New Willys Jeep owner

[DougL]

Hello, I'm Doug. I recently purchased a nice restored 1952 M38A1 at the annual Turkey Run Car Show held at the Daytona Speedway.

I've discovered some minor issues - 1) oil leaks. I tighten a few bolts that has slowed the leaks. I'll be replacing some gaskets soon, to include the rear differential. 2) charging system. I don't know that much about it, but I believe it has a 24-volt generator with a step-down 12-volt voltage regulator (that appears new). However, when tested with a meter, it shows 17+ volts going to the battery which I don't believe is good for the life of the battery. I'm also considering a 12-volt alternator conversion kit. I need some assistance for that one!

Otherwise, I'm finally enjoying my new toy.

[gmwillys]

Welcome DougL,

Please post some pictures of your new purchase. We will help out on any information you may want to know. An alternator swap will be pretty easy in execution, the wiring will be the trick if your original military harness is complete. It is tough to splice into the original harness, and retain all functionality.

[LarrBeard]

I'm also considering a 12-volt alternator conversion kit. I need some assistance for that one! Otherwise, I'm finally enjoying my new toy.

The M38A1 had the 24-volt system to allow it to be set up quickly as a communications Jeep. In addition to just 24-volt power, the electrical system had a lot of shielding and filtering to keep electrical noise out of the on-board comm gear. A lot of the harness is shielded and doing anything but a patch job 12-volt conversion involves a lot of work to tear out things back to a good starting point. Lights, lamps and gauges and sensors will need to be changed.

I have to wonder if the starter has been changed to a 12-volt starter as well?

[bmorgil]

Sounds awesome. Post some pictures.

One of the things that drives the value of the Military Jeeps is a working 24 volt system. In 12 volt form an M38A1 becomes a majior step closer to a civilian CJ3B. I think if it is all there, I would be hard pressed to remove or cut into the original 24 volt system. I think you will find between Pelago, gmwillys and Larrbeard you have the original system covered. You may want to get some good pictures of all the components and wires on the vehicle. In particular a picture of the "step-down 12-volt voltage regulator (that appears new)". These guys have seen enough of the 24 volt systems to possibly spot something that will help.

[okiemark]

Yes, I would be glad to see a pic of that jeep. I am working on my own civilian model right now and I can tell you the water just keeps getting deeper.

[bmorgil]

the water just keeps getting deeper.

Haha, I love that quote! The good news is unlike a lot of restoration projects, the water can only get "so deep".

[DougL]

Thank you for your posts, however I seem to have some difficulty posting pictures.
I did learn (told you I was new) that the charging system consists of a 6-volt starter (Prestolite Part #MCH6207) and a 12-volt generator (Unit Parts Co - OKC, OK Part #GJC7012). Now how these work together is beyond my expertise. I do know via a meter that the system is supplying 17 + volts to the battery, which I was told will burn the battery over time. Personally, instead of trying to fix this, I am more inclined to convert it over to a 12-volt alternator system and be done with it! Thoughts?

[DougL]

5321. 5322

More pictures.

[bmorgil]

The 6 volt starter seems to perform nicely with 12 volts. There are some posts here about that. Many use the 6 volt starter on 12 volts. I was trained by LarrBeard and gmwillys to give it a try. It works well! The 6 volt starter has heavy wiring and contacts. It handles the current. It will not handle the heat of the current generated at 12 volts very well. So if you use the 6 volt starter with 12 volts, try to "stay off the key". A long cranking session will surely burn it up. It spins my motor up quickly. I think it reduces the cranking time because of the speed.

I am not at all versed in that 24 volt system. We need the boy's to jump in here, and they will I am sure. I think what you are seeing is the 24 volt system might use 2 12 volt batteries in series. This creates the 24 volts. I might be wrong but that would explain the 12 volt generator.

[gmwillys]

The starter is a 6 volt starter, and as Bmorgil said, leave it in because it will live just fine on 12 volts. The regulator may need some attention, because 17 volts is high for a 12 volt, (single battery). The regulator can be adjusted to where the voltage should be. LarrBeard has put together a presentation on how to do it, but I can't link items from out in the garage.....Or at least I haven't figured out how.

[bmorgil]

gmwillys, Do you think he has a 24 volt regulator in a converted 12 volt Jeep? Was there a 12 volt M38A1? How did they get the 24 volts?

[LarrBeard]

gmwillys, Do you think he has a 24 volt regulator in a converted 12 volt Jeep? Was there a 12 volt M38A1? How did they get the 24 volts?

One thing we've learned is to never say "Never".

But, the M38A1 was a 24-volt vehicle. It used two 12-volt batteries in series to get the 24-volts. The creature we are getting a description of is kind of a giraffelephant. We have a 6-volt starter, a 12-volt battery and a generator that is charging a 12-volt battery at 17-volts.

IF - and IF - he has a 24-volt generator driving a 12-volt regulator, it could charge that high. OR - if he still has a 24-volt system with just ONE 12-volt battery, that would explain the 17-volt charge voltage.

I would like to see pictures of:

A. The Generator. The original M38A1 generator can't be mistaken for anything else with the double pulleys and the cable set it used.

B. The voltage regulator: Again, nothing else looks like an M38A1 regulator with the two aircraft-like quick disconnect connectors on the unit.

But, as we have learned - when Bubba, Junior and Leroy go through the parts bin and whip up a contraption, it's really hard to reverse engineer it...

Please, some pictures of the generator and regulator.

[DougL]

5334 5335

The generator has "12-volt" stamped into the case (I know that means nothing) and from some research, everything says it's a 12-volt. The voltage regulator appears fairly new and I don't see an adjustment on it.

[gmwillys]

I believe in the 12 volt markings as being true. You can pull the cover off of the regulator and adjust the voltage output by adjusting the contacts. The following pdf explains the procedure;

http://www.ruiter.ca/mc/info/PDFs/1R-116.pdf

There was not a 12 volt M38A1 from new. With the expense of the 24 volt replacement parts and the fear of the unknown, many of these parts were swapped with 12 volt equipment. Me personally, I like the 24 set ups. The parts are heavy duty, and generally work without issue unless a harness has been spliced or dry rotted. The same can be said for 6 volt systems. I like my 2A because it has retained it's 6 volt system. The components are heavier, and produces more torque for starting, but can withstand having 12 volt applied for short amounts of time if you needed to jump it off....Just don't turn on any lights, because you'll be buying bulbs.

[LarrBeard]

5334 5335

The generator has "12-volt" stamped into the case (I know that means nothing) and from some research, everything says it's a 12-volt. The voltage regulator appears fairly new and I don't see an adjustment on it.

I think we're starting to see what's been done to the vehicle, a major 12-volt conversion that may or may not have been done well.

The voltage regulator is a commercial (vs. MIL-SPEC) regulator. The VBT photo is the original M38A1 regulator - obviously not what you have! We'll assume the generator is a 12-volt generator. The wires connecting to the regulator are a modified wiring harness that looks a lot like a factory harness (see the attached photo) with wires about the right color.

As a first step, I would replace the voltage regulator. You can adjust the voltage regulator relay a bit, (you have to open it up and bend a tab on a spring) but if it's putting out 17 volts, it's beyond adjusting. I suspect a stuck voltage regulator relay (points burned and welded together).

Here is one of the universal three-terminal (Field/Armature/Battery) regulators that fit most any of the two terminal generators:

https://www.autozone.com/starting-charging-and-miscellaneous-electrical/voltage-regulator/duralast-voltage-regulator/319661_0_0

Meter things out to be sure someone hasn't switched a wire somewhere.

How about a picture of the passenger side of the engine bay so we can see the wiring and how it may have been modified?

We'll figure this out.

(Oh by the way, a properly operating 12-volt system will work just fine...).

[DougL]

I installed the voltage regulator LarrBeard and after starting it, the new voltage regulator began smoking. The Arm wire melted and I probably fried the voltage regulator too. I did notice this regulator is 6-volt. Could that be the issue? Thanks.

[LarrBeard]

I installed the voltage regulator LarrBeard and after starting it, the new voltage regulator began smoking. The Arm wire melted and I probably fried the voltage regulator too. I did notice this regulator is 6-volt. Could that be the issue? Thanks.

I suspect that a 6-volt regulator on a 12-volt generator is going to be fried, especially if it has actually smoked. My suspicion is that the coil on the voltage regulator relay drew way too much current and burned out. Even if that relay opened and put the control resistance in series with the field, the 6-volt resistance could not limit the field current in the 12-volt generator and after that, it was a contest as to what was going to smoke next.

You have a generator that probably hasn't been damaged - they're tough critters - and your battery has been compromised by the 17-volt high current charge condition. In the short term, I'd try a 12-volt regulator and a new armature wire. If that settles things down, you probably should think about a new battery.

Again, make sure the wires are hooked up to the right places.

(I'm not going to make any smart aleck comments about letting out the magic smoke ... )

[gmwillys]

http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

[LarrBeard]

http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html
I

Ahhh man. This is a tough house.

[bmorgil]

http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

I laughed so hard I hurt my rib. I started laughing again and hurt my back so, I am not reading that ever again.

[LarrBeard]

I laughed so hard I hurt my rib. I started laughing again and hurt my back so, I am not reading that ever again.

You old guys are too frail to have fun.

Merry Christmas - Ho, Ho , HO!

(Real Christmas Trucks don't have little chubby cartoon fenders and beady plastic eye headlights ... )

[DougL]

What's confusing is the specs for the VR1261 voltage regulator from AutoZone says it's "12-volt" but on the actual regulator case it says "6-volt". And of course after smoking the new regulator, I believe AutoZone mislabeled this part.

[DougL]

5363

You tell me!

[bmorgil]

Clearly a Duralast 12 volt regulator. What the heck! That should have been the ticket. Now the question is, can they produce the right one?

[DougL]

Clearly a Duralast 12 volt regulator. What the heck! That should have been the ticket. Now the question is, can they produce the right one?

They cannot produce the correct one. It seems like I bought the last one AutoZone carried and it was packaged wrong. Then they referred me to Amazon for the Standard Motor Products VR-11. After some research, it's rated 6-volt only! NO, I need a 12-volt voltage regulator!!!

Here's another issue...(LMAO), the previous owner of my Willys bought the "civilian" speed-O which didn't work with the head unit in the dash. When I contacted Kaiser, they said I needed the "Military" speed-O...ok, I now have it and when I attempted to install it into the transfer case, it will not fit because of the protruding "lip" on the cable. Picture below...

5370

I'm at a loss :confused:

[LarrBeard]

I think, at least, you have a case to get your money back on the voltage regulator.

[bmorgil]

Something is wrong with the end on that cable. You are a magnet for bad parts. Look North into a mirror and throw salt over your left shoulder.

What the heck man!

[TJones]

DougL;

I had to buy a different speedo cable as well, the little lip on the end slides in a slot on the transfer case pin to drive the speedometer. If you need one that is square on both ends, I have one that I bought that didn't work.
If you slide the cable in the transfer case and turn the speedometer end it may line up and slip in the slot, it is a little bit of a Bi&^h to look up in there and see the slot but its there.

[bmorgil]

TJ are you saying the driven gear (pencil gear) in the transfer case had a slot in it? I have not seen that. All the ones I have seen took a square drive cable. Interesting.

[gmwillys]

Ford tractor tacks used the same set up. You would swear that you had it in place, but the booger would push back when you tightened the coller.

[DougL]

I think, at least, you have a case to get your money back on the voltage regulator.

Yes, I'll be getting a refund for that debacle.

[DougL]

I originally had the "civilian" speedO cable and that didn't work with the head unit. It was Kaiser who sold me the "military" version and this is cable that has the "little lip" you mentioned. I've looked into the transfer case and slid a flathead screwdriver into the hole and felt no slot. Mike from Kaiser is researching this one.


DougL;

I had to buy a different speedo cable as well, the little lip on the end slides in a slot on the transfer case pin to drive the speedometer. If you need one that is square on both ends, I have one that I bought that didn't work.
If you slide the cable in the transfer case and turn the speedometer end it may line up and slip in the slot, it is a little bit of a Bi&^h to look up in there and see the slot but its there.

[DougL]

TJ are you saying the driven gear (pencil gear) in the transfer case had a slot in it? I have not seen that. All the ones I have seen took a square drive cable. Interesting.

No, the "pencil gear" doesn't have the slot and will not match up with the "military" speedO cable I now have.

[bmorgil]

I am not aware of any type of pencil gear on a Dana 18 other than the square female cable drive. I am wondering if you should take a 7/8" deep socket and pull the pencil gear out and take a look.

[TJones]

I will post a picture of mine later, as soon as I get my last minute Christmas shopping done!!!!

[TJones]

Here is what is in my Dana 18 for speedO drive and cable

539853995400

[bmorgil]

TJ, that is a waterproof speedo setup. I have never seen one on the 18 but, I am reading the M38A1 and MB did have a waterproof set up. The military guys probably knew that one!

DougL, It sounds like the trouble is at the speedometer is that right? You have a square drive in the transfer case and something else in the speedometer? Does the military cable fit into the speedometer?

[DougL]

I actually have both speedO's (military & civilian) and right now the only thing I haven't replaced is the actual head unit (speedometer). I was told the civilian speedO wouldn't work with the head unit so I purchased the military cable that is the same setup as the pictures TJ sent. However, I have not removed the drive gear. That goes beyond the scope of my abilities and with my luck, something will go wrong if I remove it! In the meantime, I'm finding a lot of spliced and frayed wiring to keep me busy until my 12-volt voltage regulator arrives and pray that corrects my charging issues. :confused:

[DougL]

I am not aware of any type of pencil gear on a Dana 18 other than the square female cable drive. I am wondering if you should take a 7/8" deep socket and pull the pencil gear out and take a look.

If it's nothing more than a 7/8" socket to remove the pencil gear to look, then I'll give a shot.

[bmorgil]

That's it Dougl, It should be a 7/8" deep socket. However I think TJ has shown us what you will find. As TJ said that military cable will only line up in one exact spot. It is going to take spinning the speedo end of the cable while gently pushing the cable into the transfer case.

[TJones]

Dougl it is pretty simple to take out, just loosen the 7/8 nut and pull it off and the pencil gear will pull right out so you can look at it and you’ll be able to see which cable end you have. You may loose a little oil out of your transfer case because the fill level and the 7/8 nut are the same level.

[DougL]

Dougl it is pretty simple to take out, just loosen the 7/8 nut and pull it off and the pencil gear will pull right out so you can look at it and you’ll be able to see which cable end you have. You may loose a little oil out of your transfer case because the fill level and the 7/8 nut are the same level.

Thanks TJ - if I don't have the correct pencil gear, do you where I can purchase the correct one?

[TJones]

We’ll find you one I’m sure, I’ll start looking around!!!
Worse comes to worse you could always drill the one you have and cut a slot in it to make it work.

[TJones]

Here you go dougl


5416

It’s on eBay

[bmorgil]

Doug, the speedometer driven gear (pencil gear) is unique to the sleeve it fits into. I am pretty sure there are 2 different waterproof sleeve/driven gear combinations out there. One long and one short.

Buy them as a set. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Willys-M38A1-Speedometer-Driven-Gear-And-Bushing-NOS-G-758-/183334433006

If you go to a civilian set up, also buy them as a set.

I am not convinced anything is wrong with yours yet. I think the issue might be in getting the cable to line up. I like the idea of pulling it out and taking a look if it just wont go. Don't force it. If it wont go in easily, take a look for sure. Send us some pictures Doug.

[DougL]

Here are some pics of the gear...the more I think about it, I'm beginning to wonder if the actual speedo head isn't somehow bad.
541954185420

[bmorgil]

That is the standard square cable drive set up. You have the wrong end on the cable there that is for sure.

[bmorgil]

One thing, both cables should fit into the back of the speedometer. As far as I can find the only thing unique on the military is the waterproof drive. The speedometer end appears to be the same. It seems like a standard CJ3B cable should do the trick. If it wont go into the back of the speedometer it is possible there is an issue there. It is not uncommon for the cable to break off inside the speedometer. The broken piece can be very difficult to get out. If it's in there you wont be able to insert the cable.

[TJones]

Doug, don't buy one..
I have exactly what you need then, I ordered my speedometer from "Southwest Speed" and they sent me a cable with the speedometer by accident and when I called them they said keep it you may need it one day, and the day has come:):).
Here is what I have


54215422

Just send me a private message with your contact info. and I will ship it to you.

[DougL]

Thanks TJ, but I have both speedo cables (1 just like yours) - there’s no reason why one of my cables shouldn’t work (Military version needs the correct pencil gear). I took the speedometer out and I believe it’s the problem.

[DougL]

I've got my speedo working. It was the actual gauge that was bad and I was able to use the "civilian" speedo cable. I rewired a lot of frayed and spliced wires behind the dash only to find out none of my lights work :confused: - so, back under the dash I go to figure out what didn't get hooked back up. Another issue is the fuel gauge pegged out at "full". I hooked up a ground wire to the gauge thinking that was the issue and it's not. Spoke to Mark at Kaiser Willys who said the gauge needs to match the sending unit. I'm not sure if it does. One more thing, the charging system. I changed out the 12-volt voltage regulator with a new one. The system is still charging at over 18-volts. Next week I'm taking it to a local business that specializes in automotive electrical. I want to have all the kinks worked out in time for the annual Jeep Run on Daytona Beach in April.

[LarrBeard]

Next week I'm taking it to a local business that specializes in automotive electrical.

That's a wise move. We get to the Dirty Harry stage; "It's a wise man who knows his limitations".

Try as we do, we can only guess so much without getting greasy or skinning our knuckles along with you

A. If the system is charging at 18-volts, it may be good that you don't have lights yet - or you might have flashbulbs that turned into dark bulbs.

B. 18-volts may be contributing to the "FULL" gauge as well. Whoever did the conversion may have only changed the fuel gauge, the sender, neither or both. And, you never know what he changed them to!

It's back to Jeep Rule 1: Believe only what you see; trust nothing someone wrote down or told you...

I am still curious why you are getting the 18-volt charge, maybe an internal ground on the field coils? When the shop finds the issue, have them tell you what it was , not the usual "Well, it's fixed now". It will go in the catalog of things we can help someone else with later on.

You're gonna' make party - but you have to post pictures ... !

[DougL]

My light issue was magnified to a complete meltdown. What I believed based upon the wire length was it belonged on the battery post on the back of the ignition. So I touched the wire to the post, turned on the lights and they worked! However, I did notice a little smoke upon touching the wire to that post. I went ahead and connected it to the battery post on the back of the ignition, reattached the battery terminal and had nothing. No lights, no ignition, nadda, zilch. No power at all. This is so frustrating and challenging. Is it possible I fried the ignition switch? Does the lights connect to the ignition battery post?

[bmorgil]

DougL, I truly believe at this point, get the wiring diagram in front of you. If you don't understand it, I would not hesitate to find someone who does. Give them the diagram and let them "have at it". I think we can walk you through a lot on the written word. At some point you are going to have to use the meter and the schematic. If you are not comfortable with that, not to worry! Many are not familiar with wiring, especially 1952 stuff! There is no "Plug and Play" here. I would hate to see "irreplaceable smoke" emitting from whatever someone has hooked up.

If we were close it wouldn't take long with a Volt Ohm Meter and a circuit diagram to get you on your feet. This is basic DC circuitry. A person who knows that will breeze right through it for you.

[gmwillys]

You can Google the wiring diagram, and you can see what wire goes were. My first reaction would be that the fuse is popped on the light switch itself because if my recollection is correct the power goes to the light switch first, then to the ignition switch. I'll look in my book to see if I'm correct in the morning.

Looks like you are about a five hour drive from our rust ranch, if all else fails.

[DougL]

I honestly believe my biggest issue is the voltage. We all know the M38A1 was originally 24-volt which mine is not. From what I'm seeing, it's a mixed bag of gauges, different voltages and a wiring debacle. Monday morning I'll make an appointment with a reputable automotive electrical business nearby, take it there and tell them to call me when it's fixed. Problem solved.

[bmorgil]

Wise choice Doug! Put your energy into what you can get done in time for the show.

[Jallen1795]

Welcome Doug, I am a new member also trying to find proper navigation through the forum. Sounds like an awesome jeep!! Don't know if I am comfortable suggesting anything, being new and all but, no in harm in thoughts. I am all about the more original the better minded. Kaiser I'm sure has the parts to sustain your 24 volt systems. Tough call. My jeep was already converted to 12 volt when purchased and recently had to replace the alternator which has a built in regulator and diode bridge. $60 dollars for a Delco Rem alternator. No volt regulator, compatible 12vdc through out. I do not plan on selling my jeep so I need something, maintenance friendly and my 12v systems do that. If more original it is, the more value it holds. I sure the ultra enthusiast would agree and keep it 24. Have fun with your new toy. I know I am. Everytime I go into my garage, even on a bad day, I smile when I see my jeep. Respectfully Jim

[DougL]

Welcome Doug, I am a new member also trying to find proper navigation through the forum. Sounds like an awesome jeep!! Don't know if I am comfortable suggesting anything, being new and all but, no in harm in thoughts. I am all about the more original the better minded. Kaiser I'm sure has the parts to sustain your 24 volt systems. Tough call. My jeep was already converted to 12 volt when purchased and recently had to replace the alternator which has a built in regulator and diode bridge. $60 dollars for a Delco Rem alternator. No volt regulator, compatible 12vdc through out. I do not plan on selling my jeep so I need something, maintenance friendly and my 12v systems do that. If more original it is, the more value it holds. I sure the ultra enthusiast would agree and keep it 24. Have fun with your new toy. I know I am. Everytime I go into my garage, even on a bad day, I smile when I see my jeep. Respectfully Jim

Thanks for the input Jim. My system is mostly 12-volt already with a few exceptions that I'm trying to figure out. I was able to find a wire that accidentally fell off while replacing some frayed and spliced wiring. Once I found out where that wire came from, my Jeep started again! Huge relief as you may imagine. I am taking it to a Automotive Electrical shop this week to have them diagnose why I'm putting out 18+ volts to the battery. After that is fixed, I will work on other details to my liking. Good luck with your project, they are a lot of fun!

[DougL]

Got the electrical problem finally solved - two wires from the generator to the voltage regulator where crossed causing the generator to bypass the regulator altogether. Next week the ole girl goes into the transmission shop for an overhaul of the transfer case. I'm going to have them go through and repair and/or fix whatever may ail her and reseal. Hopefully that will slow down the steady flow of 90 weight!!! I'm now looking for the right size ammo cans to cut up and install 6x9 speakers in them for some music. Thanks for everyone's help!

[DougL]

Here are some recent photos. 5475 5476 5477 5478 5479

[okiemark]

Looking good!

[bmorgil]

Doug, be sure when they fill that trans and case back up, they use the right lube. It MUST be for synchronized transmissions. No EP additives should be in it. It (EP additives) have a few bad effects on synchronizer's, especially brass ones. I cannot tell you how many times someone put standard 90wt or 140wt gear oil into a bronze synchronized transmission, only to complain that now it is miserable to shift. Once its in there for a while, it usually effects the synchro's for good.

First and foremost the common UN-spoken concept of the synchro, is not discussed in the "Lube" conversation. The synchro in the T90 is a brass cone clutch. As the shift collar is moved it engages the teeth on the synchro and the inside of the synchro (the cone) presses against the machined surface of the next gear, this pressure spins the next gear up to speed and the shift is "synchronized". Any EP additive impairs the pressure of the cone pressing against the gear to spin it up. This just screws up the shift.

Next is the incompatibility of EP additives and brass synchro's. Most EP additives are corrosive to brass. There is a You Tube Video out there that is not quite accurate so, be careful! There is however some pretty good stuff put out by the manufactures. As always, dropping a line to the Tech Department at your preferred supplier is the way to go if you want to be sure of what you are buying. If they can't answer your questions with fact, buy elsewhere.

I use Red Line MT90. I love it. Thin but still has a 90wt rating. In Older manual geared Muscle cars it is a fast shifting lube.

[DougL]

I'm on the Amsoil website and I don't find the MT90 you speak of. Is it possibly under a different name? I saw a "Severe Gear" 80W-90 that's synthetic, but no MT90. Can you provide me a Product Code from Amsoil? Thanks!

[bmorgil]

Whoops! Sorry about that. It's Red Line.

https://www.redlineoil.com/gear-oil-for-manual-transmissions

[okiemark]

I am glad to learn about this. I had bought some 90wt to put in everything and sure enough it is EP or extreme pressure. Is there any reason not to use it in the differentials?

[bmorgil]

It MUST be used in the differentials. The gear design in the differential is different than the gears in the transmission. The differential gears are of a Hypoid design. Without getting into the design of Hypoid's, suffice it to say there is a significant amount of "sliding" as the gear teeth mesh. An EP of the best quality is required to keep it functioning. There is a tech document in the Tech Article section https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2326-Spicer-Service-Manual-Failure-Analysis-AXSM-0020-Dec-2015 that shows you just what will happen. This is a Heavy Axle document but the failure section is spot on for any Hypoid gear set.

Do not feel like you missed something. Since 1900, every service station had 1 bucket of gear lube and one pump. I exaggerate of course but, I can't tell you how many warranty issues are created by this. I did it myself as a 15 year old mechanic working at the SOHIO service station. You put it in the air, you pulled the plugs, you topped it all off with "Gear Lube".

There are surely many "Mechanics" who will tell you "I always did it this way, I never had any problems!" Unfortunately, they are not quite correct. I would have loved to invite them to a warranty failure tear down analysis many miles after they did their "Job".

[DougL]

It MUST be used in the differentials. The gear design in the differential is different than the gears in the transmission. The differential gears are of a Hypoid design. Without getting into the design of Hypoid's, suffice it to say there is a significant amount of "sliding" as the gear teeth mesh. An EP of the best quality is required to keep it functioning. There is a tech document in the Tech Article section https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2326-Spicer-Service-Manual-Failure-Analysis-AXSM-0020-Dec-2015 that shows you just what will happen. This is a Heavy Axle document but the failure section is spot on for any Hypoid gear set.

Do not feel like you missed something. Since 1900, every service station had 1 bucket of gear lube and one pump. I exaggerate of course but, I can't tell you how many warranty issues are created by this. I did it myself as a 15 year old mechanic working at the SOHIO service station. You put it in the air, you pulled the plugs, you topped it all off with "Gear Lube".

There are surely many "Mechanics" who will tell you "I always did it this way, I never had any problems!" Unfortunately, they are not quite correct. I would have loved to invite them to a warranty failure tear down analysis many miles after they did their "Job".

Good morning! Would it be ok to dump all the fluids (differential & transfer case) and replace them with the RedLine MT90?

[bmorgil]

Not the Differential. It needs the EP big time. Two different Lubes. In the trans no EP, in the Diff, EP.

[gmwillys]

It would be nice to be able to have a one size fits all, but it is very important to use the correct lube, as Bmorgil has stated.

[okiemark]

Good information. You know, what's interesting is that in these farm tractors they have basically the same type of ring gear and pinion and they use a hydraulic oil in everything and the heat gets much higher in those. Do you suppose the gears are made of a different type steel for these? That oil looks to be no more than about 30 wt.

[bmorgil]

Well we are getting close to going off the deep end of gear design! okiemark you have the greatest questions!

The design of the gear set, the amount of cooling lubricant available, the additive package in the oil, if there are wet brakes in the trans-axle, just some of the considerations. Hydraulic oil (not hydraulic fluid) is packed with additives to make an oil act like a hydraulic fluid and vice versa. My Ford tractor takes the same Hydraulic Oil in the only fill hole there is in it. It lubes and runs everything. My IH tractor uses Hydraulic Fluid and Gear oil the two systems are isolated. One of many important considerations in gear design is noise and heat. The Hypoids came after the first design of "Spur Gears". Spur gears ran on anything. Usually Whale oil or Mineral Oil and in more modern times, engine oil. Spurs are straight cut gears. Loud and strong, and warm running under load. Not real good with high speed. The Hypoids were able to reduce the noise dramatically. Consequently the heat was better controlled under load. An EP additive in the oil was required. In addition gear speed in application is considered in the gear life. There are many aspects to the actual tooth design now. Compromises are made based on the application.

For us Jeepers, stick to no EP in the synchronized transmissions/transaxle assembly. EP in the Axles.

[okiemark]

I bet whale oil is hard to find.

[okiemark]

I have a combine that has hydrostatic drive and everything, reel drive motor, steering, header lift, hydrostat, steering, everything except the final drives run Dexron II.

[bmorgil]

Dextron II is really good stuff! Whale oil is tough to find! Ha ha could you imagine? That would anger a "Group" or two. Whales dying to lube a Jeep.

[gmwillys]

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the GM corporate limited slip differential friction modifier, (sold at the dealership only for around $12 for a 4 ounce bottle) was whale oil. I remember it having a distinctive odor beyond the normal stink of the gear lube.

[bmorgil]

Ah the infamous "Skunk Oil". Friction modifier was the official name. It did stink! I think Mopar had it also. Still needed on clutch style posi-tractions today. Though I don't know if its Whale oil!

[DougL]

I had to replace my oil gauge. Item #A1198 (Kaiser Willys) is the 10" high pressure hose from the engine block to the SS tubing. My question is, can the high pressure hose be retrofitted to connect to the back of the oil pressure gauge to eliminate the SS tubing? Or does anyone know where I can purchase a long length of high pressure hose for the gauge?

[LarrBeard]

I had to replace my oil gauge. Item #A1198 (Kaiser Willys) is the 10" high pressure hose from the engine block to the SS tubing. My question is, can the high pressure hose be retrofitted to connect to the back of the oil pressure gauge to eliminate the SS tubing? Or does anyone know where I can purchase a long length of high pressure hose for the gauge?

At 45 PSI max I wouldn't consider that a high pressure hose by any means.

If you want to convert the metal line from the fire wall to the gauge to something else, look at KW P/N B0631 on page 209 of the 2019 catalog.

Alternately, just about any hose shop can make up a length of hose with the proper fittings on either end.

Good Luck.

[bmorgil]

If I remember correctly, those are just compression fittings on the lines and gauge ends, and 1/8" pipe into the block.

[TJones]

Is you want to run 1/8” or 3/16” copper you could use either 1/8”or 3/16” compression or a flared fitting and run it from the block to the gauge with the right adapters.

[okiemark]

I bought a pressure gauge kit from NAPA and it had all the fittings and hose to make it work.

[DougL]

Finally got my Jeep ready to enjoy! First adventure this Sunday! Quick question, what engine oil is recommended in the F-134 and how many quarts?

[bmorgil]

DougL, a good subject for the tech section. I will add it to the TECH area. The long answer!

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2419-The-right-Motor-Oil

There is a lot written on the WWW about what oil to use in your classic vehicle. There are two important things you should do. First stick to the SAE weight specified in the service manual. The weight of oil you use in anything depends on the engineering requirements for the operating temperature of the oil. So the hotter you run the oil, the thicker it must be. This is why you see such high weight oils used in Racing where the oil can exceed 300 degrees. For the little 134's if the Ambient temperature is not going to be lower than 32 Deg F, the weight recommendation is 30W. If it is going to be colder than 32 but not under 10 the service manual recommends 20W. If it is going to be -10 the recommendation is 10W. Finally if it gets colder than that, 5W. Second it needs to have a high wear additive (ZDDP). So a good High ZDDP 10W-30 will work well for most of us. The 10W indicates additives that make it work in the cold environment needed for 10W, as well as the warmer weather 30W requirement. No need to worry about multi viscosity or straight weight, either will do. As long as the SAE weight is there for the ambient temperature, the "cold weight" number (the 10W in 10W-30) is the additive package extending the range of the oil.

So for mine I use Valvoline VR1 10W 30. This is about the highest load capable, high ZDDP street-able oil I could find. It proves out on top in testing. One of those can't go wrong oils. There are a few brands however that will work just fine.

The most important aspect of the oil in a classic flat tappet engine is the amount of Zinc it contains (ZDDP). There are two things that need attention. The camshaft lifter design requires a high wear protector (Zinc). The low oil pressure inherent at idle, requires a high film strength. Finally if the engine sets a lot, a good anti-rust additive.

I would not use the synthetic version of VR1 or any synthetic. You would have to be very sure the piston rings and cylinder finish, seals, gaskets and sealants are compatible, before considering synthetics. Most oils intended for Diesel applications have ZDDP wear additives. They usually have way to much detergent for a gasoline engine however. This can cause foaming in the higher RPM environments of a gasoline engine, and starve the bearings. If you use a diesel oil, you must be sure it is compatible with Gasoline engines. There are some combination Gas/Diesel oils out there.

[Kev1963]

Welcome to the group Doug. Looks like the paint and body are pretty solid on that 52.

[DougL]

Thank you Kev1963. I got it from the annual Turkey Rod Run at the Daytona Speedway. I'm very happy with it.