 with it set FULL RICH for start, especially at dawn or dusk, ...

Well, if that doesn't touch somthin' at the bottom of your soul - go check your pulse.

was working out in the back yard a few years ago and heard a incredible engine sound and looked up and a p47 and a p51 flew rather low over house on their way south. never heard such a sound in my life and have not heard it since, what a sight, p51 was silver and p47 was dark grey with yellow nose... damn it was neat

[51 CJ3]

Large radial engine (3350 or 4360) doing a full power ground run at night does it for me. Between the glorious sound of round and the ring of blue fire around the cowl... giving me goose bumps just thinking about it. :D

[pelago]

when calling air support, we never knew what would show up, what kind of aircraft, and quite frankly what kind of aircraft meant little to us. what we wanted was fire and death on the target, near a place called the rockpile. I called in for air support, and what shows up was incredible two A1E skyraiders, decked out in cammy paint. they made two runs over target with napalm. then came back again with guns. Ever have a skyraider go over your head at about 150 foot with 50's hitting targer. only one problem, four fifties make for a lot of brass and it rained right down on us, i have a scar on my nose from 50 case that got me right on the nose...........

along the same lines again at the same place only a different day, had to call in for fire support, i called the co ordinance in and heard "round out" from radio, biggest damn thing i ever saw, looked up and it looked like a volkswagon going overhead and the target got nailed, nailed but good. called fire for effect, and then again looked up and there were 3 volkswagons going overhead, target erupted, then real quick 3 more and that was it. all i could say was holy **** what was that over the radio. got this deep voice back thru handset and all it said was "This is the USS New Jersey son"

[LarrBeard]

Two Stories and comments:

Airplane Story: There are two flying B-29's in the world today; FiFi and Doc. FiFi has been around for a while and Doc went into Air Show condition about a year ago. I'll call it one day last May, I heard that grumble of radial engines. I dashed out of the house and looked around and after a bit of looking I found the airplane. I was expecting a B-17 (not too rare), but at about 8-thousand feet above a broken cloud deck was the instantly recognizable silhouette of a B-29. Huge wingspan, straight wings. almost a plus sign in wing to fuselage ratio .. OH MY GOSH - a B-29.

The aircraft passed almost directly over Baer Field, Ft. Wayne on a SW heading as I recall. I hit the computer and I found that FiFi was at an Air Expo on the east coast that day. Doc was unaccounted for - no appearance scheduled. I sent an email to the Doc Foundation to try to verify a Doc sighting, but no response. It was my sighting, so I'll claim One Doc on the board!.

Air Support story: FYI - the radio voice call sign for the USS New Jersey was "ONRUSH". She was just coming back into service in mid-1968 when we (USS Shasta (AE-6)) deployed to the Mediterranean. The afternoon we deployed we passed her inbound to Hampton Roads after a day or two at sea doing gun calibration. When we deployed we carried a number (I never knew how many) of 16-inch projectiles in the #2 Hold deep tank along with bagged powder in cannisters.

A friend of mine who spent a couple of "vacations" in Iraq has commented about the expended cases from the gun on an A-10. They'll do more that scar your nose. His comment "A Warthog can make it rain on everybody".

[pelago]

a dozen warthogs sent to the sandbox. those 16" shells are really something, they make real estate turn into talcom powder, people with it. a lot of 3rd world people would be terrified of that ship2160


previous owner no longer needed it

[gmwillys]

There was a third B-29, (Kee Bird) that was found in Newfoundland. It made an emergency landing and was left there in the early 50's. There was a Nova documentary made about it, on how a crew was working to fly it back out. It is a sad story about the outcome.

[51 CJ3]

There was a third B-29, (Kee Bird) that was found in Newfoundland. It made an emergency landing and was left there in the early 50's. There was a Nova documentary made about it, on how a crew was working to fly it back out. It is a sad story about the outcome.

If that is the plane that landed on the lake then some people went back to get it several years later but it burned up, I need to watch the show to see how it compares to what one of the mechanics told me. It was quite a tale.

[pelago]

PROBLEM!!!!
Got my replacement fuel pump from Mike and guys at Kaiser... WONT FIT?? CAN NOT GET BOLT HOLES TO LINE UP, WHOLE UNIT NEEDS TO GO TO LEFT AND THE MOTOR MOUNT WILL NOT LET IT GO IN!! Now returning the new pump not a issue, Kaiser great on backing their products. The issue is a pump, wont run without one. This morning i got out my digital calipers and the OLD pump 3.542".... at problem area, the NEW pump 3.657".................. that 0.115 extra width at problem area is the issue.. Am stuck with motor mounts and steel plate it attaches to. that is a given, it cant go away. a person at Ebay is advertising a pump, but its ebay???? NEED a pump. like to get a original one, but???21612162


2164
ebay pump

[pelago]

2165 in a holding pattern until i figure out the fuel pump


tale of the pump. three pumps here. one left came off late 50's m38A1, one in middle came off engine in restoration frame, one on the right is new one from kaiser. Tried something, took the new pump and added standoff and the damn thing went in. but of course the arm not long enough to engage the cam. some options swap out arm, (lots of crap inside these pumps, might botch it) get hold of manufacture send it in to be rebuild ??? (probably cant be done). get new pump from somewhere,,, was told to forget the damned vent system it is a nightmare but vent to intake manifold (already done) "T" off that to distributor and get a glass topped bowl pump??


2167

[51 CJ3]

Assuming you measured the diameter of the pump, is it feasible to shave .058 inches off the side that interferes or shave a little from each component in play to get the total?

[pelago]

seriously am considering that, and part of it is gasket material sticking out between pieces. am seriously looking at that. However if for some reason it still wont fit i have buggered up any chance of returning it $139.00 down the dumper, and still no pump............

[gmwillys]

I would talk directly to the folks at Quarter ton & Military, about the fuel pump that they offer. https://quartertonparts.com/ They are a good group of guys that have a vast amount of experience dealing with Military Jeeps. I've purchased a lot of OEM/NOS parts from them, and have no problems what so ever. After looking up the Ebay add, that fuel pump is for a civilian application also. Here is a link with some information regarding the use of different types,(civilian) fuel pumps.
http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=196447&start=15

Kee Bird was in fact the B-29 that made the emergency landing on a lake. The bird was almost ready for it's return to the air, but an APU wasn't tied down, and turned over. The gas tank leaked and started a fire. The bird burnt to the ice, leaving little to be salvaged.

[51 CJ3]

I guess it’s been close to 20 years since I heard the story. I didn’t remember many details other than abandoned aircraft on a frozen lake, a crew got it running, APU caught fire as they went to takeoff and the film crew didn’t want to use their helicopter to help someone who was hurt or maybe sick. With the info you provided I was able to do a search and fill in some blanks.

[LarrBeard]

Kee Bird was sad story of a lot of things gone very wrong that cost people their lives as well as losing an airplane.

[pelago]

at the Nationals at Camp Perry two years ago, there was a B17 that was offering rides, 300.00 for a hour ride in a B17. Damn my shooting schedule just would not let me go for a ride, but i wanted to......
on a lighter note, it seems that i haad a original GI pumpt and did not know it2178 the one on the far left is a original pump Kaiser Willys will rebuild it, the wrong pump and the GI pump on its way to Aiken SC as i type

[gmwillys]

$300 for an hour ride would be worth every penny. As a youngster, we would go to Oshkosh, then in the fall, we would go to the Stearman Fly In. I'm a sucker for a war bird. The Boeing museum in Seattle is worth a visit also. I have had the chance to be up close to three B-17s. Sentimental Journey, Liberty Belle (lost to in flight fire), and EAA's Aluminum Overcast. Have yet to book a ride though. Bucket list item.

Sounds like you are back on track as far as your fuel pump. What is the turn around time on a rebuild?

[pelago]

UPDATE..

hooked two new 51r in series to starter and ground and hit the starter, she turns over and starter is good, plus had 12lbs oil pressure starter only

[LarrBeard]

"Spin One"

You've got the process started.
Good oil pump, no open lines.

[gmwillys]

It won't be long now. That first time she pops off, then you'll be dialing in the timing. You'll have here purring in no time.

[pelago]

AIRPLANE STUFF any one ever ride in a dc3. lst time in okinawa there was two hummers one that would take guys to korea for a pheasant hunting trip funded by special services.. we flew in the hummer, kinda bumpy but crew said all normal. good trip got four pheasants and they were cooked in a "lodge" actually just a big korean house rented by special services. fun trip

[gmwillys]

Ozark Airlines had a DC3 on display, outside of one of the local airport terminals. The bird was brought out for air show rides for a donation fee. We took a 30 minute ride for about $20 a person. You can tell that there are no assists to the controls, because you bob and weave throughout the flight. It seemed like a real stick and rudder aircraft. The cough, spit, sputter of the radials firing up, and the smell of the avgas. Nothing is comparable.

[Boodogboo]

I will give one hint, ( BIG )

[gmwillys]

If I were a betting man, it is outside the front of Big Daddy Don Garlits museum.

[LarrBeard]

Concur with location.

Ocala FL, east side of I-75 at about FL MM 353 or so.

It's an A-7 Corsair II, the replacement for the A-4 Skyhawk. The tail livery is VA-105 (Attack Squadron 105, Gunslingers).

http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VA/Attack-Squadron-105.htm

We are just bottomless pits of arcane knowledge aren't we .....

[Boodogboo]

Yaw know airplanes! Great place to visit.

[gmwillys]

Went to see the Swamp Rat(s), remember the A-7 out front. That's how my mind works.

[Boodogboo]

LoL, know watt u mean.

[pelago]

going to take 4 weeks for pump rebuild

[gmwillys]

Four weeks spent now will save you head aches in the long run.

[LarrBeard]

going to take 4 weeks for pump rebuild

Which pump, and how did you find it? Last we heard was 12psi oil
pressure on cranking.

[gmwillys]

Pelago had an original G.I. issue pump all along. He returned the civilian pump that he had previously rebuilt for a refund, then sent the G.I. pump in for a refresh. The M38A1 took a special pump and spacer to clear the fording vent fitting and tube. He could have removed the fitting, but he had already routed the vent tube. I commend him for doing the job correctly, even though it pushes out the expected start date out by 4 weeks. It's funny that me personally, will strive to find date coded correct parts for the military restoration. When it comes to my own CJ2A, if it isn't too obvious, let it ride. The wagon is a whole other story. It will be a stock frame and body, but modernized with a different engine.

[pelago]

ANOTHER MILESTONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really quite a insignificant thing, most of you guys would not even bat a eye at this... I CHANGED OUT A "U" JOINT!!!! on the drive shaft to rear differential,,, one of the original :U: joints was still quite tight, have to admit i had a mechanic friend actually knock out the old u joints on both drive shafts.... but now the main drive has a new u joint and also have "U" bolts to put it in..... last time i did this was 1962 on my 54 ford.... actually watched a video on utube about changing u joints, i was afraid i would dick it up 24days and counting on fuel pump
just a few things to finish up this section of restoration, then on to the body work, which is kind of extensive


223522362237

[gmwillys]

A step forward is an achievement. A lot of time, it is a whole lot better to use a press to ease U-joints out. I still use a hammer and a section of Chrysler torsion bar, and the chain pocket on the trailer to drive out U-joints. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it takes the above tools, and a few choice words. I would much rather do older vehicle U-joints much more than newer aluminum drive shafts. Old iron holds together much better than modern crap.

[51 CJ3]

I never seem to have the same tools available. I’ve beat them using punches, sockets and extensions using anything from wood blocks to a curb for support. I have also pressed them out in a vise or with a bottle jack and the vehicle weight. I thought I died and went to heaven the day I got to use an actual press.

[pelago]

I cheated, took both drive shafts to a trusted friend Cliffs muffler shop in swansboro, he took em out in short order...
part numbers for reference got them at advance box type auto parts, got lucky, they all fit fine and are cheaper, and i got a military discount of 10%
MOOG U JOINT #369
DORMAN U-JOINT REPAIR KIT #81008

[gmwillys]

Work smarter, not harder. There is nothing wrong with taking it to someone who has the right tools. I'm just stubborn, or cheap. The long suffering misses says I'm both.

[pelago]

"The long suffering misses says I'm both." i hear that from son, daughter, friends all the above, maybe that is why is survived 28 years in corps

[pelago]

02/12/18 both front and rear drive shafts in good and tight, another check off on the list

[gmwillys]

The only one more hard headed than me, is my daughter. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[pelago]

a question. i have some concern over the "U" bolts. i can not put a torque wrench on the bolts and dont know what the torque is anyway. concern is that they might vibrate loose. would it be a good idea to take a punch and punch the threads right above the nut to prevent a "vibration loosening" have had old timers say this is a good way to prevent some things from loosening, and i did this on my diesel in my sailboat, the punch stops nuts from loosening by them selves but still can be removed by wrench

[gmwillys]

There is no torque speck on U-joint bolts. That is a situation where some German torque is applied... Good-N-tight. In my opinion, I would use lock tight thread locker instead of punching the nut. Another option would be to use nylock or crimp nuts. Keep in mind that the standard U-joint strap and nut are grade 10. Anything lower than that is taking a risk. If the lock washer is in good condition, it would hold the nut tight forever. If there is that much vibration in the drive line to loosen up the hardware, there is other problems to contend with. When doing your PMCS, you'll be there greasing the U-joint anyway, take a second to check the torque.
Caterpillar does not use either lock nuts, nor lock washers on any of their engines or equipment. They rely on installing flat washers face up, and proper torque. Flat washers tend to have a natural cup to them, and when torqued properly, the cup flattens out and preloads the fastener to prevent loosening. My slightly worthless fact for the day.

[pelago]

and i have some loc tight also.. good idea.. now here is another one


2243 2244


if i make a jumper from pin "C" to the distributor and connect the cable from reg to pos on starter i have effectively created a link from volt reg to dist to start engine without doing the complete wiring loom, kinda large task now and loom needs repair

[gmwillys]

Pin C should be constant power. If you jump from there to the distributor, then the engine will run. Does your M38A1 have the floor foot starter switch, or is it new enough to have a starter relay? Floor switches make life a whole lot simple when rewiring.

Speaking of rewiring, was your Jeep an original radio platform? Quick way to tell is that there is a harness run along the passenger, inside side panel, leading to the top of the tool compartment. Usually the harness is gone, but the L bracket mount remains. The reason I ask, and may be incorrect, is that the original harnesses were shielded. If so, you may have fun is reworking the harness. Not impossible, just a pain with the extra shielding added in.

[pelago]

have two frames and two harness's actually have both harness's and have the radio lead, and am interested in adding a radio, i have access to a HF radio of the era and just might do it, and i have the ham license also
might be kinda cool..
thought that constant power would come from there,,, will lay the harness out on a 4X8 , sheet of plywood pin it down and and lay it out as it goes in and rebuild. starter pedal, yeah but no body on it, so i added a vise grip to the starter and got leverage, works.

getting anxious to start it up, and waiting for the damn fuel pump and have to horse together a suitable vent system (less than the diagram) to start it up and then start on the plumbing nightmare for full vent..... even the bell housing has a vent lead. oh well it is what it is

[gmwillys]

The 4X8 plywood is a brilliant idea. That sure beats laying the harness out on the kitchen table. I had seen a fellow that had taken an MP3 player, and wired it into his speaker set. He had air strike call outs recorded in a loop for display purposes. The mobile ham radio would be a good deal to have set up.

When the military put the rec for the venting system, they were not messing around. Even the master cylinder fill plug had a vent line to it.

I can understand being anxious to start. You may have a lot of body work to tackle, but when the engine is running, that's a big load of problems handled. Everything after that is just time.

[pelago]

"but when the engine is running, that's a big load of problems handled. Everything after that is just time. " and that says a lot. the body is well, shall we say well used and a bit deteriorated..... but repair panels and a welder will do wonders

[gmwillys]

Since you have two frames, that makes it nice to ensure all your mounting points stay true. Then you don't have to worry with marring up your finished frame when cutting and welding. Tack all the floor panels in place, then you can flip the body for finishing. I had to install the driver's side floor first, because that was the worst part of the floor. Overall, there was not enough steel remaining at the start to pull the body from the frame. The cowl started to fold toward the rear when the fasteners were removed. I found that 1X1" square tubing worked well to brace the body. Using several dial angle indicators, going fore and aft/port and starboard, I was able to straighten the cowl back out to plumb. Then the stiffeners were added to keep it that way. The stiffeners were tacked on to the upper wheel wells, then bolted onto the dash mounts. A kicker was added in front of the wheel wells, going down into the rear floor riser. Tip for the day, when welding on to the original 1950's steel, do not be afraid of cranking up the welder amps high. The old steel is of a much higher quality than some of the replacement metal. When plug welding the new metal on to the original steel, focus the heat on the base metal, then when the puddle is started, loop in the new metal to fuse the two. I use a Miller 135 110v mig welder, using .035 solid wire, with argon gas. All of the replacement metal was drilled for plug welding, to replicate the original spot welds. There are hobby grade spot welders available, but the reach is limited. The spot welder needs to be able to reach both sides of the surface to make a circuit.

[gmwillys]

More pictures of the body work.

[pelago]

wow, i am at the rust stage, will need new passenger side floor, passenger side outside panel work, and inside brace work, new tool box new back deck and right rear inner fender repair. very impressive,

Now have a new snag. the distributor has a male receptacle for 24dc in from ignition, thats the rub, dont have the female plug to go on the wire end, dont have one and will need one

[51 CJ3]

Is this it?
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/two-to-one-interlock-douglas-connector-6-required-fits-50-66-m38-m38a1

[51 CJ3]

Nope. I found a picture. But this might help:

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/distributor-lead-wiring-kit-fits-50-66-m38-m38a1

[pelago]

damn, now how couldnt i find it, thats it, thanks

[gmwillys]

If Kaiser Willys doesn't have it, you don't need it. Between them and Quarter Ton Military parts, (who carries a lot of NOS parts) I have no complaints.

[pelago]

nope. I found a picture. But this might help:

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/distributor-lead-wiring-kit-fits-50-66-m38-m38a1

what wording did you use in the kaiser catalog search engine??

[51 CJ3]

what wording did you use in the kaiser catalog search engine??

I typed “where can i find a 24 volt distributor connector?” into google and those were either at or near the top of the list.

[pelago]

cool, when i went to kaiser and had display for electrical, and distributor qued i got nothing, but when i highlighted your post description to kaiser up it came and ordered same.. thanks a lot. and on another note, (had to try it) HORN WORKS, LOUD TOO

[pelago]

tried about ten different combination of words for repair ends for wiring harness for m38A1 on the kaiser catalog page no such luck someone has to have them have broken and missing ends on the harness. NOT SPENDING 800.00 ON A NEW HARNESS. firm believer in repair what ya got

[gmwillys]

Here is some information and how to questions and answers. The second link loos like they have everything you need, without the $800 price tag.

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=177991

All the parts you may ever need

https://www.willysjeepparts.com/Wiring_C.htm

[pelago]

dems da ones thanks

[gmwillys]

No problem Sir. I retract my earlier statement that Kaiser Willys has everything.

[pelago]

having a degree of success with the wiring harness, there are tags on them with numbers and of course the schematic confirms it, dont always get the tag read, too beat up, but enough are being read to enable the next ones with multimeter to identify, clean up process continues

[gmwillys]

That is the best part about military machinery. The TM was written for the average 19 year old soldier could follow. The contracts for the equipment was specked out to label everything accordingly. Our current vehicles follow the same specifications, but have forgotten to keep things simple. Now we have diesel engines that if a sensor blinks out, then the engine could shut down. Not a good plan for a combat vehicle. Then, if that wasn't enough, the motor pool doesn't do much more than change oil. They are not trained to troubleshoot the electronics. Now, if there is a break down, it puts not only the crew of the down vehicle in danger, but also the recovery crew. The mechanical diesels were much more reliable, and easy to work on.

[pelago]

and the work continues, was going to order a complete tube kit for fuel, but since i got to learn how to bend the tubing anyway discarded that idea. the simple start up fuel and dist vacume to start with. then back to body, will order the complete system for the master cyl though and of course the dist hook up as described before

[pelago]

am finding a large amount of cracked wire? wonder if it is worth fixing,,, cracked wire exposed to bare wire not good, any source for 16 gauge 14 gauge by the spool wiring this jeep although tedious (and requires patience) is not all that difficult as long as you have a wiring diagram and connectors, in a 2 foot run found many many deep cracks to exposed wire? would not want to spend hours on something that is doomed to failure....I rewired a 35 foot sailboat, and that included all the NMEA wiring and dc electrical took a while, and i used marine grade wire, not cheap but today the wire is as good as the day i put it in... while contemplating the entire harness, i took a break and got out all the lights, tail light both left and right work fine, front dim outs in the radiator frame work fine, horn works fine, hooked up the ignition switch to the harness and turned ignition on and got 24vdc at the point where it plugs into distributor. checked leads for oil pressure and temp, all good Hmmmmm

[LarrBeard]

A. You know the answer about fixing it - it's just going to keep on cracking.

B. Do you want to try to keep wire like the original? Is it copper, rubber and braid - or just an insulated wire?

C. How many small conductors in the wire - 7, 9 lots more?

D. Does anyone reading the mail here have a MIL-SPEC for the wire (e.g. MIL-W-22759/11 - M22759/11) or some number that looks like that? I know MIL-W-22759 or M22759 isn't vehicle wire. Even chintzy wire is expensive these days. I had to buy two spools of #24 for an electronics project just this last month and a 100-foot roll cost $49.00.

If you can find a MIL-SPEC reference, you can often find odd lengths of wire for a more reasonable price. It may be an odd color (red with brown tracer) and it still won't be cheap - but more reasonable.

[LarrBeard]

Maybe?

http://www.eriksmilitarysurplus.com/prwimse.html

And, more than you would ever want to know about this wire...

http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-DTL/MIL-DTL-13486D_22611/

It's dern good wire, not sumthin' Bubba would use to hang up his overhauls.

[gmwillys]

The harness has been in use for upward of 60 years. The rubber coatings have dried out to the point that they are cracking apart every time it is handled. I second Mr. Beard's statement. Electrical problems from old harnesses isn't a case of if problems occur, but how often, and how bad. Much like your sail boat, time spent now will give you years of trouble free operation in return.

[pelago]

UPDATE! Upon further investigation, i disassembled the section of the harness at the joint up to the left rear tail light. Multiple coatings of ??? lots of layers, removed all the layers and bent the wire (pretty sharp bend) to closely look at it, and found that surprisingly when i actually got to the cable itself it appeared to be better than i initially thought. Not sure what this coating is but it seems to be some kind of wrap, that is completely brittle, crumbles, and covers the whole cable. had some breaks in the wire in three spots (repaired them, and found that the actual bare wire appears to initially have been tinned) Was surprised at that, did not know that tinned wire was used in the 40's-50's. but repair went well and i used shrink tubing over the repair. Modified plan, eliminate all the (wrap or whatever it is) from the rest of the harness and do another inspection. Maybe i will get lucky and find that i can repair the harness without having to completely rebuild. Comment about cracked wire is certainly viable and will influence the decision. Now with the wire layed out on plywood, I can get couple of spools of wire and 'BUILD MY OWN HARNESS' ends are available and it is only time and wait til you year this.. THE US MARINE CORPS sent me to all kinds of electronic schools and i retired as a senior electronic tech, held many MOS's in the Corps and your tax dollars paid for it all, so i feel i am completely capable of doing this... and further more this board is a wealth of information the wire info is great!!! thanks to all, and i hope that you guys that are reading this are making a list of resources off all these posts

and although what i am doing now will pay off in the end, damnit i wanna hear this sucker start........ got fatigued with repetitive stuff (exposing what seems like a million feet of wire a inch at a time, spent some time on oil pressure sending unit. the steel tubing was filled with dried oil (surprise) but that is cleaned and the oil pressure unit checked out. connected a ohm meter and got meter movement with the air compressor putting air into the tube. does that means it works okay, not sure all i can say is air pressure made the ohm meter analog (old school simpson 360, best meter made) move. and since this thing is nothing more than a variable resistor that moves a meter called oil pressure who knows (shadow??)


2263

[gmwillys]

That there is tax money well spent. I commend you for taking the time to do your own repairs. You will truly have something to be proud of when you are finished.

The M38A1 that I worked on was an Army issued Jeep. It was not undercoated at all, except for three thick layers of olive. If I'm correct, the Marines specked out that the Jeep was to be undercoated from the factory, then often times undercoated again at the motor pool before being handed off to the unit. Between the undercoating and the addition to the sling clevis rear cross member and front bumper, that was to be the only noticeable difference between the two branch vehicles.

[pelago]

did not know that, even though i drove the damn things.. never drove one with a 50cal though several with m60's. mine has many coats of old style under coating, and that probably is on the wire also. Yeah am old school, i try to fix things, just have heartburn when it is not "fixable" I know with the harness lots and lots of ends to be replaced and at 2.50 a pop, going to see if i can find in packs of at least ten, need all three female male and the light type. the oil pressure guage and the temp guage have the old type of light type connector, might have to steal one, or two

[gmwillys]

Your oil pressure sending unit will most likely work just fine, after getting all the crud out of it. I believe my tach and dwell meter is a Simpson. Bought it at a consignment auction for next to nothing, with the original case. If I remember correctly, it has specs for every engine brand made through the late fifties. I'll have to get it out of the tool box and look at it to check my memory. When I started working on heavy equipment, (farm and industrial) we would rebuild a starter, generator, water pumps, etc. all in house. It was a Ford tractor dealer, and we kept everything in stock. Parts and labor for the average starter was around $45. I learned a lot of dealing with the farmers, because their cost margins were so tight. They didn't bring equipment in for run of the mill issues, mostly heavy repair. If it wasn't for new equipment and construction company work, we wouldn't be much more than a starter rebuild shop.

[LarrBeard]

M13486 wire #16 AWG is 19 conductors of #32 tin coated, soft drawn and annealed copper. Very flexible and, even if the jacket and insulation crack - resistant to corrosion. #14 AWG is 19 conductors of #30 or #31.

The Simpson 360 is, indeed, the best single piece of electronic test equipment made. Once upon a time (or, Hey , this ain't no ...) I discovered that if you set a Simpson 360 to AC Volts (2.5-volt range, no leads) and sit it about a foot from the short antenna of a PRC-25 or PRC-77, you can make a quick and dirty GOOD/DEAD determination of a transmitter. I started with one in vocational electronics in high school and I still use one almost weekly in the shop.

The original oil sender on the '48 was the bi-metal thermostat type. Oil pressure warped a diaphragm and held the points closed longer - pushing the bi-metal in the oil gauge higher as the bi-metal in the gauge heated more. Modern gauges do have a variable resistor that closely mimics the old gauge, but sometimes you need to warp it a bit with a series or shunt resistor.

I agree - if air pressure wiggles it - you've got as live one there. It's easier to calibrate with air than oil - you can calibrate with a tire and a cheater hose! Think about it for a minute and you'll figure out how to do that. Bicycle tires work well for 60 PSI gauges - just don't let the kids catch you...

But, a cheap little Fluke 77 with the beeper is kind of handy for ringing out wire A from Wire B in a harness.

[pelago]

DON'T DO THIS........
I started to do some preliminary body work, to see if i could weld some. was working on a repair spot on tailgate, felt that if i could repair it might save some dollars. I LET THE DAMN CUTTER (4" CIRCULAR HAND HELD CUTTER) get away from me and nailed my left hand but good..... off to navy hosp and they told me i hit the bone and might have to cast it, but it took a bunch of stitches to close it up, was pretty damn deep....... dont be adumbass like i was
2267

[gmwillys]

I strongly recommend these gloves for doing any metal fabrication. They are thin enough that you can pick up a washer off the bench, but tough enough for welding. Money well spent in my opinion.
http://www.mechanix.com/fabricator-welding-gloves?c=Black&s=Medium&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuLzahKC02QIVFp7ACh2SEwMOEAQYAiAB EgKCf_D_BwE

Hope you are doing alright today. A gouge like that stings a bit.

[pelago]

Now ya tell me....................... gonna order a pair, and yeah it throbs, they wanted to cast it but i asked what the criteria for sawed bone is, the said i cut 10% into bone and i said wth, ten percenters get you all the time, but not this one. no cast just stitches. And the work continues (well in a couple of days anyway)

[LarrBeard]

Awhhhh Mannnn ...

Find something easy to do for a while and let it close up before you stress it. Another place for arthritis to sprout.

You know, we old guys can always be an example to the newer guys - even if the example is don't do what we did.

Get well and then get back with it. Hope it heals well.

de WB9UFS ETCS SENDS

[pelago]

hey, was looking at some photos here on this site and saw this, arent those M151 rims?? this talked about earlier and it was said that these rims dont match the original rims as far as depth of rim goes??


2272

[gmwillys]

Before I went to work on machinery, I was given good advice that I keep with me to this day. When starting out working in a shop, find the oldest guy with the most fingers. That's who you want to learn from. $35 dollars may seem a lot for a pair of gloves, but it is worth every penny. Also they sell a line of impact gloves, made especially for doing a lot of work where vibration is a factor. These gloves have gel in the palms and pads of the fingers. I have had a lot of trouble with carpel tunnel from the times I worked in a shop. These gloves don't cure anything, but do they help immensely. My tip for the day, too late. Rest well friend, keep us advised if you need anything.

The M151 rims have a different off set. The independent suspension of the 151's has a wider track width, so they compensated by moving the wheel center to the outside of the rim. When putting the 151 rims on the M38A1, you found out that the center diameter was smaller because of the lack of a hub sticking through the 151 wheel. It is simple enough to grind out the center, but then the tires are inset way too close to the inner rear wheel opening. That reduces the track width on the M38A1 by approximately 6 inches total. All this would be alright for a mall cruiser, but if you ever had to take any evasive maneuvering, the M38 would not be as stable as it should be. The first picture is of the correct M38-38A1 wheels installed. The second is of the mock up frame with the M151 wheel on the right rear. The wheel doesn't fill the wheel well like the third picture of the correct wheel.

[pelago]

[QUOTE=LarrBeard;4456]Awhhhh Mannnn ...

Find something easy to do for a while and let it close up before you stress it. Another place for arthritis to sprout.

You know, we old guys can always be an example to the newer guys - even if the example is don't do what we did.

Get well and then get back with it. Hope it heals well.

de WB9UFS ETCS SENDS[/QUOTE
ar sk


2278 my back yard mosey five element beam on 85 ft tower being worked on, everyone showws antenna in the air but this shows the fold over feature

[gmwillys]

The fold over feature makes life a whole lot simpler.

[51 CJ3]

2278 my back yard mosey five element beam on 85 ft tower being worked on, everyone showws antenna in the air but this shows the fold over feature

Unmarked?? Extremely dangerous for pilots working at low altitude.

[pelago]

no, 100 ft or higher needs light thats both federal and county regs, and at 85' he would be in the trees anyway

[pelago]

frustration day no33

since working on the old girl not in the cards for a few days used this time to look for a 1/4" stud 20 on one end 28 on other or coarse and fine... Where i grew up in chicagoland this would have been a 1/2 hour deal, many places have these. its just a stud. went to every auto parts store, first of all they wanted to know what kind of motor or vehicle. my reply was, a stud is a stud, it does not matter where it lives I need a 1/4" 1" long with 20 thread count one end and 28 thread count the other end. majority answer was UHHHHHHHHHHHH we aint got those................ there are three napa stores here in rural NC went to all three, they did recognize verbally what i wanted, and they answered i think all we have is 5/16th, but they did look, but no studs. went to a hardware/lumber yard that does have #8 bolts hoping that they-might have them in one of the little trays/boxes they usually all have.
it was listed on the top of the one box i opened and sure enough it was listed, but it was ****ING EMPTY. in fact most of the bins were empty, said to the guy 'YOU CANT SELL EM IF YOU AINT GOT EM" Went back to the garage and hand or no hand was gonna do something. took a brand new 5/16 and put in vise and used a die to make one end ever so slowly, turned and back turned with lots of oil it worked so one end is now 1/4" coarse. so far so goot was going to try the other end but felt it might be too much to get off by brute force, so i filled it down some, well more than some, and cut the other end to #28. i did find on the internet for $.79 each with $9.75 shipping


2282

[51 CJ3]

[QUOTE=pelago;4466]no, 100 ft or higher needs light thats both federal and county regs, and at 85' he would be in the trees anyway[quote]

I know what the rules are. It took quite a while but we finally forced the power companies to mark their met towers. They were intentionally building them 2 feet short so they wouldn’t have to mark them. Serval pilots died because of their murderous attitude. As a pilot, I can tell you for a fact if the tower sticks up 2 feet above the tress, it is dangerous. There is a collection of 5(?) north of the runway at Hannibal, MO that I have to fly around because they are a little taller than the trees. They are hard to spot and I nearly hit them the first time I flew out of there. The most damage I ever done to an airplane was when I flew through a dead limb sticking out above the leaves. I knocked the leading edge of the wing back to the spar and I never saw it. Dead limbs are easier to spot than a tower.

[gmwillys]

Growing up in central IL, the little town where my Grand parents lived had a International dealer/hardware store. The last time I was in there, a few years back, they still had the wooden drawers filled with everything one would ever need. The drawers went up nearly as high as the 12' ceiling, and there were library ladders on rails that you could climb up on to look into the drawers. Some of the bins were labeled with hardware for bunk board wagon axle bolts, (square headed bolts from at least the 1880's) The building was constructed in 1880, and had been a hardware store since. It's frustrating to go and search for hardware, seals, and bearings these days. The parts houses are filled with kids that have never heard of leaded gas, (try asking for lead substitute, if you really want to blow their minds). No matter what it was that I was needing, I could find a place that had whatever it was in stock, within an hour. Take a mangled wheel bearing, as long as a measurement could be taken or the axle size was taken, they could set you up with a good bearing at a great price. Same way with the driveline. There was a shop that could build you a new drive shaft, and balance it in a couple of hours, cheap. The last one I had trimmed down was around $40.

[51 CJ3]

I blew a u-joint passing through Nebraska while on leave about 20 years ago. I was in a ‘69 Bronco and was told the u-joint was no longer available by several parts houses but it was nothing to find a shop to replace the yolks to fit a common size. Today I have a hard time finding a shop to build an exhaust system.

[gmwillys]

That is the key thing wrong with a disposable society. When something wears out, toss it out and buy a new one.

[pelago]

[QUOTE=pelago;4466]no, 100 ft or higher needs light thats both federal and county regs, and at 85' he would be in the trees anyway[quote]

I know what the rules are. It took quite a while but we finally forced the power companies to mark their met towers. They were intentionally building them 2 feet short so they wouldn’t have to mark them. Serval pilots died because of their murderous attitude. As a pilot, I can tell you for a fact if the tower sticks up 2 feet above the tress, it is dangerous. There is a collection of 5(?) north of the runway at Hannibal, MO that I have to fly around because they are a little taller than the trees. They are hard to spot and I nearly hit them the first time I flew out of there. The most damage I ever done to an airplane was when I flew through a dead limb sticking out above the leaves. I knocked the leading edge of the wing back to the spar and I never saw it. Dead limbs are easier to spot than a tower.
maybe so, however in my back yard and two of neighbors i have to look up at the trees when i am at the top of my tower, many pine trees in excess of 100ft in my area. lowest thing i ever saw was a drone when my back yard pool was full of strippers and all of em naked out in the sun.. the drone kinda stayed there and i bet the guys at camp lejeune had a eyefull. i had to leave, was getting kind of hard to take ...... left them there and went to my boat, put some pictures here but would probably violate a rule or two

[51 CJ3]

Sorry about coming on so strong about it. As you can tell, it is a topic that is near and dear to me. People don’t realize things that are easily spotted from the ground with the sky as a background are nearly invisible from the other direction. That’s part of the reason it took so much effort to get the new regs passed but, I don’t think it was enough.

Don’t get me started on the drones.

[gmwillys]

I have a feeling that Camp Lejeune has your coordinates marked on their maps. Chesty would be proud!

[pelago]

well here is a tame picture of some of my lady friends it might pass scrutiny the two on my right are grand national pole champs and are really quite good

2288

[pelago]

new topic.....
anticipating a fuel pump soon, here is my "do and check before starting up list" what did i miss
fabricate some needed vent lines
install 24 vdc line to dist
fabricate fuel line
check tightness of generator, check all hoses
check motor mount bolts, check trans to bell housing bolts, check bell housing bolts to engine,
check all fluids, (drained the transmission and 4wd, pretty dark) need to fill with 90wt gear lube

also came across this...
http://oldjeepcarbs.com/thread/66/final-design-l134

[gmwillys]

Looks like you have everything covered. Take a moment and check the points to ensure that the gap is correct, and the contacts are clean. Most often the head aches of an initial start are caused by spark issues. Information contained within old jeep carbs website is second to none. He is an authority on these carbs, and offers fuel system rebuilds, at a reasonable price.

[pelago]

thanks, also did something, I was suspect of the PCV and took it apart. after seeing the diagram on the web page for carbs, found that the valve was complete, but completely inoperable due to dried oil and whatever. soaked it in some carb cleaner and cleaned the inside with a .45cal bore brush, and then polished the actual moving valve, re assembled and re installed a fully functional PCV. All of the modern ones are throw away plastic, but since this is all metal it should function for another 50 years or so (since i have two complete engines i took the other one off and cleaned this one also)

[gmwillys]

I agree. As long as the spring is intact, you should have no problems. It is probably the most overlooked item on an engine rebuild/resurrection. I'm as guilty as the next, because I need to pull the one off the 2A, and inspect. I don't think twice about pulling the side cover, and adjusting the valves, but don't bother pulling the PCV. I'm sure that it is clogged up with oil, because at one time in its life, it had a cracked piston.

[pelago]

BTW, thanks for reminding me about points and ignition, i pulled the cap and found a cracked cap, and then the plate that the hardware is on did not look right. I salvaged both items from the spare engine and cleaned and set points to 0.020, and coil checks out good with ohmmeter. already had cleaned and checked spark plugs. Think the old girl is ready to rock and roll as soon as i get a fuel pump (COME ON MIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) PLUS i have just plain ran out of busy work. want to get this running and put some wheels on it and roll it out to driveway put a good tarp on it and start on the body.

[LarrBeard]

and coil checks out good

Can you hook a wire to the top of the coil and cycle the points to get a spark?!

[pelago]

have never done that?? but coil ohmed out good?

HEY IT WORKED!! WENT OUT AND PUT 24VDC ON THE COIL HOT SIDE AND ENGAGED STARTER AND GOT SPARK!!!! HOT DAMN

[gmwillys]

Good deal. You'll be running in no time after you get the fuel pump.

[LarrBeard]

A. How is the hand doing?

B. When we were chasing the mystery problems with the '48, we went through several coils trying out theories as to why it was refusing to run. Two (?) of them threw a yellow, lazy spark - not a blue hot spark.

I was curious. They ohm-metered out OK (Simpson 260 of course). But, I went a bit further and checked them out on the bench and looked at the secondary voltage with an oscilloscope. As compared to a good coil, the secondary waveform on the ones with the yellow lazy spark didn't "ring" anywhere as well as the good ones.

I didn't go any deeper, but I suspect that either these coils had some internal flashover (high voltage breakdown) or some shorted turns that were loading things down.

If you have a good hot spark through the points and out the top of the coil - you have eliminated several things that might get in your way on Start Day.

Now, if you just can't wait for Mike to get you a fuel pump, you could always hang a can of fuel like an IV bag and let it feed into the carb by gravity like the Model T . It isn't like you have to feed an injector.

Just don't spill the gas and burn down the garage.......

[gmwillys]

An oscilloscope is the best tool to use, but most shops have no idea what one is. We had an issue with an output speed sensor on a power pack. The tech, who is well seasoned on Volvos cars, played with it for a week, (our tax payer dollars at work). He was getting a signal from the sensor, and the ohms were rising and dropping as it should as the out put shaft was turned slowly. The truck was ground hopped from one vehicle to another, and the problem did stay with the power pack from one vehicle to the other. The ground hop was reversed and the speedometer started working off the other truck's pack. I came involved after that point, and suggested that we find a scope to check out the wave pattern off of the out put speed sensor. After blowing off years of dust off the scope, we plugged it in. The wave pattern was square, but the top left corner had fuzz to it. Speed sensor had trash stuck to it, and the wave pattern showed it. Pulled the pack, cleaned off the sensor, ground hopped on the skid, all was right with the world again.

An IV source of fuel would work, as long as you fab up a cover for the fuel pump mount. Don't want to have oil slobbering all over the floor.

[pelago]

you could always hang a can of fuel like an IV bag think i will have my son stand there with a gallon of gas and feed the carb........
just so happens i have two scopes, a 10mhz and a 500 mhz, both are dual trace (got my training at Gov Exp courtesy Marine Corps)

[pelago]

HAVE COMPLETELY RAN OUT OF BUSY WORK ON THE FRAME AND ENGINE. JUST WAITING FOR PARTS, FUEL PUMP, MASTER CYLINDER AND 24VDC CONNECTOR TO DISTRIBUTOR. DO HAVE A QUESTION
fuel from fuel pump to carb, flex hose or steel pipe, probably can use a piece of hose with connectors but photos are all of steel? BUT I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BEND STEEL PIPE WITHOUT GORPING IT UP. MAKE SOME KIND OF JIG?? LIKE CONDUIT SOME KIND OF BENDER? AND THEN I HAVE TO GET A FLARE KIT TO FLARE THE ENDS, NEVER DONE THAT EITHER, DOES NOT LOOK ALL THAT DIFFICULT, BUT FLARE KIT TOOLS AINT CHEAP AT LEAST WHAT I HAVE SEEN...................
SUCH IS LIFE??

IN CASE ANYONE IS WONDERING, AM NOT YELLING AS THE COMPUTER PEOPLE SAY BUT MY TIRED *** EYES NEED THIS BIG PRINT TO SEE WHAT IN THE HELL I AM WRITING

[51 CJ3]

Something like this works well for small tubing:
http://m.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/470-fh.php?clickkey=6468

[51 CJ3]

Great, got a link to a tube bender waiting on moderator approval. I have a smaller lever type bender that does 3 different diameter tubes. One like it should work well for you.

[51 CJ3]

Go to the Harbor Freight web page and search for “3755”. That’s the item number for one similar to what I use.

[gmwillys]

I concur with 51 CJ3 on the tubing bender. I have one similar to that one shown, and it does work well for tight radius work. An old wire coat hanger or filler rod works well to form a template to work out the routing. A lot easier to bend up a filler rod, then translate it to the tubing, than just eyeballing the tube on how you need it bent.

The harbor freight link for the bender;

https://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-bender-3755.html

A cheap flare kit;

https://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-tube-flaring-kit-5969.html

Usually the local auto parts house has a loan a tool program that may have a flaring kit that you can use. Auto Zone claims to have a free loan program, just open the case to ensure all the pieces are there. Flaring is pretty simple when you get down to it. Just remember to put the threaded connector on the correct way before you flare the tube.

[pelago]

wow, pretty cheap too... what size tubing, have not bought this stuff in over 50 yrs, but think that i will like steel tubing better than rubber hose, and got a ton of tubing to get and bend for all the other stuff on the vent line. cool. got a harbor freight place a few miles away. and called Mike at Kaiser, my fuel pump time limit of what they told me was yesterday they have had it 4 wks now..................anxious. found some busy work, putting headlight framework in the front grill, painted the inside of the "light pocket" with olive so i can start to assemble the thing2294

[gmwillys]

Going from memory, I believe it is 5/16" fuel line from the tank to a rubber fuel hose, before going to the fuel pump. 1/4" from the fuel pump to the carb. One of the local auto parts houses has brake lines that are already coated in an olive colored coating. They look good after they are installed. Looks like they belong. NAPA will be your best source for any special fittings and adapters, if needed.

[LarrBeard]

Other thoughts.

When you bend tubing, if you can work a couple of coat hangers around the bend to support the bend, it will reduce the chance of kinking something.

Make sure fittings are English inches, not metric.

Get Auto Zone veteran discount - it pays most sales taxes.

[LarrBeard]

Fitting oil, vacuum and fuel lines can be an exasperating job, but if it gets done well it really makes a difference between a Jeep that runs and one that looks really good.

There are places where we decided that splicing a line was a lot easier that trying to run one single line from point A to point B. In some places we used flared splices and in others we sleeved and soldered tubing together.

The coiled tubing to the bottom of the oil filter wasn't a good idea at all. Get the flex hose from Mike and save yourself a messy clean-up job.

And, even if they look good - be very wary of old lines. The flares are work hardened and brittle and after a couple of months they tend to split out and start seeping. You might try annealing them - but new lines are probably worth the trouble of working them into place.

[pelago]

THE WORK CONTINUES... Got my master cylinder yesterday, and the 24vdc connector to the distributor. Brake lines complete now, put some brake fluid in and let gravity do most of the work, master cylinder higher than any of the individual cylinders. put the plug on the dist, connected it to ignition switch and 24vdc at the distributor

[pelago]

2301


looking for the outside ring or bezel in the diagram, not having much luck

[gmwillys]

Check out 1/4 ton and military parts.Com. They keep a lot of M38A1 N.O.S. parts on hand, at reasonable prices. I have bought a lot of odd ball parts from them, and have no complaints. You might want to call and see if they have any good used units.

https://quartertonparts.com/

[pelago]

ALSO........
Am not happy with the linkage between brake pedal and master cylinder, seems that the throw is very long before it engages the inside cylinder to strt the brake fluid, all lines are bled.
and am not happy with the clutch seems the cable is so long that the throw out bearing has to have clutch pedal all the way in. got to research this some more

[gmwillys]

Here is some useful information about what folks have run into on their clutch adjustment. The common solution is to shorten the threaded end to allow for proper adjustment.

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/clutch-linkage_topic39519.html

The brake pedal adjustment is typically right on. I don't recall ever having to adjust the push rod when changing a master cylinder. Maybe the rod was shortened by a previous owner for who knows why. I'll look up a measurement after while and post it, for what it should be. Then we can go from there.

Here is a link with video on the brake master cylinder adjustment. 1" of free pedal is the normal adjustment amount.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/master-cylinder-push-rod-fits-48-66-cj-2a-3a-3b-5-6-m38-m38a1

[pelago]

HUZZAAHHHHH. (old school from the Hornblower series) IT STARTED
Did it run like a top, NO, but it will
Did I hear any funny noises NO, thats a good thing
did it smoke, hell yeah it did, all that marvel mystery oil in the cylinders had to get consumed.. but that stopped
I have am sure some carburetor issues, might have to get a case of Corona and a carb kit from Kaiser and take it down the street, just happen to have a young friend that i would consider a master mechanic, he used to mow my hard 30 years ago. seems to flood pretty easy, worse than biblical (checked float and it is all there and looks like it works)
Also have am sure some timing issues, but page 170 from the manual starts that path, dont have the adapter for a timing light, hell dont even have a timing light.
Had one serious oil leak and i searched and searched for it and thought i was oil pan, but no it wasnt that. then i groaned and said crap front seal, but no oil from around the pulley. then after banging my head and banging my left hand (yeah it started bleeding again) So here i was pissed and bleeding and i looked up, coming out of the top of the oil filter.... my nice newly painted oil filter now has a grimy rusty top on it, but dond leak 1130 or so and am going to bed oh yeah, need someone to educate me on the vacuum line to the distributor, ??the vacuum line advances the distributor? or it should idle okay without the line, yes, no? have some serious plumbing to do before, before that is done,,, the main one from pump to the along with the crankcase and the pvc to the intake manifold is done, but the one to the distributor is in dis repair, and according to the manual it is somehow connected to the mainline, but can not figure that on out so far

[pelago]

2324


without the lights makes it look like a insect, had to put the grill on to keep the fan sort of aligned

[gmwillys]

Congratulations. That's a step in the right direction. The oil filters never leak when they are covered in rust and crud. Usually the vacuum advance ties in to the base of the carburetor, in order to get constant vacuum. You can run the engine all you want without the advance hooked up, without issue. As long as your vacuum source is plugged, the engine will run just fine. When you go to crack the throttle, (mid to full) she will stumble without the advance connected. A timing light is nice to set it to speck, but an experienced ear can work just as well. The military did have a timing kit that had all the adapters for timing the 24 volt distributor, (a standard 12 volt timing light will not work) and they do come up for sale from time to time, at a premium price. I know of one kit that was found at a flea market that was bought for $40, but those are few and far between.

[LarrBeard]

Congratulations!!!!

[pelago]

IAW service manual the firing order is 1,3,4,2. not a problem, but when i put that on the distributor nada, went to TDC on the block (finger in the hole method) can not see down the hole whatsoever it appears that the firing order is not as in the manual. possible reasons, 1. oil pump taken out and not replaced correctly, distributor taken out and not put back in correctly. since distribotor needs to be turned clockwise to advance, it appears as if the dist is maxed on adbance going back to basics. will pull number 1 out of hole and again do the compression finger test. while watching the uncovered dist and see what happens. am confident it will run all right.

addendum 1hr later
Went out to the beast and confirmed that the firing order is now different than the manual. took cap off again and held finger over #1 hole and watched the rotor, it compressed where it should be #3. changed over the cap to the actual firing order as it physically is and loosened the dist and tried again. nothing, roved the distributor ever so slowly and nada not one damn thing. Pull dist and back it off one "click" so to speak?? damifiknow it ried to run yesterday but just was not there?? ran sort of for about 3 seconds yesterday

[gmwillys]

First things first, the engine was running a day or so ago? It wasn't running perfect, but was running? What changes were made in between then and now, if any? I ask because you had mentioned that the carb was flooding easily. Just trying to see the whole picture.

If you had compression when the rotor was at the number three firing position, then your distributor is about two to three clicks off. Pull the distributor out, bring number one up on compression, then set the distributor back with the rotor in the close neighborhood to number one. When you move the If you run into an issue with the oil pump being out of sink with the firing order position, that isn't the end of the world. You can place the distributor in to verify the position of the oil pump at TDC, then base your firing order off of that. The oil pump will only allow you two positions to install the distributor, either on, or 180 degrees out. Either way, you can put number one firing position on the cap, wherever you need it to be. The only limitation would be if you are running the waterproof military plug wires. I don't think that there was much slack when installed, so that would be a limiting factor on firing order placement.

[51 CJ3]

It might be a good idea to check your ignition switch. I did a lot to my engine to fix rough running (overhauled carb, tuned up distributor, replaced distributor, plugs and wires) and all I needed was a new switch.

[pelago]

not the switch, am positive because i am feeding the dist right off the pin a of the regulator and that is what goes to the switch.
now here is the bad news.
GOT A STUCK EX VALVE... DAMN DAMN DOUBLE DAMN
3 ISSUES
1. either the oil pump was replaced and not put in right or the dist taken out and not put in right. have to be tdc on #1 to do that, dont think it was done properly. firing order by manual is 1,3,4,2 dist layed out where #1 is top and right corner, this particular dist has the firing order where number 3 is. can deal with that i think (think)
2. stuck valve is a completly new issue, old school was that stuck valves could be cleared by pouring stp down the carb while engine running, actuall have done that twice once on a ford flathead and once on a 56 pontiac. both times it worked. However not so sure this time. valve is stuck open. In years (YEARS) past i have taken heads off old flatheads and done things and replaced the head without changing head gaskets (when you only make 15.00 a week working at a grocery store after school money is tight) and was successful, maybe can do this time also, depends on the head gasket. taking head off not something i planned on doing, but think i have no choice. Then the actual valve think it is rusted tight at this time and that is wht happens when these things are not run. had it been turned over at least thais probably would not have happened.
Taking the head off today as soon as my garage warms up a bit, just went outside and fired up the kero heater for a while, it is 32 in the garage at this time (9 39am). when it is a bit warmer i will pull the head off and take a look see, might, just might, might be able to whack the valve with a mallet and loosen it up, tried to do that from inspection side but was unable to do so. I know from experience with old flatheads that this can be done, (hope so)

[LarrBeard]

A. On the '48, we did have the oil pump 180 out, but if you get the distributor 180 out too ....

Every F and L head fires 1 -3- 4 - 2.

B. We thought we could get away with reusing a head gasket too. Didn't work. Don't plan on leaving a used gasket on permanently - maybe for checking out and fooling around. I have had external leaks as the engine cools down and there is a small leak into #2 that lets the plug foul with coolant a bit and it misses on #2 until things warm up. Pulling the head and replacing the gasket is on the warmer weather list.

C. Did you check fuel pump pressure to carb? I'll bet that new pump runs way more than 2-3 PSI.

You had a plan for getting this back together. Just remember - the plan works until the first time someone smacks you in the nose or the first rounds crack over your head.

[gmwillys]

Give the exhaust valve a good soaking with penetrant. Once you get it freed up, you'll be back in business. Your distributor is 180 degrees out. The oil pump is fine, since you have a fine adjustment to get the timing back in sink by fine tuning the distributor.

I would use a new head gasket. I have reused BB Chrysler head gaskets, and have used high temp silicone as header gaskets. This isn't one of those times to skimp.

[pelago]

MAJOR SETBACK
got the valve freed up and it cleaned up and seemed to work okay, then went to adjust valve. would not adjust. Good friend, who is a master mechanic looked at it and found that the tappet or lifter is stripped??? not adjustable, can not achieve a gap, no matter what we tried, can actualy hold it down and pul the threaded portion out and that aint good. locked the valve open and then worked on it for a while the damn threads are stripped, got to pull the cam out and replace that lifter. after a long discussion it is felt that we can do it without pulling whole engine out, drop oil pan, drop sump, pull oil pump, compress all springs and pull valves, pull front end off, expose gears and timing gears and then pull cam out. after all the lifters are raised up and tied off so that they will not fall out as cam is pulled, (wire ties on each lifter, maybe tape and wire ties, but keep the lifters up, pull cam and then drop the lifters out. Then with each lifter out inspect each one to see that the other three are still good, if not replace all four. My friend mike does not believe that they will be bad because the ihe engine is really in good shape no wear on cylinder walls, no ridge on cylinder wall, and valves are in good shape and
seat well. when ever that valve got stuck, the lifter beat on it and busted the threads. el crapoooooo, boogers, shxxxt, and all the other words that the thing will censor out, but was able to order a head gasket from advance they actually had it in the computer and the photo matched remains of the head gasket..

going to disassemble and then evaluate parts and replace what is bad



2325

[LarrBeard]

Ira;

This is not uncommon with ancient vehicles. Just when you think you're ready to leap ahead, you stub your toe and fall flat on your face.

We thought we had the '48 ready to hit the road - but it would not run. The attached picture is us looking at valves and working our way back into the engine.

The last step was using a dial indicator to find #1 TDC, resetting the oil pump, adjusting mechanical advance on the distributor - then working our way back to an assembled engine. Three carburetors, a new distributor, a head bolt missing under the carb throat then a defective condenser in the new distributor and two more months in the shop - then it ran.

You'll get there.

[pelago]

are there alignment marks on the gear for cam to crank believe my oil pump also not in proper alignment, and the dist has it firing #1 where#3 is, got to reset both dont you love that damn bolt under carb. this manual that i have is your basic org maint, or as we called 2nd echelon, where no one could go inside anything all had to go to depot repair to get into engine... did have a boost, when i pulled timing gear cover was amazed at how clean it was

[gmwillys]

There are marks, but can not recall if the marks are dots or lines.

[pelago]

as i kinda figured the oil pump not in right. made the dist out of whack

damn cant find a mark anywhere, and the gear looks like its fiber??

2334

[LarrBeard]

Yeah, the gear is fiber, but it's just about eternal - and a lot quieter than a metal gear would be. I think we dial indicatored #1 because we couldn't find a mark either.

You have the head off. Pull the oil pump. The slot in the oil pump shaft is off center. Turn the engine over until you get #1 TDC on the compression stroke (not exhaust). Set the distributor to get the rotor pointed at #1 post on the distributor cap (about 4 -5 o'clock) and note just where the long and short side of the slot on the tongue is. Use the distributor shaft to align the oil pump - don't let the pump drive where the distributor points, make the distributor tell the pump.

Two guys make this job easier...

I just went out and opened the hood on the '48 (with the 5? F-head) to look at just where wires went. On this engine, the wire to #1 is at about 4 or 5 o'clock on the distributor cap.

Good luck and watch out for doing more damage to that hand.

[pelago]

2335



uh oh my manual says the one in photo top right is number 1
have to make it so that the lifters do not fall out or interfere with the pulling of cam, drop oil pan, pull cam, get bad lifter out and order parts. there is a thick gasket, collar made out of fiber under the dist cap mounting right where shaftt goes in to the dist, can not find it, mine is in two pieces. does the oil sump have do come out??

[LarrBeard]

No, oil sump stays out of the way.

Uh -oh myself. My civilian distributor has the little black plastic cap. You've got the MIL-SPEC one. I'm talking when I should be looking and listening.

Sorry 'bout that...

[pelago]

Sorry 'bout that... scared me, thought oh now what have i screwed up,

[pelago]

got to find that little gasket that goes in a recess at the bottom of the distributor and the top of the shaft the one i have is in bad shape



2337

[LarrBeard]

I was thinking about the oil pump/distributor thing this morning on the way to church. Getting the oil pump drive gear to fit the camshaft drive gear on the exact tooth is one of those hold your tongue right jobs, but if I recall correctly, +/- one tooth will adjust out by mechanical rotation of the distributor - at least on the civilian distributor.

Is there a gasket that covers the whole flange under the distributor? If it's just flat, make one.

If you need one for the recess, would an o-ring do?

There isn't that much oil splashing up there - I suspect the gasket was to keep water out when you went amphibious

[pelago]

pretty precise circle gasket 1" or so, maybe a little bigger. 3/16thick maybe for some reason my damm camera on phone stopped sending pictures or i would post one

[pelago]

HERE IS MY PLAN!!
FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE IT AND OR TEAR IT APART
GIVEN aint gonna run right with a defective lifter, needs to be replaced
do not want to pull the whole engine out of the jeep, after quite a lengthy conversation with a neighbor who has been in the mechanics trade for quite a while and his father before him.
1. hold the four valves up with custom pieces of 3/8 cut out plywood (don't want metal to metal, wood gives)
2. use plastic wire ties to hold all 8 lifters up high (have a test going on now to see if one falls after super tight wire tie holding it up) four hours so far so good
3. remove front gear, (created a timing reference mark for tdc #1 on two gears)
4. pan removed distributor and oil pump out, and pull the cam, from the bottom up replace lifter and tie it off with wire tie
5. replace lifter
6. put cam back in, and then relax wire ties, spring compressor and remove valve, has some scratches on it, that i made trying to cheat it down
7. adjust lifters one at a time
8. replace front gears and insure proper alignment of #1tdc, install oil pump in correct alignment with the slot on bottom and also distributor so it points to #1
9. new front seal (why not, cheap but old one looks brand new)
10. new gaskets
fire the old beast up

[gmwillys]

I agree with your plan. I believe you need to inspect the valve guides to ensure that there is not any residual rust/metal stuck in the guide itself. A little time spent now, will prevent a head ache further down the road.

It seems that replacement cam gears do not have timing marks, from what I've read. The following link has information on to where the marks need to be. The marks can be verified by also checking the flywheel timing marks. Those marks are visible through the inspection hole under the starter, looking toward the rear, at the flywheel.


http://farmjeep.com/projects/ole-blue/cj3a-part18.html

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/timing-gears_topic38766.html

You had asked about head light bezels. Peter DeBella has complete light assemblies, headlight, bucket, bezel. They may be able to help you out with your distributor gasket. I bet you could make one for next to nothing.

http://www.debellajeepparts.com/m38premier.htm

[pelago]

2341

i dont see any guides in there,,,, the valve, seat, lifter (in two parts) and spring set up??

[gmwillys]

The diagram is with the head drawing. Just like the mil speck drawings we use today, not everything is in the same drawing. Sometimes it is like hunting for snipes.



https://www.kaiserwillys.com/diagram/m38a1-diagrams/engine-diagrams-willys-m38a1/4-134-f-engine-view-2/4-134-f-engine-view-2

[pelago]

strange same valve guide for intake and ex, but the diagram only shows the intake portion. well it is what it is

[gmwillys]

There is two item 13, one exhaust, one intake. Two different part numbers. You may only need the sticking guide, but if your luck is like mine, go ahead and purchase them all.

[pelago]

got the pan off, and all four valves are held up with wooden wedges that way they wont drop thru when cam pulled yeah. new valve, guide, seat, lifter, and gaskets, but for condensation on open valve?? and just sitting there??

[51 CJ3]

I use dehydrator plugs in place of spark plugs in the aircraft engines I pickle. It’s amazing how fast they can turn color on an engine with the exhaust, intake and vent taped shut. Even the cylinders with both valves closed will change color, slower than those installed in cylinders with open valves but they do change. There is a lot of condensation in every engine.

[gmwillys]

We use 10 one pound bags of moisture absorbent when dealing with power packs going into a can for storage. Often, when we get one back from overseas, the packs are full, and inside of the can looks like a rain forest. Often, we have to bar over an engine to push out any moisture that has made its way into the engine. Another problem we run into is when the engines go through the wash process, the folks tend to like to fill the air cleaner full of soapy water. When the water is evacuated, you still have to contend with the rust that is left behind. When the engine is started, the rust and soot that comes from the turbo is tremendous. When we were operating at full deployment in Iraq, the fine sand was the biggest clogger of parts there is. It's like talcum powder.

[pelago]

when i drive around Camp Lejeune i see all of the MT parks and all vehicles out in the rain. not a good thing

[gmwillys]

No it isn't. When the vehicles are parked outside, all the hull plugs must be installed to protect the environment. That's well and fine as long as the vehicles are tarpped. Most often they are not, so the hills fill up with water, and cause us grief. A lot of harnesses and hydraulic lines become damaged by the soup that they are submerged in. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

[pelago]

My neighbor friend is borrowing a old style flathead valve spring retainer tool.,, need to get the valve out because there are apparently 2 types of valves and Mike needs to know what i have. everything is exposed, side plate off, head off, exhaust manifold off, all valves blocked up by 3/8" pieces of plywood wedges (did not want to use metal against metal to hold them up) all of the lifters are locked up as high as i can get them and have wire ties around them so i can pull the cam without them dropping out. might just pull the cam out enough to get #3 ex out, that is the one getting reworked. Advance told me they can get all that i need including gaskets for oil pump, timing cover,. but might have to pay shipping, but if i order 99.99 worth of pieces and parts from mike, no shipping advance told me total for all about 40.00 have not figured up Mikes prices yet
NOW WHEN I PUT IN THE OIL PUMP AND DROP IN THE DISTRIBUTOR I NEED TO HAVE THEM BOTH ALIGNED TO #1 FIRE. THE SLOT IS OFFSET ON THE BOTTOM OF THE DIST, THERE A FOOLPROOF WAY TO DO THIS. GEARS WILL BE SET UP FOR CORRECT TDC, PUT OIL PUMP IN AND TRY THE DIST IF IT ALIGNS TO #1 AM I GOOD??, CAN ONLY GO IN TWO WAYS AND ONE IS 180d OUT??

[gmwillys]

If you have everything set to TDC, then lay out the distributor and oil pump so that the slot will align when installed. When I say lay them out, I am referring to laying them out on the bench and ensure that the distributor is set at #1, then line up the shaft for the oil pump to match the distributor. Double check everything, then install the oil pump. Keep in mind that you will have to start off one to two teeth off, so when the oil pump gear contacts the cam gear, it will mesh, (rotate) into place. At this point, your distributor then can be installed. Should fall right into place from there.

The flat head spring compressors are getting hard to come by, although I have seen a set up on the market that works of the same principal as the flat head compressors. The new spring compressors are designed to compress just the springs on a modern V-8, then uses air pressure applied through a fitting installed in place of the spark plug. The air pressure is enough to keep the valve in place while the keepers are removed. Most the time it is used to replace the valve guide seals on Chevy V-8s.

[LarrBeard]

Good advice on the one or two tooth offset.

[pelago]

Somehow i lost the driver for the internet access card, just today go the PC back, however ordered new set of valves, went with the stainless and the new style retainer clips, seemed that the old retainers just looked worn? and kinda flimsy?? but ordered the kit, new gaskets and new front seals, and of course the new lifter. supposed to be here monday. like the free shipping that kaiser does for orders of 100.00 or more

[LarrBeard]

We hadn't heard from you in a while and were wondering if you managed to bung yourself up somehow. Good to hear from you.

Yeah, while you are in the neighborhood on top of the engine, you might as well fix everything that you see that you don't like. You could probably have gotten by with the old valves, but while you're in there - this is the easiest time to do it. Same with retainers, and just one lifter?

Good luck!

[gmwillys]

Glad to have you back with us. I too was concerned that you got winged again.

Something you may think about. While you have the head off, and you have ordered the stainless valves, is installing hardened valve seats. Then you will be free to run unleaded fuel. Finding lead substitute is getting hard to come by. The parts houses around here have never heard of it..... Most of the counter jockeys are Y2k babies, so no surprise there.

[pelago]

go the seats....

[pelago]

got notice that pieces and parts to be here monday, and since putting in hardened seats is it true that can burn unleaded okay, plan on using 93 alcohol free to save any rubber gaskets that can be crapped out by that stuff. oh yeah, had a friend measure the cylinders with a guage that he ran down each one and he said, hell these aint even broken in yet....

[pelago]

https://www.ebay.com/i/271538485749

comments??

[LarrBeard]

https://www.ebay.com/i/271538485749

comments??

Do you have any reason to think that the worm is worn? I have replaced the sector (
the ears that rode in the worm were badly worn), but the worm was in good shape. You have two vehicles, you probably already have at least one good one.

I'd hold off till you tear down the steering box and see what shape things are in.

[gmwillys]

Unleaded fuel doesn't have the cushioning effect that leaded fuel does. The lead would soften the contact between the valve seat and the valve. The hardened seats and stainless valves provide a longer lasting engine. With that being said, if you are not going to drive your rig everyday, and will not be running the engine at the higher end of the RPM range, then you could get away with a lead substitute. I run the non alcohol unleaded fuel in my CJ2A, with the lead substitute, for the time being, but when the engine is ready for a rebuild, I will be adding the hardened seats to the block.



I agree with LarrBeard. The ears on the sector shaft are the first to go. This is what causes the wandering steering. There is an adjustment that you could try first that may help, and determine whether your worm gear is worn or not. There is an stud with a jam nut on the frame side of the steering box. Loosen the jam nut and turn the stud clockwise, until it bottoms out. Back off the stud an 1/8 of a turn , (or a slight drag is felt when the steering wheel is turned) and tighten the jam nut while holding the stud. When the preload is set with the wheels straight, turn the wheel to full left, then right. If the steering is tightens up at the extreme angles more than being straight, then you have a worn worm gear, because the center position is worn more than the left and right positions. I have performed this on several Ross gear boxes, and as long as the steering components down stream are tight, it will work well. I am assuming that you are wanting to take care of the free play in the steering wheel, and this will help.

http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=144791

Tires make a difference also. Bias plies will want to follow every groove in the road. Non directional tires are not as bad for this, but are terrible in the rain, on pavement.

[LarrBeard]

The '48 had always steering issues, even after I replaced the sector and worm 'way back in 1966 or so. In the restoration, we got a whole steering and gear shift assembly from the Toledo guy. Things were not worn, but just because I had a history with the vehicle, I put a Tite Steer lock device on the steering box. That gadget uses a spring to hold a ball against the sector.

It has driven very nicely since then - better than it ever did in the olden days. A full steering rebuild probably helped a lot too. I can't claim which fix did what (probably all of them contributed a little)..

And, yes, bias ply tires do make life interesting at times. There is one section of road near me that makes me wonder if I'm going to visit the corn field, but the groove stops before we get to the corn - or beans - or wheat - depending on the year.

One more comment. The Ross gear box should be filled with oil, same as differential. Most have developed leaks at the sector shaft seal and folks have added a Zerk and filled with grease. This doesn't lubricate all of the bearings up on the shaft.

[pelago]

Do you have any reason to think that the worm is worn? I have replaced the sector (
the ears that rode in the worm were badly worn), but the worm was in good shape. You have two vehicles, you probably already have at least one good one.

I'd hold off till you tear down the steering box and see what shape things are in.

the end where the steering wheel goes in is severly damaged, need new shaft, somehow the threads are destroyed seems to be taking off the nut using a wheel puller expanded the entire thread area and no way can a nut go on or off, just shot., and have two boxes

waiting for mr postman with new pieces and parts

[gmwillys]

Spent too much time thinking about the output side of the steering shaft, didn't think at all about the input end.

The folks at QTM sell good quality items. I purchase a fair amount of items from them for the M38A1 and the M151A2 that have been here. No complaints at all.

[LarrBeard]

OK - NOW we understand.

Yeah, it looks like a good deal, especially NOS - no threads boogered or galled up.

[pelago]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOQFBOVEZ6Q

I HATE THIS GUY>>>> But it do look nice

[gmwillys]

It does look nice, but it has a bad miss to the engine. Sounds like a good tune up, plug and wires, would do it some good. The oil pressure is low for as cool as it was running.

[LarrBeard]

Syracuse, IN is about an hour or so west of me, so this guy is "local".

I agree, I noticed the miss, the low oil pressure (either low pressure or inoperative gauge) and I just don't like to rev them up that hard under no load.

I didn't see a radio harness either.

The metal work looks nice - a little character to the floor under the mat, but you get that.

Now that we've groused, all-in-all, a nice vehicle. But, Ira - yours will have more character, and you'll probably keep it.

[pelago]

wll, lets say i just dislike him intently..................sob does look nice, no ripples on the sides some on hood but still body looked great, yeah wondered about oil pressure

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=video+how+do+you+lap+valves+on+134f+jeep+engine# id=3&vid=2bba3ae2b0c876fc226238ad093e2bda&action=view

going to do this also

[gmwillys]

The body work is presentable. It does have some character, and would be a descent show/driver vehicle. The hood could have used a little extra attention. I just am not comfortable with the oil pressure. Whether it be a faulty gauge or a worn pump, I would want to resolve it before putting it up for sale. I am confident that your A1 will be a top shelf representation. Your attention to detail, and the fact that you are taking care of any deficiency that come up will pay off in the long run. Lesser restorers will be jealous of your work.

[pelago]

every resoration vehicle i have seen, (dont want to make it sound like i have seen hundreds, because i have not) all started with the frame. in that same video collection there is a "5 MINUTE" presentation of a restoration project. And they went to the frame and blasted it to white, just as i did. found some areas that needed attention and welded new steel there., but they were pretty minimal. every single item on this job has been sand blasted and primed, double primed and some have base coat of OLIVE drap **** green. all of the old cars i have seen, 20's 30's so forth all started from the frame up. I am hoping to actually have a museum grade restoration with a great running motor. My old school mechanic called me last night and said he found his lap tool and will be here saturday to do the valves. after watching some of the videos this did not seem to be a major operation, but before i gorp something up i want my instructor there.. think the old girl will be purring by sunday night (well not quite purring only muffler i have on it is 36" glass pack, have not bought exh system yet)

[gmwillys]

Lapping valves is fairly easy when you see what you want to happen, happen. It's good to have a seasoned eye showing you what to do. Good lapping compound, and a good suction cup dowel rod make life easier.
You have done everything right, and you will be happy with your results.

[pelago]

2470
AM REALLY PUMPED.... new valves, lifters, all lined up all now adjusted to clearance. Engine is now back together, all internal wise. will hang stuff on it tomorrow and then start it up

turned out that lapping the valves probably easiest thing i heve did they all have good seal

[LarrBeard]

2470
AM REALLY PUMPED.... new valves, lifters, all lined up all now adjusted to clearance. Engine is now back together, all internal wise. will hang stuff on it tomorrow and then start it up

turned out that lapping the valves probably easiest thing i heve did they all have good seal

With the suction cup and compound on a dowel, just spin them until you get a nice, even bright ring on the valve and seat. Simple and elegant!

Time to restart.

[gmwillys]

Everything looks good. The distributor is at the right position for the timing to be close. Good luck!

[pelago]

we were quite carefull to be tdc #1 then oil pump shallow side down and dist on #1 and it dropped right in, still hanging stuff and getting close to turning key to speak wonder if this is worth it. kinda pricey. but have the original plugs, time to get creative
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-timing-adapter-fits-50-64-m38-m38a1

[LarrBeard]

Just for timing purposes, could you substitute an unshielded wire for the #1 plug?

I suspect that if you get it close enough to start, you can time it by ear. If it's so far off it won't start - this gadget wouldn't help anyway - but then I've never had to work with the shielded RFI ignitions.

We're rootin' for you!

[pelago]

got no fire? trouble shooting discpvered 24vdc at input of dist, but no voltage at + side of coil? broken wire from connector to + side, replaced wire, still no fire, bot all voltages are good at coil?

[51 CJ3]

No fire or no spark? I have better luck watching a plug for spark than trying to short a lead with a screw driver. I have also removed the distributor cap and cranked the engine while watching for spark across the points attempting to isolate a problem.

[pelago]

me too, took plug out and aligator clipped it to ground and put in dark place zippoo, did find the wire from outside the distributor to the + side of the coil, bad and so i sez to myself there is the culprit, took distributor out dis assembled and replaced the new wire with16 gauge marine grade tinned wire, put it together and was confident that that was the problem, now i had the correct voltages on the coil, but still no fire.....................damn

[gmwillys]

Touch up the points with some fine sand paper, or points file. From there, check the rotor for proper clearance to the cap. Touch up the tip of the rotor, contacts of the cap, and the rotor button on top with the fine sand paper. The problem is most likely going to be something trivial, because the engine ran before you tore it down a month or so ago.

[pelago]

" The problem is most likely going to be something trivial,"...............That is what i was thinkng, was so very surprised that it did not fire up, and yeah, was disappointed. Yesterday just shut the garage and went inside, kinda pissed. But wth. Happen to have some tiny files and one of them is a file that is paper thin. will do just that after some coffee. Kinda hard to check out a capacitor. gonna read either short or open,,, short means no good for sure, But since it will pass the effects of small signals, and happen to have one of the older Heath kit test labs that has ability to produce signals up to 2K, just might try that????????????? the wires are good, sort of beat up in places shielding wise, but they all were good, easy enough to do the simpson 360 to them.(THIS IS THE METER I WAS TRAINED ON BACK IN THE 60'S AND THERE AINT NO DIGITAL METER ALIVE THAT CAN TOUCH IT AS FAR AS TUNING A CKT AND LOOKING FOR A DIP)

2471

gonna clean all he contact areas and then i am gonna drill instructor its ***, choke the thing and ask questions each time i squeeze its adams apple

[gmwillys]

Usually a combination of choice words always seems to help. Just have to figure out the right configuration.

The points on the 350 sbc would need to be filed every time I went to move it, (about every 6 months). I think you are close to making noise.

[pelago]

Went out to garage, said all right you scum sucking toad piece of whale shxt on the bottom of the ocean, you are lower than whale crap, you run or your next life will be $1.98 razor blades.

It started.....................dont run too good, but then again the points are probably older than my daughter, and the plugs the same way and it has a patched up set of spark wires. But it ran
1. LEAK AT EXH MANIFOLD AT #4, BUT THIS IS WEIRD MANIFOLD, ONLY ONE STUD USED AT #1 AND #4, NOT CRAZY ABOUT THAT, HAVE STUDS BUT MANIFOLD NOT SET UP FOR THAT?????????????
2. SPARK PLUG WIRES 260.00 OUCH
4. NEED PLUGS AND POINTS AND TUNE UP STUFF, RAN IT FOR 1/2 HOUR WATER FLOWING WELL, NOT HOT AT ALL. OIL PRESSURE IS AT 35LBS
5. NO LEAKS AT ALL, NO OIL, NO WATER

[LarrBeard]

Well, sometimes it just needs to be spoken to!

You probably don't need this now, but - here is a rough condenser check with a Simpson 260:

A. Simpson to R x 10K range.

B. Short leans on condenser to discharge it.

C. Connect Simpson across condenser.

D. A good condenser (approximately .22 uF/450-volts) will kick the needle about 5% up-scale on the Simpson as the condenser charges. No tic of the needle - condenser is open. This does not check for insulation breakdown. (Radios use capacitors - ignitions use condensers; Harumph).

E. Leakage should be 1.5 meg-ohms or greater. Less than that - coil won't ring enough to give you a good spark.

[gmwillys]

The exhaust manifolds could have used an extra fastener(s) on cylinder 1 and 4. With the center three, I suppose the engineers thought that was enough. They had to make room for the intake manifold. Once they do seal, they stay sealed rather well. The design didn't change until the seventies, when they went away from the 134 c.i. altogether.

LarrBeard,

Now you have me on the look out for a Simpson 260. Good tip for checking condensers. Often an overlooked part of the ignition system. Thank you Sir.

[pelago]

A simpson meter is one of the finest meters ever made, this was the standard issue to every tech in the Marine Corps and on every tech bench i ever saw. i bought one years ago and got the heavy travel case, (protected it) to go with it. This is the meter i was trained with and one i only use, yeah digitals are nice, but try to tune a circuit and look for a dip with a digital, just can not do it, but with a simpson its right there in front of you. SUPERB METE

[pelago]

YEAH, NEED TO WORK ON THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD. maybe take it somewhere and make sure it is perfectly flat? mill it some maybe, do have another motor, and maybe swap out, double gasket it? dont know.
My plan originally was to get motor running and then pull the frame and all out of garage and start on the body, but might want to modify it some, new plugs, tune up including distributor cap and new plugs. Carb definitely needs some work, leaks and is not running right. My friend who helped me on the engine had a garage the was lost due to eminent domain and a new road where is garage was (Doc Holiday Auto Repair started by his father in the 50's) he will do the carb rebuild. and got two carbs for parts and pieces. $260.00 bucks for new plug wires is kinda steep that money could go a long way towards body repair, but??? there a cheaper substitute for temporary fix and get the correct ones a bit later?? Then the exhaust system, right now there is a bullcrap pipe attached to manifold and a small glass pack attached to the end. at this time putting on the correct exhaust a lot easier that doing it laying on my back under the darn thing. so that might be a advisable thing to do..

[pelago]

got a video how do you post it??

[gmwillys]

I would take a straight edge to both the manifold, and the head, (tough to do with the intake on) to see what or if there is a low spot. If you have a low spot on the exhaust, then you can either have the manifold tried up, or purchase a thick header gasket that closely matches the exhaust port. Most likely a Ford header gasket would be a close match. They do make thicker gaskets for tough sealing headers.

As far as the spark plugs and wires, I would clean up the plugs the best you can, (some have used a Sonic brass tumbler to remove carbon), then ohm out the plug wires to see if you have any with high resistance. They are very expensive, and I don't know of anywhere that sells or trades for used ones. I have had success in cleaning the military plugs out in the field, but did have to cut the end of a good Snap On plug socket in order to get the truck running. You can purchase a cheap set of civilian wires, and insert them into the sockets. Be sure that plug ends are secure, so they don't get stuck in the cap or plug.

[pelago]

my thoughts on the manifold, happen to have two of them, might even take a trip to a machine shop and have them milled flat for sure..
to do............
1. rebuild carb
2. tune up points rotor, cap and cond.
3. wires
4. exhaust leak at #4

hidden benefit, seems gen working at with the on/off in the OFF position voltage at source 13.2 volts dc, engine running 28 volts DC cool, engine runs pretty cool of course no load, but still water pump and thermostat doing its thing, and original plan was to run for 30 minutes and reain oil, but oil after 1 hr 30 min total run time is still clear


https://www.facebook.com/ira.r.jones/videos/10215737042168788/

[LarrBeard]

my thoughts on the manifold, happen to have two of them, might even take a trip to a machine shop and have them milled flat for sure
r

Since you have a second manifold, look it over really well for cracks and have a machine shop plane it flat. It would take a lot to warp the block under the manifold footprint.

I had to put a second gasket under the valve side cover on the '48/52 since it had enough warp that it wouldn't seal. Permatex stuck the two together into one.

Sometimes the pieces are as warped and bent as we are.

[pelago]

"I had to put a second gasket under the valve side cover on the '48/52 since it had enough warp that it wouldn't seal. Permatex stuck the two together into one.

Sometimes the pieces are as warped and bent as we are"

sometning in what you are saying about that have some seepage, right in the middle above oil pump, probably hae to double up, but no leaks at all around valve cover, but then again onlyu have maybe 1 1/2 hours run time. dont want to run it any more until the darn thing has the exh licked, will probably hang the new exhaust on it before body goes on

quite happy with the oil pressure 35 lbs, looks good, and the radiator now has steady flow of water when the thermostat opens, and runs pretty cool, but then again no load

dont want to run it very long with the bad exhaust on #4 bad things can happen,,,, but when that is cured, how long do you think it will take for the crap to flush out around the rings, have no idea how long that crud and dried oil been in there. and the thing desperately needs a tune up, but wonder how long it will take to clean itself out?? Oil pretty darn clear now, should have seen all the smoke when it first started up, filled my garage up,,,, had to open all the doors and set up some fans to exhaust it, but it cleared up pretty quick. just hidden crap in the thing. what do think about lucas additive, i used that in my diesel and loved it... 1 qt lucas four quarts oil.... ran it 100 hours then changed it religiosly..

[gmwillys]

It's getting hard to find, but the permatex brown bottle shellac was always a go to for sealing up the valve cover gaskets. Too often the mounting hardware is over torqued, and it deforms the cover to where it is not flat enough to seal against the gasket and block.

Lucas additive is good stuff. I knew a lot of truck drivers and fleets that swore by it.

Speaking of additives, I have personally tried this product, and highly recommend it first for your firearms, then for your vehicles;

http://www.militec-1.com/

The stuff works great on all firearms, when applied per the directions. I tested it out on my muzzleloader, and now it takes just a total of two patches to clean and seal. It does work very well in my Springfield 40 cal. as well. I have used it in air compressors and on my big block Chrysler derby cars through the years, and have been impressed with the results.

[LarrBeard]

I don't think you were at all surprised with the smoke when it finally fired up. You had lubricated everything very well early on when you were turning the engine over to get it loosened up and that oil had to go somewhere once it started.

You are not breaking in a new engine, so you'll not get the micro particles that come from rings seating against cylinder walls and rod and main bearings seating against crank surfaces. You're right in that the main concern is crud stuck in rings and down in oil galleries.

I'd wait 8 -10 running hours and do an oil and filter change. We're probably being 'way too careful here - but that's what happens as we get older.

As for the Lucas additive - in an F-134 it might be a bit of overkill. By today's standards, this is really a light duty engine that's not going to be beaten all that hard. Lucas does make oil slicker (through chemical processes I don't understand) and I wonder if 1953 design seals will hold it in or will it find places to crawl through?

I was down at Knob Creek Kentucky (you know of the place). One of the stories was about a gentleman who had a Lewis gun that kept breaking parts. After a bit of discussions with folks, it turned out that he was lubricating with some modern super slick greases. Slicker greases made higher cyclic rate, higher rate meant much more stress and harder impacts and broken parts. Old sticky grease slowed things down and no more broken parts. The point is that on old stuff, newer and slicker isn't always better (and its a good story too).

What temperature thermostat are you using? I find data for the F-134 that says 160 degrees and some data says 180 degrees. Colder is not necessarily easier on the engine since crud needs to get hot so it doesn't accumulate in the oil, especially on engines that don't run all day long.

Even at 180 degrees, that little engine is relatively cold compared to modern engines. I have read that one of the reasons to run straight 30-weight oil is that the engine just doesn't get hot enough to bring 5W30 or 10W30 multi-viscosity oils up to full 30W viscosity!

And - one of the reasons that properly restored 38's are so rare is that folks just don't want to invest the dollars in the 24-volt wiring and electrical system and the RFI shielded plugs, wires and ignition parts. Yeah, it's an investment.

Hang in there - you have a fan club rootin' for you. And be careful.

E8B Sends

[pelago]

thermostat, damn i really dont know what i put into it??? but a 180 temp not hard to obtain, will get one. there is some food for thought on the "newer slicker oil additives and the multi wt oils. think i will double gasket the side cover, with only two bolts holding the damn thing on, well who knows. would have been more comfortable with multi bolts going all the way around it, but wth this thing was designed for short life, hit the beach full high gear, kick ***, beat the hell out of it, then go get another one

[gmwillys]

LarrBeard brings up several good points in regards to the oil additives. The additives would most likely cause you headaches as far as leaks. The best would be what the book calls for, SAE 30. Tractor Supply sells SAE 30 Non detergent oil for engines that has sludge sealing all the seals.

As far as a thermostat, if you plan on doing any parades, then the cooler thermostat would be best. If you will be mainly running down the road on nice days, then the 180 degree thermostat will do just fine.

[pelago]

TRACTOR SUPPLY, NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!!
so damn hard to get plain old sae 30 wt went to three box stores and just could not find straight 30wt
FOUND OUT WHY #4 EXH LEAKED, SOMEHOW THE GASKET "DISINTEGRATED???" TOOK THE MANIFOLD OFF AND IT WAS JUST LIKE A POWDER IN THERE!! Have no idea how, why, or anything else, "bad gasket??" anyway called Mike and they are warranty shipping me a new set. great folks there

[LarrBeard]

SOMEHOW THE GASKET "DISINTEGRATED???" TOOK THE MANIFOLD OFF AND IT WAS JUST LIKE A POWDER IN THERE!!

Sometimes the solution really is simple.

[gmwillys]

It's great that they stand behind their products. That is ponderous why the gasket would have burnt. The only thing that comes to mind is that the exhaust valve stuck open on number four, and toasted the gasket? Just a theory.

Tractor supply has the oil in 6 quart jugs for cheap.

[pelago]

no, was not burnt, but turned into a grey powder?? sure had some carbon on it but it was all stringy and powdery?? defect, who knows but the other ones were fine and holding. beats me. great to hear about trucker supply, there is one around here

[gmwillys]

That is odd. Must have been a defective gasket. Tractor Supply is a good source of pay by the pound grade 8 hardware, and 2 gallon jugs of 30 Wt. engine oil. I looked last night, it was a 2 gallon jug and not 6 quarts. The price is around $20.00 for the 2 gallons jug.

[pelago]

GONNA RIG UP A TEMP GAUGE TEMPORARILY THEN GET HER HOT AND DRAIN OIL AND REFILL WITH SAE30 FROM TRUCKERS

HERE IS THE PLAN PHASE TWO OF ENGINE RE START
1. new gasket set on the way, fri, sat? (with hi temp/hi tack sealer)
2. on first (trying to stay in my budget) order carb rebuild kit and new plug wires, (military set for "groan" $260.00)
trucker store here i come, and need to crawl under and tighten all the pan bolts to make sure they are tight
Phase three.
1. complete exhaust system (think it is much easier to bend over and hang exhaust rather than crawl under and look up
2. one rim and two tires ( so can add the crappy out of size tires to the frame and roll out of garage so i can bring body in out of weather and start it off

then not any order but rebuild steering, and put it all together, wire loom will need some ends and got to continue with that
HEY MAYBE THERE IS A GLIMMER OF LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, JUST MAYBE (YEAH AND THE HORN WORKS LOUD LITTLE BUGGER)