61 CJ5 Resto Restart Info

[test1328]

Thanks for the reply bmorgil! Of course I found that thread on the tool in the Tech notes after I posted. I'll have to try to put something together like you suggest.

[test1328]

Another quick question on the Dana 25 front diff:
I noticed, while cleaning up the outside of the differential housing, that the threaded holes for the carrier bolts are drilled through the housing. I would suppose that the upper holes are above the oil level but I would imagine that the lower holes are below the oil level. I also read in the Tech Library about the proper torque level for these bolts (45-50 ft. lb.) and it says don't use any oil or sealant. So, my question is, after I torque down these carrier bolts, should I add any sealant to the outside hole to help seal in the oil? Maybe that isn't necessary? Thanks!

[bmorgil]

Nice catch test1328! I just went back and clarified that in the Tech Section.

The cap bolts go through the housing on the model 25, they need sealant. Make sure it is a non hardening.

[test1328]

Well, back to the drawing board...

Tried to install the inner oil seals in the Dana 25 this weekend. I thought of putting my own tool together to do this but after pricing out the washers, threaded rod, etc. needed to do the job, I figured I'd be money and time ahead by purchasing one of the systems off of Amazon as shown below in bmorgil's post. Well, that didn't work out too well. I had a very hard time getting them started straight and each time I thought they were going in and then started pressing them in, I found that they pulled to one side and went in crooked. I ended up ruining both seals that I had. So, I guess I'll start over and try again.

I ordered more seals today, two of the newer style and two of the NOS older style. I'm curious to see what the diameter of each style measures to see if there is any difference. This is a case where 0.001 in. could make all the difference, I think.

By the way, does anyone have an opinion on whether the new style seal (with rubber) or the old style seal (leather?) is better?

My intention is to use whichever seal seems to fit better. I'm also going to try to drive the seal in through the axle tube instead of trying to press it in with the tool.

[test1328]

On a separate note, I've been cleaning the frame and axle tubes and anything and everything I encounter during this work and cleaning it up, removing all grease, dirt, etc. Once clean, I'm using those Harbor Freight Nylon brush wheels to remove what rust I can (mostly light surface rust). Then I'm using a product called Corroseal that converts any rust and primes the metal. Then I''m spray painting everything. The Corroseal works quite well and even though it is expensive, a little goes a long way. I would imagine that the gallon jug I bought will do this entire Jeep.

But, the significant thing I recently found was the actual serial number stamped into the frame on top of the passenger side rail, just in front of where the body tub rests. So, I now have definitive proof that the body and frame have matching numbers. Cool!

[LarrBeard]

"By the way, does anyone have an opinion on whether the new style seal (with rubber) or the old style seal (leather?) is better?"

Opinions are like armpits around here - every one has a couple and some of them ...

When I put the truck back together, I put leather seals in the rear axles. Both failed within a couple of months and made a mess in the brakes.

When we pulled the leather seals out, the "old guy" who was helping me said;" Heck, these are Chicago Leather seals. They went out of business about 1960, no wonder they were dried out".

He may or may not have been right, but I would suggest the modern seals over the older leather. If the leather are "NOS" seals, they may be at the end of their shelf life. O-rings have shelf life dates on them even if they are hermetically packed in dessicated foil envelopes.

My free opinon and worth everything you pay for it.

Great work!

[bmorgil]

Definitely use the new technology. There really isn't any comparison. The modern seals are way better. As Larry is eluding to, always try to stick to new sealed up inventory if you can.

Great news on the serial number. I am going to check out that rust converter.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys, for your opinions. I'd rather rely on people who have direct knowledge of the job and the parts that I'm talking about than rely on my own bias. Thanks, Larbeard! Your experience with such a seal failing early on your truck warns me of just what I was worried about. The new rubber seals that I messed up do seem to fit quite nicely on the axle shafts, so I know that part is good. I suspect that they are a bit larger in diameter than the old style which is why I had such a time with getting them in the first go around. I suppose my measurements will tell the tale.

In trying to figure out a better way to press these seals in, I tried fitting a socket into the seal. I did find one that had the right OD, but then the ID of the socket hit portions of the rubber seal and made me worry about damaging that rubber as I put it in. However, I did happen to come up with a Schedule 40 PVC pipe that I had on hand that fits almost perfectly. The OD of the PVC fits inside the seal and the ID is large enough that it doesn't touch the rubber portion of the seal. I figure I'll put that in the seal, place a seal driver on that, and then tap the seal into place through the axle tubes. Hopefully that works better than the first method. If it works, I'll provide the size of PVC pipe on here so others might benefit from that suggestion.

[test1328]

bmorgil, that Corroseal rust converter is really pretty neat stuff. I investigated a whole bunch of different ones before I chose this. In its liquid state, it appears to be an off-white, milky white, color. When you put it on the metal, when it converts the rust, it turns it black. Areas that aren't rusted it gives it just a shade of black, but you can see through it to the metal below. So, it still primes the metal, but doesn't obviously do any converting of rust. It seems to be pretty tenacious since any drops that end up on the floor or workbench are pretty difficult to remove. It definitely doesn't like to come off of clothes. With a nice chip and impact resistant paint over the top, I figure the metal should withstand quite a bit, at least for a while until it gets beat up again.

[bmorgil]

I figure I'll put that in the seal, place a seal driver on that, and then tap the seal into place through the axle tubes. Hopefully that works better than the first method. If it works, I'll provide the size of PVC pipe on here so others might benefit from that suggestion.

Dont try to drive the seal in from the axle tube.

Driving the seal in through the axle tube without damaging the seal guide pressed into the tube is nearly impossible. That is why the tool is used. There is a seal guide in the axle tube next to the carrier bearings, that guides the splines of the axle over the lip of the seal without cutting it. It has an opening sized to let the shaft through without cutting the seal. The seal guide cannot be purchased separately. If you damage it, it will not function properly. If the axle splines drag across the seal when installed, it will cut the seal lip and it will leak. A big issue in warranty, hence the seal guide.

[test1328]

OK. Understood, bmorgil! You're right, of course. I'll try to make the tool work and get the seals in the right way. I did notice that one of the seal guides was a bit banged up on the bottom of the ID. Perhaps from someone trying to do what I suggested long ago? I smoothed it out a bit with the Dremel just to take any sharp edges off. Both guides are in decent shape, though and still tight.

[test1328]

More questions for you!

I've started putting the pinion in and have to ask if anyone has a trick on holding the pinion in order to tighten the nut and set the bearings?
What is the proper torque level for the pinion nut? I've heard 100 ft-lbs and then the manual talks about 200-220 ft-lbs? Of course, when the manual mentions 200-225 ft-lb, that is on the rear Dana 44 and not the 25.
What is the proper gear oil to use in the front diff? Should I lube the bearings with this oil before I set the bearings?

Thanks for the help.

[bmorgil]

That will work. It is important to apply sufficient torque to compress the shim pack. The nut can take a lot of torque. Get it up over 200# and it is fine on the 25 and the 44.

I use a yoke holding tool similar to this. https://www.freedomracing.com/6719b-differential-pinion-yoke-holder-6719a.html . You can use a long piece of steel strap and drill holes in it to match the yoke. https://www.amazon.com/6883-Holding-Lincoln-Mercury-Applications/dp/B0872J58NV

[test1328]

Thank you. Any comment on lubing the bearings before I start or not? I suppose it doesn't matter too much. Also, any comment on the gear oil? I suppose 90W or thereabouts GL-5 would be best, but I'm not positive.

[bmorgil]

Always put some gear oil on the bearings first. For lube any good brand GL5 hypoid axle lube will get the job done. A 75w-90 will do fine.

[test1328]

Awesome. Thanks. The 75W-90 is exactly what I bought yesterday.

[test1328]

Question on the front springs that I'm dealing with now. I took the passenger side front spring off and measured it for arch. Based on some dimensions I found for new springs, it appears that my springs have lost about an inch of arch. I'm thinking about getting them re-arched by a local shop, but I haven't found out how much that will cost me yet. However, when looking over the other components, I have found that the front shackle plates, which are of this style https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/leaf-spring-shackle-kit-fits-52-71-cj-3b-5-m38a1-non-greasable/ are fairly worn on the sides where they are bolted to the spring bracket where they obviously rotate, creating the wear. So, I need to replace these shackles. My question is on whether you think it is worthwhile to go with a greasable shackle kit or stick with the original style as shown in the link? Anyone have any experience with the greasable shackles? Not sure if it will make much difference. It certainly won't help prevent the wear on the side shackle plates when they rotate like the old plates were worn. Any ideas on how I could prevent that type of wear? Maybe a poly washer?

[bmorgil]

Usually in the long run, you will be better off with new springs. By the time you replace the bushings, straps and insulators and pay for the re-arch, you could have bought a new set with new steel. Re-arched springs usually don't hold their shape for long with any kind of loading, regardless of whether they are cold or hot re-formed. Back in the day it was a quick fix for a sagging car that needed to be sold.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil. Re-arched springs are a quick, get it down the lot fix. The first off road adventure or a few months of on road travels would put you back to where you were. It is worth the money to invest in a new set.
The non greased front shackles do alright, bit sounds like your bushing is not centered in the spring for it to be rubbing the side brackets. If your spring bushings are loose in the spring eye, the bushings can walk out. I tend to like the M38A1 style of grease able shackles that also have a link bracket connecting the open end. You get the serviceability of the grease able shackles with the added strength of the tie bar.

[test1328]

Thanks for the advice on re-arching the springs! I appreciate it. Looks like I'll be buying some new springs! Speaking of new springs, what is your opinion on potentially buying springs that would provide a slight lift, say 2" or so? What kind of problems do you think I might encounter? I've always been a bit leering of lifting vehicles due to the potential problems, such as driveshaft angles.

As for the shackles, the bushings are not loose in the spring eyes. They are poly bushings but do not extend past the spring eye itself, so I suspect the shackle plate and spring were rubbing on one another. Here's are a couple of photos of what they looked like prior to disassembly.

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10407

[bmorgil]

By poly bushings do you mean they are not the original black rubber? If not someone has put in some aftermarket bushings. In any case I think gm has you going in the right direction. Something isn't right.

Lifting a CJ always creates terrible driveshaft-u-joint operating angles. There are some things to keep in mind when lifting.

Keep the u-joint operating angles equal to one another.
Keep the operating angles as low as possible (drop the transfer case if needed). https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2206-CJ-rear-drivesahft-bind-after-lifting-or-new-springs
Make sure the u-joints will rotate completely around without contact at the yoke ears with the axles hanging at full extension. (THIS MUST NOT HAPPEN).

There are a few things that can be done to help with a lifted CJ. A good subject for a long dissertation on the Theory of Non-Uniform Velocity.

[test1328]

You are correct. The original black rubber is not there. I know my Dad redid the springs at one time, so I imagine he put these poly bushings in there. I'll try to take a picture of the bushing and the worn shackle plates when I get a chance.

Yeah, you've convinced me that I shouldn't lift this Jeep. I don't need other, unnecessary issues to deal with! I will go ahead with gm's advice and go with the M38A1 heavy duty greaseable shackles. That makes a lot of sense.

[test1328]

Another question on the rotational torque of the pinion after I have installed it. I put it in with the original shim pack thickness and torqued the nut to 100 ft. lbs. I know this isn't the final torque as we talked about previously. However, at 100 ft. lbs, the rotational torque is basically zero. My understanding is that the rotational torque should be somewhere between 10 and 20 in. lbs. Is this correct? If it is and I'm at zero, does that mean I need to remove a shim to increase the rotational torque? Or...do I need to torque this nut to 200 ft. lbs and then check the rotational torque?

Thanks for all the help. I feel like I'm asking a bunch of dumb questions but hope you don't mind.

[bmorgil]

If you have 100# on it and there is no rotational torque, you are correct that you should have some at this point. I would remove some shims and try again. Go slowly on the nut torque, use the old nut. As you are torquing the nut keep checking the torque to rotate. As soon as you start to get the yoke pulled in you should feel it start to get tighter. The torque to rotate will get close to maximum quickly and then the last torque of the nut to spec, needs to bring it in to, or keep it in specification.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2308-Pinion-shimming/page2

[test1328]

Thanks, bmorgil! I knew I had read that on pinion shimming previously, but couldn't find it when I needed to.

[test1328]

A bit of info on the Dana 25 inner oil seals that I asked about a while back. I'm offering this only as a point of information that might help others at some point. I ordered samples of the new style seal and of the NOS original style seal from Kaiser Willys. And then I measured the OD of each. The OD of the original NOS seal measured between 1.9995 and 2.0005. I thought this tight tolerance was pretty amazing. I ordered two and they both measured almost identically. Granted, this measurement was done with a caliper, but it was the best I had. The new style seal's OD measured 2.0140 to 2.0165. A lot more variation in diameter and quite a bit of interference, assuming the seal recess in the diff housing is supposed to be nominally 2.0 in. Not sure if the new style is supposed to have this much interference or not. I've let Mike at Kaiser Willys know but haven't heard back from him on it. By the way, the description on their website says that the both should be 2.00 in. in diameter.

[bmorgil]

You have to go at it a little differently. Seal manufacturers use and change materials and designs from time to time. It is possible the seal dimensions are not the same due to different press requirements.

The only way to be positive is to measure the I.D. of the bore the seal is to be installed in. I do not remember or have access to the nominal on the tube, I bet it is 2" but ya never know. Call or look up the manufacturers specs on the seal. They should have information available on the bore range dimensions the seal will work with. It is very possible the seals have been cross referenced incorrectly and the part number is wrong, or sometime in the past the seals went through a "Re-Box" program. A .015" press fit is a bit much. It is difficult to get real close with a caliper on a seal. They conform to the bore they are pressed in. They aren't necessarily perfectly round with a precision exterior finish.

[test1328]

Unfortunately, there is no manufacturer or any identifying number on these seals. They are not shipped in a box but in a plastic bag that is used for packing slips on boxes, so there is nothing to go on as far as who manufactured these seals. All I have is the part number that Kaiser Willys uses when you order them. So... there is no way to track down the manufacturers specs on this seal, unfortunately.

[test1328]

Here are a few pictures of the front leaf spring eyes with the poly bushing and the worn spring shackles. There was just a steel sleeve that fit into the poly bushing and that the bolt went through the sleeve. There was nothing between the steel spring eye and the shackle plates. Seems pretty obvious that they were grinding on each other and wore the plates down. In the last photo, you can see that the metal sleeve and bolt are still attached to the shackle plate. I could not remove them, rusted together. I'd like to figure out how to prevent this in the future.

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[test1328]

With regard to the differences in the two different inner oil seals, I received this response from Kaiser Willys today:

The “larger” seal is an open seal, so as you tap it in place the open end will then crush down some once it gets the proper seal.

I believe that A776 is a double sided seal so there isn’t any flex.

I have the A779 seals in my CJ 2A

That is all that was said. FYI, the A776 is the NOS original design seal while the A779 is the new style seal. So, maybe I didn't really destroy the seal when I put it in and it crushed down. Didn't seem right to me, though. I'm just sharing this in case someone else get to wondering about this as well.

[gmwillys]

The poly bushing is allowing the sleeve to "float" in the bushing. More than likely, yours has been rubbing for long before the poly bushings were drove in. I like the greaseable M38A1 front shackles that have a threaded bushing and rubber seals to keep out garbage. If you go this route, antisieze is your friend for installation of the threaded bushings for future removal.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/diagram/front-spring-52-71-m38a1/
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/leaf-spring-shackle-kit-heavy-duty-fits-52-66-m38a1-greasable/

[test1328]

Just a progress report. I got the Dana 25 put back together. Rotational torque on the pinion ended up at 20 in. lbs. Backlash and runout were good, within specs. I expected this since I didn't take the carrier bearings off, reused the bearings and races. Got the pinion seal in. Of course, all of this was done after removing all dirt/grease, applying the Corroseal rust converter/primer, and painting. I'm happy with the result. Here are a few pics.

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Also, thought I would add a pic of the frame serial number stamping that matches the ID plate on the firewall. I colored over the stamping so it would be easier to read.
10449

[test1328]

After almost 16 months, I'm supposed to go pick up my rebuilt engine this week. It has been extremely slow and frustrating. I truly believe the guy doing the work is the right guy for the job, but I'm sure my engine took a back seat to others. For an estimated completion duration of 6-8 week to turn into 16 months, something was going on. I'm just hoping it comes out as good as possible. I'll post pics once I get it. I'm pretty excited to see it. Should have all new parts that I supplied already installs, like the clutch, ring gear, and oil filter hoses.

[LarrBeard]

It looks like what a Dana 25 should look like ... NICE!

"6-8 week to turn into 16 months"

And the engine job .. "COVID"

[test1328]

Thanks, Larry. Yeah, the COVID thing was definitely a factor. Not being able to get parts when he needed them was a common theme when I talked to him.

[LarrBeard]

We know where to find most parts, but rebuilders have their own preferred sources and many times their preferred sources for small block Chevy parts come up as a blank when we ask them to find a set of +0.010 main bearings for a 1947 Willys L-134.

Say Whaaaat???

If a builder will accept it, it is quicker if we provide them with a major overhaul kit from KWAS and just let them find the odd-parts.

But, too soon we get old -- too late we get smatrt.

[test1328]

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. I offered to get whatever parts he needed for him or at least tell him where he could find them, but he didn't want my help. And, as you say, I think his normal sources weren't much help.

Oh well, I wasn't in a hurry anyways!

[gmwillys]

The rebuilders prefer that they order the parts for a couple of reasons;

1) They know what they are getting, (if a bearing or component fails, it is their reputation that is on the line, and they do not make money on rework).

2) They can mark up the parts from their supplier pricing, so they can make a bit more on the job.

Parts shortages are the name of the game these days. A lot of our production parts are long lead time pieces. We are still suffering the effects of Covid, and will continue to for the foreseeable future. We were considered essential workers, but our suppliers were not.

[bmorgil]

The supply situation is hit and miss for sure. We have been waiting months for parts for a performance engine build on a Bronco. Everything seems to be on a build it when they order it system. So when you order, your in line.

[51 CJ3]

It doesn’t help that no one seems to be stocking parts anymore. Parts stores can’t afford to sit on inventory that does not move so they order it when you ask for it. I love my local NAPA but I usually have to pick up my parts a day or two after I decide I need them. Occasionally I have to drive to another town or pay shipping because the part isn’t in the warehouse. The latest example for me was the transfer case shift rail seal I needed. 25 miles to the next NAPA.

I generally start shopping the internet after learning something isn’t available locally. Buying from the internet doesn’t help my local economy and it needs all the help it can get.

[LarrBeard]

"I generally start shopping the internet after learning something isn’t available locally."

A typical example: I needed some pieces and parts from my local Fastenal. They were not in stock locally, so I asked what would be the lead time to get them. The local store said "a week to ten days, depending on when we have enough to justify an order to our regional warehouse". I decided "… Thanks, but no thanks".

I went to Fastenal on the internet and found the parts I needed. They were in stock at the site I found, so I ordered them from that particular location (Indianapolis). I ordered them about noon on a Tuesday and they were on the doorstep Thursday afternoon – a lot quicker that a week or ten days. The shipping was about what I would have spent on 2 gallons of gas to wander all over town and back.

I would have loved to buy locally, but when it isn’t there, ya’ gotta’ do what ya’ gotta’ do.

[test1328]

Been a long time since I last was on here. I've been doing a few things here and there, but it's been quite slow on the progress. A couple things to mention to catch up.

1. Finally got the engine back from the builder. Looks good, all cleaned up and ready to roll. Included the new clutch and new ring gear on the flywheel. Still working on the front end and want to get that done before I proceed with putting the engine in.
2. Been spending my time on the drivers side front springs. When I went to remove the spring, I found that the bolt holding the spring in the shackle was rusted so bad that I could not remove it from the spring eye. Therefore, I had to cut the bolt off to get the spring off. After that, I found that the shackle on the rear of the front spring was worn significantly and too much (in my opinion) to keep using. Therefore, I needed to remove it. As you know, they are riveted to the frame. Mine are also welded to the frame. So, I had to cut that shackle off, which was a chore in itself. However, I did get it off and then ordered a new one to install. I finally got it installed and bolted on, but I wanted to weld it on as well since these do take a lot of abuse when off-road. I'm not a welder, but have a friend! He finally was able to come over and we got it welded to the frame, just like the original. Here are a few pics of the old shackle showing the wear:

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11230

3. While my friend was over, he also helped me use the oxy/acetylene torch to heat my passenger side front bumper up and get it bent back as close to straight as possible. We could have taken more pains to make it "perfect" but I decided that I didn't need perfect and having it corrected was sufficient for my needs.

So, now, I just need to get the spring back on and then I can finish up the front end with new shocks, new king pin bearings, get the axles in, close up the front diff, and get the brakes back on. I also need to get the steering box and links installed as well as the master cylinder. Lots to do yet as I work my way backwards on this vehicle.

[gmwillys]

It's good to see you making forward progress. You made a good call in changing out the perches. When in doubt, change it out is a good practice especially when you plan to work your Jeep.

[bmorgil]

It is moving along! Its a regular Genesis Project putting these things back together. You are going to love wheeling around in something you brought back.

[test1328]

Finally got the front knuckles installed and got the drivers side spindle, brake plate and brakes installed. See pics below.

11318

11319

One question I have is on the brake adjustment. I know the shoes are supposed to be adjusted using the eccentric. What I'm not seeing in the manual is exactly how to adjust the brakes? Does anyone have a reference or can you tell me how they are supposed to be adjusted correctly? And one other thing: You can see I put the larger shoe towards the front. I seem to recall there being a discussion about this. Is that correct?

Thanks!

[56willys]

That's looking great!

There should be a nut on the back of the eccentric that you can turn with a wrench. Since the shaft is off-set as it turns it will push the shoes outward. The way I was always taught was to keep turning each side with the drum on until they just slightly drag. I believe that's what your asking? Hope it helps.

Also I believe you are correct on the larger shoe towards the front. Those look like 9 inch drums, if so it's the same as mine, which had larger in the front. There was a discussion about this a while back. I think Bmorgil had alot of info on this.

[gmwillys]

You could almost use three hands to adjust the brakes. I found that a 3/4" Snap on offset boxed wrench, (for having a deep enough off set to clear the backer plate) a ratcheting 7/16" wrench, a pair of vise grips, and a feeler gage to set the shoe clearance. The opening in the face of the drum is for your feeler gage. You end up working back and forth from the top and bottom to get the correct happy medium, then torque the crap out of it so it stays. My upper adjusters were rounded off so I had to use the vise grips to hold the eccentric bolt. I ordered new lower eccentrics but not the upper.

[bmorgil]

Here are some links that might help on the brakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKlIszhs-gE

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2342-Longer-brake-shoe-in-front-or-back

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/lower-brake-shoe-adjusting-anchor-pin-tool-only-fits-41-53-mb-gpw-cj-2a-3a-m38/ (https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2342-Longer-brake-shoe-in-front-or-back)

[test1328]

Thanks for the help guys! Good info here. Should be a breeze to adjust them properly, although I'm not sure that my drums have the access hole in them for doing the feeler gauge type of adjustment.

[LarrBeard]

"Should be a breeze to adjust them properly ..."

Probably not, but you'll get it done and you'll be a lot wiser when you finish. You'll probably have at least one skinned knuckle invested in it ....

[bmorgil]

My drums did not have the holes for the feeler gauges. Some do and some don't have those slots. With those its the old "adjust them till they just start to drag and back them off just a touch" method 56willys describes below. You should hear the shoe just scrape the drum every now and then. You will have to do this with each adjuster. Follow the same sequence as if you had the feeler gauge slots. Make sure you set the brakes by stomping on the pedal hard prior to starting your adjustments.

I prefer to use this method myself. Like 56willys, I have always adjusted drums for a very slight drag. The drum should spin freely by hand but, I like to "hear" the shoes touch. Setting up drums with feeler gauges always left me with a little too much pedal.

[test1328]

Thanks for the additional comments, Bmorgil. That is exactly what I intend to do to adjust the brakes. I've done a lot of brakes in my time and remember setting them up just as you and 56willys describe. I'm sure they won't be such a breeze, but compared to other things I've encountered on this Jeep, I don't think it will be too bad. I'm just getting them close for now, since I haven't reinstalled the rebuilt Master Cylinder yet or the brake lines. I want to get the front brakes closed up, put the cover on the differential, fill it with oil, and then start putting the steering back together. The Master Cylinder will need to go in at the same time. Once I have all of that completed, then I'll feel comfortable to drop the engine back in. However, I'll probably wait on the engine until I get the transmission and transfer case taken care of. So, there is still a ton to do. But, you guys know what they say about eating an elephant, right?

[gmwillys]

You are correct, one bite at a time.

[test1328]

I've got another question or concern. I'm installing the front axle shafts. All is good as far as I can tell. However, when I install the shafts, both right and left and insert them as far as they will go, when I turn the shaft, the ring gear in the diff does not rotate. When I turn the pinion shaft, where the drive shaft connects, by hand, the axle shafts on both sides rotate. Do I have something wrong? Shouldn't the ring gear rotate when the axle shafts are rotated?

[test1328]

Also, on the seal that is inserted in the brake drum, should it be driven completely in until it bottoms out on the bearing or just far enough in so it sits flush with the lip of the drum?

[56willys]

Just making something clear, I'm probably wrong here, but here's my 2 cents.

Assuming you have an open diff. I'm trying to think, if both wheels are off the ground. When turning one wheel the driveshaft won't turn. Because of the spider gears. If you block one wheel and turn the other it will turn the drive shaft. If you don't have a locker, power goes to the least resistance. Since there's no resistance theres no power.

Maybe that's your problem?? Like I said my 2 cents (Probably not worth 1 cent) not a gear expert here.

[bmorgil]

All over it 56' those are the facts! Indeed test1238, it sounds like an open differential behaving as it was designed. I attached 3 links below that are surely more information than anyone wants! The first two are the engineering theory. The last one is a guy messing with a differential on the floor. If you have the time and want to see whats going on, these videos should help. They are fairly short videos.

The seal is driven into the brake drum until it is flush with the drum. As long as the seal lip is riding on the seal surface of the axle shaft, and the seal case is not protruding from the drum, it is in the right spot. Drive it into the drum until its flush.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOgoejxzF8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeLm7wHvdxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VvLw7pjk0

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. I hadn't thought about it being an open differential. That makes perfect sense. I was just watching a video where the ring gear was shown rotating and didn't pay attention to what the other side was doing.

Also, thanks for the info on the seal. I put it too far in and thought it didn't look right, so I'm glad I caught it beforehand.

[test1328]

Well, I'm still making progress on the Jeep, but seem to run into roadblocks at every turn. I successfully got the brakes adjusted on both sides and went to put on the old Warn locking hubs that I rebuilt. However, it was then that I realized that the head of one of the bolts was stripped, so tightening that one just wasn't happening. I also realized that I needed the locking tab washers for the hubs as well as the small OD 3/8" washers since a few had disappeared. So, I'm waiting on parts from KW and Amazon. I'll pick the bolt up at the hardware store.

So I'm now at the crossroads of deciding if I want/need to take the tub off the frame. I think that might make any body work a little easier as well as any mechanical work still to be done. But...if I take it off, I'll have to find a spot to set the hardtop as well as the body for a while and that presents other issues such as storage and where.

One other question I have for you on the transmission and transfer case removal. Any tips? I assume that it would be best to put a jack under them and then bring both down still attached to the cross member? Can I remove the bell housing first to make it lighter and easier to get out from under the vehicle? From what I can see in the diagram, nothing terrible would happen if I removed the bell housing. Doesn't look like there is anything there to worry about from doing that.

Thanks!

[bmorgil]

One other question I have for you on the transmission and transfer case removal. Any tips? I assume that it would be best to put a jack under them and then bring both down still attached to the cross member? Can I remove the bell housing first to make it lighter and easier to get out from under the vehicle? From what I can see in the diagram, nothing terrible would happen if I removed the bell housing. Doesn't look like there is anything there to worry about from doing that

We have discussed this in a few posts, most of us feel it is best and easiest to remove the transmission from the bell housing with the transfer case and cross member as a unit. The only trick is to get it high enough in the air that the assembly will roll out from underneath the vehicle.

I would leave the bell housing on the engine. The bell housing is easier to remove with the engine out, but it is not too bad once the transmission is out either. No mater what you do, support the engine in the rear. There rear motor mount is on the cross member. If you don't support the back of the engine it will stress the front motor mount rubber and the back of the motor will most likely tilt back and hit the firewall. If it does, on the L head it will crush the throttle linkage bracket.

[test1328]

Thanks, Bmorgil. I neglected to mention that the engine is still out of the vehicle. I haven't put it back in yet. So the engine bay is completely open. I've taken off the interior floor plates so I can easily see the bell housing to transmission bolts and was just wondering it it was easier to take them apart while the trans/transfer case are still mounted or if I should drop everything and take it all apart once they are out from under the vehicle.

[bmorgil]

If its high enough in the air to get it out with the bell housing on, it should be a piece of cake. Just unbolt the cross member from the frame and drop it down a few inches. Take the shifters off the transfer case and then drop it down the rest of the way and roll the whole thing out bell housing and all.

[56willys]

Om my cj5 I pulled the tub off for rust repair, and it was well worth it! I could not be doing the work I am if it was still on the frame. For the few bolts and wire needed to disconnect, it takes 2 people to lift the tub off, saves so much time/backache when doing rust repair. Or removing transmission. I set my tub on its side on two moving dollys from Harbour freight. Then it hardly takes up any floor space and can be shoved against a wall when not working or you can roll it anywhere in the shop to work on it.

[gmwillys]

The nice thing about a CJ5 is that the access cover for the transmission is big enough to where you don't even have to remove the steering wheel to pull the body. Us flat fender guys have a tiny cover that hugs the top of the shifter tower. I agree, it is a whole lot easier to just bite the bullet and pull the body and put it in a position to better suit your comfort.

[bmorgil]

I have to agree. Once you get going, you cant beat taking the tub off. Everything becomes very accessible. Of course once you pull that trigger, its hard to stop. The next thing you know you have it completely disassembled down to the frame.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. I guess you've convinced me to pull the tub. I've basically taken the front end down to the frame and I'm slowly working my way backwards! But, of course, I realized that I can't put the steering gear box/shaft in if I'm going to take the tub off, so some things just have to wait I guess.

I appreciate the advice on storing the tub on the moving dollys, 56willys! However, if you saw my shop, you'd realize that even doing that won't work. I've got too much stuff in there now, mostly due to Covid and having to buy weight sets for my two boys to continue their workouts while everything was closed and then hauling all of my Dad's stuff from his place down to mine when they moved. Some folks might call me a hoarder, I suppose. I know my wife would. I come by it honestly, though, since my Dad did the same thing. You never know when you might need this! :D

[56willys]

"mostly due to Covid and having to buy weight sets for my two boys to continue their workouts while everything was closed [/QUOTE]

The good news is you have some buff guys to lift the tub off and carry it wherever you need it. While you sit back drinking sweet tea!

I think you'll be glad you decided to take it down to the frame. You can put the steering box in and still take the tub off. There's enough clearance with the transmission cover off. Also I get the space thing, I had do do quite a bit of organizing to get my tub to fit inside the garage, tarp carports are life savers!

[test1328]

Yeah, I think tarps are gonna have to be my go-to for storing these. The other issue is that I have a Kelly Hard Top that needs to be removed and stored as well. Oh, well, always a problem to solve!

You're right, though, I will be utilizing my boys to help with this. I just have to wait until the oldest one is back from college to help. He's currently playing baseball in Wisconsin. His younger brother will be playing baseball in CA this fall, so then they'll both be away and I'll have to wait for both of them!!

[gmwillys]

Space is always a premium, no matter how much floor space you supposed to have.

[test1328]

Quick update. Finally got the Dana 25 buttoned up and filled with gear oil. As best I could figure it took 43 oz of oil to fill it.
11442

Also received the Warn locking washers for the front locking hubs that I rebuilt so I got those installed.
11443

And then I started in on the steering. I got the bell crank installed but that is all I could get to before I ran out of time.
11444
11445

One question I do have is on recommended torque values throughout the Jeep. I found, through some internet searching that the bell crank shaft nut should be tightened to 70-90 ft lb and that the bracket bolt that clamps down on the bell crank shaft should be torqued to 50 ft. lbs. My question is where do I find these values? Is there a central location to look torque values up? The repair manual doesn't mention anything about torque values that I can find.

[bmorgil]

If you can find a copy of your original 1961 Jeep Service manual, you might find them there. There are some torque specs in the back pages (Section U p275) of the -R6 reprinted Universal Manual. You have to be careful with the Universal Service Manual however. Sometimes the spec varies by year and the manual seems to have most of the specs from the 1965 models, the year for the CJ's when the manual (Form SM-1002-R6) was last reprinted by Jeep.

When you cant find the spec, you will have to use the SAE Bolt torque guide. I have bumped into that a few times.

[gmwillys]

Here is a quick reference for fastener torque specs.

https://www.engineersedge.com/torque_table_sae_ftlbs.htm

[bmorgil]

The SM-1002-XX manual was reproduced in a running format. Each edition was intended to cover prior model years. Sometimes the prior specs and process were left out. The -R 1 through 6 indicate the reprint edition with -R6 being the last one. The -R6 is the one I received from KW. Here is a link to some of the older editions.

This is a link to some of the original reprints. You can only look at the covers, I think this Link is to Walks old site. It is no longer functioning. If you want to try to get these publications, Mike at KW should know how to try to find them.

https://www.willysjeepparts.com/CJ_DJ_Service_Manuals.htm
(https://www.willysjeepparts.com/CJ_DJ_Service_Manuals.htm)
Here is another source for old manuals on CD:

https://www.bishauto.com/shop?ti=jeep-1ef9&yrF=1950

[test1328]

Thanks for the references, Bmorgil! I'll have to look into that. I've got the torque references for different bolt sizes and grades, but so many things on the Jeep don't use standard bolts/nuts and I hate to just rely on what I find on the internet, although most of the time, the internet stuff is accurate. I'll try to find one of the actual service manuals somewhere.

[test1328]

Been quite a while since I last posted. Can't say there has been a ton of progress made due to my boys' Spring and Summer baseball seasons and then taking them out to CA to go to school. Also had a ton of house projects this summer. Now I need to prepare for hunting season, so there seems like there is never enough time to work on the Jeep. However, I did accomplish my main goal for this summer and that was to get the hardtop and body off of the frame so I can more easily work on the heap. I needed to get that done before my boys left since I needed their muscle to carry them across my yard to store them outside of the shop. Here are a few pictures. I made the boys pose for posterity!

1179611797117991180011801

You can see that I've mostly been working on the front end. Now I can start on the PTO, Transfer Case, and Transmission. Getting the body off the frame was a chore. Many rusted bolts that had to either be cut off or ground off since they wouldn't turn. Fortunately, the hard top came off relatively easy. Pretty amazing since it has never been off since it was put on in '61. Those steel tops are not light, that is for sure.

One question that I have for you guys that came to mind after the body came off is in regards to the wiring harness. The wiring on this Jeep is actually in pretty decent shape for being so old. However, it is obviously quite old. I was wondering what you thought about the wiring harness from KW and if you thought that would be the better thing to do as opposed to continuing to use the original wiring? Anybody with experience using their new harness and any problems or issues encountered?

Best regards,
Paul

[bmorgil]

That has been a popular conversation. Here is one thread we had on it. There are a few more if you search for "Wiring Harness" but I think this thread had a few sources and ideas. I know TJones likes the Painless Wiring Harness.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2700-Wiring-harness

That baby is coming along nicely! That is a clean CJ you have there. That will turn out very nice! The boy's will love it.

[gmwillys]

There never seems to be enough time in the day.

As far as the wiring harness goes, The Painless wiring harness that TJ used is a great option especially if you are going to do a custom build. It works extremely well as an all new, modern electrical system. Modern fuse panel with blade fuses make for a great platform to any future additions. With that being said, the harness that KW offers is great for an original style restoration. It all boils down to what you'd like to see when you open the hood. Both will get the job done and will look good when ran. One will look original, where the other will function and still look clean. I like the original look, but also do not mind the functionality of the new harness.

[LarrBeard]

"Anybody with experience using their new harness and any problems or issues encountered?"

I bought a KWAS harness for the '48 truck and I have not regretted it in the least. The new harness laid right in, the ends and terminations came out in the right place, the wires were period correct and the right colors. (There was one intermittent crimped contact - on the horn button - that drove me nuts for about three years).

If you are going to go to the trouble to clean up the chassis and body, a new harness would look nice in there. The other consideration is that although the old harness looks pretty good, it only takes a couple of intermittent connections, broken wires or bad contacts to drive you nuts trying to find them.

Yeah, it's more money, but it may be money well invested.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys, for all the responses on the wiring harness. I suppose you have confirmed for me that my concern or worry is not unfounded about having problems in the future with the wiring if I just left the original wiring in place. I'd hate to have a pristine looking vehicle with recurring wiring issues that I have to track down and fix. As I've been working on this, I've also had to confront the question of do I leave it stock or do I try to improve things like brakes, alternator, headlights, etc. and have come to the conclusion that I'd rather keep everything stock in appearance and function. Therefore, it sounds like a KW wiring harness purchase is in my future. I'm really not looking forward to replacing all the wiring, especially under the dash, but I guess it's a necessary evil. Thanks again for your input.

[LarrBeard]

"I'm really not looking forward to replacing all the wiring, especially under the dash,"

If you go with a KW harness (or similar one) the good news is that everything is going to be the right length and it will lay into place without an undue amount of fussing and stretching.