My horn is still great... but my carburetor isn't!

[Mark J]

Hello all
I thought of adding this to my combination "what to do with brake shoes" and my horn-related posts (whoops almost said "horny") but decided to create a new thread.;)

Back when I got my 3B to run, I had added that India-made Solix style carburetor. It's been running but never too great and always ran rich. Now I've got a horrible backfiring problem. It's so bad it just won't run at all. I've checked EVERYTHING and I'm running out of possibilities, at least within my knowledge base in my faltering brain.
I've not been too happy with it so I decided to rebuilt my Carter carburetor just to rule things out.
It was fairly straightforward and I bought a rebuilt kit made by Walker Products. It came with two small black seals that only can go on the accelerator pump linkage, the flat rod that goes down into through the bowl. One was thin, and one was THICK! I have no clue what these were for... dust protection?? Both my old Carters didn't have it. I put in the small one. Does anyone know if these were necessary and if I used the correct one?
Mark

[bmorgil]

Either will work. There are two in there because two different ones were used depending on the serial number. It doesn't matter which one you use as long as you used one.

[5JeepsAz]

I actually used my horn today too! It is great against stoplight texters. Have to remember the old double tap for maximum effects and historicity. Now, my truck misses bmorgil. That's because the minute he started talking about vacuuming issues, high idle mushy brakes, my truck developed them. I did spray the clutch lever to prevent creaking though.

[bmorgil]

Cindy knows I care.

[Mark J]

Thanks bmorgil!!
Is that piece just a dust/debris seal? Both my old carbs didn't have one so I'm assuming (bad to assume) that it was added later?
Believe it or not, I've never rebuilt a carburetor so this will be my "Carb Man" debut today.

I think the forum needs a section for just horn stories!. I like them. Mine too was perfect for the moron staring at his phone when the signal turned left. My low tone "meep meep" did the trick too!!

[bmorgil]

Just a dust cover Mark. It is not shown on the illustrations. I am guessing it was added later. Probably a service fix for crap getting in there.

I never get to use my horn because by the time I get moving everyone else is gone!

[Mark J]

Just a dust cover Mark. It is not shown on the illustrations. I am guessing it was added later. Probably a service fix for crap getting in there.

I never get to use my horn because by the time I get moving everyone else is gone!

Same here. By the time I'm across the intersection, everyone jostling for pole position and gone around me!

I've noticed that after driving my jeep now, after the 25 year "break" that people are more impatient behind me. Some notice that I'm driving a vintage vehicle but others don't! They have no clue that it's three times their age... they just need to GO FASTER than me. A-holes!

So I mounted the carburetor, anxious to start it and see if I was a success or failure. After a few times, it started but after a minute I smelled GAS. It was leaking heavily from somewhere underneath and running onto the getting-hot head. I shut it off and inspected the carburetor. It appeared to be coming from the base which I had inspected/cleaned throughly before the rebuild. I took it back apart and just swapped it out with another I had. Started it... same dang leak!! I removed the carburetor, with the gas in the bowl still and shook it a little. It was spewing out the linkage port. Tomorrow I'll take the top off and inspect my float (I did check it as well) and the valve. Somethings sticking. I got enough gas on my for today!

[5JeepsAz]

This is great. Same people following me. Just a total shift in the world. If its a big leak, you'll find it!

[Mark J]

The carburetor leak is gone. It was such a stupid mistake that I'm afraid to say what it was! I'll just say I put something where something else should have been, and vice versa!
However my backfiring issue is still there. It won't idle well at all again, and once it warms up, the explosions begin out the tailpipe.
The damn thing WAS running ok but I decided to do a preventative maintenance tune up on it: plugs, wires, cap, condenser, points, rotor, etc. I've double and triple checked all the latter.
The timing was fine before but I tried to adjust it yesterday with no change but actually worse performance.
I've been lucky all these years with the jeep and never really ever had engine issues that I couldn't solve by just tweaking/listening/feeling.
As some of you know, my smarter-than-me friend helped me to determine the jeep has a cracked exhaust valve. Can that cause a sudden backfiring issue after driving it awhile? It ran surprisingly well when I got it going a few months ago. I was planning on driving it just time to time as I fixed things, then get to the engine after some other important issues, like the brakes. Stopping is nice.
Could the exhaust valve have broken even more causing a too high amount of mixture to ignite in the tailpipe? Driving it previously there was a little less horse power and I could smell the difference in the exhaust but it actually that noticable.
Be gentle on me!!

[51 CJ3]

Check compression. If you are losing to and igniting fuel in the exhaust system, then that valve may be gone. I would recommend a differential compression test so the leak can be traced if there is one.

[gmwillys]

If the compression test comes back within tolerance when warm, then we may need to revisit the firing order. The way I'm reading the steps taken to this point is that the backfire happened after the tune up? You had previous running issues that were fuel related before, but now that the carb is correct, the ignition is suspect.

We won't pick fun at swapping or leaving out parts. It happens to the best of us. A very competent rifle builder bought everything to build himself an AR several years back. He worked and polished everything to the way he likes his weapons to run. He took it out to the test bench behind his house and loaded a mag half full. He touched the trigger, and the rifle unloaded the mag on full auto. Long story short, don't forget the sear spring. He found that he had forgotten it on the bench.

[LarrBeard]

"It was such a stupid mistake that I'm afraid to say what it was!"

Come on and tell us. If you made it, we're all going to be in a place to do the same thing if you don't warn us.

All of us have this story; "There was this one time I was working on the Jeep when ............................ ."

[5JeepsAz]

Agree! What happened? Spill it out! With pictures, man!

[Mark J]

I had the needle "seat" pin flipped the wrong way... it was up against the float instead of where it should have been... seating! :(
I don't know what I was thinking. It should have been obvious that the pointy end with the back rubbery part would be the seat. So the bowl was just filling up to the brim and spewing out.
"It's just a flesh wound..."

[Mark J]

I did a compression check last night. And... here we go!
145

120

130

And, finally at #1 (which I now remember was where we determined it was the location of the bad/cracked/broken exhaust valve all those years ago)
35 !!!
I think the valve just broke completely, but maybe a spring broke? The thing will run briefly before it warms up and starts backfiring and I don't hear any rattling noises from the engine, as if the valve head broke off.

Ultimately I should do a complete valve job, but I just can't take on that task now. I do have spare old (good) exhaust valves and springs.
So I'd like to just replace the one valve, just to keep the darn thing running for the summer, while I fix other things. That way I can still get all the smiles from the pretty ladies seeing my "cute" jeep. :)
I did rebuild one engine many years ago with a little help. Unfortunately it only lasted a year when a rod broke, while driving on the freeway. I remember hearing a horrible metallic breaking sound, pulling over and lifting my hood so see a hole in the side of the block, a broken bell housing and starter motor dangling. The engine was still running!
Nevertheless, I believe I can take on the task of a single valve job.
Let's see... I'll need a new head gasket, something to hone (I have some friends with that stuff), and I probably should order a new set of head bolts. I've had one break off years ago and that was a royal pain in the *** to repair!

[5JeepsAz]

Thats a sure boring confession. Glad you corrected yourself with a blowed up engine story in the next post. That must have been something.

[Mark J]

Thats a sure boring confession. Glad you corrected yourself with a blowed up engine story in the next post. That must have been something.

Well I'm glad my confession was boring! That's a good thing.

Yes it was rather exciting driving on the freeway - screaming along at 50mph, headed up to the mountains - then suddenly hearing the sound and actually FEELING metal pieces hitting the underside of the floorboard. That was at least 35 years ago now. My current block is the replacement for that event and it basically ran until the valve issue when I parked it back in 1995. I'm surprised it actually ran for a number of times I drove it in the last few months, getting it up/running and legal - after numerous trips to the damn DMV and then to CHP for the new ID plates.
So I'll now be doing what I hope will be an uneventful valve job on this CJ3B soon.

[51 CJ3]

Pulling the head should reveal the problem. Please post a picture of what you find.

[Mark J]

I think I found the problem...

Should I start a new thread for all the questions I may have? Or change my original title to "Not a carb but a valve!" ?
Or just keep it going here?
I've already got questions, but watching a YouTube video first before I start whining...

[51 CJ3]

Thanks for the pictures. I think you are lucky it was just a small piece instead of the whole thing. That piece probably went out the tailpipe when it let go but I would have a good look at the cylinder wall just in case.

[TJones]

I think I found the problem...

Should I start a new thread for all the questions I may have? Or change my original title to "Not a carb but a valve!" ?
Or just keep it going here?
I've already got questions, but watching a YouTube video first before I start whining...

Just keep it here Mark
Like CJ said your lucky it was just a little piece, if it was much bigger it would of probably had a “scrap iron fit”.
The Seniors will give you some fix it ideas!!!!

[gmwillys]

Not an uncommon issue. A new set of Stainless valves will cure that. A piece of advice though, I would look to have hardened seats installed. This isn't mandatory, but if you do, you will not need to add a lead substitute to the fuel to act as a cushion for the valve against the seat.

[LarrBeard]

Concur with new valves and seats.

While we are often tempted to do "just enough" to get a Jeep running again, I wish I had a dollar for every time I've thought or said ; "I wish I'd fixed xxxx while I had that engine apart last time".

You have the head off, you are going to have all the tools you need to pull a valve (or eight of them) so I would suggest you replace the set while you're in there. That seat is going to be pretty badly eroded, so replacing it and it's brothers with hardened seats is the right way to do the job. You'll never wonder if lead-free gas is eating away at the seats and it's about to start acting up again.

[bmorgil]

I don't think you will find a machine shop that is going to fix just one. Its off to the shop for a valve job. I would agree with gm, a new set of hardened seats and some stainless valves and new springs and its ready to go. Resist the urge to reuse the springs. They will eventually break in their lifetime and you never know when. Cheap insurance, always use new springs. On an overhead valve engine a broken spring usually means piston to valve contact which can ruin the whole engine.

That's going to be a big job. You will have to pull the motor down to correctly fix the exhaust seat. I just can't see a good job being done with the engine assembled.

[Mark J]

Well sh*t!
I mean that in a "thank you" way for you guys, for waking me up.
What I had planned on doing was just the single valve myself, with a great looking used valve I had, new spring, seats etc.
My next question was "Can I get away with doing the exhaust valves?" but I think that's likely a dumb question. So I won't ask! :D

[bmorgil]

No such thing as a dumb question, and I will tell you I have read stories. I have read of a person who was going to do one valve in an assembled engine. There are tools out there to do it. I would say the condition of the rest of the valves wont be far behind the one that failed. If you were just looking to prove you could get it running for minimal cost for a short period of time, you might be able to get it done. It would be "less than optimal".

I would say find a local machine shop. Go down and visit when their not busy. Tell them and show them what happened and ask them to show you an example of how that problem is fixed. The experience should help you understand what is needed.

[LarrBeard]

' but I think that's likely a dumb question"

I can think of a couple of "dumb" questions I didn't ask that ended up costing me dearly.

[gmwillys]

Story time in regards to Farmer's logic;

Our '46 has been around the family since the early '80s. When purchased, it was used in the early evening to fog for mosquitos, but not with a sprayer rig or anything of the sort. Maintaining the Heep consisted in checking the fuel and filling the oil. Once in a while we would spring for a new set of chainsaw spark plugs. After a couple of years, the Heep was parked in the corner of the garage and transformed into a workbench/catch all, all due to it's thirst for oil. Long story short, in comes my Grandfather who was recently retired from the rat race, but still farmed 80 acres. He would visit our home place and look at the sad headlights of the heep looking out from under a pile of crap. A deal was made to dig the Jeep out and deliver it to the farm for Grandpa to use for his chores. Grand dad was a mechanical genius, but lacked any formal education except for the one earned from the school of hard knocks. He set forth on a mission to stop up the smog pump. He tore the head off to discover that the #3 piston was burnt, and had a hole in the center. The machine shop in town sold him one piston, a full set of rods and main bearings, and a gasket kit. Thirty years later, the engine still runs well, doesn't smoke up the ranch, and makes frequent trips to town to gather parts.

[bmorgil]

Every now and then gm! It sounds like Grampa had plenty of smarts to know if the compression was still there in three cylinders, and the cylinder was still in good shape, why not. Back in the day this is how we saved money for sure. If the bore hones out well and isn't beyond spec for oversize, it will work. If you tore it down and the other 3 pistons and bores were good, with a quick hone job its a ring set and valve job away from a rebuild.

[Mark J]

Love that story!!! Thank you.

Soooooo, believe it or not, I did rebuild an F head about 40 years ago. It lasted a year, then did that major "blow up" I discussed earlier.
I do remember what is required for a valve job, I think! I've watched a video already on removal of the valves/springs, etc. And luckily I have some very smart friends that have overhauled many engines to assist me if needed with lapping, etc.
I'm still trying to decide though on doing the intake valves. I would love to just get away with doing all exhaust valves and take the chance on the intakes. I will, of course, inspect them and look for any obvious issues. I can be persuaded though by you guys. Now that I've pulled the head off, I realize how relatively easy it is, and NOT to forget that dang bolt where the carburetor sits. Oh, and to pull the push rods out too. Yes I had the head 6 inches off and it "stuck." Doh!!!
I'm ok with having to pull the head again at a future date, hopefully a very future date.

[bmorgil]

Mark how far you go with it really depends on what you want out of it, how long you wan it to last, and how much you want to spend, in no particular order. If you are going to keep it and you want it to run like new rebuild it completely "by the book". If you just want to get it going, or what ever your thoughts are you don't want to do a full rebuild, do what you want man its yours! I have gotten many motors running anyway I could, and the best way I could. Every time it was with a purpose in mind.

I can tell you that what we taught in the O.E. Machine Shop classes was the best way for many reasons. No cutting corners or cost for the purpose at hand. Warranty or winning was at the forefront of all decisions.

[Mark J]

Thank you!
I'm going to stick with exhaust valves for now. I'm willing to remove the head again later if need be.
For the future, I'd actually just like to have the entire engine rebuilt professionally, or just buy a rebuilt block and put it in myself, which I have done a few times in the past.
I will order new parts like exhaust manifold studs and other fasteners that might break in the block, or head. I certainly don't want to deal with drilling out a broken stud or bolt.
I should probably order new head bolts as well. I do have a torque wrench when I put it all back together.

[bmorgil]

Mark here is a link to a fellow on the CJ2 page. He did a good job here. This is a L head but your exhaust will be the same.

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/engine-overhaul-valve-seat-cutting_topic12592.html

[Mark J]

Regular work, house and yard work keeps getting in the way of my jeep, but... the valve is out. It wasn't too hard. I'd rather have a spring compressor that fits in more like a "needle nose" style but this worked. I forgot to take another shot. I did not use that wood on top as seen. I stuck a socket there on top of the valve head and it worked much better. I just tapped on top of the screw portion and the little retainers popped out and I easily removed the dead valve.

[bmorgil]

On your way now Mark! Are you going to cut the existing seat or put in an insert?

[LarrBeard]

OK - I'm going to butt in here. I'm curious.

I saw in the CJ2 link how to cut a seat with the three angle cutters, but just how do you insert a new hardened seat? I don't plan on doing it - but I'm curious!

[LarrBeard]

As smooth as the broken edges are on the divot - that valve had been running that way for a while.

[bmorgil]

To install a seat you use an insert cutter and cut out a large area for the hardened insert. If you can you freeze the insert and warm the head to install. Sufficient press fit on the insert is critical. Not enough and it will fall out and ruin things badly. Too much can crack the head.

The odds are the seat is already hardened. Depending on how bad the seat is burned up, you may be able to just cut the existing seat and salvage it. I don't see any advantage to installing one hardened seat unless the existing seat is just too far gone.

[Mark J]

Ok, my F134 head wants to go back on. However I don't like the head bolts. Plus I don't think you're really supposed to re-use them. I'm sure these were at one time. And, since they're nearly 70 years old, I don't think it's wise to put them back in and risk a break.
I'm fairly close to two speciality hardware stores that carry similar bolts. But they don't have the wider portion of the shank just below the head. I'd think if that was what Willys used, then it was critical and for a reason.
Comments?

[51 CJ3]

If this is the correct replacement, it looks like a standard bolt to me.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/cylinder-head-to-block-bolt-2-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine

But they also sell the set:
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nos-15-piece-cylinder-head-bolt-kit-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine

[bmorgil]

Since you have the F head those are correct. KW has new bolts and the second link you have is for New Old Stock. If you would have had an L head however, never use a bolt.

NEVER use head bolts on a L134. This mistake is made so many times I cant tell you. The primary reason for most blown head gaskets on a L134. The studs used on the 134 are specific in thread length particularly into the block. They need to be screwed in by hand and left LOOSE. The head is then dropped on and you run the studs down FINGER tight, until they bottom. Then they are torqued in sequence. When blots are used the shank at the top can and usually does, bottom before the threads draw up the head. The studs are the best clamping method we have for cylinder heads. Studded heads are the best method we have today for attaching a cylinder head. I have not seen any bolts that have the correct thread and shank to work without at least washers and checking to be sure it does not bottom out and there is enough thread engaged in the head. I have now scrapped and fixed several blocks of different types including my L134 Willys motors, that were ruined by the bolt bottoming and cracking the block. Many head gaskets have blown multiple times because of incorrect torque on the head.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/vehicle/49-53-cj-3a/engine/stud-kits

Had to go on, on this one Jeff. I cant tell you haw many times people make this mistake. The bolts aren't a modern make it better thing for the L head, just the opposite, they are a step back. Faster not better. The reason most modern production engines use bolts is primarily speed of assembly.

[LarrBeard]

The first link is for that short bolt that hides under the throat of the carburetor - the engine will almost run (for a while) if the engine rebuilder leaves it out.

The full set has 14 long and the one short bolt.

[bmorgil]

Whoops missed that on the first link. I thought it was a full set. That is the "Infamous" bolt you have spoken of before Larry! Often forgotten on disassembly and assembly?

[Mark J]

If this is the correct replacement, it looks like a standard bolt to me.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/cylinder-head-to-block-bolt-2-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine

But they also sell the set:
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nos-15-piece-cylinder-head-bolt-kit-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine

Yes I knew KW sold these but I've found a local place that carries something very close, just not with the wide part of the shank just below the head, which was my concern.
The other thing with ordering online is some of these companies are showing they have stock of parts, when they don't! I've had two places send me messages a WEEK later, saying that they were waiting for orders from manufactures. They didn't bother to say the parts were on back order, when I had ordered.
Plus I don't have to have OS bolts, especially at $100. I'm sure they're nice though.

[Mark J]

Thanks bmorgil!
Yes did read up on the L head using studs. Glad I have an F head although I'm jealous the L has the "WILLYS" on it and mine doesn't. :(
And... yes - when I started trying to lift the head off, I thought maybe the gasket was sticking so I carefully tried to pry it. FOUR seconds later a little light bulb flashed on in my head, and I remembered that sneaky 2 inch bolt, hiding in the hole.

Back to the bolt question... seems that larger width portion of the shank isn't all that important?

[bmorgil]

The head bolt also provides a location for the head. The shank portion on head bolts is machined larger so the fit is tighter in the head. This helps keep the head close to its proper alignment along with location pins in some motors. Also the grade of bolt is of a high quality. When you put the bolt in a torqued situation it should be stretching slightly to provide the clamp for a good head gasket seal. The design of the bolt, shank length and shape, material, among other things determine when the stretch is correct for the torque applied. I would stick to a good name brand head bolt and use their torque specs and installation procedure if it differs from the Willys book. In the case of head gaskets, the correct clamp force is really important. I am sure many get away with a lot. I am looking at the short bolt from KW. It does not look like the O.E. bolt. The shank looks like a standard bolt. I personally would stick to the N.O.S. O.E. set, or a set from a head bolt supplier specifically for your Willys motor. Not worth the risk on the head gasket sealing for a long time.

[Mark J]

My slow slow slow progress update:
After waiting two weeks the head bolts arrived. They were specifically for the F head, but the bolt head size was smaller.
I stared at everything for a week (well not literally) and got the head on yesterday. I THOUGHT everything was going well so far and began to start the torque sequence. Well right at bolt #1 I had an issue! I had used my torque wrench recently and assumed it was ok. But when I started realizing it was getting too tight (not clicking at 65 pounds), I stopped, and borrowed my friends torque wrench. I backed off the bolt a hair, used his wrench and it clicked immediately. I think I over-torqued it to maybe 75? I don't know.
I resumed the sequence, then repeated it just to insure that I didn't miss a bolt. When I got to the small bolt the wrench at first felt tight, then started moving with that "oh sh*t" feeling that the bolt was about to break. I stopped and tried backing the bolt out verrrrrrrry slowly with a smaller wrench and the extension I was using.
SNAP!!!!! the wrench fell from my hand. This isn't going to be fun, I thought.
Then I realized what happened. The extension broke! It twisted right off. It was rather old, and made in Japan, back when Japanese things weren't that great.
Luckily the bolt didn't move at all. I replaced the extension and it was right where it should be.
However, when I finished the sequence, I realized what else I screwed up! I think this was a stupid mistake. Something looked "missing." Well it was the damn oil filter bracket!
So I unscrewed the two bolts, stuck in on and just went back through the sequence.
Now I just need to get everything back on which might happen today or Saturday.
If all goes well and it starts up and runs...
I'll let it get up to running temperature. Should I let it cool down completely (as in COLD) before re-torquing?

[bmorgil]

Should I let it cool down completely (as in COLD) before re-torquing?

Haa I did the same thing on mine Mark. Had it snug as a bug in a rug and then spotted the oil filter bracket. Da** it!

Head gasket re-torque was a priority in the old days, is still a good idea today and is still required on some applications. On the 134's I would definitely do it at least once, twice wouldn't hurt. When the motor first warms everything expands. This creates a pressure against the fasteners as the head and block grow in size. The gasket gets really compressed. When everything cools back down the gasket in the old days would stay at this new compressed thickness. If you re-fired it and ran it good it without re-torquing, it would blow the new gasket. You had to let it cool down and the bolts would then be loose. After a few cycles and re-torques things would take a set and the bolts would stay tight from then on. When new "No Re-torque" head gaskets came out in the late 70's, the gasket was designed to relax with the cooling parts and grow back to its initial compressed state. In my opinion they work OK. Assembly lines today count on them. I always re-torque if I can. I will tell you they do work well and warranty from them was very low. The gasket on the 134 definitely needs re-torque just for your own sanity. The little bugger is notorious for blown head gaskets. Though I truly believe the little motor suffers from a lot of the afore mentioned "Bubbaisms". Bolts instead of studs, torquing with an air gun, flat clean surface... re-torque... faget' about it ... stuff like that.

So all that to answer I would re-torque whenever I could and always on a stone cold motor after it has warmed up and cooled.

[Mark J]

Thank you! I feel better...
I got the new radiator hoses, fuel lines, oil line, carburetor on. Saturday I'll get the carb linkage on and ??? - I think that's it? I should probably place the rocker cover on to avoid oil splash. I hope it will run and the Chinese valve works.

[Mark J]

Update on my still slow progress...I'll abbreviated it for time sake.
Everything is on. The engine started, warmed up a little - sputtered and stalled.
I re-torqued the following morning, but the jeep now would not start. Fast-forward to today, I realized my rebuilt Carter carburetor was clogged - no gas out of the jet. So I put the new Solex style carb (that I was hesitant about way before the valve broke) and it fired right up. It's still running rough but after some tweaking with the distributor and carb, it ran up to temperature. I'm beginning to think I might have a distributor issue. I made very slight turns left and right. It would run better but still seemed to be misfiring. I'm going to do the final re-torque tomorrow and then I'll try to figure out the next problem(s).
I have ruled out plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, etc.
One thing, there was very noticeable difference in just the sound of the engine overall, as in the new exhaust valve IS working.

[51 CJ3]

Mine ran rough so I rebuilt the carb, changed plugs and plug wires and swapped out the distributor for a new electronic one. It all helped but it still ran rough. I was listening to it run one day and rested my fingers on the key for a second before killing it and engine smoothed out. A new ignition switch made it run great.

[LarrBeard]

"... just the sound of the engine overall, as in the new exhaust valve IS working....

It's not whistling through a gap in its front teeth!

[Mark J]

"... just the sound of the engine overall, as in the new exhaust valve IS working....

It's not whistling through a gap in its front teeth!

Yes!! Exactly. And that was a big gap!

Ok here's my still-slow progress report. First, see the photo. I did a compression test just so I know for sure, and was pleased to see the results. The #1 is at the firewall, counting back. It's nice to see my readings fairly close.
I ruled out all I listed before but checked the coil since now it won't even try to start. Pulled the output from the distributor cap and held it near ground and only got a microscopic spark, then no spark when I repeated it.
I think I have a bad coil. Either way I must replace it now since I beat the sh*t out of it trying to unfreeze it from the bracket.
Happy Monday everyone. :)

[gmwillys]

It's the Willys Way. Tasks that are so simple, i.e. removing a coil from the bracket, turn into major sources of aggravation.

[Mark J]

Well hell it wasn't the coil. It was the condenser wire contact, making contact where it should not have! The connector was touching the metal protective cap on the distributor. This happened before and I thought I had fixed it. So I killed a good coil. :(
Either way, it's sparking now and running. Now I'm back to timing and carburetor, I hope.

[bmorgil]

Shes trying to come to life! Sounds like your almost there Mark. Good catch on the condenser short.

[Mark J]

I'm lost, again.
1. The jeep runs very rough. I've changed/moved nothing, in terms of timing since it ran before, with the exhaust valve issue. If I shut it down after running it awhile, it won't restart unless it's cooled off considerably.
I pulled out the coil wire from the distributor cap, held it near a good ground and only get a tiny spark - maybe 3mm at the most. This is what I saw from the old coil.
Shouldn't I get a hefty spark?
2. I'm now thinking that this issue was actually what happened when I was driving the jeep and it suddenly lost all power and started backfiring. And, that the exhaust valve may already have been in the shape it was in (notched!) , and that this current issue exacerbated that problem.
I'm somewhat lost as to why the spark is weak and I feel I need to attack that issue before fine tuning the timing. My coil is getting proper voltage to the + side. I even hot wired that directly to the battery to rule out any ignition key/wiring issues.
Does the case of the coil need grounding via the bracket? The coil is painted but so was my old one.
I've done major work on this jeep in the past, but I've never ever had any tune up issues. It really never needed much! Set gaps, change plugs, adjust timing by "ear" and jeep ran fine for nearly two decades.
Ideas?

[LarrBeard]

A. You should be getting a fat blue spark that should jump a lot more than the 3mm you mention. It should "POP" and be big enough to make you want to be careful.

B. The case of the coil is not a ground. As shown in the attached diagram, both the primary side of the coil and the high voltage secondary are returned to ground through the - terminal of the coil and the condenser when the points open.

C. Make sure the condenser ground strap is spot welded to the case - mine wasn't. Get a new condenser - they're cheap and not that hard to change. Make sure all the wires are tied to the right place and not shorted to something else. We've all connected up something where it doesn't belong at one time or another.

[Mark J]

Thank you LarrBeard!
Right after I posted today, I went to the garage, stared at the coil and realized that I've only tested it assuming all was well in my distributor. I had that issue with the contact touching the metal dust cap and thought it was resolved when the jeep started. I didn't tie in that it could still start and run (poorly) with the weak spark.
If no one had posted back I was going to just make my own contact point, release it and see if had a spark. Or better yet, just stick a spark plug on the coil output wire, ground the plug and see if I get a spark along the gap of the plug.
Well anyway... I'll check my grounds in the distributor. I did check the condenser with my cap checker and the reading was good. This was back in November just before my surgery. I had just bought the points/condenser/cap so really they're like new. But I will check the condenser again if I don't see any ground issues.
I spend the rest of the day sanding teak outdoor chairs. Boy do they sure suck up that teak oil!!

[LarrBeard]

You are welcome.

The idea of taking a spark plug cable, plugging it into the tower on the coil and using a spark plug to check for spark as you make and break the points is a good idea.

That checks everything but the cap and rotor.

You haven't swapped a wire to the plugs have you? 1 - 3 - 4 - 2 .... 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 doesn't work all that well. Ask me how I know....

[Mark J]

You are welcome.

The idea of taking a spark plug cable, plugging it into the tower on the coil and using a spark plug to check for spark as you make and break the points is a good idea.
That checks everything but the cap and rotor.
You haven't swapped a wire to the plugs have you? 1 - 3 - 4 - 2 .... 1 - 3 - 2 - 4 doesn't work all that well. Ask me how I know....

This has been challenging!
My plug wires are in the correct order. I wish that was the issue, darn it.

I'm sure there is something wrong in my distributor now.
With help from a friend (he literally is a rocket scientist... he's got stuff on Mars!) who came by, we determined and ruled out timing and carbonation. I did remove the Solex carb and put my rebuilt Carter back on. It had clogged so that's why I put the other one back on. For some reason I just like the Carter better. That's as far as we got that day.
After my last post I "for sure" thought I had a bad NEW coil, even though I think that's very rare. But, the "new new" coil was doing the same thing... weak spark. The problem was that I was testing it without a condenser in the circuit (when isolating it from the distributor).
Next my friend helped out from his home by rigging up a way for me to test my coil independent of the distributor, as he agreed that I should see a hefty spark, one to be careful with!
I added a photo of his set up. (Ballast resistor added to his coil) Sure enough, when I went by - I clearly saw a nice big blue spark jumping in his makeshift contacts, that reminded me of a mini Tesla coil.
I brought that entire setup home, reconnected it and duplicated it to make sure of the connections. Then I disconnected his coil and jumped in my coil, making sure it was completely disconnected from any vehicle wiring.
And...
I got a NICE BIG BLUE SPARK! ;)
Now the only thing I could think of was my condenser, again. So I disconnected his high voltage cap and stuck in my condenser.
And, I again got a nice big blue spark.
With that said, I'll go back out to the garage today and poke around with my distributor and double check what I thought I already checked.
Still this is good news I think, although it seems this should be simple stuff and I wonder why I'm so challenged by it?? Too much wine? Too many woman? (Well no that's not happening)
In the meantime, I ordered a new electronic ignition type distributor from Kaiser Willys in case I can't figure out the distributor issue. It seems they have mostly good reviews but I really hate replacing my original stuff with Chinese "goods."
There's my update.

[bmorgil]

Wine and those women......

Mark, make sure there is a solid 12 volts at the coil when you are doing your checking. In other words make sure there is 12 volts (or 6v in a 6v system) at the coil when you are doing the actual testing not just a key on check. It is possible a poor connection or contact from the switch to the coil could be at fault. Under load you may loose the voltage. I think gm alluded to this earlier,there has been more than one worn out or bad start switch. If you have a solid 12 volts (or 6v) at the coil make sure the coil is grounded well. No resistance in the coil ground circuits.

If you are considering electronic ignition, you can use your original distributor and convert it. The Pertronix set up goes right in and is stock appearing. It is quite easy to switch back and forth between points and electronic. https://pertronixbrands.com/pages/pertronix-ignition . This is what I am running in the 50'.

[Mark J]

I did already test for that voltage.
Today just for kicks, I added a few drops to the distributor oil port. I don't think I've ever added oil, at least since 1977. I double checked my points. The thin curved contact metal never fit all that flush. So just in case it was making any intermittent contact to ground (which I checked before) I clipped out some of the metal so it fit "better" into place.
It fired right up. I tweaked the carburetor a little and drove about ten minutes. It was fine... nearly perfect but felt like timing needed adjusting just a little.
BUT... after that ten minutes, it fell back into its misfiring fits!
I already ordered that electric ignition distributor so I think I'll just give it a try. I feel like I've really ruled out everything else.
The only thing I can recall now is that this event happened shortly after I installed the new points. But I've REALLY looked at them closely, and also while hand cranking the engine to observe them, checking continuity at each point in the distributor cam, etc.

[bmorgil]

Mark, put an ohm meter on the negative wire to the points from the coil. Wiggle it around and pull on it and such. Make sure it isn't broken, making a bad connection or corroded away inside under the insulation.

[Mark J]

Mark, put an ohm meter on the negative wire to the points from the coil. Wiggle it around and pull on it and such. Make sure it isn't broken, making a bad connection or corroded away inside under the insulation.

Wiggled, pulled, danced, did hokey pokey, etc... oh and I did that on the wire too. Sadly, the wire is good and full of continuity. :)

[bmorgil]

OK Mark at least you know what you are dealing with here. The weak spark can only be a few things. You have eliminated a lot. What is the resistance across the closed points? I also noticed you mentioned a ballast resistor. Are you sure it needs one? This depends on the coil and most new coils don't use them. The coil will indicate whether or not it requires a resistor. Running a resistor where none is required will of course cause a weak spark. Running no resistor when one is required however will eventually burn the points and they will develop a high resistance when closed.

There should be no resistance across the points. I have seen brand new points with film on them stop a lot of progress. Put the ohm meter on them again just to be sure. We will find this gremlin.

Keep trying Mark, That's a good looking Willys tailgate in the picture! Tell the Rocket Scientist I love the paper clip igniter.

[Mark J]

OK Mark at least you know what you are dealing with here. The weak spark can only be a few things. You have eliminated a lot. What is the resistance across the closed points? I also noticed you mentioned a ballast resistor. Are you sure it needs one? This depends on the coil and most new coils don't use them. The coil will indicate whether or not it requires a resistor. Running a resistor where none is required will of course cause a weak spark. Running no resistor when one is required however will eventually burn the points and they will develop a high resistance when closed.
There should be no resistance across the points. I have seen brand new points with film on them stop a lot of progress. Put the ohm meter on them again just to be sure. We will find this gremlin.
Keep trying Mark, That's a good looking Willys tailgate in the picture! Tell the Rocket Scientist I love the paper clip igniter.

Hello
I'm sorry I may have mis-wrote something: the ballast resistor was only in the rocket scientist's (Greg) set up, which was for me to observe how the coil should strongly spark, even if isolated from the distributor. He just happened to have that "no resistor" coil laying around.
So, that's what I duplicated using my coil, with no resistor as it does have the internal one.
Anyway - there's no resistance across the points. Greg double checked all my previously double checked tests when he came by.
Frustrating still! Can there be something internal happening in the distributor? I'd think it would happen ALL the time and not after the vehicle is warmed up. But again, it ran "ok" but there was still slight misfiring, it seems. I originally thought that may be that I needed to fine tune the timing. But just as I thought that was it, it REALLY started to misfire.
The new distributor will arrive today but I'll be at work, so looks like Saturday will be the day.
(That Willys tailgate in the photo belongs to Greg's 1948 CJ2A with Buick 225 and 4 speed transmission that he installed way back in the 70's.)

[bmorgil]

Yes mark it is possible the distributor is so worn that it is causing the dwell to vary and misfires may be occurring. The thing to look for is side to side (axial play) that would allow the points to change gap. Nothing is allowed. Any will cause dwell changes.

Do you have an inductive timing light? Try putting it on the coil wire and if you can get it running, watch it for the loss of spark Then try it on each wire.

[5JeepsAz]

Mine had metal shavings in it. Mechanic's gymnastics produced no good result. Finally mechanic scratches his head, put a magnet on stick with some grease in there and shavings jumped onto and stuck to the magnet! Be danged if it didn't immediately and thereafter work perfectly.

[Mark J]

Yes mark it is possible the distributor is so worn that it is causing the dwell to vary and misfires may be occurring. The thing to look for is side to side (axial play) that would allow the points to change gap. Nothing is allowed. Any will cause dwell changes.
Do you have an inductive timing light? Try putting it on the coil wire and if you can get it running, watch it for the loss of spark Then try it on each wire.

First... we did put the timing light on the coil and it was definitely whacky!
Second and MOST important: IT'S WORKING! :D
I installed the new distributor with the new type of adjustment collar (old one won't work; it hits the bottom of distributor), double checking my rotor settings, installed my plugs in proper order and the thing fired right up. I have't even fully adjusted my "rebuilt rebuilt" Carter carburetor or checked timing with the light and it runs nearly perfect. I drove it about 15 minutes and it runs great. I'm amazed at how much power has sprung back from this engine and still very happy with my previous compression readings after installing the new valve.
Thank you all, again and again. I'm sure I'll have more fun stuff to add but maybe I'll start a new thread for the next subject.
Now my alternator is whining like mad so tomorrow will be alternator day. It's "only" 40 years old. I will still do a valve adjustment of course so that probably happen Monday. It doesn't seen too hard to do.

[Mark J]

And more to my last post...
So it wasn't my alternator! But I have a new one anyway. The old one was 40 years old so it was bound to go out, right? (Everyone say yes please)
I also learned that an impact wrench does a wonderful job of removing the pulley nut. The new one had a single pulley so I had to stick my old one on.
So it's my dang water pump. I think the whining it made sort of reverberated back against the engine block. New pump arriving today.
In the meantime I learned how to adjust my exhaust valves thanks, in part, to a great video posted by someone on the 3B forum. It was quite easy. The hardest part was shoving the cover plate aside for clearance. The new valve clearance was too tight. It's perfect now. One other was needed adjustment and the other two were fine.
It's amazing how well this jeep is running now. I'm almost hesitant!

[bmorgil]

Very good to hear Mark! The 3B forum and the 3A forum, as well as the g503 forum are all excellent sources. I will say on the 3A L134 it is much easier to set the valves on the engine stand! It is tough to get to the middle when its tucked away.

Cheap insurance on the alternator Mark. I say yes!

[LarrBeard]

And more to my last post... (Everyone say yes please)

It's amazing how well this jeep is running now. I'm almost hesitant!

Yes, Please.

You've gotten your money's worth out of a 40-year old alternator, replacing it is a pre-emptive strike against a brown out at an inconvenient time.

All of us know the hesitancy about being too pleased once we get them running well. You kind of wait for the next shoe to drop.

[bmorgil]

You kind of wait for the next shoe to drop.

Where does that shoe drop from?!?!? I would like to cut off the head of that snake!

[Mark J]

Another shoe dropped!!!
So... I was "FOR SURE" it was now the water pump. I had removed the belt and the noise stopped. It originally sounded like the alternator but when It wasn't - it had to have been the water pump.
Sooooo the new pump arrived yesterday and installed it today. Got it all in, added new radiator fluid again and fired it up...
Well CRAP the squealing was there, but "less squeally."
Hmmm I never thought maybe the 40 year old belt might be making a hissy fit. I never thought of the obvious; it looked ok - no cracks but shiny as heck on the inside. I think it lost its grip!
One good thing here. The water pump was leaking slightly and I could definitely feel a LOT of resistance on the pulley.
So there's my Wednesday story. New parts all working. And I got the belt just now and will install it soon.
I wonder which shoe will drop next???

[bmorgil]

Ha the darn belt!

The next time if you suspect a belt is making noise, rub a little bar soap on it wherever you can touch it on the side. It wont take much. If it shuts right up you found the squeaker.

[5JeepsAz]

Am I too late for celebrations and aye yes please I'll drink another lemonade? What happend?

[Mark J]

Losing mind.
Installed NEW belt and my "whirring" sound is STILL THERE. There's nothing left! Can a new alternator have a bad bearing? Even my mechanically inclined neighbors agree it sounds, again, like the alternator.
To top this off, when I installed the new belt, it then started squealing but that was clearly a belt sound. And I did add a little belt dressing which seems to be working so far.
Shoes are dropping all over the place!

[Mark J]

Well the whirring is gone. Maybe "Remanufactured in China" alternators need some break in time, for bearings?
Fan belt squeak is gone. The bar soap worked better since the belt dressing didn't. Also I had put it on the bottom rather than the side! Oops!

[bmorgil]

Whatever it takes Mark! I have never heard of breaking in the alternator bearings but if it works!

[gmwillys]

It probably wasn't so much of breaking in the alternator, but more the belt breaking in and relaxing. After a few start/stop cycles, the belt seated in with the soap aid. Now the alternator/water pump/ belt all should be happy and quiet. I tend to over tighten belts, and measure the belt deflection to where it is on the highest end of the specs to ensure that the belt doesn't pop off.

[Mark J]

Whatever it takes Mark! I have never heard of breaking in the alternator bearings but if it works!
I never have either. I wish I'd recorded that sound thought. But I did have two neighbors verify that I wasn't hearing things!

[Mark J]

It probably wasn't so much of breaking in the alternator, but more the belt breaking in and relaxing. After a few start/stop cycles, the belt seated in with the soap aid. Now the alternator/water pump/ belt all should be happy and quiet. I tend to over tighten belts, and measure the belt deflection to where it is on the highest end of the specs to ensure that the belt doesn't pop off.

My F134 is definitely the quietest it's ever been, well other than when it didn't run for 25 years.
Now I hear all the other clicks, whirrs, and squeaks coming from the other parts, but that's "normal." :D

[bmorgil]

but that's "normal." :D

As it slowly drives you mad! Haha one of the things that pops up in conversation from time to time. The difference between a "Driver" and an "Owner". The driver wants it to go and doesn't hear anything that might slow them down. An owner on the other hand gets anxious about everything they hear!

[LarrBeard]

In a small, single engine plane - about dusk - over water - you hear all kinds of things you never noticed before.....

[5JeepsAz]

Dear Jeepers, yes,, it is true that A "driver" hears the "owner" who is riding along occasionally. You know. Gasps. Yelling. That sort of noises. It's the delightful part of the drive, really. Only thing better? The bloodless knuckles gripping the armrest. With love, a driver