Transfer Case Blues?

[WaybackWillys]

HI Jeepers!

My 63 Utility Wagon, 4-WD w/230 Tornado, all original, has lost power to the rear wheels!? No bangs or booms---just no grab. Front drive is fine. How should I troubleshoot to narrow to the transfer case? Or what is a common failure that produces this result? Other than removing the case & disassembling (UGH)...do I safely prop up rear end and see what spins?
Any helpful thoughts greatly appreciated!
Thanks
Wayback Willys

[LarrBeard]

Ugh - but she just keeps clawing along!

Very nice wagon.

Dr. Dana (BMorgil, the axle Doctor) will probably chime in here pretty quickly and give a real expert opinion and diagnosis.

[bmorgil]

Wayback, I am not sure about the credentials Larry applied but, here's an opinion!

If you crawl underneath with the motor off and transmission in gear, transfer case engaged in 2 wheel drive, can you grab the rear driveshaft and turn it? If you can, does the truck try to move (power from the driveshaft to the axle via your arms). We need to be sure the transfer case is the culprit and not the rear axle. If it is the transfer case, it could to be a broken output shaft or gear. I would expect a lot of noise. Failures like this with a Dana 18 would be uncommon with stock engines. If the propeller shaft wont turn by hand with all your might, put the transfer case in neutral. If the propeller shaft turns but the vehicle doesn't move, my money is on a broken axle shaft. Let us know.

[gmwillys]

Welcome way back Willys!
Great looking wagon!

The Dana 18 transfer case is pretty much bullet proof. I am with Bmorgil in his assessment. The rear axles are keyed to the hubs, so it is typically the weak link in the system.

[okiemark]

How many times have we had a problem and assumed the worst and then found out it is the simplest thing to fix?

[gmwillys]

Troubleshooting starts with K. I. S. S. Keep it simple stupid. Easy things first, then go deeper.

[WaybackWillys]

LarrBeard
I'm beginning to respond to all the great input but am not too savvy with the site---please know I really appreciate you getting the ball rolling on this one! Amazingly, the 2 (only) previous owners of the wagon protected it and didn't get crazy with it. "Precious" has some body blems but is 'factory' other than that...crazy!

[WaybackWillys]

GM Willys

Thanks for this! I HAVE been working on the brakes and learning about he tapered keys----hmmmm----need to double check those!!

[WaybackWillys]

NO Lie!
I jumped to the worst case scenario on this----even considered cutting open the floor to ease access to the TC....but only for a moment!

[WaybackWillys]

OK bmorgil---this will be my move. I HAVE been working on the rear brakes and tapered keys and will check those too. Up to this point no noise when trying to get rear wheel power....
Questions:
Turning the driveshaft WITH REAR WHEELS UP, correct? Pretty sure I couldn't move the truck either way if not! :))
Embarrassing Question:
"Propeller Shaft" ...the driveshaft/u-joint connection on the front of the rear differential, correct? (duh)
Thank you for this guidance....it prevents me from cutting out a section of the floor pan and staring at the TC!!

"Im old enough to realize what a wealth of knowledge anyone over 50 can be....what will the Millennials do when we're all dead???"

[LarrBeard]

"I'm old enough to realize what a wealth of knowledge anyone over 50 can be....what will the Millennials do when we're all dead???"

If we correspond in cursive they will never break the code.

Last week I was at my buddy's shop and he had a 4x4 F-150 that had a failed rear wheel bearing. It finally froze up and cut the rear axle. The real damage came when things folded up and skidded on the ground.

Let's hope simple...

[bmorgil]

No cutting allowed Wayback. To get the transfer case out isn't as bad as you think.

Keep it on the ground, you will be surprised how well you can move your truck with your arms. The big gear ratio in the axle is a help. My fault on the terminology, old habit! A Propeller Shaft is a Driveshaft. It includes the tube and the u joints. Grab a hold of the tube. Keep it on the ground. I want to see if you can grab the tube with the transfer case in gear and move your truck a small amount, by twisting the tube of the Propeller shaft with your hands. Make no mistake your not going far here. We are trying to see if the Propeller shaft will turn the pinion on the axle and propel the vehicle. You shouldn't be able to do much here. You can certainly put it in the air and try it that way also. The point here is if you are able to move your vehicle a foot or so with you hands turning on the shaft, the engine is not engaged. The transfer case would have to be disconnected for you to be able to do this. If you put the transfer case in neutral and you can now spin the Propeller shaft and the vehicle doesn't move, the rear axle has an issue.

[WaybackWillys]

HAHAH
The cutting thought was in a weak moment......
I will do as you requested Obi Wan....since we seem to have time on our hands......stay tuned for the report!!

[WaybackWillys]

Love this!!

[LarrBeard]

Love this!!

It gets worse than this. It's still too early for yardwork and we're restricted to quarters!

[bmorgil]

Hid in the barn all day. Working on the boat. Wood burning heat, quiet, refrigerator. Fishing pole needs cleaning. Wife working from home, son college grad school from home, not quiet..... the barn is a wonderful thing.

[TJones]

If we correspond in cursive they will never break the code.

Last week I was at my buddy's shop and he had a 4x4 F-150 that had a failed rear wheel bearing. It finally froze up and cut the rear axle. The real damage came when things folded up and skidded on the ground.

Let's hope simple...


That’s Freaking Hilarious LarrBeard, if we correspond in cursive:D:D

[LarrBeard]

"son college grad school"

Is that the Big D or is there another one still hanging around?

[bmorgil]

That's him!

[okiemark]

I put a power steering in a 2009 Ford Pickup today. It was about a 5 hour job. I hope I never have to do that again. I think they started building it with a power steering pump and add parts all around it until they had a vehicle. Talking about a rear wheel bearing locking up, I had a 1991 3/4 ton Ford diesel pickup that I worked out of and a rear wheel bearing locked up and actually chewed the tread off the tire all the way down to the steel. I backed it up and forward a little and it freed up. Limped back to town and put it up on the rack. It welded the race to the hub.

[WaybackWillys]

So bmoril-if you're willing to continue the conversation?

Some transfer case tests have ensued: All done with front wheels chocked and rears off the ground one inch with 2 jack-stands and a hydraulic jack for good luck under the differential. I'll try to be clear.

#1 With everything in neutral, transmission & TC, I can roll the shaft manually and turn the passenger side rear tire.

#2 With the transfer case in neutral, and the tranny in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, I can start the engine,drop the clutch and the shaft does not move.

#3 Then I ran out of gas in my own driveway and will need to try again tomorrow!!

Stay Healthy!!

[gmwillys]

They'll go to our estate sales a stock up on flannel/work shirts to make it look like they really do know everything.... Oh wait, I'm thinking of hipsters. Same difference.

If the drive shaft, (propeller shaft/tumble rod for our British friends) turns when the wagon is on the ground, then you absolutely have a damaged/missing key way.

If you are careful you can raise the rear wheels and place the axle on sturdy jack stands, they put the transmission in gear with the engine at idle. Then you can look up underneath to verify the drive shaft is turning. Have a helper sit in the driver's seat to shut things down in an emergency.

There are no silly or dumb questions, please keep us in the loop on your progress!

[bmorgil]

I love the ran out of gas part! Truly "things that go wrong". The last thing you would expect in the middle of the test.

Well, the wheel turning is good, however it has zero load on it. You don't need the engine running now, your last test showed there is some transfer to the driveshaft. Let's stress it a little. I would leave it off. Get two more people (stipends may be required). Try the test with the motor off. Have someone holding both rear tires with all their might.Try to turn the tube. If you flip someone around at the wheel when you turn the tube, this is promising, for the axle's integrity. Put the transfer case in gear, and the Transmission in gear. You had better not be able to turn the tube.

[bmorgil]

Talking about a rear wheel bearing locking up, I had a 1991 3/4 ton Ford diesel pickup that I worked out of and a rear wheel bearing locked up and actually chewed the tread off the tire all the way down to the steel. I backed it up and forward a little and it freed up. Limped back to town and put it up on the rack. It welded the race to the hub.

Ha ha! I have a few axle stories, from test cell disasters to some wild road stuff. My favorite was when in a Baja event through a small town intersection, some questionable moves from a competitor, sent a large wheel and partial axle shaft across the hood and it landed in front of a coffee shop smokin'. No one hurt, no coffee spilled. I can also say you haven't lived until you burn one so bad it melts off and passes you. A very bad vision to say the least!

In all seriousness, if gm is correct and I have a feeling he is, that axle will get very damaged as it melts off.

[gmwillys]

Not as certain as a GM corporate C clip axle failing and passing you. With the Dana being an open differential, the probability of the axle nut backing off enough to allow the hub to fall off is low.

LarrBeard has a great plan. Cursive will confuse the crap out of them!

[WaybackWillys]

Gentlemen-
While further testing is continuing regarding the transfer case---I don't mean to digress BUT---am I wrong in thinking that with rear wheels elevated, engine on, transfer case in neutral, tranny in 1st , 2nd or 3rd with clutch engaged.....the drive shaft should be moving???? And at least one of the rear wheels as well??
So, engine on, TC in neutral, clutch engaged, rear elevated....shaft dead. What am I missing?

As background...with all wheels on the ground and TC engaged....front drive moves me down the street.

This is a bit off the TC topic...but your thoughts are appreciated!!

[bmorgil]

With the transfer case in neutral there will be no power transferred to the front or rear. With the transfer case in 2 wheel drive power is to the rear only. Transfer case in 4 wheel drive power is to the front and rear. There is not a power to the front only option.

gm and I are of the strong belief the rear hub is slipping on the axle shaft. With the vehicle in the air, motor off. holding both rear tires solid, try to turn the tube. If you can the axle has a problem. Put the transfer case in gear, and the Transmission in gear, Clutch engaged (foot off the pedal). You had better not be able to turn the tube. If you can the Transfer case has an issue.

[okiemark]

Or put the transfer case in 2wd, tranny in gear, engine off. Jack up one wheel and see if you can roll it. If you can is the driveshaft turning? If not it is axle, if it is transfer case. Different way to get to the same place.

[WaybackWillys]

Gentlemen this is great info!
I was ignorant that the TC needs to be engaged, with Aux Range in neutral, to continue power to the rear!!
I will try all the tests today and report back!
5773

I've uploaded and image of my shift pattern just to be sure we're using the same lingo----not sure it will come through

Also added Eye Candy as the reward for your efforts-----found (free!) a Jerry can from 51 and am cleaning it and applying Presidential Red
5774

[bmorgil]

Woe Wayback, when the transfer case auxiliary range is in neutral, nothing moves. When the front axle drive is "IN" there is power to the front and rear. When it is "OUT", there is power to the rear only. When the Auxiliary range is in "LOW" the transfer case is in its lower gear. When it is in "HIGH" the transfer case is in direct.

[WaybackWillys]

SOoooooooooooo

Street driving is OUT & HIGH....correct?

Pretty embarrassed to say I think lack of complete knowledge over the years of IN/OUT/HIGH/LOW on these rigs is the root of my 'so called' dilemma...

Your continued patiience and wisdom is MUCH appreciated!!!

[WaybackWillys]

5776
More eye candy----T-shirts we are starting to produce for fun..

[bmorgil]

First and foremost I want a T-shirt. XL please.

Correct, street driving is OUT and HIGH.

Buy the owners manual (glove box manual). It is the best way to understand how to drive your Willys. These old classics have several things about them that make them difficult to drive, if you are used to modern vehicles. A Dana 18 transfer case is a far cry from today's Jeep's transfer case. It has two sticks, just to make a point. If you are going to work on it get a factory manual. There are more things that are unique when you start wrenching. If the book seems to be confusing, drop on line here and we will walk you through it. I would not try to drive or work on it without the books. You would hate to break something painful!

[gmwillys]

Let us know what you want for the shirts. I'll even throw on a little more to get Dr. Dana put on Bmorgil's shirt.

Great find on the gas can!

[bmorgil]

Let us know what you want for the shirts. I'll even throw on a little more to get Dr. Dana put on Bmorgil's shirt.

"Dr. Dana".... So LarrBeard gets his revenge. What did he say about "payback"? I can run but, I cannot hide.

Wayback, stay with it, your going to love that truck!

[WaybackWillys]

Ok Gentlemen--let me put together some shirts for you....right now I'm just working with black on white----but would consider black on grey?

I'm also a fan of larger logos on the back...California Style....but since these are customs...do either of you have a preference? And Yes, 'Dr. Dana' over the left front chest...I need gmwillys size plz....and will need to stare at the site as how to get your shipping/mailing addresses? And look closely at the logo thumbnails in the previous message....2 different logos...what are your choices please?

Truck is already a hit in the neighborhood----had it covered in lights in the drive over Christmas...lot of folks took pics! I will consider my Transfer Case Blues resolved due to ignorance on my part...but a great lesson from great teachers!

I have the service Manual in the pics----with a random detail page for you----from Originalreproductions.com. I don't think this is the glovebox version? What manual is suggested? I also have the Jeep Tornado 230 Engine Guide.

Next up...finish brakes on on to a remanf. Holley 2 barrel!!

Stay safe out there!!

[bmorgil]

Black on Grey, first logo with a large logo on the back, or what ever you decide! Private Message me on this site when your ready, and I can send you my address.

Which manual do you have? This is the one I was thinking of for the "Glove Box Manual". https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/literature/owners-manuals/owners-manual-fits-56-64-truck

It is for the Truck however. If yours is for your Wagon your all set. The Truck manual and Station wagon manual would be similar. Is yours considered a Station Wagon? We will need someone familiar with the Utility Wagon's to chime in . It sounds like you may have found the right one.

[LarrBeard]

"Dr. Dana".... So LarrBeard gets his revenge. What did he say about "payback"? I can run but, I cannot hide.

Wayback, stay with it, your going to love that truck!

BMorgil - you are indeed the "Doc" for anything that was ever built by the Spicer Division of the Dana Corp. "Dr. Dana" has a ring to it and it is more than one of those honorary degrees that politicians and education wanabees get thrown at them.

Enjoy it!

[gmwillys]

Utility wagon and station wagon are the same thing in Willys terms. Then add sedan delivery for the ambulance style doors on the rear, and no side windows . Then throw in a Parkway conversion to where the dealer would cut out the sides for windows to convert their stock of delivery wagons into passenger wagons.... Never say Willys never, as coined by LarrBeard.

[WaybackWillys]

5788
Here's the manual Im going by....definitely 50s-60s style....but all the important stuff is there

GMWILLLYS shirts size & logo style please......

[bmorgil]

That's the one to work on it. That will take you through everything you need to repair it. The Owners Manual is much smaller and focuses on common driving and service procedures. I think this is it. https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/literature/owners-manuals/owners-manual-fits-56-64-station-wagon

[WaybackWillys]

Just ordered---love is in the air.
Thanks!

[gmwillys]

On the shirt size, XL for me.

We all have titles whether we want them or not;

Bmorgil: Dr. Dana
LarrBeard: Professor Senior Chief
TJones: Dirt Pilot perfectionist? (first thought that came to mind)
Me: Keeper of the worthless knowledge?

[bmorgil]

A far far cry from "Worthless". gmwillys name officially becomes "Keeper of _________ Knowledge" pick any one or more of these words...

useful valuable profitable worthy consequential effective fruitful important precious productive significant worthwhile beneficial helpful meaningful upright deserving virtuous decent respectable honorable praiseworthy reliable good honest righteous meritorious reputable noble dependable admirable commendable principled excellent trustworthy exemplary irreproachable respected venerable laudable estimable creditable upstanding unimpeachable
sterling trusted conscientious solid trusty

[TJones]

A far cry from “Dirt Pilot perfectionist”

[WaybackWillys]

Gentlemen-

I haven't searched the forum yet, but would value your opinion. It appears my 63 Station Wagon has the original 230 Tornado engine with the original Holley 2 barrel. She runs VERY lean - full choke to start, half choke to idle - bogs under a load. I haven't messed with it yet-----and based on age would quickly install a remanf. Holley 2 barrel rather than waste time tinkering....
Any thoughts?

Thanks----and t-shirts are underway!

[bmorgil]

It sure would have me looking at a carb rebuild.

[gmwillys]

I would go through the carb you have, and put a kit in it. The carbs are fairly simple, as long as you take notes and pictures of linkage positions. Buy a genuine Holley kit, and you should be back on the road in no time.

[okiemark]

You can buy a gallon can of that cleaner and it will really get them clean. Let it soak overnight. Wash out with water and blow everything out.

[WaybackWillys]

Ok---off to a carb rebuild kit-
Stay tuned...and thanks!!