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LarrBeard
06-11-2018, 10:45 AM
It is not unusual in this forum to hear from someone who has just discovered a Jeep that has been sitting for X-number of years in the barn/shed/field and they have the urge to try to get the engine to run.

Just as an idea for the folks who have been there/done that/have scars and a dirty T-shirt to show for it.

Would it be possible to put together a list of "best practices" that we could send to these folks to help them avoid the mistakes and avoid the expensive lessons we have learned the hard way?

I'd be willing to pull it together with bits and pieces from folks.

gmwillys
06-11-2018, 07:42 PM
Good idea!

First step would be to pull the spark plugs and put in a few ounces of engine oil/transmission fluid/ and a good dose of penetrating oil. Do this before attempting to turn the engine by hand. Let the engine sit with the concoction for a half hour or so, in order for the penetrating oil to sleep into the rings. While you wait, remove the tappet cover on the driver's side, and lube the cam shaft and tappets. Inspect for broken springs, or damaged valves. At this time, adjust the fan belt to where it is snug in the pulleys. Use the fan to carefully rock the engine back and forth. If the engine turns freely, then continue to turn the engine through until both the compression and exhaust strokes have been completed. Pay special attention to any noises or a feel of something hanging up the rotation. On the F head engines, pull the valve cover to ensure that the intake valves are cycling fully. A word of caution would be to place a shop towel over the exposed spark plugs holes to catch any oil from running all over the top of the L head, or the side of the F head. Check the engine oil level, and oil condition. If the oil is milky, then the odds are is that the head gasket was likely the cause of the Jeep to be parked. If there is an excessive amount of oil in the crank case, then check to make sure that the transmission fluid and penetrating oil concoction didn't seep into the crankcase, past the pistons rings. Take this opportunity to check the coolant. If it is clean and green, then there should not be any issues with the head gasket.

Once you are convinced that everything is operating properly, then it will be time to look into the wiring. Inspect the wires leading from the ignition switch to the coil for mouse damage. Repair any damage found to prevent a fire hazard. Once all the wires are cleared for electricity, it will be time for a battery. It would be helpful to have a helper when checking the starter for proper operation, in order to pull a cable off the battery in case the starter is stuck ingaged. If all checks out to this point, then it will be time to check for spark. Pull the distributor cap, and check the points to ensure that the contacts are clean, and are adjusted correctly. It wouldn't be a bad idea to hook up a tach and dwell meter to the distributor to adjust the points, at this time. Reassemble the distributor, then check the cap for clean contacts. Place the cap back on, then check for spark at the plugs while turning the engine over. It would be prudent at this time to run a compression test to determine if all cylinders will support the engine running. If the compression is right, and there is spark, then reinstall the spark plugs, (a clean used set would do, since there might be a chance of fouling a good set).

Check the fuel tank for contamination/rust/holes. If the tank is a mess, tie into the inlet of the fuel pump, and run a fuel line into an external fuel source. Turn over the engine and observe the carburetor for fuel leaks. When the fuel bowl has adequate fuel within it, try and start the engine. Resist the urge to use a starting aid such as starting fluid. This could cause harm to the pistons or a fragile head gasket. Have a clean rag or a glove close to the carburetor to snuff out any carb fire that may happen if an intake valve doesn't fully seat. Also, if there is a back fire through the intake, check to make sure that there is no obstruction in the exhaust pipe. Mice store a ton of acorns and bedding within the muffler. listen to the engine to determine if it is receiving enough or too much fuel. If the choke butterfly isn't enough to pull enough fuel into the carburetor, the cover the carb inlet with your hand to limit the amount of air going into the carb. shutting off the air supply allows the carburetor to draw more fuel into the intake. This may have to be done until the engine is running, and the air fuel mixture is adjusted. If you are not receiving fuel into the carburetor, then the needle and seat are stuck closed within the fuel bowl. If you are receiving too much fuel, then the float may also be stuck in the down position, allowing fuel to drain constantly into the carb throat. A minor carb kit may be needed for the gaskets, if the float and needle need attention.

When the engine starts, pay attention to the oil pressure, to ensure that it comes up quickly after start. Listen for any odd noises, and make note of anything out of the norm. Leave the radiator cap off to observe that there is no combustion gases escaping through the coolant. Let the engine reach operating temperature, then shut off. Drain the engine oil, and change the coolant. If all is normal, then you have yourself a good engine.


Hopefully this covers most everything, but please add your experiences to cover any problems or troubles that you have run across.

LarrBeard
06-11-2018, 08:06 PM
I like this. Good start on "How to".

Let's see who else has inputs from lessons they have learned.

Thanks.

pelago
06-12-2018, 08:33 AM
FIRST AND FOREMOST, BE READY TO COMMIT, TO COMMIT TO BUSTED KNUCKLES, SETBACKS, MORE THAT A COUPLE OF DOLLARS SPENT. FINDING PARTS, CORRECTING ISSUES THAT YOU HAD NO IDEA THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE.

But aside from that, i have found this to be rewarding and uplifting, am bringing back to the best of my ability something that served this country well for many years and WTH it is fun

WHAT YOU DONT WANT TO DO IS PARK SOMETHING RUSTY AND HORRIBLE JEEP IN FRONT OF MOM'S KITCHEN WINDOW, AND LET HER SEE A MONEY PIT. But then again get her a set of overalls, and get her involved. (get the overalls to fit like the women's flight suits on the old BAH BAH Black sheep tv show).. if she is involved she might not balk at the 100.00 you will lay out for new brake lines

LarrBeard
06-16-2018, 01:06 PM
Here is a quick clean-up.


It is not unusual for folks who have just found a barn Jeep or who are starting to work on Grandpa’s CJ-3 to ask what to do to get the engine running. First, and foremost be ready to make a commitment to a restoration project. Be ready to commit to busted knuckles, setbacks, more money spent than you counted on. You will have issues finding parts, redoing repairs done in a previous life and correcting problems that you never expected to have.While coaxing an old Jeep engine back to life isn’t all that difficult a job, doing it in too big of a hurry can turn what could have been a pretty good engine into a basket case pretty quickly.

A good starting place is to check the engine oil level, and oil condition. If the oil is milky, then the odds are that the head gasket was likely the cause of the Jeep to be parked. If there is an excessive amount of oil in the crank case, then check to make sure that the transmission fluid and penetrating oil concoction we will talk about in a bit didn't seep past the pistons rings into the crankcase. A Willys L or F-head has an oil capacity of about 4 quarts. (The Super Hurricane 6 holds 5-quarts). If a lot more than 4 or 5 quarts comes out, there is a possibility that the block is cracked and coolant has leaked into the oil pan. Changing the old oil is a very good idea because you have no way of knowing just what is in that crankcase! For both L and F-134 engines, straight 30W, non-detergent is what the book calls for. New and improved isn’t necessarily better.

Take this opportunity to check the coolant. If it is clean and green, then there should not be any issues with the head gasket. If there is no coolant in the engine, add water (about 11 or 12 quarts) and see if water leaks out the oil pan drain plug – not a good sign. Radiator leaks and leaky hoses show up about now as well.

Next, pull the spark plugs and put in a few ounces of engine oil/transmission fluid/ and a good dose of penetrating oil into each cylinder. Do this before attempting to turn the engine by hand. A word of caution; place a shop towel over the exposed spark plugs holes to catch any oil from running down the side of the F head and you don’t want stuff falling down in spark plug holes in an L-head. Let the engine sit with the concoction for a half hour or so, in order for the penetrating oil to seep into the rings. There could be twenty years of crud in there that will bind the rings to the cylinder wall.

While you wait, remove the tappet cover on the driver's side, and lube the cam shaft and tappets. Everything in there is going to be dry and dirty. Inspect for broken springs, or damaged valves. At this time, adjust the fan belt to where it is snug in the water pump and generator pulleys.

Use the fan to carefully rock the engine back and forth. Resist the urge to use a breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley. If it takes that much effort to turn the engine, there are problems. If the engine turns freely, then continue to turn the engine through several times until both the compression and exhaust strokes have been completed. Pay special attention to any noises or a feel of something hanging up the rotation. On the F head engines, pull the valve cover to ensure that the intake valves are cycling fully.

Once you are convinced that everything is operating properly, it’s time to look into the wiring. Inspect the wires leading from the ignition switch to the coil for mouse damage or just plain old wear and rot. Repair any damage found to prevent a fire hazard. If things are in bad shape, it may be easier to just jury rig a wire from the battery to the coil and another to the starter solenoid to bypass a bunch of wires that may have issues. Remember to disconnect the old wires!

Once all the wires are cleared for electricity, it will be time for a battery. It would be helpful to have a helper when checking the starter for proper operation, in order to pull a cable off the battery in case the starter is stuck engaged. If all checks out to this point, then it will be time to check for spark.

Pull the distributor cap, and check the points to ensure that the contacts are clean (they probably won’t be), and are adjusted correctly. It wouldn't be a bad idea to hook up a tach and dwell meter to the distributor to adjust the points, at this time.

Check the cap for cracks and clean the contacts, place the cap back on then reassemble the distributor. Check for spark at the plugs while turning the engine over. Check every plug – this is the easiest place to find an open spark plug wire. A helper is really a bonus for this step!

It would be prudent at this time to run a compression test to determine if all cylinders will support the engine running. If the compression is right, and there is spark, then reinstall the spark plugs, (a clean used set would do, since there might be a chance of fouling a good set). Or, you might want to leave the plugs out until you crank the engine to prime the fuel system.

Check the fuel tank for contamination/rust/holes. If the tank is a mess, tie into the inlet of the fuel pump, and run a fuel line into an external fuel source. (Make sure the external fuel source is secure. Once the engine starts and everyone gets excited, spilling a gallon of gas under the vehicle is a good way to spoil the whole day). Crank the engine (easier to do with the plugs out) and observe the carburetor for fuel leaks. When the fuel bowl has adequate fuel within it, install –plugs and try and start the engine.

Resist the urge to use a starting aid such as ether or another starting fluid. This could cause harm to the pistons or a fragile head gasket. Have a clean rag or a glove close to the carburetor to snuff out any carb fire that may happen if an intake valve doesn't fully seat. Also, if there is a back fire through the intake, check to make sure that there is no obstruction in the exhaust pipe. Mice will store a ton of acorns and bedding within the muffler. (They can also pack the bell housing with straw as tightly as a hay bale!)

Listen to the engine to determine if it is receiving enough or too much fuel. If the choke butterfly isn't enough to pull enough fuel into the carburetor, the cover the carb inlet with your hand to limit the amount of air going into the carb. Shutting off the air supply allows the carburetor to draw more fuel into the intake. This may have to be done until the engine is running, and the air fuel mixture is adjusted.

If you are not receiving fuel into the carburetor, then the needle and seat are stuck closed within the fuel bowl. If you are receiving too much fuel, then the float may also be stuck in the down position, allowing fuel to drain constantly into the carb throat. A minor carb kit may be needed for the gaskets, if the float and needle need attention. Eventually you will want to rebuild the carburetor – nothing except whiskey and wine improve by sitting twenty or so years.

Since gauges and sensors are always suspect, it is a good idea to put a mechanical oil gauge on the oil sensor port of the block. When the engine starts, pay attention to the oil pressure, to ensure that it comes up quickly after start. Listen for any odd noises, and make note of anything out of the norm. If it doesn’t sound right – it probably isn’t! Try not to race the engine until you have a good sense that everything is normal. There is a lot of crud and dirty oil in the galleries and passages in the engine at this point. Leave the radiator cap off to observe that there are no combustion gases escaping through the coolant. Let the engine reach operating temperature, then shut it off. Change the engine oil (you will probably be amazed at how nasty it is), filter if you have one and change the coolant. If all is normal, then you have yourself a good engine.



What else do we need to talk about?

gmwillys
06-17-2018, 10:13 AM
I like what you have done.

Nemo von Klepper
08-29-2018, 10:06 AM
Thanks so much for posting this.
It's exactly the thing I had on my mind while I'm getting close to actually starting up my rig, a CJ3B

I made a mistake a few years ago and I suspect there was a clog in the oil sump pump or elsewhere and I seized the engine after only a few miles. I was in a bit of a hurry to get the vehicle registered and start working on the things I thought needed attention. I have since had a mechanic replace the engine but I definitely want to avoid mistakes. It sat in Colorado for 6 years since the incident and the engine was fired up by the mechanic 2 years ago and now it has sat in my back yard in Oregon since.

On an Indian site where someone had restored a Willys CJ4A (close cousin of the 3B, longer wheelbase, manufactured by Mahindra), there was talk about running engine cleaning oil through the system and replacing the oil filter 2 times and then proper motor oil before actually driving it anywhere. Also check tranny oil as damage can occur to any dry gears even if not driven.

My bottom line is this: Is there an easy way to check that the oil sump pump is properly irrigating the engine? Another possible suspect I'm told is gasoline leaking from the fuel pump into the crank case and thinning the engine oil. Is there anyway to check this?

To fly low on my wife's radar I have to be extremely budget sensitive. I'd throw a new fuel pump on, but why if it isn't needed?

My end goal for this rig is as a local run-about, heavy snow conditions, and the occasional 4x4 trip in the mountains.

SteveBonny
08-29-2018, 12:03 PM
Nemo,
I'm assuming you are talking about the engine oil pump and sump oil pickup? Mostly you are concerned about oil pressure and you should have a dash gage to show you what the oil pressure is doing. It should read at least 5psi at low idle and at least 20psi at high revs when the engine is hot. If you have lower values or no oil pressure reading at all you have an issue and should shut down immediately to resolve.
If you have gas leaking into the oil you should be able to smell it. Pull the dipstick and smell the oil. Gasoline has a very clear smell. You might also notice your oil level increasing over time if fluids are leaking into it. A better option might be to remove the fuel pump and pressure test it if you think the pump is leaking.

LarrBeard
08-29-2018, 03:18 PM
How to figure out if oil pump is working?

Go through the best practices to make sure that things are loose and ready to go. When you drain the old oil, look for water and, yes, a gas smell. Add fresh oil; 30W non detergent.

Once you are ready to spin it, remove the plugs, get a good hot battery and spin the engine. You should see oil pressure on the gauge. It may be only just a little off the bottom peg, but if you see oil pressure at this point, the pump is probably OK and most oil galleries are open.

Go ahead and start it, but at first start, watch oil pressure very closely. It should come up quickly and there should be no funny noises. Resist the urge to run it up as fast as it will go. A little acceleration is good to get some oil splash on cylinder walls, but "tightening the bearings" acceleration isn't a good idea just yet.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Nemo von Klepper
08-29-2018, 03:22 PM
Thanks. I can't be sure at this time if the pressure gage is working, but I will definitely put that on my checklist. Regarding the fuel pump, I'll check for gas in the oil, etc.

Right now I'm a little budget constrained. I might pull off starting this thing this September if I delay replacing the fuel line and draw the fuel out of a jerry can as described above.
I've rebuilt the carb and I need to send the starter out for a rebuild. Other than that, I'm really down to the final steps on my countdown. I think I'll go through the engine prep as described above while the starter is in the shop. The shop downtown is suppose to be really fast, so it could be just a couple of days.

Nemo von Klepper
08-29-2018, 05:02 PM
Add fresh oil; 30W non detergent.

Am I to understand you don't recommend some sort of engine cleaning oil as recommended on this thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-vehicles/90371-my-jeep-bride-mahindra-willys-petrol-cj4a-cj3b-sibling-ground-up-restoration.html?

Also, do you know what weight of oil for the transmission? I ask because I'm a lifelong Saab guy and my older '60s & '70s Saabs used to take a heavier transmission oil, but my "newer" Saabs just take regular engine oil (manual trannies).

gmwillys
08-29-2018, 07:51 PM
You can spray each cylinder with a penetrating oil to ensure that the top end is lubricated. Top off the engine oil with the SAE 30 non detergent oil. Then roll the engine by hand through a full cycle(4 crank shaft revolutions). You can take the distributor cap off to ensure that the distributor shaft is turning. From there you can follow the forum that you tagged.

The gear oil for the transmission and transfer case,(shared) is 80W90 or higher.