Hot mess, a 1967 CJ-5 restoration

[davide]

Here begins my journey to getting Dad's 1967 CJ-5 back to her glory days...

This saga started nearly 35 years ago, when my Dad bought the CJ. As the story has it, the owner before my Dad owned 2 CJ's and used one to restore or modify the other. Of course the one my Dad bought was the one that got picked through. It ran and that's all that mattered to him until the day the transfer case seized. My Dad removed the case, exchanged it for a rebuilt one and everything sat on his garage floor for the next 20 years.

At Dad's house and the Jeep is barely visible. Junk piled up on all sides, top and underneath. It took all day to remove the clutter and gain some access to her.

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I've managed to locate the various pieces for the transfer case and get ready to load the Jeep on to the trailer. The first thing I notice is that there is no e-brake and the brake pedal goes to the floor. Good thing I grabbed my come-along and tow straps. One click at a time and she is finally loaded.

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2 days drive and I'm back home. Time to unload her and get her ready for some big repairs.

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I drained the remains of 20 year old gas from her. The tank is rusted and I have just bought a new one along with a new sender. Much cheaper than the prices I got for boil, cleaning and seal.

Time to look at the brake issues. It appears as if the owner before my Dad needed the entire e-brake assembly. No drum or backing plate on the transfer case. No cable, brackets or pull handle either. Do I just forego the e-brake, thoughts?? The master cylinder is void of any fluid and the inside looks really bad. New master needs to be ordered and I might as well just get the wheel cylinders while I'm at it.

I turn my attention to the front axle and have pulled everything off the LF down to the knuckle. The wheel bearings have no grease, but a sludgy residue on them. I'm expecting to see the thick grease Bob has described in the knuckle, but there is only the thick sludge at the very base of the knuckle case. The axle looks good and the u-joint is solid (no slop or yoke play). The sludge has the distinct odor of gear oil and I suspect the inner seals leak. I want to replace the u-joints with the sealed style Bob has described as I want to run the knuckle dry. Does this u-joint look like the sealed style? I don't think it is, but would like a second, third, forth opinion.

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This is where I am up to now. The family leaves in a couple days for our Summer vacation and I will return in a couple weeks to continue. Please throw your thoughts and ideas my way. I look forward to hearing from all of you.

-David

[bmorgil]

It does look like a sealed joint. Easy enough to tell David, if there is no grease zerk and no provision for one (no drilled hole in the end of one of the caps or the center cross itself) it is a sealed U-joint.

[davide]

Thanks for that input Bob (please let me know if you prefer bmorgil, I don't want to offend anyone).

Everything you said is correct about the u-joint not having a zerk. I was only hesitant because the bottom of a sealed u-joint generally has a boot or other seal at the bottom of the cap. Here is a better picture that you can see the needle bearings exposed at the base of the cap. No boot exists on these.

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[bmorgil]

Whoa! Glad you sent that photo (and I put my glasses on). Those are original. The seal was removed and the joint was to run in a lube bath. It will quickly burn up if the knuckle runs low on lube or runs in contaminated lube. The sealed U-Joint is a Spicer 5-260X.

You can call me anything but late for dinner.... been waiting to use that one!

[davide]

I picked up a 15 tooth speedo gear and threaded bushing as it was missing in my Dana 18, single shifter t-case. I can get the gear in the transfer case and hand tighten the retainer bushing all the way down. I expect to see the end of the speedo shaft, where the square speedo cable goes into it turn, but I don't. The speedo drive gear is inside the transfer case and I do see it turn when I turn the output yoke. I can barely see the mate between the drive gear and the speedo gear as well (when the retainer bushing is out). So I am at a loss on why the speedo gear isn't turning.

I called the store I purchased it from and asked what the difference was between the 3 different 15 tooth gears they offer. The answer I got was, "a 15 tooth speedo gear is a 15 tooth speedo gear. They are all the same". The difference on their Website was model specific and I did verify that what I ordered is not what they sent me :( Is he correct in his statement? Oh yeah, of course he does not have what I specifically ordered.

There are Stewart Warner casting numbers on these shafts and the one I received was 448162 that is applicable for SW/SD/PU models.

[5JeepsAz]

Glad you are double checking. Thats the smart way. My only add is blocks can be an e brake. Blocks can't be a piston or paint. I put the e brake on the tomorrow list for mine. Same with the speed-o. In fact, they will probably be fall since I'm more interested in running and driving. Depends on what you can tolerate as you go through. Is yours a fix it once, fix a you go build? Or a get it running and paint it later build?

[davide]

Hello, my end goal is to get her running as Washington has a fairly short Summer and I want to have some wheeling. I am not going to get her all dolled up as I would be too paranoid to to get a scratch. The body is in great condition and the paint is good enough. She just needs a lot of work!

I did do some research and did find that (at least on kaiserwillys parts pages, their speedo gear is the same part number for CJ/SW/SD/PU models. So it does appear as if all the 15 tooth gears are interchangeable.

Here is the short list of all systems that need some kind of work to get it on the road or trails:
- drivetrain
- brakes
- engine
- fuel
- electrical

I have started on the drivetrain and brakes, but it seems the more I do, the more that needs to be done. I hope this is not perpetual!

[bmorgil]

David I think you should settle in and think along the lines that you are probably going to have to fix about everything! She is old man. Just stay with it and fix as you go. I think your on track. Yes expect to be tinkering on your old classic till the end of time. Get it moving and stopping and go from there.

It sounds like it is possible the speedo drive gear on the output shaft has an issue if the pencil gear is not turning.

[davide]

I've been thinking about the speedo drive gear some more and think that it may be installed backwards. The more I look at the the way the splines would align, it appears incorrect. It looks fairly straight forward to remove the housing the "pencil gear" goes into, reverse the drive gear on the output shaft (180 turn to have the spline angled different) and see what happens.

This transfer case is filled with a lot of mystery as it was a rebuilt exchange from 20 years ago. I don't feel the need to tear it all apart, but it will set some serious doubt in my head if flipping the drive gear does the trick.

One question about this, there are some shims between the main housing and the "pencil gear" cap housing. I was curious as to what I use to seal the unit back up. A gasket or RTV? Is there a spec on the torque of the various bolts on the transfer case (including the yoke nuts)?

[TJones]

Something has me a little puzzled.
A few threads back David you mentioned it was a “single shifter Dana 18 transfer case”
“Doctor Dana” would be able to answer this, what year did they switch from a double lever to a single lever Dana 18 TC?
This makes me wonder if it has in fact a T90 tranny bolted to a Dana 18 TC and if that is the mystery with the speedo and the ebrake?

[bmorgil]

Good catch TJ. We are going to say it is a model 20 if there is only one stick. The year for the switch was 1961 62 ish on the bigger J series vehicles. The CJ5's were switched in 1972. So the 20 transfer case was around for someone to swap it in. And of course you never know what Willys might have done since the 20 was in the plant and so were the 18's for a long time.

The single stick 18 was in the optional Buick powered CJ's starting in 1966 (not used with the T90 trans). So it could also be one of those, a rare model 18 to say the least.

It is also possible to combine parts between the 18 and the 20 and build a Hi-Performance model 18 so to speak. They both can be built into a single or dual stick configuration. The biggest difference in the 20 is the case. It is stronger. The 20 worked well in the 1 ton trucks.

David, the shims are there to set the proper preload for the output bearing. Spray each shim with "Permatex Hi-Tack". A very thin cote.

[LarrBeard]

David:

You are ready for the Rules of Jeep with your project:

A. What you see is what you have.

B. Trust nothing someone tells you or what you might read until you verify it yourself.

C. As you go through things and find strange stuff; never say "Willys would never have _________________ ." As Bob said about the Model 18 and Model 20 transfer cases - they probably did - just to get vehicles out the door.

[davide]

I'm back from the family vacation. Spent some time in SC and GA. The humidity was mighty fierce, but we had a great trip.

TJ/Bob/LB, to pick up on your TC and tranny comments, I know the tranny is a T86AA as the casting is very visible (and it has a Dauntless V6). The castings on the TC are very hard to read and I will post a pic of it at a later date. It is a good mystery.

For now, I have picked up again on the front axle and fuel tank since my return.

The fuel tank I picked up appears to have the same fit and form with the exception of a missing fitting on the top near the fuel inlet neck. The original tank has a threaded fitting near the filler neck. The line from that fitting goes to the fuel pump and is next to the fuel intake line that runs to the bottom of the fuel tank. My guess is that this is a vent or emission vapor return line (as the motor is emissions equip).

Does this mean I need a new fuel pump that only has the single intake fitting on the bottom of it? Can I just plug this vapor line on the pump?

[bmorgil]

The fuel should be drawn from the bottom of the tank. The hole in the top sounds like an "addition". Show us some pictures of the pump and tank. It sounds like someone has added a return line. It could be a West Coast requirement for fuel vents.

If you are correct and it is a vent, no you cant plug it. Originally it was vented to the atmosphere. In the case of our diaphragm style fuel pumps, it is a vent that allows fuel to escape outside the pump in the event the diaphragm ruptures or leaks. Fuel is vented to the atmosphere and hopefully someone notices before the crankcase fills with it (fuel). In emissions compliant vehicles this fuel cannot escape to the atmosphere. You will also find this set up on marine engines.

Add: To return it to original you would fix the hole in the tank and allow the vent to go to the atmosphere.

[davide]

The Dauntless is definitely equip with CA emission. I called KW.com and talked with Mile about the availability of this tank (with evap return on top) and he said no. He wanted me to just plug off the evap return line on the fuel pump and use a vented cap. Well, I am not going to do that.

I have run into a similar situation with crankcase venting and installed a breathable K&N filter instead of running the closed loop system. I think I can do the exact same thing here.

I am thinking about running the evap return from the fuel pump up to a similar kind of K&N filter and possibly create a trap in it (like a standard sink basin). As you stated, if the pump diaphragm gives or there is an over-pressure situation in the fuel intake, I want the vent to be able to handle that and not seep into the block. 8473 8474

[bmorgil]

You may not need anything on it at all as long as it is the vent and not a pressure by-pass. If it is a pressure bypass fuel will come out under low use conditions. If it is a by-pass, it needs to be blocked and sealed to hold pressure. It does look like a By-Pass style. There is also nothing wrong with hooking it back up. There are a few different ways to hook it to you new tank. Of course you will have to drill a hole in it.

You don't want to treat it like a crankcase vent. If it is a vent for a diaphragm leak and you don't need it, the vent in the tank should be blocked and the fuel pump vent can just go to atmosphere. It never draws air in. It is only on the pump to direct fuel out in the event of a diaphragm leak. Just leave it open on the fuel pump and block the tank and use a vented cap if you don't want to use the return to tank. It should never be venting fuel anyway, only if the fuel pump fails. On the newer vehicles that used a "vented" pump (non by-pass) in an emissions environment, that vent hose went to an emissions evaporation canister.

The best thing to do would be to crank the motor and see if it is pushing fuel out of that line. If it isn't you don't need the line. Judging on the location of the line, I am going to say it is a By-Pass type pump and a small amount of fuel will come out.

[davide]

Sometimes I kick myself for not RTFM first. The Universal Series service manual says this about the fuel pump return line, "...Dauntless has a special fuel pump which has a metering outlet for a vapor return system. Any vapor which forms is is returned to the tank along with hot fuel...this greatly reduces the possibility of vapor lock...". Looks like I will be drilling a hole in a brand new tank and putting in this grommet assembly (https://www.amazon.com/Shut-Off-Generators-Craftsman-Snowblower-Carbhub/dp/B07M8LJN9V/ref=sr_1_14?dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqP_vvtaz8QIVuDytBh1zpAdNEAAYASAA EgI69vD_BwE&hvadid=409946560078&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033289&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4078387603501245890&hvtargid=kwd-1997186103&hydadcr=7113_11098778&keywords=fuel+tank+grommet&qid=1624655281&sr=8-14).

[bmorgil]

The By-Pass style pump does a great job at preventing vapor lock. It sounds like they were having a problem with it. Switching to a non By-Pass might just be a bad idea!

[davide]

Thought I might give a little update on things. I've been in the Tahoe region the past 10 days, most of it on the Rubicon Trail. No shortage of Jeeps there.

BTW, Happy Birthday Willys/Jeep!! 80 years and still going strong.

I've spent most of my time getting rid of the rust that was on the body pan under the fuel tank. There are two exposed holes for the tank lines that let all water and other road debris in. Lots of navel jelly and sanding to get rid of most of the rust. Primer and paint seems to have it looking decent again and the rust pits were minor.

Now I start looking at the new tank and how I am going to make the necessary modifications for what I think is the vapor return line. The more I compare the replacement tank with the original, the more I notice something isn't right. The original tank looks to have the fuel pick up on the top of the tank and the vapor return line on the bottom.

I decided to try and clean the original tank of the varnish build up and (what I thought was) rust where the remaining fuel sat for 20 years. To my surprise, a few cans of carb cleaner cleaned the inside up incredibly well. There is no rust, as I thought, and the varnish is all but gone.

I'll put some new welts on (as there were none) and put the tank back in.

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[bmorgil]

Good deal David. You may want to consider coating the inside of the tank with some of gmwillys favorite stuff, Red-Cote. It is great just in case.

http://damonq.com/red-kote.html

[davide]

Thanks Bob, that's a great idea. I saw a little rust on the outside bottom of the tank, cleaned and painted it too. It's drying now and I will put the welts on tomorrow and reinstall.

I got back to cleaning up the LF hub area and saw that my upper king pin bearing was dry. Of course, the race and bearing were wasted. As long as I am doing the upper, I might as well replace all of them on both sides.

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I think that getting the race out should be straight forward, but thought I might ask if there are any tricks or pitfalls to be aware of. I also noticed that my brake hose looks cracked and will replace both of those while I'm at it.

[davide]

Oops, forgot to ask about this too. On the king pins themselves, part of the casting below the bearing is discolored. A purple-ish hue that looks like the metal was very, very hot. Is this normal? What might have caused it?

This isn't the best pic, but gives an idea to what I am seeing 8587

[bmorgil]

No tricks it should come apart fairly easy. I would say someone had a bearing freeze on that pin. It looks like a torch was used to heat up the bearing to get it off. If there was a bearing failure there would be no motion there that would cause heat, just looseness. For sure on the brake hose.

[davide]

Hello All, I am back at it again. Some life events had me away for a few months, but I am back at it.

Bob, thanks for the info on the king bearing races. They did pop out easily as you said they would. I also picked up some Red-Kote at my local O'Reilly's and coated the tank.

I have to take it easy for a few more weeks, so I thought I would pick up at the speedo gear again. Recall that I was not able to get the speedo pencil gear to mesh with the transfer case speedometer drive gear.

Today I took off the speedo gear housing (aka rear bearing cap) and examined the speedo drive gear. I compared it to the one shown on the WK parts page for a Dana 18. Two things stood out:

1. My speedo drive gear is 7 tooth and the KW parts catalogue drive gear (#A1511) looks to be 6 tooth.
2. My speedo drive gear has no collar/flange on the end and the A1511 does.

A quick Google search on the cast number of my speedo drive gear (SW-447537-18-7) appears to be for a Dana 20. So now I don't know what I have for a transfer case. Here are a few pictures of my transfer case. Might one of you be able to tell? You will also see how my pencil gear and drive gear don't align.

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[bmorgil]

A few more pictures will help. Particularly a few pictures that show any casting numbers on the case. The shifter mechanism looks like a 20. Though as we spoke of before, it could be a single stick 18. It could also be a "Super 18" as Novac calls them. A large bore 18 using the 20 case. There are a few shifter setups on the 20. More pictures will help. A lot of things can happened to the 18. People put all kinds of conversions in them. I have also seen people use the 20 case. The 20 is easy to identify. The output is centered or straight out the back where the PTO would go on the 18. The casting number still starts with 18 whether it is an 18 or a 20.

The 18 uses a 4 tooth speedometer drive gear (Willys A-1511) and a 12 tooth speedometer driven gear (Willys A-5707) in early CJ's.

The SW-447537-18-7 is a 6 tooth drive gear used in '62 and up Model 18's and 20's on some CJ's and most Pick ups, with 4 different driven gears, 15, 16, 17 or 18 teeth depending on the vehicles gear ratio.

[davide]

Bob, I've edited yesterdays post as it looks like the first picture of the transfer case showing the casting numbers was too large. Let me know if this helps or if more detail is needed, thanks.

[bmorgil]

I am going to say that is a model 20 case with model 18 internals, sometimes called a "Super 18" davide. What is the axle ratio? That will tell us the speedo gear combination. You will need a 15, 16, 17 or 18 tooth driven gear depending on the axle ratio, to use with your 447537 drive gear.

A model 20 has the input shaft and the output shaft in line. In other words the output is where the PTO would go on an 18. You can use model 18 internals in a 20 case however and make a "Super 18". It looks like the output is in the model 18 location. I would say however, that is a model 20 case. So it is the correct transfer case for a Jeep with a Buick V6 engine. A large bore "Super 18". This case first appeared around 1966 or 1967.

[davide]

Thanks Bob. Assuming this is what you are looking for, the axle ratio is 3.73. Let me know if you are looking for something different.

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I apologize for the inverted image and have tried numerous things to have it right side up without success.

[bmorgil]

I have an old Stewart Warner chart that shows the Stewart Warner 448856 is 16 teeth and was for the 4.09 ratio. The 448855 is 15 teeth and is for the 3.53 ratio. These mate correctly with your drive gear part number. Depending on your tires, one of these will be as close as you can get. With tall tires the 15 tooth is probably as close as you are going to get.

[davide]

Bob, does your SW chart mention the 3.73 ratio? I am not looking for perfect speed accuracy. Just something that gets me close.

I understand what you have said regarding what you think my transfer case may be (and appreciate that), but I don't know if I get a pencil gear that will mate with the current drive gear or get a new drive gear that mates with my current pencil gear. Which BTW the pencil gear I have is a 15 tooth gear, SW448162. My tires are 31" Goodyear Wranglers.

KW parts does have the Dana 18 speedo drive gear available (A1511) and I am wondering if this will resolve my issue. Or do you think that I should find the pencil gear for the Dana 20 drive gear (and axle ratio) I have? Seems to me like 6 of one and half dozen the other...

[bmorgil]

The 3.73 ratio is not listed in my chart. That wont matter much unless you are using stock diameter tires. 31 tall tires are going to match up pretty well with the 3.53 ratio gears. To get it perfect you can use a ratio adapter. The speedo gears are matched sets. If you mix and match speedo gears they are not going to mesh correctly. Your 448162 pencil gear doesn't show up in the chart I have. I don't know what drive gear part number mates with it. There were a lot of speedometer combinations and parts used during the later years. The change to plastic gears comes in around the late '60s. There were several part numbers. The key is to use the correct drive gear/driven gear mated combination. You should not use a combination that is not matched. As you showed in your photo, though you have a 15 tooth gear, it doesn't match your drive gear. I would say someone pulled a gear from a different vehicle like a Bronco or IH Scout. The pencil gears are made to match a specific drive gear.

You could swap in the original A-1511 and A-5707. These are for a 5.38 ratio. You would then correct the speedometer with an adapter from a speedometer shop. I would put together the best matched combination you can find and correct it with an adapter. This is the way most of them end up as getting the right gears is getting difficult. On mine I use the original gears and tall tire's and I "do the math" on the speedometer! I know how far off it is. I have seen the speedo pencil gear strip the gear and cause a jumpy speedometer. This is usually the plastic gears. Using unmatched gears usually ends up with an erratic speedometer and stripped gears.

Speedometer adapters: https://speedometercablesusa.com/gear_box_adapters.html

[TJones]

Here is another site that has speedo adaptors that I have used for my speedo

https://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/speedo.asp

[davide]

Thanks guys for those links. Seems I spent way too much time researching the Super 18 and the drive/driven gear combinations today.

To refresh on the driven gear I bought (448162), it is for SW/SD/PU models. BTW, I will NEVER use a certain Willys parts store in Yuma, AZ again!!

Since my Super 18 is still based on Dana 18 internals, I am going to purchase the A1511 drive gear and see if it aligns with the above driven gear. If not, I will look into one of the other driven gear options we have discussed earlier.

Time to shift gears for now (pun intended) and finish tearing down the right side of the front axle so I can get it all rebuilt.

[51 CJ3]

If a person really needed an accurate speedometer, they could also mount their phone where it can be seen and just use their favorite gps app. Before we had super computers in our pockets I had a CJ5 that I could not keep a speedo cable in. It broke 3 before I gave up and just went without.

[TJones]

Thanks guys for those links. Seems I spent way too much time researching the Super 18 and the drive/driven gear combinations today.

To refresh on the driven gear I bought (448162), it is for SW/SD/PU models. BTW, I will NEVER use a certain Willys parts store in Yuma, AZ again!!

Since my Super 18 is still based on Dana 18 internals, I am going to purchase the A1511 drive gear and see if it aligns with the above driven gear. If not, I will look into one of the other driven gear options we have discussed earlier.

Time to shift gears for now (pun intended) and finish tearing down the right side of the front axle so I can get it all rebuilt.

Try this website, it may help

https://www.tciauto.com/speedometer-gear-calculator

[bmorgil]

I am going to purchase the A1511 drive gear and see if it aligns with the above driven gear.

David, as I mentioned below, the gear sets are "Matched". The A1511 only Correctly matches up to the A-5707. A mismatch usually ends up putting metal shavings in the case when the gear teeth wear off. You should never mix speedometer gears between sets. The tooth profiles are different.

[TJones]

David, as I mentioned below, the gear sets are "Matched". The A1511 only Correctly matches up to the A-5707. A mismatch usually ends up putting metal shavings in the case when the gear teeth wear off. You should never mix speedometer gears between sets. The tooth profiles are different.

That is correct bmorgil, a mis-matched set will end up in disaster trust me I learned the disaster way :(:(:(

[davide]

OK, got it. I appreciate all of this feedback and will focus on a matched set.

I ordered the sealed 5-260X u-joints for the front axles today. They should be here tomorrow and hoping I can get them changed out Monday. I'll update on that too.

[davide]

I removed the left axle u-joint the old school way. Big socket, little socket and a vice. Not much fun, but it worked. This morning I went to my local auto store and got a loaner u-joint tool. Wish I would have done that first!!

I am getting ready to put the new sealed u-joint on and noticed the rubber boots doing all the sealing appear to be damaged. They looked new and I am guessing this is a manufacturing issue. I am asking for some thoughts/advice on using these based on these pictures. Would you use these if you were going to run dry knuckles?

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[LarrBeard]

Man - those seals look like they have dried out and cracked. I wonder just how old those jonts are and how long they have been sitting on somene's shelves? I wouldn't use them .... I'd try again for a better set.

I've run into a similar issue with u-joint seal boots on my Timken drive shaft. Even "new" boots only last about 500-or so miles before they crack and split at the folds in the bellows.

[bmorgil]

Those wont seal, return them. It looks like someone took pliers to them.

[51 CJ3]

I didn’t know they make a tool for u-joints. For years my usual method involved a hammer and a fat punch or socket and extension. If I had access to a good jack I would use it and the vehicle I was working on as a press.

[davide]

Replacement u-joints ordered!

I put down a refundable deposit of $150 at my local O'Reilly's. It is nothing more than a C-clamp on steroids. A large end to let the cap pass though and the threaded rod to push on the opposite cap. So much easier than the vice and socket routine, plus lots of YouTube videos showing how to use the tool.

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[bmorgil]

You guy's! And here is the retired Spicer guy telling you, common boys get a cheap China Freight press for your shop!

One thing to watch for especially on front fragile half shafts, if the caps are frozen in tight, make sure you fab up something to prevent the yoke ears from getting bent together when you press the caps out. Put something between the ears to support them. A common complaint is I cant get the new U-Joint back in correctly after I pressed the old one out. If they are really stuck, help them out with a little heat, penetrate and some support between the yoke ears. If you bend the yoke ears the shaft is junk.

[davide]

You have valid points Bob. I don't have a shop or a press (yet). I have to use the resources available to me and be smart with their use. The good news is that the replacement u-joints looked much better and I was able to easily get the left axle done. I don't have the right side removed yet.

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[bmorgil]

I understand your position David! I have replaced MANY U-Joints in a vice with sockets. In fact the technique can be hard to beat if the caps aren't frozen in. I still use that method every now and then, even though there is a press sitting right there!

[davide]

Well, Winter is over and I'm back to working on the CJ again without my hands going numb in fifteen minutes. I have everything striped and clean on the front axle and am ready to order all new seals, bearings, brake hoses, master cyl. and wheel cylinders. And lets not forget about the t-case drive and driven gears.

I called to ask Mike (at KW.com) a question about the driven gear, only to find out that the gear kit is on an infinite back order. So I did a little research and found that the matched mate to my drive gear (SW447537) is SW448856. I am curious if anyone on this site might have one kicking around and would like to sell it to me!?

I am also curious to see if anyone on the forum has any tips or tricks to installing the inner axle seals. Do I really need a special seal driver or does a "x" sized socket work perfect.

Hopefully, I won't find any more backordered items tomorrow when I hit the ORDER button :)

[bmorgil]

An X sized socket will work. You can make your own tool with 2 sockets and/or washers and a piece of all-thread and two nuts. You need to be sure the seals push in square.

[davide]

Thanks Bob. Clever, efficient and inexpensive.

FYI, the front axle u-joints went together nicely last year. Thanks for your insight on that too.

[bmorgil]

Your welcome davide! It sounds like you are making good progress. I cant wait to see it on the road.

[davide]

In anticipation of getting all of my goodies for the front end, I am trying to understand the test procedure for the kingpin bearing load test. There were shims in both upper bearing caps and I have kept them as they were when I tore it down. And BTW, both side kingpin bearings were shot. Drivers side upper was the worst (I think I posted a pic of one previously).

The Universal Series Service Manual talks about a scale reading of 12 to 16lbs when the knuckle has started its sweep. I understand the sweep of the knuckle, but don't know of a simple way to measure this load. How critical is it to get it spot on? Will a "resistance feel" tell me the same thing?

[51 CJ3]

Fish scale works well. Take the reading when the knuckle starts moving. My guess is too tight might affect steering. Too loose could let the front end shimmy.

[bmorgil]

Jeff is correct on both points. A fish scale works well. Too tight and the wheel will have difficulty returning to center after a turn. Too loose and you will get shimmying and if it is loose enough, it is the cause of "Death Rattle". An out of control front wheel shake when the looseness starts to resonate. "Death Rattle" can shake the vehicle right off the road. I like to keep the load on the high side. I wouldn't worry if it gets a little too tight. Much better than too loose. You are looking for a good smooth pull around 16lbs or so. Keep the scale at 90deg to the hub as you pull.

[LarrBeard]

" "Death Rattle" can shake the vehicle right off the road."

Been there, had it happen. It didn't shake me of the road, but it did make me have to come to a complete stop in the middle of a busy state highway.

[davide]

As it turns out, my wife picked up a digital scale to check luggage weight. I razzed her about that and now have to eat some crow as I have borrowed it to use for this.

Bob, I noticed that your picture has the hub fully assembled when performing the test. My axle is fully striped down with only the steering knuckle attached via the kingpin. This seems to be how the Universal Manual describes the procedure. Should I assemble the entire brake/hub assembly when doing the test?

[bmorgil]

No need to have it assembled all the way. The important thing is to keep the scale 90 deg to the spindle and a fairly smooth pull. That photo is a grab of a different type of vehicle. I think it is a truck. The process is the same however. Just hook the scale into the tie rod hole and pull maintaining that 90. You shouldn't have any seals assembled. Theoretically you don't want to add any drag from the seals.

[davide]

I got the last of my front end parts a couple days ago and have started getting things back together (almost).

With the tie rod ends off the steering knuckles, I got the passenger side knuckle at 15 lbs after removing two shims. The drivers side, with the original shims back, is at 18 lbs. I haven't added any shims yet to lower the pull weight, but I have two to work with.

As long as I was having to remove the tie rod ends, I wanted to replace the boots on them as a couple were rotted with time and oil. When I got the steering rods out and cleaned up, I saw that 3 of the 4 tie rods ends looked worn and oblong. They were all still fairly tight, but I figure that these need to be replaced too. Here are some pics to show. Also note that I have a steering damper shock bracket on one of the rod tubes. I don't think that this is stock, but am not sure (and yes, there is a steering damper attached).
9464 9465

[bmorgil]

The tie rods look pretty beat up. I would replace them. The assembly with the tab welded on is modified. The steering damper is not stock. The tab and the piece of pipe slid over the rod and welded in place, are "fixes". The tie rod was bent and the pipe was added and welded in to try to keep it from bending again. This reinforcement is common in off roading. The tab was probably added to make the stabilizer mount more permanent. I would replace it all and not use the stabilizer. 18# is a good number. A little tight is much better than a little loose. As long as its a fairly smooth pull.

[LarrBeard]

You are doing the right things. Getting it to run is important and that is where a lot of guys put their emphasis, but making sure it stops is just as important.

After those two things get done correctly, making sure it goes in the direction you point it is way up on the list of things that have to go right. If you get little details done, you will be amazed at how well it drives!

[davide]

Thanks guys, all good things to know. I'll keep the knuckles as is. They pull very smoothly and the pull weight on both is very consistent from start to finish.

The comment about the tie rod tube makes perfect sense. The owner before my Dad was a big Rubicon Trail wheeler. I still don't know if I will discard this set up for now, but is something that I can change easily later.

Now I'm starting to wonder if the steering gear box is a mod too. From the parts diagrams, there is a much different gear box and a bellcrank assembly, which I do not have. Is this something that is common for off roading too? If so, what did it come out of?

9469

[bmorgil]

The steering gear box is a mod as you suspect. If you click on the attachment the picture shows up on my screen.

[davide]

Well....I'm back at it again. After a dismal Summer of trying to sell our house (and unable to do so), my wife and I are unpacked and I am back to getting the Hot Mess back together.

Over the past couple days, I have managed to get the front axle inner seals in, the knuckles lubed and seals back on and am putting the differential assembly back in. My Universal Manual does not give the torque for the differential bearing cap, but I found another thread that says 50 ft. lbs. for a Dana 27. Does this sound correct? I ask because it took more than what I would consider 50 pounds using a breaker bar to remove them.

I am also concerned that there may be a certain way the caps go back on. They are stamped and I do not know the significance of these markings. It may mean nothing, but I don't want to assume. I went through all my photos hoping to find the original configuration, but it appears I didn't get one of the differential before removing it. Here is a pic. I only have the cap bolts hand tighten.

9939

[51 CJ3]

Page 205, paragraph N-11 of the Universal Manual:

"the assembly may be installed by
cocking the bearing cups slightly when the differential
is placed in the carrier. See Fig. 258.
Tap the unit carefully into place, making sure the
ring gear teeth mesh with the pinion teeth. Install
bearing caps, matching their markings with those
on the carrier. Apply sealing compound to the screw
threads. Torque the screws 70 to 90 lb-ft."

The markings are also covered in paragraph N-6. Since they are mentioned in both the disassembly and reassembly procedures, my assumption is that it is fairly critical.

Before anyone points out that Section N is for the rear axle, please note the Section M states the procedure is the same and refers you to Section N.

[davide]

Thanks Jeff!!

I must have a different version of the Universal Manual. N-6 in my manual is "Lubricating Unit Bearing" and is for the flanged axle. N-12 (page 294 in my book) is for Diff Case Disassembly and does mention to match the cap and housing markings.

That was a huge find! I will pull the diff out in the morning and look for markings inside the housing. Thanks again.

[davide]

I do believe that I have it figured out. The markings are VERY subtle, but they are there.

If you look at the pic above and look at the left side cap, you will see a horizontal S just below the stamped triangle. Then on the left side of the housing, you can barely make out the corresponding horizontal S directly across. On the right side, which is harder to make out in my pic is a vertical S just below the stamped triangle. And there is a vertical S directly across on the right side housing.

In addition to all this, the wear on the housing and cap align perfectly from the bearing race. So by some small miracle, I have the caps in correctly. Just a little Loctite and torque needed...

[bmorgil]

Jeff has you on the right track davide. To answer your concern, it is imperative that the caps go back on exactly the way they came off. The caps are installed and machined in place. They are in effect "mated" to their location. If the caps have switched location in reassembly, most of the time the cap will crack in half when it is torqued.

Now that torque spec. This one is a bit of a mess. The manual indeed points you to 70 to 90ft.lbs., which is too much for the little Model 25. I don't know where this went awry but it did. The 70-90ft.lbs. specification is for the Model 44. On the Model 25 through Model 28, the spec is 40-50ft.lbs.. On the Model 30 it is 55-60ft.lbs. and it is 70 -90 ft.lbs. on the Model 44.

The caps can only be replaced by machining new caps in place with a line boring process. Even if the caps don't crack on reinstall at torque up, the unit will probably fail the caps or the bearing or both, in a short period of time if assembled in the wrong possition.

[51 CJ3]

I will take bmorgil's word over the manual in this case. I am glad I posted the quote or I would have torqued mine to the spec in my book. The digital Universal Manual I have is FORM SM-1002-R6. My paper manual is out in the shop. I will have to check it out to see if it is the same. TM9-1804B (M38 manual) lists 38-42 ft pounds for the 25 and 44. I have to say, I really don't care for all of the conflicting information. I thought I had a Dana or Spicer specific manual saved somewhere but can't seem to find it now.

edit: I found the Spicer manual but it's just for the 44.

[bmorgil]

Jeff I agree the spec is posted all over the internet and in some manuals, with many different numbers. 38-42 ft.lbs is the specification on the original model 25 that appeared in the Military Jeeps. It is the specification in the original Military Manual for the early 25 Model. Anything around 40 to 50ft.Lbs. is going to keep the little 25 model together.

The best way to be sure when you do not have a clear idea of the manufactures specification, is to use the S.A.E. bolt specification. This is what the engineers are referring to when designing. Identify the bolt type and the thread pitch, then apply the S.A.E. specification. The threads are installed dry. Use the dry specification for torque. S.A.E. Bolt torque is a recommendation by the S.A.E..The actual torque can vary based on a lot of things so, it is best to get the right number from the manufacturer. But in a pinch the S.A.E. chart will keep you out of trouble.

https://floorjacked.com/sae-bolt-torque-chart-grade-2-grade-5-grade-8/

[51 CJ3]

I use general torque specs quite a bit. I figure I have spent around $2,000 over the years buying torque wrenches to cover everything from 10 inch/pounds to 600 foot/pounds that I have to send out for calibration checks from time to time. I like to get my money's worth out of them. Almost all of them read inch/pounds because I am an aircraft mechanic so I have to convert a lot when working on cars. One thing about using calibrated torque wrenches I really like is that I almost never break or strip anything. If I do, I know it wasn't something I did.

The problem with randomly collecting information posted on the internet is that it is rare to know if a source is legitimate. I have been lurking around here long enough to know a little bit about bmorgil's background. He knows his stuff. If I was a newbie to the site I wouldn't be so confident about his information. Even so, I would like to have something in my document collection that confirms the proper torque values for the different models. I am very big on using manuals and when one is wrong I like to have it verified by another published source and I try not to post information that I cannot back up. Even if it is wrong, like the quote from the jeep manual I posted above. Something from Spicer would be ideal. Everything I have found from jeep just repeats the same info in the manuals I already have on hand.

I was just reading a random thread about overhauling a Dana 25 axle. The write-up is very nice with good photos. They torqued the caps to 80 foot pounds because that is what the manual they have says to do and there are no manuals I have found to refute it. They also called for high strength thread locker even though the jeep manual calls for thread sealer. I found the post through a link on another flat fender forum.

[bmorgil]

I might have a very old service manual around here somewhere. I have the 44 manuals but a genuine Spicer model 25 axle manual would be rare. I only remember engineering notes and notes on the blueprints. The information I have and used in Tech service, came from those notes on the prints. I don't think one was ever officially published for the early stuff, model 25 or 27. Usually the O.E. in those days had the publishing power and the suppliers would provide the technical. By the time I got involved in the publications it was the 80's. I have a lot of 44, 60 and 70 stuff. Any info on the Model 25 and 27 will have to come from original Jeep service manuals. We can see that is where it appears to have run off the tracks.

Here is what it should be:

Early Military Dana 25 Model 38 - 42 Ft.Lbs
Dana 25/27 Jeep Models 45 - 50 Ft.Lbs
Dana 30 Model 55 - 60 Ft.Lbs.
Dana 44 Model 70 - 90 Ft.Lbs.

[davide]

Bob and Jeff, I have really enjoyed reading your comments and digging into this spec. The cap bearing torque did appear to be ambiguous and now has concrete data for the various axle sizes. Perhaps another entry for this in the Tech Library so others can view it?

[bmorgil]

Ask and you shall receive davide!

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?3117-Correct-Axle-Carrier-Bearing-Cap-Torque

On another note, Jeff's point about sealer on the threads. If the carrier bolts in an axle go all the way through the case, they will leak if their isn't sealer on them. Thread locker isn't required, sealer is. High strength thread locker (Red) might prevent the removal of the bolts. It would take a lot of heat to break the bond and the threads are deep in the case. Also if you use anything on bolts that DO NOT go all the way through the case (blind taped holes) the hydraulic effect can cause a few problems from cracked cases to incorrect torque readings. So not only is the torque spec important, whether or not there is sealer or lubricant on the threads is also just as important. Anything on the threads also changes the torque specification. This goes again to Jeff's point of needing a "truthful" complete manual! I will say I haven't found one yet that doesn't have at least one mistake in it. Big books for total perfection!

[51 CJ3]

Thanks a lot for the information. I am making notes in my paper service manuals.

Tech manuals are far from perfect. We used send corrections for tech manuals all the time maintaining the A-10 and U-2. They probably still do.

[davide]

I see it's been several months since last updating my progress. I'm pretty much done with both axles and brakes. Here is a recap on all that has been done:

Front axle:
- New inner seals
- New sealed axle u-joints (going to a dry hub configuration)
- New king bearings
- New front wheel cylinders
- New front brake hoses and S-tubes
- New master cylinder
- New wheel bearing seals
- New differential cover gasket (LubLocker)

I have a new pinion seal, but don't have that in yet. All wheel bearings were in good condition and they were packed with fresh grease. I noted previously that all the tie rod ends were worn, but I put new boots on them and have regreased all zerks. I do plan on replacing them in the near future.

Rear axle:
- New wheel cylinders
- New brake hose
- New shoes
- New differential cover gasket (LubLocker)

I have tapered axle shafts and they appear in great condition. I removed the backing plate and other covers to gain access to the bearings. They looked to be in good condition and I filled the zerks with enough grease to push out the old and replace with the new. What I did notice was that both front and rear brake spring hardware did not have any self-adjusting pieces. I don't know if this is standard or it was removed prior to my ownership. The Universal Service Manual suggests that it's there.

I'm now off to the engine (Dauntless V6). As this has sat for many, many years, I am taking every bit of advice given by Larrbeard and others on how to proceed (Start-up, Best practices). Most of which I was aware of, but I failed to take into account the cooling, fuel and ignition systems during this process. I am grateful for everyones input to this.

I'll take some pictures later and post them, although there is not too much to see. Mostly because it's not in pieces anymore :)

[TJones]

The Dauntless will make you pull your hair out davide, only because it’s an odd fire motor and not an even fire. Just take your time and do exactly what Larrbeard suggest and if you run into any problems or questions feel free to ask.

[bmorgil]

Your progressing great davide! Lets see those pictures.

The self adjusters when they first came out on vehicles in the early 60's, weren't well received by the general Mechanic population. Automotive shops were still the place to get your car fixed, and they fixed all brands. Not all dealerships had the ability to service cars yet. The Automotive O.E's didn't have the control over service they have now. The self adjusters were seen as troublesome, and poor service information on how they worked and were repaired, led to their removal. The logic of course was the old way was better. As a young lad I was taught to remove them for two reasons. The vehicle would need to continue to come back for brake adjustments just like before, and there would be no problem with the self adjuster causing a "Come Back". We were wrong! We need gmwillys here to jump in but, I think 1967 was the first year for self adjusters on the CJ. If that is true, it is quite possible it could have been built with the older manual adjust brakes depending on inventory at the Willys plant.

[gmwillys]

From what I recall, '67-'68 was the first year for self adjusting brakes. My '63 wagon has manual adjusters just like the previous generations. The bread and butter of your local gas service station was oils and maintenance, i.e. valve, clutch and brake adjustments.

[davide]

Thanks guys for all your feedback!

I have been overthinking which differential fluid to add to the axles. I know it has to be limited slip and I found that Lucas has a Heavy Duty 80W-90 gear oil. The bottle labeling says that it can be used in limited slip differentials and their Technical Data Sheet says that "it exceeds the PG-2 Limited Slip GL Classification". I just don't want to assume that the limited slip additive is combine in the gear oil. I want to know absolute that it is.

Here is why I say this...back in the day, I worked at an AMC, Jeep, Eagle and Renault dealership. I gave our techs countless bottles of the limited slip additive. Perhaps in the early 80's it wasn't incorporated in Penzoil's products we used and now it is. I will probably end up calling Lucas tomorrow.

[gmwillys]

GM had the same type of Whale guts smelling friction modifier that you had put in with the already ripe conventional gear lube. Products like the synthetic Lucus claim that you do not need the friction modifier, but I would let Dr. Dana chime in to see what he knows as facts.

[bmorgil]

You are correct davide, back in the day we had to add the "Friction Modifier". When wet clutch type differentials (Posi-Traction) were introduced, gear lubes did not require the friction modifiers. The new clutch type differentials would gall the clutches without the modifier. This caused clutch "Chatter" when turning which could become severe as the clutches became galled. Eventually they would stick together and cause some big problems when turning. The differential would make a banging and popping sound when turning. It sounded like something was definitely broken.

When you drove straight down the highway, the gear lube would sling off the spinning clutch packs drying them out. When you made your first turn, the clutches would temporarily "weld" together then break loose. The sound was amazing. You would swear when it got real bad that the differential gears were in pieces. The car would jump and bang. Some drivers would leave the car for a tow truck, it was that bad. The service stations and dealerships received a ton of complaints. You could not see anything wrong on inspection of the vehicle. Only a complete differential tear down would reveal the galled clutches. It was truly hard to believe the noise this could make. A lot of head scratching when it first happened. As we can see, the effects of that early "Recall" are still felt today.

All Axle Manufactures (Dana Spicer and O.E's) who introduced the option, quickly had to respond with bulletins and small bottles of friction modifier (appropriately named "Skunk Oil", gmwillys is being kind... it stunk much worse than Whale guts) to be added immediately and at lube changes. The Friction Modifier sticks to the plates and prevents the lack of lubrication. Today it is important to read the label. Most GL5 gear lubes will state they are for Posi-Traction or Limited slip Differentials. If it does not say it is for Limited Slip applications you should not use it in a clutch type differential without an additive. Calling the Lube Manufacture for clarification davide, is always a good idea! That's my go to when in doubt. I haven't had to add Skunk Oil for a long time. I still have a bottle laying around from the 70's just to remind me. I would say almost all modern GL5 lubes have the friction modifier in them.

[davide]

Every time you guys answer a question, it seems like a new Tech Library answer record is created :)

I called Lucas this morning and they did confirm that the limited slip additive is incorporated in the gear oil and that if I needed more additive for some reason, that it was ok to add a few ounces of it. Now that I have a little piece of mind, I will use the Lucas gear oil and should I hear some chatter on turns, I will use the additional additive.

[davide]

Bob, I promised some updated pictures and I took a few today for you. I kept the drums off so you could see the brakes and the standard self-adjusters. I put a new sender on the fuel tank after coating the inside with RedCote. And you might be able to see the new master cylinder above the tank.

The gear oil should come tomorrow and I will add that to the front and rear diffs. I also pulled out a small space heater to warm up the engine oil pan before I drain it.

10216 10217 10218 10219

[bmorgil]

Looking solid! It is coming along nicely.

[davide]

I am sorry that the pictures are rotated incorrectly. I did try to fix them, but did not have any success in getting them displayed correctly. It seems that pics need to be taken in a landscape format, not portrait. If I missed a post on how to correct this, please point me to it.

The gear oil is in both diffs now and I got the rear drums on and the brake adjusters set. It's the first time I have ever delt with manual brakes and kept turning the star adjuster until I felt resistance on the drum.

[51 CJ3]

It doesn’t seem to matter how they are taken on the phone. They post rotated. It took me 5 tries the last time I tried to correct one. I just use the laptop if getting the orientation correct is that important to me.

[davide]

I need some more feedback...

When I was getting ready to grease the front wheel bearings and get the drums on so I could adjust those brakes, I notice this discoloration on my passenger side bearings. I don't know if I'm looking at burnt rollers or an artifact of sitting for 20 years. The bearings aren't cracked or busted. The rollers are smooth and turn well. The outer races have the same look to them. They feel smooth and have no pitting or grooves in them. I'm tempted to grease them up and put them back in, but want to see what the experts have to say.

10239 10240 10241

[bmorgil]

I think that is "Etching". It is hard to tell but it could be etched from sitting in the grease which may have broken down. It looks like more of a stain than damage. I would be concerned that it is more than surface discoloration. You have come this far, I wouldn't chance it.

[davide]

Thanks Bob. I came to the same conclusion and already have 4 sets on order.

[TJones]

[QUOTE=davide;21351]I am sorry that the pictures are rotated incorrectly. I did try to fix them, but did not have any success in getting them displayed correctly. It seems that pics need to be taken in a landscape format, not portrait. If I missed a post on how to correct this, please point me to it.


I have found out that if the pictures are rotated I send them to my home computer via email then create a folder to save them in, then you can edit them, save them in the right format, rotate to the correct orientation or resize them to the right size then repost the on the forum.
It’s a bit of a PITArse but it works for me:)

[davide]

Thanks for the input TJones. This is what I initially did (with the exception of emailing them to myself) and was surprised to have this happen. I have many pics in other posts and never ran into this before. I also made multiple tries as Jeff suggested and that didn't help either. I am persistent and will keep trying...

[TJones]

It works davide, but like I said it’s a PITA

[LarrBeard]

On the other hand, don't worry too much about it. We're used to looking at things upside down, sideways and with rust and dirt in our eyes.

[davide]

I am fairly sure I goofed and pressed the front wheel bearing seal in too deep. If I recall when I tore this all apart a couple years ago, the face of the seal was flush with the hub. There was a little play between the inner part of the seal and the bearing. Here is what I did...

10243 10244

I think I can easily get this seal out and try again if what I believe to be correct is.

Here is the other side with how I believe the seal should be in:

10245

What do the experts think?

[gmwillys]

Davide,

If you are living right, you may be able to persuade the seal to migrate back to flush. With my usual luck, I would spend the money for a replacement seal from the parts house, and start over. You'll be hard pressed to overcome the outer coating of the seal case, without bending the crap out of the inner sealing rubber. If you press on the bearing to use it as a backer to push flat against the seal, it tends to tee pee the inner portion of the seal. Again, you may have the lucky horse shoe hanging in the shop, so you might get lucky and save it. Give it a go, and see where you end up.

[TJones]

I’m with gm, my luck would be to getter back all flush, pat myself on the back, spend about 2 hours putting everything all together then 2 months down the road take her out for her maiden voyage and have it sling grease and oil everywhere over a $6.37 seal:(:(!!!
Replace it while you gotter out,apart and laying right in front of you and we’ll keep it a secret between us davide:):)

[davide]

Thanks again guys for your experienced feedback! I ended up being able to pop the seal out using the washer and axle nut method. No tee pee or damage to the rubber portion of the seal, so I ended up re-using it. In fact, when I originally dismantled this, both axle seals came out looking fantastic too. The rubber on those were very pliable and I have kept them as emergency spares (yes, sometimes my thrift ends up biting me in the rear). So with the exception of the front pinion seal, I am calling the axles finished!!
10248

I started the engine work a couple days ago. A space heater got the oil pan warm and the old oil was drained. Before I drained it, I looked at the dipstick to smell for gas, look for signs of a bad head gasket (milkshake) and overall oil level. The oil poured out easily and no signs of gas or coolant contamination were detected. The only thing I noticed was what appeared to be more than 5 quarts in my drain pan. The dip stick level was way over the fill markers and I attributed that to everything finding it's way to the pan after sitting for years. The radiator looked good for just having water in it. Maybe I will do a pressure test on it and spring some leaks

Here is what I am starting with: 10249 10250 10251 10252
Here are a few things going through my mind:
- Oil bath air filter. Not a fan of it and will probably change it to the set up in the Tech Library
- California emissions (What the bleep!). That will go for sure!
- Spark plug wires that drape over the exhaust headers
- All vacuum, fuel and coolant hoses need to be replaced.
- Fram PH11 oil filter. My research tells me that this is the wrong filter. I already have a couple Wix 51049 replacements on order. Also looking to get 10 quarts of high zinc non-detergent oil. I found the Valvoline racing VR1 10W-30, but it's pricey!!

I'll start tomorrow by pulling the plugs and adding the oil/penetrating lubricant as well as draining the radiator and looking at the cap, rotor and points. This should keep me busy for a few days...

[gmwillys]

You Sir are living right in regards to the seal. Like TJ said, if it were mine, it'd be slinging grease all over the place on the first drive.

Fram is always the wrong filter, no matter what the cross reference book at Big Wheel Rossi auto parts says. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdDpfb3384 ) Wix is definitely the way to go.

[bmorgil]

I'm with gmwillys, Wix is the go to filter.

[TJones]

If you have a NAPA store near you davide Wix makes most all of NAPA's filters.

[LarrBeard]

"I found the Valvoline racing VR1 10W-30, but it's pricey!!"

Yep - it's pricey. But - on the other hand it's only 5 or 6 quarts and for most of us we end up changing it every couple of years because we don't put that many miles on the Jeep. I'd run a at least one fill of every day 10W30 or just 30W through through the engine to clean it out (and a second filter as well) before you go to the long term oil/filter setup.

The oil bath filter is a bit clunky and it can get messy - but if you are going to play in the dirt it is still the best choice. It is a fail safe filter - the paper filters fail unsafe(clog up). GMWillys works with big engines that have come back from sandbox places and they show a lot of wear that would probably have been avoided with oil bath filters.

[davide]

Fram is always the wrong filter, no matter what the cross reference book at Big Wheel Rossi auto parts says. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdDpfb3384 )

This was a very funny video and it brought me right back to 1987.

TJones, I was unaware of the Napa filter being made by Wix. Thanks for that helpful tidbit. Sadly, my local Napa store packed up and moved down the road. I'm stuck with O'Reillys now.

Today brought progress as I took out the plugs. They were fouled good. I'm hoping that it was a rich mixture issue and not ring or valve blow by. Penetrating fluid was added to the cylinders.
10253

I also got the oil bath air filter off (which I am saving) and some of the smog components. Everything but the manifold air rails were removed. I know those are going to be a bear if I want to save them.
10254 10255 10256 10257

The contacts on the cap and rotor looked great and no signs of prolonged wear were present. Dwell has yet to be checked as I have not tried to turn the motor over yet.

[bmorgil]

.49 cents for a quart of Valvoline! I can barely remember that.

Your making progress davide. Plug reading takes a bit of practice. Oil fouling always gives you a big clue. Oil when compressed in the combustion chamber does not completely burn. Consequently it is pushed up and past the threads of the spark plugs. You should never see oil, or be able to wipe oil from the threads of the plug. Black burnt oil on the plug threads and plug seat in the head, are clear indicators of oil consumption in the engine. The plug threads should be clean and dry.

Yours all look pretty good for taking them out of an engine after idling or running normally. Plugs "clean" themselves off when they get hot. They get hot under load. You cannot get a good "read" on spark plugs unless you check them immediately after a full power run or a run that you are trying to "read" like cruising. In general when you simply pull a plug after an engine was running and idling, you will get a general indication of oil consumption and idling mixture which is usually a little rich. When you "read" a plug it is important to understand the conditions the engine was running under when it was shut down. The plugs will indicate the conditions in the combustion chamber the instant the motor was shut off. This is a bit more difficult than just pulling out a plug and looking at it. On a dyno or at the track, the process was to run full power and shut the motor down immediately, no idling. No matter where the car was on the track, you pulled the plugs and looked. On the dyno this is definitely easier. You run the car or motor under the condition you are trying to "read" and shut the motor down and look.

Nowadays, I still look, but the Air Fuel Ratio sensors and indicators are way better than my old eyes! Probably the smartest thing you can do if you really want to see how its running ALL the time, is to install an oxygen sensor in your exhaust and read the A/F ratio directly. Just remember burnt oil on the plug threads is a no go all the way.

[51 CJ3]

Have a look at the O’rielly filters. Especially the more expensive ones. I haven’t checked O’Rielly’s but Wix makes filters for more than just NAPA. I am thinking some Car Quest branded filters are from Wix as well.

[davide]

Bob, good call on the plugs and another educational explanation. Brought me back to my SCCA days at Sears Point and Laguna Seca.

I have been super busy on the Dauntless. The smog air rails came out much easier than expected and I have 1/2"-13 plugs ordered to replace the rails. 10300 10301
The battery tray was also removed and I am cleaning up the acid mess on the cables and hold-down.

With the smog rails off, I found the exhaust leak that was evident on the passenger side plugs. The lower header bolt on the #4 cylinder (middle) was missing. I was concerned that the bolt had snapped at some point in the past, but luckily it's just missing. Note: go back to the spark plug pic and you can see all three plugs have the ceramic burned. The exhaust manifold bolts were different on each side of the block, so I went ahead and got a new set of serrated flanged-head hex bolts for both sides. There is a Fastenal store near by and they always provide great service.

Today I finished draining the coolant. I am not a fan of flex hoses and have molded ones on order. I also saw that there is some calcium build up and would appreciate some feedback on flushing the system. 10298

I also managed to get the front axle pinion yoke off to change the seal. It was a little difficult, even with a puller, but it's off now. 10299 Do I need a slide hammer to get this off? Scratching my head on this one.

[bmorgil]

The yoke can really get stuck on there. It is a good press fit thats for sure. The amount of press is critical to the yoke working back and forth and eventually stripping out the yoke. Too loose is a bad thing. It sounds like yours is good to go! A yoke puller is the best way if you have one. They can still be tough. Here is a picture from Amazon of one. You can make one out of a solid bar threaded for a large fine thread.

10302

You could drill, screw and slide hammer the seal out. But I think you can get it out with a small chisel or tough screw driver and carefully collapse the sides inward, then pry it out. I have always done it that way. The slide hammer is technically correct however!

I see the header issue you were talking about. Good catch, nothing like a header leak to burn a valve.

[davide]

I saw that puller and thought it was the best solution, but couldn't justify the expense to the boss (aka, my wife). O'reilly had a loaner pulley puller that could be converted from three arms to two, and that is what I used. It got me super frustrated yesterday and I had to walk away. Today I gave it another shot and finally got the yoke off. I did note with an ink pen the yoke position and how many turns the nut took to remove. When I get it back together, I should be close to the same back lash.

I'll give the chisel a shot tomorrow and we'll see how it goes. Thanks for the advice.

[gmwillys]

A stubborn yoke isn't uncommon, like Bmorgil said. Applying constant pressure with the puller, walk away, then thump the sides with a hammer to shock it a bit works. Glad you won your battle with the yoke. The seal will be a breeze compared.

[bmorgil]

No need to count turns or mark the location. The yoke is not indexed on the pinion and the nut is torqued to specification. The pinion position can only change if you change the bearing or the shims under it. The pinion preload is also set by a shim pack. Therefore you only need to be sure you torque the pinion nut back to specification.

[davide]

Ah, shimmed at the opposite end! Excellent to know that, thanks Bob.

GM, you described to a tee exactly how it went down :)

One other thing I might note. I have tried to turn the motor over by hand and its barely budging. Today the oil arrives and I want to "spin" the motor as to get the oil pump gears to get oil to the top end. Can I use the crank damper nut to do this?

[bmorgil]

Yes you can spin the motor with the Crank Bolt, don't exceed the torque spec of the bolt.

You may want to prime the engine via an exposed oil port like the oil pressure sending unit. Remove the sender or tap and using a large veterinary syringe pressurize the system. Keep pushing in oil until you see oil at the push rod/rocker arms.

[TJones]

Another Great way to prime the oil gallery’s on the Buick V6’s is to remove the distributor and they’ll be a shaft with a slot in it that is driven by the distributor via the cam. That drives the oil pump, either get a old socket and drill a hole through it to put a 1/4” pin through it welded on both sides of the socket to hold it in place and hook it onto a drill and turn it clockwise until the oil pressure comes up on the gauge or use a long regular screwdriver hooked up to a drill.
Before you pull the distributor davide, pull the cap and mark where the rotor is facing so when you stuff it all back together you’ll be half fast close to having it on time to fire the old girl up.
I’d run the drill for a while if your getting decent oil pressure.
An old secret I learned from my engine builder when I raced with V6 Buicks.

[davide]

Bob and TJones, thanks for all the help/advice you have given. I would have made critical mistakes along the way without your input (and everybody else).

I've taken the last couple days off as my daughter is back for Spring break from college. I took the lower radiator hose off and have a much better view of the oil sender. From what I can see, it or the gauge hose has been leaking for years. I'll be replacing the sender but want to clean all the gunk hiding under the distributor and coil. It's an absolute mess!

It's my understanding that the oil sender KW sells is really for the 4-cylinder and that an adapter bushing is needed. If I buy theirs, they do not sell/include the adapter. I did come across another Jeep parts house that does include the adapter bushing with the sender and will probably get it there. The header and air rail bolts come in tomorrow and I will get those installed. I'll probably remove the coil and distributor too and finalize the block cleaning.

When I get her all cleaned up, I'll post some more pics.

[davide]

Today marked a little progress...I got the GL4 ordered for the transmission and t-case. I also picked up the bolts for the headers and air rails. After spending two hours battling the right bank header I realized the header could be aligned with the head much easier if I took the muffler off. Twenty minutes later I had all header and air rail bolts on the right side done. Now that I know the trick, I will tackle the left side tomorrow.

[davide]

Well, I had some time to kill before dinner and decided to do the bolts on the drivers side. All done with that now and I set the crank pulley to TDC before I take the distributor out tomorrow.

I forgot that my good friend has several Grand Nationals and told me about the same trick TJones did.

[TJones]

Davide the 225 odd fires are a different breed than the 3.8 even fires in the Grand Nationals, take your time and be patient bc they will frustrate the heck outta you.
Not real sure what Buick was thinking when they designed them :(:(
They don’t have a lot of power but the torque is crazy, it’s probably bc of the 50 or 60 lb flywheel they put in them.
Keep up the good work and she’ll be a beast!!!
Novak Adapters has a pretty good article on the odd fire V6.

[davide]

Thanks for the Novak article. I'll poke around for it later today.
I had to laugh a little when taking off the mufflers, which were your everyday turbo style of the 80's. I found myself pulling out bits of wall insulation and lots of old bird seed (shells cracked and seed eaten) on both sides. It made me reflect on a comment made in the startup post. I definitely had critters squatting in the exhaust at one time :)

[gmwillys]

Acorns make a machine gun type sound when firing up an engine for the first time of the season, especially when I had plywood stacked behind the car.

[bmorgil]

Gotta love the squirrels! I had a cat fall asleep on my intake manifold once. The fan was not kind. Hell of a wake up call when I fired it up for work.

[davide]

I got a little ahead of myself and forgot to mention that the front pinion seal is in now. Yes, it was much easier to swap those out than get the yoke off.

Here are a few pics of the header bolt swap and air rail plugs in:
10339 10340

I am now tackling the oil sender switch and have run into another small problem. I don't think that what I found was factory, but I don't know. I also discovered why there was an enormous amount of oil saturation in the area. Perhaps the best way to start to describe the issue is with a couple pictures.
10341 10342
The sending unit was threaded into the end of a brass tee. The other end of the tee was threaded into the block. On the perpendicular side of the tee was where the oil pressure gauge line connected.
When I removed the oil pressure gauge line and reduction fittings, I was able to unscrew by hand the tee with the sender still attached. It seems to me that a wrench should have been required to do this. When I look at the brass fitting coming out of the block, there only seems to be a few threads available for the tee.
Perhaps I need to clean the area around the tee better (as this is the first time I have had good access to it. Maybe once the gunk is removed, I will see more threads. What I would really like to do is remove the short male fitting in the block and replace it with one a little longer. This may give me more thread to use and create a much better seal.

Have any of you run into this??

[TJones]

If it was me davide I would plug that oil pressure line and pick another area closer to the top end to see what the oil pressure is closer to the cam and top end. Your real close to the oil pump where it’s at now, let me look on mine and see where it is on mine, I’m thinking it comes off a cam journal meaning if your getting decent oil pressure at a cam journal on the top end your definitely getting good pressure on the crankshaft end.
I’ll get a picture of mine today. There are plenty of places to hook up the oil line on the V6’s.
You must have a gauge and an “idiot light” on yours if you have an oil line and sending unit.
Personally I don’t like the electric sending units, I want to know what the oil pressure is a lot of times the oil pressure could be 15-20 lbs or even less and still make the idiot light go off, if that makes any sense, but that’s just me thinking out loud and being anal about what the motors doing and how her “blood pressure” is.

[davide]

TJones, if you have a better recommendation for the oil port, I am all ears. I looked through your album to see where it could be, but realized quickly that you have a few extra goodies hanging on the motor (and everywhere else). I enjoyed looking at all you have done.

10345

You can see that I do have the idiot lamp in the main cluster and the gauge up top. There appears to be some redundancy with the temp and fuel gauges. Both of these exist in the main cluster as well as up top. The missing gauge up top on the right is for the fuel.
I have looked through the Universal Manual at the different dash configurations and nothing matches what I have. So I am uncertain if the four gauges up top are add-ons.

[bmorgil]

The only gauge your Jeep originally came with, was the large circular Speedometer gauge cluster. All the lights and gauges are in that cluster. The other gauges on your dash appear to be from various vehicles. The "Tee" you found is in the original tap for the oil pressure. Someone added the tee to accommodate the added gauge. gmwillys will clarify if he gets a chance.

[LarrBeard]

The '48 truck has an electric gauge and the sensor has failed twice. PITA.

There I was on the way to Jeep Fest and I did a gauge scan and saw I had no oil pressure. Talk about a thrill. BUT - the engine wasn't making any strange noises - so I pulled over and sat for a bit and the gauge wavered and wandered around a bit, then settled down at 30 PSI.

Then it promptly went back to zero.

I decided that I had a sensor problem, not an oil pressure problem and I went on my way to Toledo.

You have an opportunity for a redundant installation. Find one oil gallery plug and put in an idiot light sensor and another plug to pull in a line for a mechanical gauge. The mechanical gauge tells you exactly what is happening and the idiot light acts like a Master Warning light in an airplane.

Of course you need to figure out what to put in the other gauge opening …

[51 CJ3]

I have always liked having a volt meter and an ammeter when possible.

[bmorgil]

I don't even like to get a rental car without gauges.

[davide]

Thanks guys for the replies. It all makes sense what you have said and does line up with illustrations from the Universal Manual. I have bigger fish to fry now and will have to get to all the electrical and added gauges after I get the motor finished and running. Earlier this week I did visit my buddy at the Napa store down the road. He got me hooked up with some GL4 and other things I wanted to replace in the motor. It was a nice visit and I treated him to lunch.

Today I hope to remove the male brass fitting in the block and clean more in that area. I did look for more ports on the block but didn't see any off hand, I'll keep looking. From what you guys say, they are there. The idea of keeping the switch in its original location and having a separate port for the gauge line is good. I will try to make that happen. Once this is complete, I should be able to spin the motor and check the pressure.

[test1328]

Not sure what all might have changed on the dash from 1961 to 19667, but my 61 CJ5 only has two additional gauges besides the speedometer, an oil pressure gauge and an ammeter gauge. I'm sure both of these were installed at the factory since nothing has changed on this Jeep since then. Both are located right next to each other on the lowest, left hand (drivers side) section of the dash panel. The oil pressure gauge is original and still working. The ammeter is a replacement that I remember my dad replacing sometime back in the late 70s. There are no gauges on the upper center dash location like you show in your photo, Davide, so I would have to guess that they were all add-ons.

[TJones]

Davide I did look at my oil pressure line and it comes from the passenger side up front right behind the timing cover like yours. I did call Chris at Pro Car that built the motor and he did say he had it on the back of the motor on the top rear in a cam journal but decided to put it back up front bc he put a high volume pump on the motor and changed the springs in it. My motor has 90 lbs of oil pressure when you start it up and he wanted to keep an eye on it closer to the pump bc he was afraid that with that much oil pressure if I didn't let it warm up before throttling it up it could start blowing seals and gaskets out.
Here is a picture of where mine is now and Yours.

1034810349

It looks like your dash has a temp gauge, amp/volt gauge, and a oil pressure gauge added up top and possibly an empty hole for a once added fuel gauge. Maybe nothing in the speedo cluster works, I think Larrbeard found a guy to rebuild the gauges fairly reasonable and does good work if that be the case.

[davide]

TJones, thanks for taking the time to check your location and calling the builder to get further information. 90 PSI seems insane and I'm curious to know more about the high-performance add-ons you did. Sounds (and looks) like a beast!

Today we dropped my daughter back off at the airport and I got back to work on the Hot Mess. I wanted better access by the aera of the oil pressure port and ended taking off the alternator bracket. Most of my time was spent cleaning, ugh! Here are some pics of the before and after of that and a close up of the brass insert. It almost looks to me like the threads got stripped, trying to get it to seal.
10359 10360 10361

It's tight on the backside of the block, but I'll take a small mirror and try to locate the cam journal port.

[TJones]

Yes davide your adapter does look like it’s shot as far as sealing. I’d get a new adapter, thread tape it good and try that hole again.
Yes 90 is insane for sure, it is a beast both bmorgil and gmwillys drove it around in Toledo 2 years ago at the Jeep Fest when we all met up. I didn’t do a hell of a lot just bored it .060 over put a cam in it and added a Holley Sniper EFI and like I said put a high volume oil pump and high pressure spring in it with a remote filter up on the firewall but it does run pretty good.
Plus mine is a 252 Buick V6 that came from the factory with a 4 bbl carb.

[bmorgil]

It is truly a handful! You definitely need to get used to it. A lot of power in a very small and light package.

[TJones]

Davide you won’t be able to see the oil gallery’s that I referred to earlier unless the engine is out and the bell housing is off the motor, I’ve attached 2 pictures of where they are located. The 2 you can hook onto are 1/4” plugs next to the cam journal and you need to drill a 1/2” hole on the one with the yellow circle to get the oil line out of the bell housing to the gauge.

1036310364

[davide]

And that's exactly what I saw, the bell housing blocking access to the cam :(

These were all great ideas that you had, but I will head out to my local Home Depot and grab the same male adapter, only it will be a little longer. Enough to get me a great seal on both ends. I liked that thought of having the gauge line closer to the top end, but I should be fine with it going to the tee.

I tracked the sender and as of yesterday it was in St. Louis headed this way. I'll take this time to clean up the thermostat housing and battery tray. Another trip to Costco for a group 24 battery while I'm at it.

[TJones]

You should be fine with what you’re doing davide.
The sending unit will tell you if the cluster in the speedo is working the way it should and the mechanical will tell the truth.
Your doing it right, keep up the good work and keep us posted!!!

[davide]

I received the sender today and hoped to get everything installed with a slightly longer nipple. Unfortunately, I discovered the 1.5 inch nipple I got made it impossible to get the tee on without removing the right motor mount. I am contemplating getting a 3 to 4 inch nipple which will clear the mount or take the mount out in order to install the shorter more compact nipple. The engineer in me struggles with this (less is more). I'll chew on it and figure it out tomorrow.

[LarrBeard]

"The engineer in me struggles with this"

There are times we need to tell the engineer in our soul to sit back and ask Bubba how he would do it.

"Hey y'all, lookie here".

That corner is so tight that there is just not a whole lot of room to do much. Instead of trying to work a fitting in there, put a line in the oil pressure port. Run the line to a convenient place (or just hide it somewhere) and put the tee fitting there. One side of the tee gets the sensor; the other gets the pressure line to the mechanical gauge. Make up a bracket or just tie-wrap the line.

[davide]

Well LarrBeard, you win :) The other engineer in me says work smart, not hard.

I picked up a 3" and 4" nipple. Turns out the 3 inch nipple will work just fine and gives me plenty of extra room by the motor mount. These pics are just a dry fit. I would like to route the oil gauge line between the head and the alternator bracket, but there may be too much heat there. I'll probably route it as shown with the pic including the alternator bracket.

10366 10367

[LarrBeard]

Now that you have that rock out of your sock - on to bigger and better things to do!

[davide]

I am always thinking several steps ahead of the particular task I am working on. That said, I will most likely have the oil sender and line finished this weekend and move on to spinning the oil pump shaft under the distributor. After getting the top end with some oil, I will start making final preparations to firing up the Dauntless.

This brings me to fuel. Bob, I read what you wrote in the Tech Library regarding this. Do you guys know if Buick hardened the valve seats? While I have a small amount of lead additive and access to ethanal-free gas, I really want to be able to pull up to a pump and top her off.

Thanks for your thoughts

[gmwillys]

Passenger car engines built previous to 1975, it is recommended to add lead additive to the fuel unless the head(s) have been reworked with either stainless steel valves or hardened valve seats. Your Buick didn't originally have hardened seats, unless it was a later model engine installed.

[bmorgil]

Industrial engines and truck motors etc., sometimes had the seats hardened way back in time. As gm has said however, passenger car engines not until the mid 70's. By 1986 fuel was completely lead free. The effect of the lack of lead in the fuel is most pronounced in hard working engines. I have had the opportunity to see quite a few engines that suffered from exhaust valve seat recession. Early attempts to stop it with valve rotators and the like, helped. The harder an engine is working, the more the effect will be. I have seen engines come apart with relatively low mileage, no hardened seats and have exhaust valve recession. I have also seen high mileage with little to no effect. It truly depends on how much load, RPM and time spent under load. There was still some lead in the fuel, gradually phasing it out by 1985 or so. Engines built prior to the mid 70's without hardened seats started showing up with recession in the late 80's, as lead was completely phased out by 1985 - 87. I saw first hand more than one cylinder head with the exhaust valves sunk in so far the engine would no longer run.

I wouldn't sweat this too much. If you are not sure if you have hardened exhaust seats, an occasional tank of no-lead wont hurt. A can of top end lube in the fuel once and a while will do just fine, unless you are towing a lot or running at full load for extended periods. The ethanol in the fuel is more destructive to parts that are incompatible, like pre-80's fuel lines.

The only way to know if someone has installed hardened seats or, if the seats were originally induction hardened, is a visual inspection. Did you have a valve job done on this engine? if so the machinist would know.

[51 CJ3]

The following link is for information to run unleaded fuel in piston engine aircraft but everything concerning fuel for an older engine is directly related: https://www.autofuelstc.com/approved_engines_airfames.phtml

I run unleaded in a 1942 Continental engine. I run 4-5 gallons of 100 low lead aviation fuel for for every 20 or so mogas. That’s probably more lead than needed but cylinders run about $1,000 used and are getting harder to find (no one is making new OEM cylinders) so I figure it is cheap insurance. I have seen the valve recession mentioned on the website. I have sent off 2 for repairs and neither could be repaired. I run my jeep about the same way. I wouldn’t waste my time or money on store bought additives when I can get what I need from a pump.

[bmorgil]

An airplane engine defines hard working all the time! That is a great example of where exhaust valve recession would definitely occur in the absence of a hardened valve seat or, valve seat lubricant. In extended high load automotive engines without protection, you can expect the same thing.

[davide]

You guys always give me a lot to think about and have been an immense help in my restoration efforts!

I finished the oil sender/gauge line. The 3" nipple worked out great and Bubba would be pleased I kept it simple. I add the 10W30 VR1 oil and spun up the shaft under the distributor to get the upper end lubricated and see if the dash gauge works. I don't really know how long it will take to get the oil circulated to the top end, but the oil gauge took little time to register ~25 PSI. I am calling this a major victory.

10381 10380

[davide]

Happy Easter all!

Since getting the oil sender and gauge line finished, I have been putting things back together. The distributor is back in. New thermostat, upper radiator hose, bypass and heater hoses are in. The lower radiator hose has not arrive yet. All fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump are new as well as fuel filter and line leading to the carburetor. A new ignition switch is in as my Dad lost the original key. The battery cables were removed and cleaned of grease and acid corrosion.

I have removed the battery tray and it is not in the greatest of shape. Acid has chewed through some of the metal and the left support strut is completely gone. I called KW parts as they don't list a replacement. They and other Jeep parts vendors don't seem to have a replacement for the early CJ-5's. I'll do my best to clean it up, but are there any suggestions or workarounds?

I also noticed something unusual when I bumped into the brake pedal. I saw fluid coming from the top of the master cylinder cap. Everything is new on the brake system so I'm guessing I over-filled the reservoir. As I bled the master and wheel cylinders, I'm a bit concerned about this.

Sorry, one more thing. I bought a new push-in breather cap for the valve cover. The original grommet was very hard, deteriorating and broken in places. The cap I got had a grommet on it, but it was too small for the valve cover. Again, I looked in KW parts and did not see it listed. A few Google searches didn't turn up much either. Can someone point me in a direction here?

Thanks all! Save some ham slices for sandwiches tomorrow :)

[56willys]

Not sure what your plans are but just an idea for the battery tray if you wanted to get all new. We did his on our 49 F1. If you can get an old bedframe or other angle iron. Cut it up with 45 degree angles at the corners. Weld it into a rectangle so that the bat. fits inside (like how the mattress would have). Then attach some all thread vertically coming above the bat. with a steel bar horizontal across the battery. With some wingnuts on the all thread. You can then make whatever pipe or angle iron go off the bottom to the frame. It won't be concourse original but will hold the battery just fine. Being set inside the angle iron there's no way it will slide out.

[davide]

Thanks 56willys for the suggestion. I did see a U-tube video on this and fully understand what you are saying. The Hot Mess is certainly no concourse vehicle, so that is a non-issue. Getting angle iron at my local hardware store is a non-issue. The fact that I don't have (or have access to) a welder is the issue. On top of that, I have never welded a thing in my life. I suppose making a battery tray would be a great first project. In the interim, I will clean it as best I can and bolt it back up.

I measured the valve cover hole and it is 1.25 inches and ordered a grommet with that outer diameter and the 1 inch inner diameter I need. It should get here around the same time as the lower radiator hose.

Later today, I'll probably take a better look at what's going on with the master cylinder...

[gmwillys]

A source for a battery tray is as follows;

https://www.thejeepsterman.com/products/220-replacement-battery-tray-1967-1986-cj-series-jeepster-commando/

It isn't an exact fit, but it will work with only slight modifications. The most issue you will have is that you may have to drill some mount holes. The firewalls didn't change from '52 till the '80s, so the battery tray will work.

[davide]

Thanks gmwillys for the feedback. KW parts has this one (which looks identical to me, although the part numbers are different) https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/battery-tray-in-black-fits-76-86-cj/

A buyer noted this on the product, "Just installed this on a 1966 CJ5. Had to relocate the tab that has the two mounting holes to the firewall. All other mountings same."

With my tray missing one of the diaginal brackets and the other looking like a previous weld job is close to breaking off, I'll order a tray. Even if I clean mine up, you can see it has limited time left.

10426 10427

[gmwillys]

The KW battery tray will work well as well. I agree on the thought of replacing the battery tray. After years of supporting a battery, then being subjected to battery acid, means that any repairs are difficult due to the metal being thinner.

[bmorgil]

On mine I ended up cutting the top tray of of the old one and splicing a new top on from KW. I could not find one that was exact on the lower portion. I cut the new one to fit the old support. Of course you will need to get someone to weld it up for you. If you can find someone with a portable MIG Welder, they can fix you right up.

[davide]

I've been busy with life the past couple of weeks, but got a chance today to look at the new battery tray and figure out how to modify it to work. It actually looks fairly straight forward. The diagonal support bars that mount to the top of the firewall align perfect, nothing required there. The lower bracket mounting holes of the tray are off ever so slightly. I penciled in crosshairs to give some perspective.
10486 10487
One could elongate the bracket holes towards the edges, but I don't feel that gives enough of the mounting bracket to securely hold the battery. It seems that if the bracket were about an inch longer width-wise, you could drill holes to the existing holes on the firewall. I'm going to get a rectangular piece of metal, the same height and thickness and add an inch to each side. This should be approx. 2"x6" and find my local welder to attach it.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I was also looking to replace the rotted tube grommet on the valve cover and replace it with a push-in crank breather. Turns out there is already a breather there and I have ordered a 1.25" push-in oil filler cap.
In the process of taking that grommet out, I noticed the bottom of it (the end inside the valve cover) had a chunk missing. I was afraid this dropped into the valve train and I wanted to remove it. I took the valve cover off and no chunk was found. I'm guessing it fell off years ago and has been slowly deteriorating to where it no longer exists.
So now I'm off to my next question...Any suggestions on how to clean the top of the head where the gasket sits. Yes, I have wire wheels and roloc disks, but I don't want to have that debris get in the valve train area.
10488 10489

[gmwillys]

Davide,

The chunk of the gromet is most likely residing with the sludge in the bottom of the oil pan.

The sealing surface for the valve cover can be cleaned up with a piece of Scotch Brite. A few swipes, and all the gunk will be removed. You can lay a rag down to catch any chunks that may get close to falling down into the head. You don't want the surface to be perfectly smooth, a little grit will actually help the gasket to seal.

[LarrBeard]

" ...Yes, I have wire wheels and roloc disks .."

I concur with GMWillys - you're overthinking this. Scotchbrite, a putty knife; something like that is plenty. Just pack some shop rags around things to catch the crud as it comes off..

[davide]

Thanks guys! I appreciate you reminding me about this.
I'm an engineer. I always overthink these things :confused:

[gmwillys]

Just remember, simple machines most often require simple solutions.

[davide]

Things have been at a grinding halt for the past three weeks... One of my hobbies is to fly big RC planes. They are incredibly fun as well as incredibly dangerous. I fell into the dangerous camp a few weeks back. After starting my engine and walking to the back of the plane, my left hand and fingers decided to cross the path of a high spinning propeller. A trip to the ER and 22 stitches later, I'm lucky to have my fingers in tact.

I am still not able to do much with my left hand while it heals, but I did get a few things done before the incident. I cleaned up the heads where the valve cover sits and got a hold of a friend with a welder. I feel the head is clean enough. There looks to be natural pitting in the cast and what little gunk is left in those pits should not pose a sealing issue with the new gaskets (so I'm assuming). I plan on applying a thin coat of Permatex Aviation form-a-gasket to the new cork gaskets. Thoughts on this? yeah/neigh?
10598 10599

I'm hoping the battery mod gets done in the next week.

[51 CJ3]

Sorry to hear about your mishap. Those composite blades can be like razors. Wood not much better. I have been out of the hobby quite a while but I seem to recall the motors turning around 10,000 rpm at power. I think one racer I knew claimed 14,000 on his little 2-stroke glow engine. Nobody could catch him. A lot of us opted for the sound of 4-strokes. Only giant scale fliers were using gasoline back then. I still have most of the stuff. Probably need new radios to pick it up again.

[davide]

I appreciate the thought. It's my own fault. Got too comfortable and didn't respect the running motor as I should have. It happened on a 60 series U-Can-Do SF running an OS .91 4-stroke. I found a great retired engineer who makes his own remote glow driver. I've bought two as this happened when I went to remove my ignitor. One for this plane and the other for a Super Chipmunk running the same size motor. I'm the new poster child for our club on what not to do. I don't mind as we have a lot of kids that need to learn from someone else on the safety needed in this sport.

That aside, what do you think on the valve covers???

[bmorgil]

davide, this is how we learn! Your experience will prove the point to those who are smart enough to advance from your unfortunate event. I am positive you wont let it happen again! I have a few "examples" I have used along the way. Comments to others like "you see this scar?" Or, "one day I just wasn't careful enough with, and ......."

I am just not a fan of a lot of goop on anything. It usually makes things leak. It is best used in an area where leaking is already prevalent for reasons a gasket cant cover. Like a damaged area on the sealing surface or parting lines. Silicone's and the like can cause the gasket to slip. They can also cause the gasket to not perform as designed. Some stuff gets a sealant. The service manual or the gasket manufacturer will tell you if the gasket needs goop. Most modern gaskets have something on or in them. On valve covers, the practice for covers that will be removed periodically to check valves, a little goop is helpful. Here use a "Permatex High Tack" or something similar lightly on the cover surface only. Since you are reusing the gasket, this will keep the gasket stuck to the cover and make it much easier to pull and replace for valve adjustments. You want a good clean flat surface on the head. The condition of the cover (good flange no bent in bolt holes) will determine if it leaks.

On a valve cover that is not coming off again (hydraulic lifters) clean everywhere.

[LarrBeard]

Here was a post from Ira while he was building his M38A, Magoo.....

He lost a fight with a small grinder.

I really miss that old coot.

[gmwillys]

The forum isn't the same without Ira giving updates, and telling stories of his adventures.

[bmorgil]

New stories and new adventures like davide's will keep us going!

[davide]

Oh, I missed all of this while taking some time to heal...
Today I finally decided enough was enough. My fingers aren't really healed, but that's why nitrile gloves are made. So I got back at it and started cleaning the valve covers. I'll cover that a little later because I have an adventure story to tell.

I have done the Rubicon trail before and last week was no exception. What I didn't know about my timing was that the annual Jeep Jamboree was going on during my trip. I got to witness it finally and greeted all 180+ of them as they passed on by. It was mostly all new models with the latest bells and whistles bolted on, but there were some old Willys there too! I took a lot of pictures and a few videos, mostly of the Willys and some early AMC CJ's. I'll most likely create an album and link it to my profile unless there is another spot you would like it to go. Did any of you go??

[davide]

Hey, I just noticed a Willys Gallery and I am the only one with pics in it (thanks whoever did that). I'll upload a bunch more throughout my project and add a new gallery with the Jamboree pics.

[bmorgil]

Great to hear you are on the mend davide! The Rubicon is an awesome run. I was deeply involved in vehicles that ran the Rubicon when I lived in Sacramento. Quite a ride up through there. I cant wait to see those pictures.

The Gallery is a little clunky to use but, there are a few Member Albums out there. To see a Members Album you have to go to their profile. For someone to see your pictures they would click on your name in a post, from there click profile, and then under Albums click more. https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/album.php?u=9534

The Ladies who run the forum were working on this. It going to be fixed someday!

[51 CJ3]

I lived in Marysville for many years and had no idea I was that close to the trail until after I sold my ‘69 Bronco and was down to a small 2wd pickup and a street bike.

[bmorgil]

Very beautiful around there Jeff. You would have had to drag me away.

[davide]

It's funny that we have a bunch of ex-Cali guys here. I lived most of my life in San Jose. Got tired of the craziness there and moved the family to Washington 12 years ago. We're looking to move again as the craziness from Seattle is making it's way towards us.

I have most of the Rubicon pics off my phone and into a folder to upload from my laptop. I'll let you know when they are in the gallery. I'm also gathering my pics from the 2021 trip I did and will post those too.

In the meantime, I have my bracket clamped on the new battery tray and found another friend who has a welder to help me out. The first one I had lined up sold his house and has moved away.
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It also turns out that he has a sand blaster and I am thinking about cleaning up the valve covers. Someone painted them black and I would like to have them the Buick blue they originally were. Hopefully, I can get this done over the weekend...
10660

[bmorgil]

I spent 8 years long ago living in the Bay Area, San Diego and Sacramento. I love all the states in America. We all have our favorites. It is a shame when crazies and the cost of living drive you away. I have a favorite spot all over this country!

Battery tray is looking right. Those valve covers are in good shape. They should turn out good.

[davide]

The weekend was very productive. My friend welded on the battery tray bracket and let me use his sand blaster kit. Here is the end result of what I got accomplished...
10690 10691 10692
I'll put the final touches on the battery tray tomorrow and bolt her up as well as get the first coats of primer on the valve covers.

[bmorgil]

Definitely going to do the job on the battery box. Those valve covers are going to turn out well. They don't make them out of heavy gauge steel like that anymore.

[davide]

While I'm waiting for the paint to dry, I decided to circle back to the brake fluid coming out of the single reservoir master cylinder vented cap. It still happens when I press on the pedal, but I don't know why. Did I overfill the reservoir? Do I find a non-vented cap?

My Universal Service Manual doesn't even mention the single reservoir MC. I have searched through this and other Jeep blogs, but can't find anything that is specific for this cylinder. I even looked at all the Q&A's on the KW Store. The only thing mentioned was that a vented cap is fine. I hope so, as I bought the MC new from them (which included the vented cap) :)

[bmorgil]

As you watch that paint dry, I am thinking you may have overfilled the Master. The original cap is a cast iron thing with a vent. In the military Jeep the cap vent was threaded for the water fording hose if used.

[davide]

Thanks for the feedback Bob. I double checked the fluid level and it doesn't appear to be overfilled. That may be ambiguous as there is no spec on how many ounces of fluid to use. I couldn't find one and KW guys said they filled the reservoir close to the top. They were also unaware of a volume spec or markings in the cast to specify a fill level.

They recommend I bleed the brakes again as I may still have air in the line somewhere. So I'll do that...

[bmorgil]

Buried deep in the manual there is a note in the rebuild section.

"Fill to the level of 1/2" below the top of the fill hole".

If you go much higher it will come out the top, especially on a hot day. With no vent the brakes would begin to apply.

[davide]

Nice catch on that! I'll look at mine and see if it is in that section too. I didn't bother to go over the rebuild section as I put a new MC in. It will be nice to let others be aware of that.

Here is the finished battery tray. 10725

BTW, I have been trying to upload Rubicon pictures to the gallery. I initially loaded 5 pics and it seemed as if they were accepted and then they mysteriously disappeared. Poof! Then I tried again and noticed the chronological order I wanted them in was reversed. I would have to essentially put them in last to first. I even tried moving the uploaded pics in the gallery, but the tool didn't let me do that. Being able to drag a pic to the order I want would be a nice enhancement.

[davide]

The paint job turned out really nice!
10729 10730

[bmorgil]

Just like brand new! I thought those would turn out nice. You had a great starting part.

[davide]

I am back from my last Summer vacation. I picked up a group 24F battery and am now ready to begin the engine start-up process. Cranking over the engine for the first time was a success. The alternator and oil pressure light were lit on the speedo assembly and the headlights worked. After a few seconds of cranking the engine over, the oil light went out and the oil pressure gauge climbed to about 20 PSI. So far, so good...
I filled the tank with 5 gallons of gas and was now hoping to see fuel work its way up through the fuel filter. I cranked the engine over and over. At most, 5 seconds at a time, but I did not see fuel getting to the filter. I even disconnected the fuel line leading to the carburetor, thinking the float may be stuck closed and creating a block for fuel to flow.
My belief at this time is that fuel pump is bad (rotted diaphragm) after sitting idle for so many years. I will remove the inlet line to the pump, just to make sure fuel can get to it, but know that it can as I replaced all the line from the tank to the pump. You don't know what you don't know until you verify...
If you all have some other thoughts or tests I should do before picking up the pump, please chime in.

[gmwillys]

As long as you are getting fuel to the fuel pump, then you are correct in your thoughts on the fuel pump. If you are not getting fuel to the pump, then you might want to take some compressed air and blow back through the line to ensure the fuel line doesn't have a bbee or other insect not stuck in it. If you hear air bubbling in the fuel tank, then you still don't have fuel flowing to the fuel pump connection, then apply air pressure to the fuel tank inlet, (not a lot of air, roughly 15 psi or so). Then see what you have flowing. Also look at the fuel cap to ensure that it is vented enough to allow air in to let the fuel to flow. A quick check is to remove the cap and see if the fuel starts to flow. If all checks out, then the fuel pump is the only culprit remaining.

[bmorgil]

I would say it is pretty common for a fuel pump to go bad when sitting a long time. The diaphragms and valves dry out and fail. Check the oil and make sure it isn't leaking fuel past the diaphragms into your oil. I think gm has you on the path to checking your pump.

[davide]

Thanks guys for the additional tests. I didn't think about the situation of the line being blocked or the vented cap not venting. What concerns me the most is the possibility of fuel getting into the engine oil. Say bye-bye to the new, expensive Valvoline.

While I am still going to check the flow to the fuel pump, I have already ordered a new one. It will arrive at the parts store this afternoon.

[LarrBeard]

".. Say bye-bye to the new, expensive Valvoline.

VR-1? It's expensive, probably an overkill - but the camshafts, lifters and other parts and pieces really like the zinc rich oils.

[test1328]

I agree with all that's been said regarding the fuel pump. I did all of what you describe when I was trying to get my CJ5 restarted after 40 years. I went through everything and found no fuel flowing to the carb. I replaced the fuel pump and it started right up. I would guess it will be the same for you once you change the pump.

[bmorgil]

Priming the carb via the bowl vent is a good way to avoid excessive cranking. Put a few oz of fuel down the vent, pump it a few times and it should fire right up. If there is no fuel supply it will run out shortly and stall. If the fuel pump is up to snuff, it should keep on ticking.

[davide]

Well guys, I have fantastic news....

Today I tried all the above tests. I took the inlet fuel line off the pump and there was nothing. I then took an air hose to it and could hear the bubbling in the tank. So now I replace the pump. 20 minutes later, I crank her over and BINGO, fuel flowing nicely through the filter. BTW, I had intentionally loosen the compression inlet to the carb to create an easier flow.
10795

With all the excitement of all this, I put the spark plugs in, wires on, lower radiator hose and radiator fill. I pumped the gas pedal a couple times, turned the ignition switch and was met with a health roar!! A small, but monumental victory. I turned the engine off immediately as the t-case is off and the transmission is dry. I want to run the engine longer, but am unsure if I can do this. Can I fill the T86A with GL-4 and run the engine for a short period (30 seconds) without it flinging through the output shaft?
10796

So after two years of toiling around, I am back at the initial reason the Jeep sat idle in Dad's garage for so long. The rebuilt t-case has to go in...

[bmorgil]

I don't think so, you may not want to do that. If the transfer case is not on the back of the trans (T84 or T90), the lube will definitely come out the back. There is a transfer hole for lube as well as the output is not sealed. As it spins it will lift the lube to the transfer hole and it will pour out. The transfer case is kind of the rear cover for the transmission. Patience, put the transfer case on! You would hate to burn the bushings in the transmission or gall the bearings. You heard it run, your on your way now. If something is amiss, the transmission and transfer case are easier to pull hooked together as one.
https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2513-T90-Transmission-and-Dana-18-Transfer-case-Lube-Levels


Make sure you have the back of the engine supported. Without the transfer case/cross member and mount, the only thing holding the back of the motor are the front mounts. If they flex enough they can break and/or allow the engine to tilt back and strike the firewall.

[davide]

Thanks Bob. I do recall reading the datasheet you attached and had an idea of what the answer was going to be, but thought I'd ask. Your comment about patience is spot on and I will start to secure the rear engine and remove the T86A. This is almost how I found the Jeep before towing it home. My Dad had removed the t-case and rear mount beam. He had wood blocks under the tranny, keeping it and the engine supported. I put the rear beam and mount in before bringing the Hot Mess home.

I have a little bit of work to complete on the t-case first. Recall in my initial posts, I was attempting to get matched speedo gears. Santa did get me those gears (once they were off back order) and I have yet to put them in. I did a dry fit and found that they were correct. I also noticed that the drive gear was a little loose on the t-case output shaft and the driven gear spun intermittently.
In another post, I read were a little JB Weld was used to secure the drive gear to the shaft. This is something I am thinking about doing.

[bmorgil]

Don't do that either davide. Hahaha, your going to think I am nagging you! The speedometer gear is a slip fit on the output shaft. When installing the yoke it will press up against the gear and hold it very nicely. It is sandwiched if you will, between the yoke and the output bearing inner race. It is designed that way so the gear ratios can be changed without complete disassembly. If you glue it on, that wont be the case.

[davide]

No Bob, you are not nagging at all! I completely appreciate your expertise and have learned so much from you (and everyone else). You explain with great detail on why things should be done a particular way and have kept me from making some big mistakes. I'll have the t-case button up and ready to mate with the tranny tomorrow or Tuesday. With the tranny out, I'm assuming I can fire up the engine again!? Yeah, patience isn't my strongest trait :D

[gmwillys]

I'd wait until everything is back in place. The probability of the clutch disk moving is very slight, but without the input shaft to support, and keeping everything lined up would be a concern of mine. We are looking for steps forward, and no back pedaling to repair things that could have been avoided. We all get it, it is hard to wait till everything is perfect before going to the next step, but it pays dividends in the grand scheme of things.

[bmorgil]

Hahahaha! I have heard many people ask me "where were you when God passed out the patience?" Same answer every time, "I stepped out of line because I couldn't wait!"

Something about hearing them run is irresistible. I think you would get away with firing it up but as gm is saying if for some reason the clutch disc moves a little, the trans will give you fits going back in.

[davide]

I was a little over optimistic about having the tranny out and bolted up to the t-case by today. The t-case needed a little TLC. The speedo gear set was loaded in cosmoline and needed to be cleaned up. I also removed all the backlash shims on the output shaft housing and cleaned them up. Six in all, various thicknesses. I'll give them a light coat of spray-tack and get the housing all bolted up.

In the meantime today, I revisited the brakes. Even though I bled them way back when putting the master and wheel cylinders on, I still get a pop-up fountain of brake fluid from the master when pressing on the pedal. From what I have been told and have read, this usually means not all the air is out of the system. I went ahead and re-bled all wheels (twice), but still have the fluid fountain. One thing I did notice when bleeding today, the fluid was on the dirty side. Sediment still in the steel lines? Everything else is new. So I am stumped on this. What am I missing?
I also noticed that the brake lights don't work. If I short the wires together on the switch, the lights work. I'll just get a new switch and re-bleed again.

[gmwillys]

As long as you are not getting air bubbles in the fountain, all is good. The fountain means that you are moving fluid back into the reservoir as when the pedal is released. You are correct with your troubleshooting process on the brake light switch. Unfortunately, you'll have to readdress the bleeding process yet another time, although usually you don't have too much air to get in when changing. Brake fluid will pick up any contaminates within the system, even the new components, you'll have a change in the clarity of the brake fluid to a more amber color.

[bmorgil]

davide, when you press on the pedal does it slowly go to the floor as the fluid squirts out the cap or, does it squirt a bit and stop with a solid pedal?

[davide]

The pedal has a solid stop and is not squishy. That's the good news, but when normal pressure is applied, the fountain will pop up past the top of the master. I'd estimate a good 1.5 inches above the fluid level. When light pressure is initially applied, there is little to no fluid rise. I am so tempted to find a non-vented cap or plug this one.

On the switch, I did not look at the condition of the contacts and will probably do that today. I'll clean them up and apply a dab of dielectric grease. My local parts store has the switch in stock, so I have a good backup plan in place.

[bmorgil]

If the fluid is moving that much in the master it has a leak internally, or the valving is bad or installed incorrectly. The cap is vented on all master cylinders to allow for the changes in atmospheric pressure. If they weren't an atmospheric pressure rise in the cylinder (cold to hot), or brake fluid expansion from heat, would begin to apply the brakes.

Something is wrong in your brake system. I would suspect the master cylinder has an internal leak.

[davide]

This morning I picked up the brake light switch and headed back home to call KW parts and discuss the master cylinder situation. Mike picked up the phone and we talked for a bit. He got a good idea of what I was describing and asked if I had checked the free pedal travel. I thought "Hmm" to myself and told him I had not, but knew what he was talking about. I told him I would verify it was in spec and get back should it be ok.
So I got back at it...the initial free travel seemed to be good. I'm guessing 1/2" free play, but I saw that the rod assembly was covered in 56 years of muck. A little disappointed in myself for not cleaning it up when I was replacing everything, I removed the adjustment rod assembly. It is now completely cleaned up and reinstalled with really no change to the free play adjustment. At the same time, I put the new brake light switch in.
Of course I have to re-bleed all lines again and check for my fountain pop-up. I did press down on the pedal and did see air bubbles now in the master. This time, I will continue to bleed until all cylinders have nice clear fluid. This way, there is absolutely nothing more to be done and start to concentrate on the possibility of a bad master.

[bmorgil]

Upon application of pressure on the brake pedal there will be a small amount of fluid movement in the reservoir. If there is a fountain of fluid whenever there is pressure on the pedal, there is an internal leak in the master cylinder.

If you are having trouble with air, did you thoroughly bench bleed the master before it was installed? If you did a good job on the bench bleed and air keeps getting introduced to the system, there is a leak somewhere.

[davide]

I did not bench bleed the master before installing it, I did that after mounting it to the frame. After hooking up the single steel line and filling the reservoir with fluid, I then cracked the steel line while applying pressure on the pedal. This should have done the same as a bench bleed.

Last night I bled the wheels again and am still seeing the fountain pop-up. I understand that I should see fluid movement, but that only happens when soft, subtle pressure is applied to the pedal. I can redo the master bleed again as described above as I did not do this after changing out the stop light switch.

KW parts insists I am over filling the reservoir, but is sending me another.

[bmorgil]

There should not be a "fountain" or stream of fluid squirting out of the reservoir when pressure is on the pedal on any master cylinder.

When you "Bench Bleed" the master, you should run a line from the port directly up and back into the reservoir. As you stroke the piston, the fluid will be sucked back and forth thoroughly saturating the valves and purging all the air from them. This process is important. If you don't bench bleed there is a good chance you will pump a great deal of air into the system because the valves are not properly primed. You must be sure all the air is cleared from the piston before you hook it up.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/07/10/video-bench-bleed-brake-master-cylinder/

Do you have a single or dual master cylinder?

[davide]

Hi Bob. It is a single cylinder master, which bolts to the frame under the driver-side feet. When discussing how I bled the system to KW, they said that no bench bleed was required on this particular master and normal bleeding of the wheel cylinders would also bleed the master. He even discouraged me from bleeding the master via the single exit compression line.

There has to be something else going on as the new brake light switch is inop. The brake pedal does feel spongy after my last bleed and I'll go back and do it again to see if anything changes.

In the meantime, I got my high-tack adhesive in the mail today and will get the t-case finished. With any luck, I'll also get the engine supported and ready to remove the tranny.

[bmorgil]

Davide, you always bench bleed a master cylinder regardless of how many ports it has. Cracking a line does not do the same thing. You need the cycling of fluid back and forth, and a full stroke of the piston to clear the valving and end of the piston bore from air. The pedal does not stroke the master cylinder far enough. You may never get all the air out any other way. It sounds like Mike may have misunderstood. I am not sure which Mike you spoke to but, I will try to give them a call and clarify.

I don't know how to make this any clearer, if the fluid is squirting out of the master cylinder when there is pressure on the pedal the master cylinder is leaking internally. It is allowing pressure through the valving to return to the reservoir. This can't happen or there will be little to no brake pressure. This may not allow enough pressure to activate the the brake light switch and/or, there could be air trapped at the brake light switch.

[LarrBeard]

Well, you learn something every day if you look and listen. I'd not heard of bench bleeding a master cylinder before. Thanks Doc Dana.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil on the bench bleeding. It is a necessary step that should always be performed before the installation of the master cylinder. As a clarification of the fountain of fluid, are you seeing it when the pedal is pressed or when you release the brakes? As Bmorgil said, the fountain is definitely a bad cylinder due to internal piston leakage if it happens when depressing the pedal.

[davide]

Master cylinder update...
The bench bleed is complete as well as all the wheel cylinders again. The fountain is even grander now. Imagine standing in front of the Bellagio in Vegas.
10808

[bmorgil]

Davide, when you were bench bleeding did it settle down and stop squirting? You bench bleed until the fountain goes away. When you were done bench bleeding there should have been no fountains when done, just like the video. You need to take some photos of this. We must not be communicating something. As you are pushing on the pedal you have a fountain? There should be a corresponding drop in the pedal. As the fountain squirts, the pedal should drop. If the pedal is slowly dropping as the pedal is depressed and a fountain is appearing, you still have a leak in the valve. If the pedal is slowly dropping there will be less brake pressure. Whenever you apply pressure to a master cylinder piston and the air is out of a sealed system, if the pedal slowly drops the master cylinder is leaking internally.

Make sure you aren't mistaking air for fluid. Notice in the video while he is bleeding the master, it looks like a fountain till the air is gone. Use the plugged port method he demonstrates. Plug the port and apply pressure until there are no bubbles. If it squirts a fountain when you are pushing on the piston with the air out and the piston slowly sinks in, the piston is leaking. If this is the new Master, it could be two bad ones in a row. To test a Master Cylinder you apply pressure with the port blocked. The piston should not move once the air is out if the port is blocked.

[davide]

Hi Bob. I used the return tube method to bleed and the fluid did settle down when pushing the rod in after a couple times. I continued to give a few more pushes. At this point there was no air in the master and I was not getting the fountain effect. I reconnected the brake line and bled all wheel cylinders in order of longest fluid run to shortest (RR, LR, RF, LF). A few bubbles were pushed out and the fluid was clean from all wheel cylinders.

My master never ran out of fluid during the process and is topped to 5/8" from the bottom of the cap threads. This is still the original master from KW and I expect to see the replacement this week. Labor Day may add a few extra shipping days too.

The Website does not appear to accept video clips, but I was able to get a screenshot from a video. Note that the fountain has shot over the visible area and is at least an inch higher. Very little pressure was applied from my hand to create this stream and it is without a doubt all fluid. Foot pressure would have been much worse.
10809

[gmwillys]

I would stop at this point and await the arrival of your replacement master cylinder. You are currently seeing a tear in the piston or an imperfection in the casting on the master cylinder bore, allowing pressurized fluid to come out the inlet of the reservoir.

[bmorgil]

Great photo! Nice fountain. Bad master cylinder.

gm is all over it. Wait for the new master.

[davide]

Agreed GM. I think we have kicked this dead horse enough.

[LarrBeard]

Hmmm, reminds me of changing grandson's diaper. (I had all daughters.)

But the good news is that you know a lot more about master cylinders than any of us ever wanted to know..

Such is the way of Old Jeeps.

Thanks for educating us.

[davide]

Hmmm, reminds me of changing grandson's diaper. (I had all daughters.)

I'm usually quick with humor, but missed this one at first read. Absolutely hysterical!! I had a son and a daughter, so I can relate.

The new master came in today and I will get on it this weekend. In the meantime, I worked on the t-case. It had a lot of rust all around the housing and I managed to remove most of it with a wire wheel. I'd like to remove the remainder with a sandblaster and throw some paint on it. I will have to cover all exposed areas so the sand won't get in it, but if anyone has a thought to achieve the same thing without the risk of sand getting inside, please advise.
10810
There is also this plastic plug on side which I have yet to figure out.
10811

[TJones]

That is for a ball that screws into the threaded hole that your clutch arm pivots on I believe, but the Masters will get on and verify for sure!!!

[gmwillys]

My far and away most favorite method of removing rust and old paint from any metal surface is the nylon abrasive brushes that Horrible Freight sells. I use them on all hard surfaces, and they work fantastic. They will remove any amount of paint and even body filler without damaging the surface of the metal. The brushes are cheap, and last a long time compared to steel wire brushes, plus you do not get impaled by wires when using. All you need is a 3/8" variable speed drill and some time.


https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-80-grit-nylon-abrasive-wheel-with-14-in-shank-60325.html

I personally am not a fan of sand blasting due to the mess, and the adverse effects it has on the metal. Depending on the media used, the metal can be peened and distorted with the heat created during the shot beating on the metal. The brushes do not heat the metal, so you do not have to worry about metal distortion. The mess is created is just the paint or rust being turned to dust. Paint prep is also a breeze. After you blow off the surface with compressed air, and clean the surface with a prep-sol, you can immediately use an epoxy primer to seal the surface to prevent flash rusting.

[test1328]

Davide, I'm working on a CJ5 myself and have encountered similar problems/questions. Rather than try to get every last bit of rust off of any component, I use the Harbor Freight abrasive brushes to get most everything off, much like your TC that you show. Then, since I'm going to paint it anyways, I use a rust converting product that converts the rust and acts as a primer for painting. I use a product called Corroseal from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Corroseal-Water-Based-Converter-Primer-82331/dp/B001CRETZW/ref=sr_1_3_pp?hvadid=664253661973&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9028731&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=6133224441846397584&hvtargid=kwd-10002192415&hydadcr=17081_13574607&keywords=corroseal&qid=1694464771&sr=8-3&th=1

It seems expensive, but a little bit goes a long ways. I just brush it on and by the next day, you're ready to paint and no worries about rust continuing. And, you don't have to sand blast anything. It works for me.

[davide]

Thanks all for the feedback!

I'll be offline for a bit while I am out of state dealing with my Dad's failing health.

[gmwillys]

Best wishes and prayers to your Father from all of us here.

[davide]

I figured it was time to get back to the group after dealing with my Dad. Long story short, I helped my Dad out as best I could. I got him into assisted living and started getting his house cleaned up. His health seemed to be improving until he had a stroke and eventually ended up in hospice care. Not longer after that, he did pass. I was there with him for most of the time and up until the end. I wanted to thank all of you for your well wishes and prayers.

I did manage to get a couple things done the short times I was back home. A brief outline for now and I will go into much more detail (with pics) later.

KW did send me a new master cylinder (thanks guys) and I did install it. At the same time, I did discover why I was seeing so much fluid coming from the vent hole in the cap (details later). Everything was bled and I was not seeing fluid exit the cap vent. However, my new brake light switch wasn't activating the brake lights. I removed the switch and tested it. I connected a multimeter to the posts and inserted a wooden dowel to press on the inner switch (which is activated by the pressure of the brake fluid). I got nothing on the DMM, not continuity, no resistance.

I took the switch to the parts store and we tested the other switches they had in stock and found that they all functioned the same way (no continuity, no resistance). I had a hard time believing that they could all be defective. I contacted the manufacturer (Standard) and asked their testing group what the PSI requirement was. They did get back to me and said it was ~60 PSI. I haven't done anything since then, as I am just now getting back to be able to, but I was curious about any ones thoughts on this.

I also finished cleaning up the t-case and got a good coat of primer on it.

The polar vortex we all had this past week has kept me indoor, but I should be able to continue later this week with where I left off. I still have to deal with my Dad's property and probate, but I have most of the ball rolling on that for the time being. I look forward to chatting with you all again!!

[gmwillys]

David,

We are glad to have you back, but our prayers are with you and your family.

[bmorgil]

Glad you are back David! I think your attempt at activating the switch might be your issue. It is a very small passage that opens to the diaphragm to activate the switch. Here is a link that may shed a "little light" on the switch. You might do better rigging up an air fitting and giving it some air pressure to test it.

https://www.sw-em.com/hydraulic%20brake%20light%20switches%20notes.htm

Man it is Cold here!

[gmwillys]

Bmorgil, great find on the brake light switch breakdown. I was trying to think of how to explain the way it's supposed to work, but was drawing a blank.

[TJones]

Welcome back David and so sorry to hear about your father:(:(
I know exactly what your talking about cleaning out the house, we just moved my In-Laws into a Independent Living Facility in Hudson and we’re in the midst of cleaning out their accumulated Junk of 65 years together and being 85 and 92 it is a battle to say the least!!!
Folks that lived through the Great Depression Do Not Get Rid of ANYTHING!!!!! :confused::confused:

Right On gm about Bmorgils switch illustration, never knew exactly how they worked but now I do!!!

[test1328]

I had to jump in here to comment since I guess there are a lot of us in this same boat! I spent last year, from April through October going through my parents house that they had occupied for over 60 years after moving them out to a senior apartment complex near my home. TJ is right, they never threw much out. My Dad was especially bad, so going through his garage took forever, it seemed. However, I did find some items for my 61 CJ5 that he had stashed away that will come in handy during my rebuild. Because of my efforts to clear my folks' place out, my work on my Jeep sort of ground to a halt. However, I'm getting things going once again and hope to be posting on my progress soon.

By the way, Davide, I love seeing and reading your posts. Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.

[LarrBeard]

One of the great things about this forum is that we can wander all over the place with comments and discussions as long as we stay out of politics, culture and stuff like that - just so there is something "Jeep" somewhere in the thread. Glad to have you back and yep - it's dern cold here in NE Windiana

[bmorgil]

Lovin' all this talk about parents leaving their Sh$# behind! Hahahaha! Guaranteed it is going to happen. and just to make this legitimate for LarrBeard.... Jeep!

[56willys]

Welcome back David!

So sorry to hear about you Dad. Hope you and your family are okay.

Glad to hear your back to working on the CJ! Looking forward to more updates!!

[LarrBeard]

"... just to make this legitimate...'

I remember the days when Ira would talk about guns, dogs, radios, hurricanes and gas thieves - and on occasion - Viet Nam.. We manage to entertain ourselves nicely.

[gmwillys]

I miss Ira.

Since my folks are still able to, they are slowly selling off their hoards of too much to mention items. They might as well enjoy the money they make and have a good time doing what they want while they still can.

[bmorgil]

Well we did get off track. Good deviation from the grind there. I do enjoy these "wanders"! It is the things our elders leave us, that brings us so much to do.

David, get us back on track how's that project update coming?

[davide]

I'm so sorry I went awol on you all. It was not intentional. I do enjoy hearing of others situations, even if it doesn't directly apply to our Jeep's. Keeping things human is a good thing and, for me, therapeutic. I've not only been overwhelmed with the probate process the state of CA puts folks through, but I have been working on an engineering project that is (hopefully) wrapped up. If you ever hear me say I will work pro-bono on another engineering project again, please knock some sense into me!!

So back to the brake light switch...Bob, that Volvo write up was great and right up my ally, electrical engineering. I was aware of how the switch worked from a mechanical aspect, but found the failure analysis part of it interesting. I was shocked to see that enough current could be generated from the worn contact to actually melt the plastic switch housing.

I wanted to show you how I went about testing the new switch and still feel that it is defective. I performed the test two different ways. The first was using a punch with a diameter nearly as close as the switches fluid opening. When pressing the punch inward, I could feel the tension of the spring plate and the contact being made on the inner terminals. With my DMM showing an electrical open (both continuity and ohm), I depressed the punch. I could feel the contact being made inside the switch, but the DMM showed no continuity or registered any resistance (ohms).
I then took an air blow gun (with a rubber tip) and set the pressure regulator to 60 psi. Same result as with the punch. I increased the compressor regulator to 100 psi. Still nothing.

I have yet to get back to the manufacturer (Standard) with my test data. Maybe it will mean something to them, maybe it won't. I will head to Napa tomorrow as they have one in stock (from Echlin) and will let me test it first.
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[bmorgil]

Always good to have you back David! It definitely looks like the switch is bad. All the importing that is going on now, you don't know where things are coming from or what their quality will be. Our import laws do little. Some boxes and/or products are unmarked as to where they are coming from. "Made in USA" may or may not mean "Made in USA". It could mean a few things. It isn't all China anymore. Some really poor quality coming in from India and other third world areas. If you have ever seen some of the "re-manufacturing" videos from around the globe, it's terrifying!

[davide]

I'm striking out on every switch I test. The probability of all these switches being defective is next to zero and I have to assume that my testing methods are inadequate. I have reached out to the manufacturer with my test procedures and look forward to what they say. I will pass along anything I find out. I can only conclude that a fluid pressure test is required....

I still owe an update on a couple other things and will take some more pictures to help tell those tales.

[51 CJ3]

Just a thought… I have had batteries go bad in multimeters. The results can be rather interesting and unpredictable. The first one showed 250v on a nail in the siding of my house. It turned out the nail wasn’t touching a wire at all. Not even close. I have also had some failed continuity checks that were fine with a fresh battery.

[davide]

Hi Jeff. I appreciate the suggestion and will double check.

[davide]

I'm going to turn the clock back for a bit and get back to the master cylinder. Yes, we're going to kick this dead horse some more...

Recall that KW sent me a new master to put in. I put it in a couple months back and now I don't have fluid shooting out of my cap like I did previously. Well, I know why it was happening.

When I took the suspect MC out, I found a shiny disk in the reservoir and thought it was some internal backing plate to a piston. It ended up being the "fountain diverter" on the backside of the MC cap. Without it, the fountain of fluid had a direct path to the vent hole in the cap.

Now I know everyone is saying that a huge fountain is not supposed to pop up when the pedal is applied. I'm starting to think that maybe it does on this style, hence the "diverter".
I bench bled this newest MC on my bench, after bolting it to the frame and as part of bleeding all wheel cylinders again. With the MC cap off, I still have a fountain when pressing on the pedal, but the "diverter" keeps the fluid in now.

Now that I have to bleed it all over again after removing the brake light switch, I'm going to use a new compressor assist bleed tool, I just got from Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09PYBGVSQ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details).

With "diverter" out
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With "diverter" in
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[davide]

And while I'm turning the wayback machine on, I also brought up cleaning the rust off my t-case so I could get some primer on it.

I did end up using my sand blaster to get the nooks and crannies clean, but I sealed it up very well beforehand and also kept clear of those sealed areas. It actually turned out really nice and I got some primer on it before the weather went into the negatives.

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[56willys]

To add to 51 cj3s theory. A while back my multimeter was screwing up. On continuity test it would constantly beep weather there was continuity or not. Every other function worked fine. The problem was one of the fuses inside blew. Somehow only affecting the cont. testing circuit.
A cheap fuse at the hardware store had me back up and running. Not saying you have a tool problem, just sharing whatever info I have.

Also, the switch on my jeep. (I reused the one I had, now I'm glad I did) I tested it by pushing a dowel into it. With rounded end so not to damage the seal. And just gently applied pressure and that was enough to make it work.

That t case is looking great! Also glad you finally got that master cylinder issue figured out. One mistory solved!

[gmwillys]

If LarrBeard wasn't sitting on a beach in Florida, he would chime in about the greatness of the Simpson Volt/Ohm meter, (probably the best meter ever made). Fluke are good, but LarrBeard has proven time and time again how good the old meters really are.

[bmorgil]

If LarrBeard wasn't sitting on a beach in Florida, he would chime in about the greatness of the Simpson Volt/Ohm meter, (probably the best meter ever made). Fluke are good, but LarrBeard has proven time and time again how good the old meters really are.

You bet on the Simpson Multi Meters gm! I have two vintage Simpson 250's. One I inherited from my Dad, and one I was able to restore I bought off the internet. They are the most rugged analog meters you will find since the 1950's. They are still available new! The 250 is now the 260 but just as solid. They are very expensive new. I like my Fluke, but most of the time I grab the Vintage Simpson.

https://simpsonelectric.com/products/test-equipment/vom-multimeters/260-8-260-8p/

[davide]

I believe I've seen a Simpson in my Dad's garage. My next trip to CA, I will check it out.

I showed a picture of the t-case as that is one of the last things to put back. I don't know if I should remove the T86A and re-install as a unit or just bolt up the t-case to the already mounted transmission. I think the Univ. Manual says to bolt them together and install, but is that necessary?

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[bmorgil]

You can really do it any way you want David. I strongly prefer assembling the trans and transfer case together, and bolting them to the cross member. Then lift the whole assembly up into place. I find it Much easier that way. It is also the best way to take them out. Since your trans is already in, no need to pull it out.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil on the installation of the transmission and transfer case as a unit, but since you are already halfway done, just roll with it and install the transfer case as she sits.

[LarrBeard]

OK - enough about the Old Guy and his Simpson 260 .. (grin)

Seriously - around an Old Jeep that is electrically very noisy, a digital multimeter (like my Fluke 77) goes crazy because of the ignition and regulator noise. Sometimes old vehicles need old tools to work with.

You can spend about $500 on a new Simpson 260 Series 8. It is just about as fool proof as any meter ever made - about all you can do to damage it is drop it off a tall ladder or let batteries rot in it.

[bmorgil]

There is the endorsement from LarrBeard! OK David, next time your in CA if you see a Simpson 250 or 260, don't let it out of your sight!

The 250 I restored had batteries rotted terribly. I was still able to save it. It has a few cracks that epoxied up but it is working nicely for a 1960 model. The one I have from my dad is a 1963 rare 250 model. It has a sensitive movement for transistor circuits. When I was very young and learning..... I dropped it more than once, blew the protective fuse more than once and in general abused it. My dad used it on radio gear. He just kept soldering in new fuses. It just keeps on working. My son just blew the fuse in it.


I have solved the sideways picture debacle. It is a camera thing. With my camera held vertical, the photos post sideways no matter how I save them. With the camera horizontal, the photos are straight but upside down if my camera button is on the left. With my camera horizontal and the button on the right.... voila.... it worked!

[davide]

OK, I'm putting the camera theory to the test now....

I tend to agree with you guys that the transmission and the t-case should go in together. I especially like the suggestion of bolting up the crossmember and mount at the same time and jacking it all up together. I also see some pros to this approach too. When bolted together, I can more easily get the t-case main shaft gear on. Otherwise, I'd be crawling under the Hot Mess to attach it.

So I went ahead and started by removing the transmission shifter/fork rail cover. I see four bolts that attach the transmission to an adapter plate which attaches to the bell housing. I'm assuming that I can remove the four bolts that affix the transmission to the adapter plate. BUT, before I do any of this, I will get a jack stand and wood block to keep the bell housing in place.

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I am also wondering if any of you can direct me to obtaining the floor panel nuts with retainer clip in them. I am missing a few and don't want to use a generic extruded u-nut in its place. I didn't get my thread gauge out, but the square nut looks 1/4"x20. Maybe called a "caged nut"? OK, never mind, I see them now at KW parts

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[LarrBeard]

You always find things like that at the last place you look...

[gmwillys]

Another option would be to put in nutserts;

https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-professional-rivet-nut-setter-kit-58078.html

The nutserts work pretty well, and you don't have to cut a square hole that you would with the caged nut.

[bmorgil]

David, does Hot Mess have a fresh clutch in her? You are all the way there for a new clutch and a flywheel resurface. If you are sure the clutch is good, no big deal. You would hate to get it back together however, and have a bad clutch. If you support the engine under the oil pan, you can remove the bell housing and clutch pressure plate and take a look.