View Full Version : '46 CJ2A Parts Runner

04-30-2018, 07:22 AM
This is our CJ2A that has been within the family since the early eighties. When purchased, the engine was crude oil pump more than it was an internal combustion engine. There would not be a mosquito in sight when driven around the property. The heep spent most of the time in the garage as a catch all for many years, without moving. My Grandfather talked Dad into letting him take it to his farm for a chore workhorse. He couldn't stand for a vehicle to sit and not be used, so he took on ownership. First thing he did was pull the engine down to discover that one of the pistons had a hole in it. He replaced the damaged piston, and had it running in no time. He used it around the farm until his passing. I then in turn purchased it from my Grandmother for what they had in it for repairs, but then later received a check for Christmas for the amount of the purchase price. I have had the Jeep at my property ever since, and have been tinkering with it since. The first thing that needed attention was the front frame horns. The heep had spent most of its early career as a snow plow, so the frame was trashed. The front cross member was rotten, and the horns were encased in scrap iron to strengthen the rust. The first order of business was to salvage the front horns off a later 2A frame that was rusted out in the middle frame section. I didn't purchase a new front cross member because the steering drag link mount on the original was in good shape, and the ends of the original were the only rotten part. The Jeep had one of the best road manners of all the Jeeps that I have been around, so I didn't want to mess too much with the steering. After marking the dimensions of the front frame, and placing some plumb bobs and mark the floor to keep everything in check. A couple of cut off wheels later, the front frame was laying on the top of the scrap heap. Taking the measurements from the original frame section, and relating it to the replacement frame rails, then they were cut also. The new horns fit nicely in place on the original frame. The cross member was fixed by putting in sleeves inside the original center section. The trick is finding the correct diameter to match the outer diameter of the cross member. The cross member was drilled so the sleeves could be plug welded, then there was a 1/4" gap left between the original cross member and the replacement section to ensure proper fusion when welded. After the cross member was completed, then the frame horns were welded solid. he frame welds were dressed, then a fish plate was added to the inside of the frame channel. Being that the heep will not be a serious off road jumper, I opted that the frame didn't need the outside frame rail to be fish platted. When looking at the outside of the frame, there doesn't look to be any repairs done.

The last two photos are of (1) the donor frame, (2) another early 46' CJ2A that donated some other useful parts. Everything structural on it was rusted away, so there was little that could be salvaged.

04-30-2018, 07:38 AM
The next step was to go through the brake system. All new wheel cylinders and master cylinder were installed. The cylinders came from Crown, and if I were to spend the money again, I would have spent a few more dollars and bought the Wagoner or Raybestos offerings. The Crown wheel cylinders required the holes on the backer plate to have to be hogged out in order for the mounting bolts to line up, along with the bleeder port as well. I purchased the brake line kit from Kaisers, and it was good from that point on. Everything went together without too much trouble.

After the brakes were all in order, then it was time to rework the front fenders. The inner supports were both gone, so new replacement supports were ordered. A little sheet metal work was needed to complete, and then metal finishing. To finish them off, a coat of flat black was sprayed on to protect the surface.

04-30-2018, 08:19 AM
When greasing the drive shafts and topping off the differential dope, it was noticed that the rear end pinion bearing was toast. The pinion raised about 3 inches when the drive shaft was turned. The odd thing was that there was no noise or vibration when driving previously. I had an extra rear end from the early 2A that was salvaged, so it was swapped in until I get some time to rebuild the original.

After the rear end was swapped out, then it was time to work on the body tub. The amount of bondo that encased the tub didn't leave much hope that there was much of the original metal beneath. There was a total of 5 coats of paint, (with the base layer of the original Normandy Blue on the bottom) with a hardy coat of bondo between the 3 and fourth coat. In some places, the bondo was a 1/2" slathering of plastic filler applied. The hood weighed twice as much than it should have. I had used they nylon 180 grit brushes in the past for stripping paint with a lot of success on the M38A1 project, so I tried it on stripping through the paint in bondo. They worked like a charm, eating right through it all, to the base metal. The base metal only needed to be wiped down with prep solvent in order to be primed. I chose to keep the bare metal look for the time being, and just clear over the surface. The tub was in descent condition, with some vintage body work being done sometime in the fifties. The repairs were brazed together, and it gives a good look for these days of the rat rod craze. Someday after I complete the wagon project, I will pull the tub and replace the floors and just about everything except for the cowl. Everything is solid enough for now, but to make it last for another 70 years.

04-30-2018, 08:30 AM
The seat frames were fairly rough. The floor mounts were rotten on the driver's seat, so they were cut off, sleeved, and replaced with tubing. The ends were bent and flattened to mimic the original. The seat cushions are actually boat seat cushions that fit rather well. They offer just enough cushion to make the ride tolerable, but not too thick to place you too close to the steering wheel.

The windshield needed some attention at the lower, passenger side lock. It was rusted out around the clamp mount. Again, the rust was cut out, sleeved, and new pipe was added. The plexiglass wind screen was pulled, and the screw holes were filled and finished. A new inner windshield frame was purchased, and a local glass shop cut the tinted safety glass. The aftermarket glass seals didn't fit the thickness of the glass. The glass was installed with urethane calk in place of the seal. An original set of window arms were cleaned up and painted. They took a bit of adjustment to match up the frame to the arms. They now work fairly well. The only complaint is that the aftermarket inner frame does not have hole for the center latch to keep the windshield closed.

04-30-2018, 08:59 AM
The original harness was intact from under the dash board, to about 5 inches out of the firewall. From there on out it was a spliced mess. When the fenders were installed, new wires were run to form an vintage looking wire loom. I had a neighbor who worked for a power company generating plant. He brought me a spool of six pair, 10 gauge, nomex fiber, color coded wire. The wire was easy to work with, and with 3M heat shrink connectors, the loom should last forever. The nomex puts you in mind of the original fabric covered wires, but is fire resistant.

04-30-2018, 09:15 AM
When bringing out the heep this year, the clear coat was showing it's age. I figured it was time to dress up the sheet metal, and apply another coat of clear.

04-30-2018, 10:15 AM
Well, if you start with a load of scrap metal and add a lot of time, skinned knuckles, dirt and money, you end up with ... a Heep!

Why do we do it? It feels good and we can!

Nice story.

05-21-2018, 05:35 AM
Since it didn't rain this weekend as predicted, it was decided to work on the tail lights of the 2A. The rear panels had been beat and caved in through the history of the heep, and slathered over with filler. I took the handy farm jack and pushed the rear panel and cross member back into place. The bondo popped loose to uncover the original quarter panel wasn't as bad as it was thought to be. A sheet of steel was over laid over the original sheet metal for reasons unknown to me. I cut off the offending sheet metal and welded up the seams. The new tail lights were then installed then wired. We have brake and tail lights again.

05-21-2018, 05:38 AM
More photos of the quarter fix.

51 CJ3
05-21-2018, 08:24 AM
I had a CJ5 once that had some bondo in the area where the bow bracket is in the CJ2. The bondo started to come loose because it was too thick so I scraped it all off. When I was done The shallow dent looked much better in primer than it did with the filler and painted.

05-21-2018, 09:10 AM
This 2A was just about twice the weight of a normal 2A, for all the filler added to it. The hood was at least a 1/2" thick with plastic. As you stated, the underlying sheet metal wasn't that bad. Pieces of sheet metal were scabbed above the original metal, but the scabs rusted out faster than the original. Bondo was plastered on top of the scabs to resemble the original lines. After several hours of running a nylon brush over the body, I ended up with a pile of filler on the floor, and a tub that was a patchwork of metal. I'm going to keep the tub as is for now, and just shot a new coat of clear coat on to preserve the sheet metal. Someday down the road, the tub will get pulled, and new metal will be applied to make it like new. For now, it will be a good parts runner.

06-08-2020, 12:48 PM
After the Long hibernation of our little 2A, it was time to show it some love. Since the garage-ma-hall now has a functional, freshly shingles roof, it was time to dig our little chariot out of the back shed.

The first order of business was to throw the charger on the Wally World special 6 volt battery.... Why any 6 volt battery made always has a dead cell after a year, even after topping off the cells with distilled water before being put away, is beyond me.

Anyway, it was time to shop around for a new set of shocks. Being a frugal shopper, I searched all of my usual suspects. Epay, 1/4 ton and Military, Kaiser Willys, and the like. KW beat everyone with not only the total price and the free shipping to boot. Win/win in my book. Now the Heep has new shocks on all four corners, with the only snag being one of the cotter pins needing to be drilled out. Not too bad in my book.

Since now there are four, fully functional shocks on board, the next item that needed attention is the missing front bumper. The as found bumper was a piece of schedule 40 steel pipe. Bubba barn yard engineering at its best. The real sad part was the "original" frame horns. They were there under a cladding of odds and ends from the pile the scrap yard rejected. The reasoning for the garbage truck refugees was that the Jeep was at one time used as a snow plow rig. The constant curbing, and salt destroyed the front frame horns and front crossmember. Being the relentless tight wad, I looked at the frame replacement sections offered, and kicked around the notion, but went instead to my small hoard of odds and ends. I had a 3A frame that was less then ideal, because it was rescued from many of years being burried in a creek bank. The redeemable quality was that the frame horns were pretty good, but the crossmember was trashed. At least I was 2/3 the way there. After several inspirational whiskey cokes, and a few Marlboros, and a lot of starring at the center section of the crossmember, I figured I could section in the rotten ends, and salvage the center section. $20 bucks worth of fresh steel from the local steel yard, and the plan came together. After this being done several years back, I'm not sure if I could tell you where it was spliced, except for where the paint changes back to multi color. As usual, I've strayed from the story a bit. Back to the front bumper. I purchased a 2A USA built front bumper that is spot on.... As long as your front frame horns are also 2A, and not 3A. I'd be perturbed if I had not planned ahead. The big difference is that the 2A steps down just after of the bumper. In my hoarding of small piles of parts, I had saved an early front gussets for a '46.

This brings you up to speed to where I'm at today. The gusset are separated, (top side) from the old horns, and painted. The frame is touched up with a little rattle can. Now it will just take a little adjustments here and there to install bumper.

06-09-2020, 06:53 AM
I love the way you put these old things back together! It is as original as it gets. All the right pieces put back together again. A true restoration.

06-09-2020, 07:43 AM
I got a chuckle out of garage-ma-hall. Just when you think you've heard it all. Dang...:)

06-09-2020, 08:53 AM
I like it!

06-09-2020, 09:50 PM
Garage - MA-hall was my original shop where I lived at my last profession. The city inspector was peeved that he ok'd the plans without studying the dimensions.... The footprint was right per the requirements to be the same as the house. The height was where he had a stroke. The ceiling was vaulted, with 22' from the center to the floor. The walls were 12' 8". Plenty of room for four 4 post storage lifts like what TJones has, or at least that was the plan. Oh well, someday when I figure out a permanent home, I'll build another, but that was way back when I was single with money.

06-10-2020, 10:55 PM
That's a great great jeep. My favorite part is the relentless tightwad. I do not know how such man owns a Jeep project.

06-11-2020, 11:21 AM
You acquire all the cast offs from other hoarders, keep the salvageable items then scrap the rest. Just think of Sanford and Son, without the son.

06-11-2020, 07:42 PM
"But Mom, it followed me home,can I keep it?"

06-11-2020, 08:07 PM
Great story

06-12-2020, 04:46 AM
You can never tell what I might bring home, that's for sure.

06-12-2020, 06:01 AM
Oh my,,, you have the same "problem" as my son. He is already planning the next barn to store all the projects! You guy's are possessed by your imaginations. Your ability to accomplish these things feeds the madness. Non stop cool stuff going on simultaneously. Its like trying to watch a NASCAR big oval track race with a wild demolition derby going on in the infield, while barbecuing.

06-12-2020, 10:51 AM
Been there and done that too.

06-13-2020, 06:14 AM
OMG! The headers on the trophy car are outrageous!! Haha, truly in the spirit of the Derby. That trophy is hard to get.

Only a few know how much fun that is. The fastest burst of energy you can get without turning it upside down at 200. Shades of Mad Max.

06-13-2020, 05:44 PM
That was the last contest I was in. It was an unlimited class that only had three rules. The build was limited to imagination and wallet thickness. The car weighed 8,200 pounds with all the steel added. The zoomies had a distinct bark to them, sitting on top of a 440 BBD. They made tunning the fuel easy. Nice blue flame under load at the tips meant everything was running right.

In the background of the pickup pictures is the quarter panel of a '68 Chevelle "street/strip" I had. It was a stripped down Malibu, with a built 468 BBC. The frame was twisted, so every hard launch would put you in the next lane.

Jeeps are cheap in comparison to other hobbies.

06-13-2020, 06:37 PM
"Jeeps are cheap in comparison to other hobbies."

Man if I had all the time and money back I spent on Racing and Racing parts..... Wait, no thanks it was and is a blast!

06-13-2020, 07:37 PM
I'm gonna make it my business to hang out a a track when America starts back up. That trophy car is sweet. And count me among the lucky ones who have a Jeep fever, not a sport car fever, considering they call em Cheaps. As for hoarding, found out when I lived rural every pile on the property is going to be something someday!

06-14-2020, 10:46 AM
I wouldn't trade those days for anything. It was a blast, and if the southern region had derbies here, I'd probably still have one sitting around. There are lots of big American cars sitting around here but there are no county fairs.

06-15-2020, 10:57 PM
Just for giggles I recently became aware of a truck and trailer 8 track derby on YouTube. By now, you may suspect that is my style. These folks were serious about their business. And it came out to a tie, decided by crowd noise. Huge trophy. Every inch of track had useful parts scattered here and yon. Wonderful. I'm am sure this will not be a popular post here on the most traditional of historic resto forum, and the best one. But I loved it!!!

06-16-2020, 06:54 AM
I'm am sure this will not be a popular post here on the most traditional of historic resto forum, and the best one.

Hey - some things were just meant to be torn up! (-Just so it isn't an FC-170 doing the towing).

06-16-2020, 08:24 AM
I remember watching Wide World of Sports when I was a kid and once in a while they would have demolition derby. For some reason one name I remember is a guy named Boggs. He must have been top dog at that track anyway. That and figure 8 racing, that was a hoot too. That seemed to be more of a "chicken" situation than just speed.

06-16-2020, 06:37 PM
Some cars/trucks are collectors, and some are destined for crashing. Late 60s - mid 70s Chrysler and GM land yachts are the most popular derby cars. They were tough as nails, but not collectable due to being crew cabs. The '68 New Yorker That was pictured above was in descent shape except the entire floor was rotten. The car was a California car, but was purchased and brought to the mid west. Neighborhood hoodlums broke out the windows and the rain collected in the carpet and eat through the floor. Being unibody, the structure was too far gone to save, plus it wasn't a Charger or Cuda, so the parts weren't available in the aftermarket.
Figure 8 races take a special level of testicular fortitude. There are even three car chain figure eights where the center car is not powered, but is steered. The lead car guides and the third car controls the swath of destruction. Combine, school bus, truck and trailer, and now lawn mower derbies. If it moves on its own, let's bash it in to another for a trophy! I'm in!

06-16-2020, 07:28 PM
Totally in. It may not cure what ails us, then again, it might! I agree with those pipes on the trophy car. And the tires. Did you go into the deal confident? Or was it a surprise victory?

06-16-2020, 09:30 PM
I was all in. The other car was a '69 Continental with a bus frame. We were playing tag for a while, and it was getting boring. I motioned to him to back up to the far end of the arena. I did the same on the opposite end. We both trompt the gas and raced to the middle of the field. We hit so hard that the shifter would automatically jam up to reverse. We repeated this sequence for four or five boughts. My car shortened up five inches at the upper control arm mount, because it was the only part of the sub frame that wasn't stuffed with scrap steel. The big block was mounted to a half inch plate of steel that went across the front of the engine to the other frame rail to support the engine. This plate also bowed forward six inches. The left side engine block cast mounts sheared off and took off the number 3 and 5 spark plugs. It still had plenty of power even being down on two cylinders.

06-17-2020, 12:22 AM
Yep. It's on my list. I am going to idle around while someone constructs a steel plates Lincoln continental. I am going to ride in the vehicle which tows this to an arena. I am going to watch this behemoth transverse some mud track. If the results are anything close to what you describe above, again, your personal viewpoint of what must have been a fluiditic, dynamic situation, then I will be happy, and will have been prepared for the true quest, called by some the peninsula of Baja, 500. Or thousand, whatever. Not important. I thought I had a cheap old guy hobby. Build a Jeep truck I said. Okay. honey she said. Amazingly enough, it worked! A year and a half later I'm in hog heaven driving my pick em up truck.

Then I read a forum post I that said:

"The big block was mounted to a half inch plate of steel that went across the front of the engine to the other frame"

06-17-2020, 05:49 AM
A real live look at "Death Race"! In the movie Jason Stratham plays gmwillys.

06-17-2020, 11:44 AM
I liked Jeff Bridges in The Last American Hero. A piece of rail road track mounted behind the turn signal.

There was a lot of hard hits during a season. I often wonder why it takes a few moments to get out of bed in the morning.
Every county fair had their own show. You just picked and choose to where you wanted to run. There are some videos on the tube that has some of the tracks that I ran. Pine City MN, Rush City, MN and Marshal/Putnam Fairgrounds in IL.

06-27-2020, 10:00 PM
After waiting for the paint to dry, here are the results of the CJ3A frame horn conversion to a 2A front bumper configuration. As a recap, the front frame was rotten on our 2A, and I had acquired a 3A frame that was rotten in the middle. The way my brain works is to Salvage what can be saved before condemning the whole frame. Since the middle of the 3A frame was weight reduced to the point that you could jab a screwdriver through the back of the C channel from the master cylinder to the rear spring mount. The big difference between the 2A stub and the 3A is the step down formed on the 3A. The early 2A had a boxed rectangle that the difference between the bumper and frame is made up by gussets that tie the bumper to the frame. The gusset follows the contour of the 3A frame step down almost perfectly, and unless you were really versed in frame configurations, it would not likely be noticed.

The only modifications that needed to be made to the frame to make all this work was to drill six 3/8" holes to accept the upper gusset hole closest to the frame upkick. The two angle brackets that tuck in behind the bumper and mount to the frame horn outboard side to secure the bumper to the frame, needed two holes drilled per side. Everything lined up as far as frame width and height.

Now, The next thing to ponder over is if I should go all the way and cut in the lower gussets. The rub is that the lower gusset is sandwiched between the frame and the forward spring shackle mount. Not a huge deal, with the easiest solution to be to cut the gusset close to the spring mount, then weld them in on the 2A frame. This is more cosmetic more than structural. I'm sure down the road I may.

06-28-2020, 07:31 AM
Looking perfect! This is the ultimate "Parts Runner". Run out to get parts anywhere in classic style .

06-28-2020, 08:43 AM
I really enjoy watching a true craftsman at work.

06-28-2020, 03:14 PM
I just wish I was a quarter as good as the Bloke from Australia with his Grand Willys project, (Google Grand Willys Project) and prepare to be amazed. He proves that you don't has to have a shop full of metal working tools, if you have plenty of talent.

06-30-2020, 09:25 AM
Today I rearranged the hall of Heeps so that I could work on the parking brake on our 2A. Salvage parts will save the day again, but did find out that we were still missing a couple of pieces, plus the shoes on the salvaged unit were oil soaked. While I wait for the parts to show up later this week, I'll clean up the backer plate and work to loosen up the adjusters. Keep tuned for updates.

06-30-2020, 09:33 AM
That's a garage you could just look at and feel good

06-30-2020, 01:00 PM
GM you know what really works well on oil soaked pads/disc is "Fullers Earth" my Dad and Grandfather used to use it on their pull pans behind the dozers, the power units that operated the cables always got covered in grease and working in the hot summer days it would drip grease down in the power units onto the clutches/brakes that raised and lowered the bowel on the pan.
I am thinking we got it at the drugstore, not real sure if they still make it or sell it but i am telling you it would suck the oil out of anything.

06-30-2020, 02:06 PM
When truck shoes would get saturated with gear lube from a failed hub seal, we would burn off the lube with a torch. That was when the shoes were made with asbestos. These shoes are pretty well worn down, so I ordered up a new set. They were cheaper then buying shoe stock and riveting them to the old junk. The parts will be here at the ranch tomorrow. I'll look and see if I can find some Fullers Earth just to have on hand.

If I had an acre under roof, the workshop would look the same. Oh well, the air is on today, so it's a good day to play in gear lube.

My viscous shop dog Shadow enjoying the cool air.... Honestly, she is more anti social then my German Shepherd.

The pictures are of the old parking backer plate coming off, then the salvaged unit along with another cable that hasn't been spliced with a cable clamp. Duh!, sorry the first couple of pictures are upside down.

06-30-2020, 06:19 PM
The salvaged backer plate cleaned up nice, and a quick fog of Rustoleum made it look alright. The outside still had the Military olive paint, so I decided to leave it alone. The drum had a half inch of crud built up due to no shoes to keep it shaved down. The nylon brush did a good job of cleaning up the rust to give the new shoes something to grip to.

07-01-2020, 07:20 AM
In the upside down photos, I spy a "Cherry Bomb" and a non factory driveshaft. I do like the diameter on that Prop shaft tube. MUCH better than the original!

07-01-2020, 09:40 AM
When I call it a Heep, I mean it. This thing is a conglomeration of odds and ends. Most of the underbody consists of a patchwork of scrap iron and sheet metal. Most all of the hat channels are all gone, but oddly enough the white oak stiffeners are still in place.
There are pieces of cutting edge and angle iron supporting the body from dropping around the frame. If it wasn't for the fact that this Heep runs so well, and has the best road manners, I would have blown this apart before the wagon.
The drives haft looks to have come out of a wagon, so it has a little more meat to it. The Cherry Bomb has been well burned out, so it actually sounds descent, with the Willys whine when going down the road. The Heep burned massive amounts of oil for a lot of years, so when the piston was replaced, (1) the bomb was thoroughly burned and cleaned out.

07-03-2020, 02:12 PM
I'm convinced. Mines getting a complete underside deep clean and resto after seeing those results.

07-03-2020, 10:50 PM
To do list getting shorter.

Headlight switch replaced for INOP Park and brake lights.

Brake pedal removed and welded up.

Park brake assembled with new shoes and actuator.

Recycled skid plate pulled out to clean up.

07-04-2020, 07:28 AM
On a roll now gm! I like the pedal fix. Excellent idea.

07-28-2020, 07:39 PM
I'm going to let the photos do the talking on this throttle linkage and Rube Goldberg return spring set up. It worked, but sure wasn't pretty.

07-29-2020, 07:16 AM
Working defeats beauty!

07-29-2020, 08:37 AM
It is amazing how we get to the same topic at the same time. I just asked OkieMark about a throttle spring on an F-134!

08-01-2020, 08:40 PM
The throttle springs are the same, just different on the 134F. I neglected to share a picture of the end product. I didn't use the spring mount that came with the spring because it was longer then the original. I liked the more tension on the spring that the original offered.

Today I was able to get out in the garage for a while. The park brake is installed and resealed. The brake is adjusted, and the cable is run up to the dash. The speedo cable is replaced and hooked up. The return spring for the park brake may be bass awkward, but that can be switched around with little effort.

08-02-2020, 11:36 PM
Awesome. That park brake is worth bookmarking.

09-19-2020, 06:19 PM
Great skills gmwillys! It's a pleasure to watch your work.

09-19-2020, 08:01 PM
When I get some time, I'll post some more on the 2A. I have managed to get it back to road worthiness, then a set back reared its head. Not a big deal, but have to go back through the service brakes. I am figuring that one of the eccentric washers has slipped and not holding the shoe in place. At road speed, when the brakes are applied, she cuts hard to the right. Could be the Crown wheel cylinder is hanging up too, so there will be some trouble shooting involved. It may be a good time to install a check valve in line as well that retains some fluid to keep from having to pump the brake pedal to achieve good braking force. More to follow.

I did install a new horn button, and the photos are included. Then after that, I had to adjust the horn for the proper Jeep sound. It started off as a muffled underwater dieing sheep sound, so that had to have some attention. A 11/32 ignition wrench and a flat screwdriver was all it takes. Now she sounds proper, and loud to boot.

The last picture is of a M38 found out in the wild. It was set up in front of a too numerous to mention rust and junk shop that we passed by this morning to go one of the local flea markets. I didn't ask if it was for sale, but it is complete and appeared to run. The body is pretty far gone, but not too far.... I don't need any more projects.

09-20-2020, 01:01 AM
How does one adjust a horn? I've heard about the proper sound but didn't know you could achieve it, just thought your horn was right or not right. Glad you are back on the road. Worried about that braking you mentioned, hope it's works out

09-20-2020, 06:37 AM
The horn sound! I had to go online and I found a web site that gives you the correct sound. As correct as you can get through your computer. Anyway, the adjusting screw was gone on mine so I had to start from scratch. With 12 volts on a 6 volt horn it is a loud one.

gm if you are pumping it a few to get the pedal, I am thinking your diagnosis of wheel cylinder is a logical choice. The stuck piston could be causing you to pump it to make up the volume.

Now that picture... a peek at a catalog entry perhaps?

Jeep sounds. https://cj3b.info/Horn.html

09-28-2020, 10:51 AM
The double pump of the brake pedal is common on these old school brake systems, especially when the reservoir is on the same elevation as the wheel cylinders. The issue stems from the fluid draining back into the master cylinder between brake applications. There is a fix for this, and will be purchasing the fittings and documenting the results. The residual pressure valve retains 10 PSI of brake fluid within the wheel cylinder/line to #1 keep the wheel cylinder piston boots expanded to prevent leakage, and #2 to retain fluid within the line for more positive braking when the pedal is applied once. The 10 PSI is for drum brakes, while disk brakes require only 2 PSI fittings. The disks are much more efficient, so less pressure is required to keep primed, (so to speak).


I moved the Heep around this weekend, and it appeared to be braking alright, but the test will be going down the road and testing again. A stuck wheel cylinder piston would be the most logical diagnosis for this issue, and the fix would be to dump the Crown wheel cylinders and scrounge around to find some Wagner USA made cylinders, but everyone is out of stock on them currently.

09-28-2020, 11:38 AM
Interesting on the Wilwood part. Check valves are used in all the O.E drum brake systems and should be present in your Master Cylinder. If that isn't "checking" that would explain it for sure. I wonder if you have a bum check valve? I have all KW parts in my system. It is rock solid and a good pedal no matter how long it sets. That said it does not "stop on a dime"! The more payload the more the dimes go by. I am sooo spoiled by modern assisted 4 wheel disc brakes, with wide tires.

09-28-2020, 03:28 PM
The master and wheel cylinders all came from KW, along with the brake lines clips and hoses. I've gotten used to driving well seasoned vehicles, it was habit to double pump everything. I vacuum bled it, and have checked have gone through them every year during the annual service, and it doesn't improve. Since the Willys is a single pot reservoir, and one outlet, a single check valve malfunction will cause the whole works to be compromised.

I am quite satisfied with most everything that I have purchased through KW. They don't have control of the quality of the Crown stuff, and there are little other options out there anymore. Wagner does offer an American made item, but every time I check they are out of stock.

09-28-2020, 03:50 PM
My parts are fairly recent. I am not sure what the brand was. Usually I check that. I probably just can't remember what it was. After your warning on the Crown parts I was looking for them. I do not have a "pump up" issue. Its a good pedal, just not a lot of stopping power!

I am very satisfied with KW also. I am sure they wouldn't give you any trouble on a replacement. If it was dragging a shoe from a stuck cylinder I would think it would dive when you hit it hard. Hmmm on the master cylinder, I wonder if you have a bad one. It shouldn't pump unless it is loosing a little fluid and getting a little air some where. That should make a mess in the brake drum, not to mention a spongy pedal.

09-28-2020, 05:00 PM
The pedal has always been rock hard on the second pump, with no fade. The heep will stop within a reasonable distance, and wants real hard to lock up the rear wheels through the weight transfer. I've had to perform several panic stops when driving around town due to some of the idiot driver's we have in this college town. The current configuration has been installed for around six years. It doesn't matter if it is the first application or the fifteenth stop, you always have to double pump. This isn't the first Jeep that the master cylinder I had to change out. They did the same as well, I think the first one received a Wagner, but the rest have been Crown. I'm going to have to research this more, because it is a common problem on anything with a frame mounted master. Common enough that there are several manufacturers who make the residual pressure valves. Ponderous.

09-28-2020, 06:33 PM
No doubt your on to something gm. In all the older vehicles that used a frame mounted master or a master down low, the check valve was imperative. The symptoms were a firm pedal that had to be "long or double stroked". It was used on all drum brakes as far as I know. A little junk in the reservoir and the valve gets plugged. Trying to fill the reservoir without getting dirt in it, while pouring fluid through the floorboard, right! I bet that a lot of aftermarket valves go into vehicles with plugged open check valves.

I bet you have a bad one gm.

09-29-2020, 06:39 AM
I don't think I have ever heard of a master cylinder check valve - in fact I know I haven't. Very informative discussion.

Too soon I get old, too late I get smart

09-29-2020, 07:41 AM
It's important for me to keep learning because I forgot everything!

09-29-2020, 09:56 AM
I looked up the break down of the parts for the rebuild kit, and there is not a check valve within the master cylinder. I didn't want to argue until I had something to back up my thinking, but I didn't remember there being anything between the reservoir and the banjo bolt. You can run a wire through the passage in the casting to remove any rust or sludge when rebuilding after running through the parts washer. At the banjo fitting, the fluid Ys off to the rear and front axles. The residual pressure fittings would then be installed in line, close as possible to the master cylinder to retain the line pressure enough to give you good pedal at the first application. The later master cylinders would have the check valve installed, this was true with our wagon where it had a later firewall mounted single pot manual master run with the later Wagoneer hanging pedals. It had good pedal all the time without the double pump. I've spent a lot of time setting up brake systems on all my old junk, to include using feeler gauges to adjust the shoes for the tightest tolerance possible for the most stopping power. Everything that I've dealt with that had a low mounted master has ended with a double pump on the application, regardless of vehicle make, and style of master cylinder. When researching the issue, I came across the residual pressure valves through a hot rod forum of like minded people who wanted to improve their braking performance. If the valve works, then I will document and post the results. If it doesn't work, then I will need to go back through the whole system and find out where there might be an introduction of air to the system. I don't think that air is the issue, but it is a possibility.


09-29-2020, 01:17 PM
I remember these discussions on that check valve from the Chassis Classes we held way back in time. I remembered something from the ASE studies. I attached a quick guide they have posted on it. https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/residual-check-valve.html

It is interesting what may be here. It looks like if the master does not have a check valve, then it must have cup expanders on the wheel cylinders. I remember rebuilding a few 50's era Chevy pick ups and there were check valves in the master. I bounced around a few of the classic pages and there is discussion about the older Master Cylinders using check valves and the "newer" replacement Master cylinders did not have them installed. In the cases where there was no check valve the expanders were needed to prevent the double stroke. Since you know there is no check valve it leads me to wonder do your wheel cylinders have the cup expanders? The cup expander is just a spring that sets between the cups, pushing the cups back out. If that spring is not in the wheel cylinders that could be it. Since you know there is no check valve, it definitely wouldn't hurt to put one in. If there was air the pedal would be soft. It doesn't seem like you have air in it. I can tell you mine does not exhibit that issue, but I did not look for the valve or the spring.

Now what you said about feeler gauges. I have never been able to get the shoes to spec. I cannot get enough adjustment from the lower cams to make contact. I have all new parts in there. I can get the tops to adjust out barley to touch, but not the bottoms. It almost seems like the shoes don't have enough material on them. I bet if I could get a good adjustment my stopping power would go up. Any ideas on that?

09-29-2020, 08:23 PM
I bought the shoes from KW, but set them aside. I didn't like the fitment, so I went to the original shoes, with some fresh brake material riveted on. The material is most likely asbestos, because there was no telling how long it had been sitting on the shelf.

There are boot springs on the original wheel cylinders, but I didn't tear into the replacements to see. Even with the cup expander, with the reservoir being so low, the fluid still has a tendency to go back and equalize back at the master. With all this being said, when I get back to it I am going to order a new master and wheel cylinders to start fresh.

09-30-2020, 07:37 AM
I wonder where I can get some shoes with thicker linings. I bet the rivited ones you found were thicker.

It is puzzling what is going on with your brakes. Since you have a firm pedal it has to be a volume of fluid vs motion issue. If the volume of fluid isn't sufficient to move the pistons out to contact, you would have to pump it again to get the next movement. Like a jack, each pump moving it a little further. With that thought, I pressure bled my system. That would push the pistons out and insure maximum fill. After that I did go around manually but, the pedal is real good for what it is. I wounder if one or more of your cylinders are sticking in when you bleed it and consequently, affecting the total volume of fluid? I like your "square one" approach. There could be a gremlin in there.

09-30-2020, 11:32 AM
With nothing preventing the fluid from returning to the reservoir after the pedal releases, it takes the path of least resistance. If the master was mounted to the firewall, and the fluid has to go up hill, it stays in the line as is ready for the next brake application.

The brake lining material was from when I worked at a Ford tractor dealer. We dealt a lot with the N series of tractors, and could rebuild all aspects of every component. I trimmed them down to fit on the length then peened in new rivets. The holes for the rivets didn't match up, so I filled the holes in the bracket and re-drilled. Sounds like a lot of work for not much gain, but I just didn't like the way the reproductions fit.


09-30-2020, 06:26 PM
gm, do you have the Service Manual for Universal Jeep Vehicles? I was looking at section P. In paragraph P-2 they talk about the check valve and the return spring, and it says both are used together. On page 225 they show two exploded drawings of the master cylinder. It does show a check valve FIG. 279, and FIG. 278. Also shown are the wheel cylinders with springs in FIG. 280 and 281. It is confusing to say the least but it looks like it takes both a spring in the wheel cylinder and a check valve. The valve is actually a seal and spring on the end of the piston. It isn't a conventional "valve". Nothing is in the line port.

10-01-2020, 05:10 AM
The valve is not conventional to say the least, it doesn't really do much to retain line pressure, but is more to equalize the residual pressure by restricting the flow. The holes in mine may be too big, or there is too much slop in the bore of the cylinder. I believe I'll start with a master cylinder and see what happens from there.

10-01-2020, 06:27 AM
The set up certainly explains how a little dirt in the system or wear, and it's not going to work very well. If this is it, it will be interesting. The springs are in your wheel cylinders. If the master and/or check valve is at fault, the spring in the wheel cylinder is not enough to stop the "double stroke".

10-01-2020, 06:52 AM
The Mechanic’s Manual for the 1948 vehicles has a passing explanation of the check valve and its function:

“The holes in the piston head are for the purpose of allowing the fluid to flow from the space in back of the piston into the space between the primary cup and the check valve, keeping sufficient fluid in the lines at all times. The holes in the check valve case allow the fluid to flow through the case, around the lips of the rubber valve cup and out into the lines during brake application. When the brakes are released, the valve is forced off the seat permitting the fluid to return to the master cylinder.”

What they don’t say specifically is that as the fluid returns to the master cylinder, pressure in the brake lines drops and at some point the spring in the check valve overcomes the pressure in the lines and then it seals off the lines to keep the pressure in them from dropping to zero.

I guess I did know that there was something you dropped into the master cylinder when you did a rebuild, but I didn’t know it was a check valve.

10-05-2020, 08:13 PM
One may ask why I never get forward progress on my projects, here are a few side projects to explain why.

10-05-2020, 08:26 PM
Some more....

The four wheeler was a close encounter with a hardwood. The tire shelf was a necessity, especially with the 37" takeoffs that are waaay too big for any of my junk to mount to, but the price was right. Plus now all my Heep wheels and the South's largest selection of BF Goodrich Silvertown and Firestone formerly studded snow tires from the '50s are shelved up and off the ground. Next my yard guard Shepherd had a knock down drag out with a snake, in which her left ear may never quite stand up like it did before, plus a part of her lower lip had to be removed and stitched back together. Now I have a '99 Mustang clogging up my garage for my brother in law. It just needs an idle air sensor that he can't afford, that when running the engine looks like it wants to turn oil pan up in the engine bay. 10 minutes worth of work, and it would be on its way back home.

10-05-2020, 11:35 PM
What kind of snake attacks an ear and a lip? I'm against that. I had a dog once that got bit by another dog and a day later his ear swole up and stood straight up for the first time ever. Love the garage pic. Being a retired tire hoarder, I love that idea to lift em up. Mine were outside and froze and thawed, houses for critters and such. When we moved off the place I lucked into a annual free dump day across the hills where they let me unload a u-haul full of tires no fee. That was nice, but I still miss my favorite and yours, those ones with holes for the studds. Side note. I also had a convertible with four studded tires I used to run down six miles of windy hilly dirt mountain roads. Front wheel drive. Except for the time that cow jumped up from asleep in the ditch and mooed at me in my side ear loud enough to scare me half to death and cause a swerve, a few deer and elk scares, that was some commute. Cool garage. So what's up with the Jeep? Any progress? C'mon man.

10-06-2020, 06:55 AM
I'm curious too about the slithery critter that fanged the dawg - Copperhead?

The big tires on the rear of the '48 have holes for studs too. We old guys can remember when just about every garage had a stud installer with an 'ammo belt" of studs hanging down.

10-06-2020, 07:25 AM
Man studded snow tires. I remember the sound they would make on the pavement. I also remember the drivers doing 80 mph and throwing them to the moon!

Nice work on the utility vehicle! A man has to have several achievable projects, lest he would have an empty mind.

Now about the dog eating snake?

10-06-2020, 07:53 AM
I spent many hours as a young kid pulling studs out so we could tool up and down the hard road, because the township commishoner would turn us in for tearing up the tar.

We don't see many snakes here at the ranch, but if I had to guess, it would have had to been either a copperhead or a rattle snake. I came home late that night and she was laying by her water bowl. Her ear was three times the size of normal, and her lip was hanging down. She can generally handle herself, so she must of been caught by surprise. The vet drained the fluid from her ear, but there is a lot of scar tissue that may not let the ear heal up properly. She can still hear a fire truck coming long before I can.