52 Pickup stop engine issues

[Wiotaman]

Been hooking up wiring on 52 willys pickup. I only have the schematics in my Willys schematic manual to go by. My truck has the mechanical foot pedal starter and I ran wires to what I figured was correct by the book as they had been unhooked and poorly marked for reattachment. It does start and all guages seem to work but the three position key switch does not want to turn it off. This is one that does not have the resistant start position and has three screws on the back. Any ideas? I know I am going to have to rewire and was thinking about making up my own wires. What guage of wire would be best? The truck runs but has been smoking a lot of acrid blue smoke. The fellow I got the motor from said it might need a carb overhaul when I got the motor from him years ago. It has a Carter WO on it now and my other motor had a Solex which is around somewhere. I have to try to find it and give that a try. Are there any pointers about overhauling a Carter WO?

[gmwillys]

With a mechanical foot pedal starter, you only need a two position key switch. The key switch only regulates voltage going to the coil. If your key switch isn't shutting the engine down, then you have voltage going to the coil. A three position key will work, but there will not be anything hooked to the start circuit.
Good wire is expensive. You want to use heavy gauge battery cables, and not the ones sold at the local parts house or Wally world. This is most important if you are running 6 volt. I use a lot of 8 to 10 gauge wire for most of my projects.
The blue smoke is oil that is burning. The source of the oil can be one or a combination of ailments. On an F head, the valve guides seals can leak down into the combustion chamber. This usually clears up after running a bit, when the seals expand when the engine has started. The next item to check would be the PCV valve. If it is stuck, oil can get fed directly into the intake. The third possibility is worn rings.
Rebuild the WO. Take a Solex and throw it as far as you can, then run out and kick it farther. Kaiser Willys offers a rebuild service where they take your carb and rebuild it. There is a guy in North Carolina that is a renowned authority on the Carters. His web site is the old Jeep carbs. Com.

[LarrBeard]

Been hooking up wiring on 52 willys pickup. I only have the schematics in my Willys schematic manual to go by. My truck has the mechanical foot pedal starter and I ran wires to what I figured was correct by the book as they had been unhooked and poorly marked for reattachment. It does start and all guages seem to work but the three position key switch does not want to turn it off. This is one that does not have the resistant start position and has three screws on the back. Any ideas? I know I am going to have to rewire and was thinking about making up my own wires. What guage of wire would be best?

A. You may be the victim of the First Rule of Jeep – What you see is what you have.

What do I mean by this? What you have might not match any diagram you find because you never know just who did what after it left the factory (or even before at the factory).

A 1952 Pickup should be a Model 473, but all Model 473’s were not equal. 1952 marked the first year that the trucks had a key start – but Willys-Overland was notorious for lack of configuration control. A 1951 truck might have had its factory paperwork reissued as a 1952 or – gasp – a 1952 build might not have had the key start added until all of the old harnesses and starters were built out.

I have looked at a number of wiring diagrams, and it surprises me that the Model 473 ignition switches show up as just two wire switches; ON and OFF only. My ’48 is a three position switch; CCW for Accessories, Center OFF and CW for Accessories and RUN.

Since you do not have a Start return spring, you probably have a switch with the Accessory position; maybe original, maybe not (See First Rule of Jeep above).

The best way to figure this out is with a simple light continuity tester or a cheap Harbor Freight meter.

You have three screws. Look at the photo I’ve attached for the back of my switch. The terminal that took a nut was the BATTERY terminal and the other two terminals were the ACC and RUN terminals; they took screws. Figure out your continuity tester and we’ll try to find out just what screw goes where. Turn the key until the tester says that no screw is connected to any other. We’ve found the OFF position of the key.

If that position is fully CCW, turn the key one step CW. Two terminals should be connected to one another. These two are BATTery and ACCessory. Gauges and heater should go to ACC. Turn the key one more step CW. Now, all three terminals should be connected together. The last terminal to connect is the RUN terminal and that should be connected to the coil. Accessories stay connected in RUN position.

If the position with no terminal connected is the center position, like it is on the ’48, turn the key full CCW. You will find two terminals connected; BATT and ACC. Turn the key fully CW and you will find that all three terminals are connected. The last terminal to get connected is RUN – the terminal that goes to the coil.

In neither case, did I specify which terminal was BATT and which was ACC. BATT might be a terminal that takes a nut, or it might take a bigger screw. If the two are otherwise identical, just consider them interchangeable.

If, for some reason, you can’t find a position that leaves all three terminals disconnected – you have a bad switch – not an unheard condition.

Let us know what you find out…

B. As for wires and cables - Roger on what GMWillys said about battery cables and 6-volts. 6-volts is OK. Millions of Jeeps started all over world in all kinds of weather with 6-volt systems, but you have to pay attention to cables, terminals and starter brushes.

C. For the big wire from the hot terminal on the starter up to the back of the circuit breaker, I'd go no smaller that #10 - that wire runs everything all over the vehicle. Once you get to the small stuff, #12 is probably OK, but stay with at least #10 up to the headlights - there aren't many volts in a 6-volt system and you don't want to waste any in wire drop.

D. Once you get through throwing and kicking the Solex carb, dig a hole and bury it. (Yeah, we have opinions...)

[bmorgil]

Many of the new replacement switches have all three positions, i.e. ACC, RUN, and START. On my mechanical foot start, the original switch was only 2 position. The new switch looks identical but, it has the START spring loaded position. It is not used.

One thing I would ask, did this vehicle get a 12 volt conversion by any chance. Does the motor have the original points ignition? "RUN ON" can be the motor running off of its charging source. This is a common thing with ignition swaps and alternator swaps. It is fixed with a diode in the "field" wire. The next suspect would be the ignition switch itself. To find the culprit, disconnect the "Field" wire with the engine running and the key off. If it stalls, it is feedback from the regulator. If it doesn't there is 12 volts to the positive side of the coil from somewhere, most probably a bad start switch.

[Wiotaman]

Thanks guys. I will work on your suggestions. The truck was six volt but replacement motor was not. I switched all the pertinent parts (coil, voltage reg, gen and starter) and had the generator and voltage regulator checked out by a mechanic so everthing is 6 V. Good to know your opinion on Solex so it might as well stay lost. Thanks again for your extensive insight.

[bmorgil]

Solex is a French manufacturer of Carbs that evolved from a radiator shop after world WWI. The French carburetor is usually rejected by the U.S.A. Motor in bad ways.

[LarrBeard]

The French carburetor is usually rejected by the U.S.A. Motor in bad ways.

It opens up its choke plate and hollers "Ami".

(It doesn't take much to amuse us, does it?)

[Wiotaman]

Hey guys! I went up to work on the Willys this AM. I thought I ought to reveal what I have done in case I Messed something up in preliminary wiring. I'm writing it down in a disjointed probably makes no sense sort of way. I have a coil wire going to my oil guage adn then I believe it goes to the light switch and then to the key switch marked coil. Amp position on switch went to amp guage and light switch. Acc only has heater connected to it at this time. I tried a test light to it and the only position it did not have power to it is in the middle (1 click over from full CCW) This is the one marked acc. I noted that the coil seems to get very warm and it seems in any position though I may have to recheck this. I tried a new switch that I got at KW that has three terminals poston back with another center post for the start position. I hooked the coil wire to ign. position, the amp to battery connection and heater to acc. When I connected the battery the coil position started smoking right away and I had to jerk the pos. cable on battery real quick. I believe the key was in the full CW position but not held in the spring loaded start position as nothing was hooked to that. Is there any blatant mistakes I have made. Though I was a farmer for many I didn't wrench a lot on my own motors and wiring is my biggest deficit. I also have a wire from the Voltage regulator47534753 battery terminal that goes to the positive post on the battery and a wire from the VR field terminal to bottom bolt connection on the generator, Gen terminal on voltage reg. to top post on generator. The coil wire that goes to the distributor has the wire that goes to goes to light switch mounted to same post. I only have a light tester and not sure I would know how to set the kind that reads voltage anyway. Please advise if you see any big mistakes. I noted in one of the picks that there doesn't appear a smaller wire that goes from the battery to VR battery terminal but I noted it in schematics. Is this a mistake on my part? I have seen battery pos cables with the small wire attached. I have a real heavy-duty new positive cable and a new slightly lighter gauge ground cable.475347534753 Don't know how I got 5 pics of the old switch. The top is marked AMP LOwer left is coil and lower right is ACC.

[bmorgil]

I gotta tell ya Wiotaman, it sounds like you have a cluster .... on your hands. It is so hard to give you any help without seeing this one. Maybe you know someone with a little electrical ability who might to be able to help. Right now I am not liking "smoke". There is very little safety margin in the old stuff. I would hate to see it burn.

I am going to strongly suggest you purchase a cheap Volt/Ohm/Amp meter. Next get the correct wiring Diagram. I cannot see you getting through this without a general understanding of the wring diagram and a meter. If that is not something you want to go for, do not feel bad about asking a friend or, finding a guy who will help. This will be tough just over the internet.

The next time you go to hook up the battery, pull the neg wire from the points to the coil. If the points are continuously closed with the key on, the coil will get hot. It sounds like the coil is getting power elsewhere. If it were me, I would remove anything that wasn't on the original diagram. I would return it to its original layout according to the diagram. If you can find an Electrical person, the diagram will be needed for sure.

[LarrBeard]

" The top is marked AMP LOwer left is coil and lower right is ACC.[/QUOTE]

Well, you certainly do have a mess! It looks like someone else “helped” you get into it though – it’s not your doing. You just get to straighten it out. And, it’s not any reflection when you admit “I need help!” Even Dirty Harry admitted “A man’s gotta know his limitations” – or something to that effect.

One thing we can straighten out is how to read the terminals on that switch. The AMP terminal means it goes to the negative terminal of the Ammeter – that is where battery current comes into the switch. (That terminal of the ammeter is probably where the wires to the light switch get connected as well). The other two terminals on the ignition switch are what we figured they would be. ACC is the Accessory terminal and a wire from that will go to the gauges, heater, radio(?) and other gadgets. The COIL is what I called the RUN terminal. That goes to the (+) terminal of the coil.

Your little light should help you figure those out as I tried to describe in the first post.

I know it is frustrating. Do you have the Service Manual for the ’52 truck? It will have a wiring diagram in it, not just a schematic. Those show point to point wire routing, not just connections – except it may just show a two-wire switch.

I’ll take some time to parse out your description of what you have, but I agree with BMorgil, our axle and transfer case guy, that magic smoke escaping from wiring is not as good thing and that finding some help would be a good idea.

[Wiotaman]

I have the service manual and used the F 134 diagram for hooking back up the wires as best as I could tell. Today I found my smoking wire issue was a bad spot in a wire coming through the firewall. I taped that up and put the old switch back in. Truck started up fine and seems to not be smoking as much. Then I tried shutting it off and as before it would not shut off. So I went to pull the battery cable to kill it and still it continued to run even after the cable was disconnected. It ran until the fuel that was in the carb ran out as I have an electric fuel pump on an aux switch that I shut off. I even disconnected the amp wire and the coil wire from the switch and it continued to run. I did not notice a hot coil today and had checked that out by disconnecting the wire from the hot side of coil to dist. I didn't warm up when I hooked the battery back up either. I have sent out requests to friend and acquaintances for suggestions but so far I have not had any responses. Old Willys are hard to kill I guess. You can't even get them to stop with a switch and no battery!

[bmorgil]

It is running off of the charging system. disconnect the wires from the generator/alternator and see if it shuts off.

[LarrBeard]

It is running off of the charging system. disconnect the wires from the generator/alternator and see if it shuts off.

We have been using alternator systems for so long we tend to forget that a generator can sefl-excite itself from residual magnetism in the field. Once it gets started, unlike an alternator system, a generator system can run itself without a battery – a trick many of us have used to our advantage at one time or another. (Moving the only good battery from car to car on a really cold morning… .)

You should have one and only one wire going to the + side of your coil.

It should go back to the COIL terminal of the switch.

For testing purposes, there should be only that one wire on the COIL terminal. There should be voltage on that terminal only when the AMP terminal is connected and the switch turned to the RUN position. Power on the COIL should go on and off with the switch being turned on and off. Disconnect everything from the ACC terminal as well. Let’s eliminate everything that is not necessary and add on as we verify that things are working properly.

You may have an extra wire somewhere.

On the generator you will see three terminals. One terminal is tied directly to the generator case. That is ground.

Of the other two terminals, one is generally larger than the others. This is the armature terminal, the terminal that brings power out of the generator. It may have an A stamped by it.

The smaller terminal is the field terminal, the terminal that the voltage regulator uses to control the output of the generator. It may have an F stamped by it, but generally not since the A is already identified.

If you disconnect the larger of the two terminals, the armature terminal, the charging system is out of the picture and the battery-switch-coil are all that should be involved.

The battery will crank the engine and run it, but the generator will not be charging the battery. Now that you have put the magic smoke back in the wires, things will be a bit less stressful!

[Wiotaman]

Thanks muchfor the additional suggestions. I plan on working on that. I just recalled that a family friend who is also restoring a 52 Willys said that he knew a retired mechanic that he was going to enlist for assistance. Maybe if I have no luck today I can get him to take a look. I also need to work on the brakes as they are fairly locked up. I was glad that when I had it running yesterday that when I put it in gear the driveline worked but would hardly move the truck because the brakes are seized up. I'm sure that getting them working will be an expereince but hopefully will not require mucho dinero.

[Wiotaman]

OK I went up and disconnected the generator exccept for the ground wire to the case of the voltage reg. Willys started fine on the battery so went to shut it off after a couple of minutes and though it seemed to hesitate for a second it kept running. It did shut off when I pulled the pos. cable. I had disconnected the ACC post on the new switch prior to this and thought I might as well switch the remaining wires on the switch. all the way CW started it but still the same run-on result. I did light test the generator with both Field and Arm disconnected and got no light when running. I hooked up the lower bolt which I interpret as field and got sparks on the post while doing this and this then got a bright light from the Arm. post I called a retired mechanic and he will come look at the situation if need be. I guess I need be.

[Wiotaman]

I disconnected the wires to the pos side of coil and ran a new wire direct from a powered position on the old Willys key switch to the pos side of coil. In the power on position I tried to start it but it would not even make a shot. Perhaps too light of wire and will pick some heavier up tomorrow. I think perhaps a new condenser also as it was not throwng much of a spark with that light wire. I talked to my friends mechanic buddy and he is willing to come take a look. Will post more when progress is made.