L134 Coolant in Oil/Exhaust

[teamxdr]

Just picked up a '47 CJ2A that the previous owner stated at idle was running on what seemed to be 3 cylinders and just recently started having coolant/water come out the exhaust. Once you got off idle, the engine seemed to smooth out. When I purchased, only ran it long enough to get on the trailer, off the trailer and into the shop. I suspect it is a head gasket, which is probably the best case scenario.

So far, to diagnose, I've done a compression test with the following results; 95, 90, 90, 90 with all spark plugs removed. Of note, cylinder 3's spark plug had fluid between the ground electrode and electrode tip, also the insulator seemed a little bit cleaner and more of a rust color. Before the compression test, I turned over the engine a couple of times to remove any fluid, which cylinder 3 shot fluid out. This fluid may have been penetrating fluid that was in the spark plug well from before removal though. Also, when compression testing cylinder 3, cylinder 2 shot some fluid out.

Oil has coolant in it, and after sitting in the shop overnight, the oil pan gasket appears to be leaking with coolant. Radiator has no visible level coolant.

My next move is to fill the radiator with distilled water, and pressurize to ~10 PSI, visually watch the combustion chamber for signs.

Any other suggestions BEFORE I pull the head?

[bmorgil]

I think you are on track. The clean plug is classic of a "steam" cleaning that the plug gets when water begins to enter the combustion process. I think it is a head gasket also. It has good compression for cranking and fairly uniform. Typical for a head gasket that is just starting to go. The fluid present in the leak helps make a seal. The way to be totally sure is to put a pressure checker on the cooling system. If you put 10 psi or so on it I bet the water leak will show up. If the head gasket is leaking it will not hold pressure for long. Also when it is running you should see bubbles in the water. Running the motor with the radiator cap removed, look for bubbles in the water flow once the thermostat opens.

[LarrBeard]

Wow - that is a nice looking lil' CJ 2A with the top and roll bar.

That's good, consistent compression for a cold crank turn-over. I'd bet a Coke on a head gasket too. There is one more possibility that you will eliminate or confirm after you pull the head - a cracked head - yuk..

One of the L-134's on the truck had a cracked head back in the late 50's. I remember it laying around in the garage- until it wandered off in a pile of scrap metal.

[teamxdr]

I think you are on track. The clean plug is classic of a "steam" cleaning that the plug gets when water begins to enter the combustion process. I think it is a head gasket also. It has good compression for cranking and fairly uniform. Typical for a head gasket that is just starting to go. The fluid present in the leak helps make a seal. The way to be totally sure is to put a pressure checker on the cooling system. If you put 10 psi or so on it I bet the water leak will show up. If the head gasket is leaking it will not hold pressure for long. Also when it is running you should see bubbles in the water. Running the motor with the radiator cap removed, look for bubbles in the water flow once the thermostat opens.

Will have the pressure checker on Sunday, so that'll be my last test before tear down of the head. Don't feel too comfortable letting it run to that point and risk further damage.


Wow - that is a nice looking lil' CJ 2A with the top and roll bar.

That's good, consistent compression for a cold crank turn-over. I'd bet a Coke on a head gasket too. There is one more possibility that you will eliminate or confirm after you pull the head - a cracked head - yuk..

One of the L-134's on the truck had a cracked head back in the late 50's. I remember it laying around in the garage- until it wandered off in a pile of scrap metal.

I'm hoping its the gasket and clear cut.

[gmwillys]

I'm voting for the head gasket itself, rather than a cracked head/block. With the little you've run it, a crack typically will show up more pronounced when warm. When a gasket goes, temp doesn't matter as much.

[bmorgil]

Take some pictures of the project. Feed our curiosity! Watch out for cheap imported gaskets. Make sure the new gasket is stamped "Made in USA" there are some bad head gaskets about. The bad ones are not marked or are marked made in China. They come from a few "off shore" places.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil. USA made gaskets are worth the extra money on the front end.

[teamxdr]

Still awaiting for the radiator pressure test kit I ordered to come in (I know local parts house typically loans them for free). Going to wait to order any parts until after tear down, and plan is to swap in new head studs/nuts, felpro head gasket, thermostat/spacer/gasket/hardware, spark plugs, oil pan gasket, oil filter. I'm sure that list may grow, but thats where I'm at now.

Of note, found some other modifications on the Willys to include 3a windshield, Selecto hubs and a Saginaw steering gear box. Previous owner also installed a new Solex carb, and handed over what was previously installed.

My long term plans are to install a dual brake master cylinder and all new brake components, replace all wiring, bias ply period correct new tires/wheels. Then use it for what it was designed for.

Heres a couple photos to feed some of the curiosity. This is 1/6 "Jeeps" we currently have, and may actually top my interest over the '67 Kaiser M715 I had a couple years back. Pretty sure this one is a keeper!

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[LarrBeard]

You noted:

"Of note, found some other modifications on the Willys to include 3a windshield, Selecto hubs and a Saginaw steering gear box. Previous owner also installed a new Solex carb, and handed over what was previously installed."

Not that we have any strong preferences, but I hope you have the one good Solex carb they built in the last ten or so years. There are numerous accounts over many Forums about issues with Solex carbs; idle, mixture, rough running and poor fuel economy.

The best recommendation I have heard is to take off the Solex - and after dark some night throw it as far out the shop door as you can. Then the next morning, have a friend go out and find it, then bury it and forget where he dug the hole.

Then go and rebuild the original Carter carburetor.

It looks nice - the 12-volt conversion was nicely done. And, your plan forward is solid.

[bmorgil]

Looking like a goal is in mind! I agree with Larry on the Solex, keep your ear to the ground for a Carter original.

[teamxdr]

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As mentioned, I do have the carb that the previous owner removed, and it is a Carter W-0. It appears to be a 636S-S or 636S-SA.

[bmorgil]

All set that's the right carb he left you. Rebuild that original for sure.

[LarrBeard]

In the long term, that is a better carburetor for the Jeep.

[teamxdr]

Sounds good. I'll probably keep the Solex on there for now, as it seemed to run smoothly. Once I finish up the other drivability projects or if it causes issues I'll move onto the rebuild. First coolant pressure tester with ~30 adapters did not have the correct size, so have a second kit being delivered today. If that does not work, I may just tear into it this weekend or build a homemade adapter.

[LarrBeard]

"Sounds good. I'll probably keep the Solex on there for now, as it seemed to run smoothly."

Yeah, chase the worst problems first ...

"First coolant pressure tester with ~30 adapters did not have the correct size .. "

Probably 29 were some weird metric size.

[teamxdr]

Well got the second pressure test kit in, with a fitting cap. Then snapped off the overflow tube that was jb welded, so had to solder that back on. Pressure tested up to ~7.5 PSIG, and have confirmed the leak into cylinder 3. Its not a real fast leak, but can audibly hear it and see fluid in the combustion chamber. Sprayed WD-40 in there for now and will pull the head this weekend. Didn't want to turn it over to push it out, as I know the pan is already overfull, and risk hydrolocking it.


For anyone in the future wanting to pressure test, I found this kit to have the correct size cap, just have to plug off the overflow line. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078G28GGM

[LarrBeard]

Thanks for the information - I hope I never need one, and I hope you don't need it again.

Oh, by the way, is that a fuel pressure regulator tied into the fuel line to the Solex? With a new fuel pump, many Carter WO and YF want a pressure regulator to keep pressure down to about 1.5 PSI. Mine hides down behind the oil fill tube.....

[teamxdr]

That does appear to be a fuel pressure regulator. Looks like it has the stock mechanical fuel pump with glass bowl and a new fuel tank under the seat. Haven't go through the engine bay with a fine tooth comb yet though.

[bmorgil]

Now I do feel old. My pressure checker is a vintage NAPA. It only has two cap style adapters period. When it was purchased that's all there was. It fit everything. My son needed to use it a long while back on a "newer" vehicle. He had to buy a new pressure checker and there must be 25 different adapters. The vintage fit nothing. Just my "Vintage" vehicles. I think we went backwards on compatibility of tools.

There are three different pressures the 134's with AC pumps run on.Though a lot of pumps could be on your 134, it was originally set up to run with one of these three. In the CJ2A it is using the AC 153886. It should be internally regulated or use a spacer, at 4.5 psi max.. The CJ3A uses AC 1539353. It should be internally set or use a spacer, for 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 psi max. The rest through CJ6 use AC 5594032. It should be internally set or use a spacer, for 2 1/2 to 3 3/4 psi max. The WO Carter can take 4.5 psi if you have the right float, needle and seat in the carburetor that matches the pump pressure requirements. There are a few different float, needle and seat assemblies out there. If you are needing a regulator because the pump is putting out too much pressure and you have the right spacer float, needle and seat, or if you don't, you have two choices. Send the pump back or install a regulator in the line after the filter. Now the Solex... I don't know what pressure it would work best with.

I have this pump from KW https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-fuel-pump-single-action-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine. It runs right at 4.5 psi. too much for an original 3A, but I have the early 2A needle valve and seat assembly. I do not use an external regulator.

[teamxdr]

Now I do feel old. My pressure checker is a vintage NAPA. It only has two cap style adapters period. When it was purchased that's all there was. It fit everything. My son needed to use it a long while back on a "newer" vehicle. He had to buy a new pressure checker and there must be 25 different adapters. The vintage fit nothing. Just my "Vintage" vehicles. I think we went backwards on compatibility of tools.

There are three different pressures the 134's with AC pumps run on.Though a lot of pumps could be on your 134, it was originally set up to run with one of these three. In the CJ2A it is using the AC 153886. It should be internally regulated or use a spacer, at 4.5 psi max.. The CJ3A uses AC 1539353. It should be internally set or use a spacer, for 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 psi max. The rest through CJ6 use AC 5594032. It should be internally set or use a spacer, for 2 1/2 to 3 3/4 psi max. The WO Carter can take 4.5 psi if you have the right float, needle and seat in the carburetor that matches the pump pressure requirements. There are a few different float, needle and seat assemblies out there. If you are needing a regulator because the pump is putting out too much pressure and you have the right spacer float, needle and seat, or if you don't, you have two choices. Send the pump back or install a regulator in the line after the filter. Now the Solex... I don't know what pressure it would work best with.

I have this pump from KW https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-fuel-pump-single-action-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine. It runs right at 4.5 psi. too much for an original 3A, but I have the early 2A needle valve and seat assembly. I do not use an external regulator.

Yeah on the test kit, seems everyone has to make their proprietary setup now days.

Is the AC number easy to spot on the fuel pump? Or another way to identify? From a general search, the 153886 has a metal bowl. Mine with the glass bowl more so matches 119238-R.

[bmorgil]

There is usually a small metal tag on the pump originally. Of course they tend to disappear. I think you will find there are a lot of pumps out there that will fit. That makes it tough as anything could be on there. The L134 was used in industrial and other places. I think if you look through the pumps KW has listed on line you might be able to identify what you have. In any event if the measured pressure is too high a spacer should do the trick. It appears you have a regulator, that will work just fine. Make sure you check it with a gauge to be sure it is correctly set. Changes in fuel pressure produce changes in the float level which can change the running characteristics of the engine. You do want it to be fairly close to prevent flooding or lean. I have heard the Legendary Solex likes 1.5 to 2 psi of pressure.

[teamxdr]

Got the oil pan drained out, more coolant than oil. Also drained the radiator, only coolant. Turned over the engine 1-2 times to push any coolant that was sitting on top of the cylinders and then sprayed WD-40 in the cylinder. I have to head out of town for a week short notice, so wanted to try and prevent any additional damage while it sits.

Now some other things I've noticed/wondered what they may have been...

First is this small metal piece, looks like a larger needle bearing or such. Flat on one end, rounded on the other. Found it in the spark plug well sitting there. Photo is sitting on radiator indent for size reference.
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Second is random holes in the hood, 2 have been plugged. Hood also used to have rear hooks at some point in time.
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Last is some random bolts through the firewall, guessing they may have something to do with the holes in the hood or possibly for a heater?
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[teamxdr]

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Found this photo of someone elses firewall that has similar hole layout.

[teamxdr]

Finally was able to get the head pulled, no broken studs or parts (all came off relatively easy). Cylinder 2 & 3 appear to have signs of coolant leakage, on the head gasket, there is visible possible path to cylinder 2. Cylinder 3 was the original culprit with verified leakage.

Now onto the block, cylinder 1 has major scaling, if thats what you'd call that. The other 3 cylinder have some towards the top. I'm assuming this will require a full rebuild, but surprised by my compression results and that the engine was not seized.

Thoughts?

[LarrBeard]

That looks closer to rust and pitting than just "scale".

It's a trip to the machine shop in my opinion ...

[bmorgil]

Larry has the key bit of analysis. If that is pitted up then it is going to have to go to the next oversize bore. However if it is not pitted, it is possible it could be cleaned up with a ball hone. I am surprised at the compression you had in that hole especially with a cold engine. I would say it is probable there was enough water and antifreeze to seal it up for the compression test. I am thinking it looks pretty bad. Why not go all the way. You can rest assured then that the motor is fresh when you go out to play! The machine shop will be able to tell you if they can clean up those bores or not. You know its a good core. It was barely running for you. So you know the majior components should all rebuild nicely without surprises. On most cores, you never know what you will find.