61 CJ5 Resto Restart Info

[test1328]

I'm new here and starting a project to restore my Dad's old 1961 Willys CJ5 that has been parked since 1988. I'd like to ask all here to provide the steps you would take to get the engine started again so that I can get it on a trailer and transport it to my garage to start the real work. I haven't tried to turn the crankshaft just yet, but my Dad did try to put oil in the cylinders periodically over the years. I guess we'll see if that helped any. Everything seems to be intact and as we left it. I removed the front wheels/tires and the wheel cylinders look like they have leaked. The brake pedal doesn't go down very far and just hits a hard stop when I step on it. The clutch feels about like I remember it. Neither of those concern me much since I can work on those later. I just want to get the engine going so I can get it on a trailer. I've thought about flushing the gas tank, gas pump, and lines to remove the old gas. Any other suggestions of things to do before I try to start it would be appreciated.

Here are a few pics of it.

[bmorgil]

That's a great start test1328! I love the top on that thing. A lot of history in the tops. The paint appears to be original judging from the decals on the back. That thing looks pretty complete under the hood. I would say the oil in the cylinders was a great idea. It might make it a little hard to start but once it clears out it will be fine. The protection for the cylinders is paramount. Change out all the fluids trans engine and all before you run it or try to start it. You don't want to drag any contaminates that may have collected through it.

There is a great article on start up that Larrbeard, gmwillys and the late Pelago of this forum put together. I will add the link below.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?1820-Start-up-Best-Practices&highlight=start

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/dont-cold-start-a-long-dead-car/

[test1328]

Thanks, bmorgil! That is really helpful.

Yes, this Jeep has been in my family since my Dad bought it in 1966 and is all original. He four-wheeled the heck out of it and I did as well through my teen age years. The engine had lost compression in one cylinder back in 88 so he decided to park it and buy a newer 1983 CJ5. This 61 is complete and the paint is original. The top is original, too, and came from the factory with it. Being at high altitude, having a hard top is crucial to not freezing to death in the fall and winter!

[LarrBeard]

That is a good starting place. There are some rust throughs and several character marks from rocks, trees and bushes - but the top is a real bonus..

There is a great deal of satisfaction in bringing your Dad's vehicle back to life. I've been driving my Dad's '48, legally or illegally, since I was 12 years old - almost 65 years now!

Work through the fluids and try to keep any more crud out of the carburetor.

A lot of engines that needed a little work have been turned into major projects by trying to start them too soon. Patience Grasshopper.

You may just end up pulling it onto the trailer with a come-along or a pack of teen age boys.

Let us know how it goes!

[test1328]

I've made a bit of progress. I was able to try to turn the crank (I finally got the correct socket!) and believe it or not, the engine turned beautifully, with little effort to crank it around several rotations. Obviously, the oil in the cylinders made a difference.

The radiator is mostly dry, although I didn't try to drain it yet. However, there is nothing in sight when you open the radiator. I took the thermostat housing off and at first it appeared that the thermostat was encased in crystallized coolant, but when I went to try to remove the thermostat, it popped right out. It still seemed to open just fine so I put it back in for the time being. There was no coolant in the engine, though, so obviously everything has evaporated over time. I plan to drain the radiator and then refill it next time I'm working on it. Hopefully, I don't get a bunch of puddles underneath when I refill it!

Next, I moved to the gas tank. First I tried to drain it by removing the drain plug. When I did, I got about 20 drops of old gas out of it and that was all, so obviously, the gas has evaporated as well. It does smell a bit like varnish. I went to remove the tank to clean it but couldn't get the gas line fitting loose, so I can't remove the tank just yet. I need to get a flare nut wrench on it and can hopefully break it loose. I did order some Star Tron Gas Tank & Fuel system cleaner that is supposed to dissolve old gas varnish. I'll pour some of that in the tank and hopefully that will help loosen up the gas line fitting. Then I can clean it all up.

I also found out that the tires will hold air, at least for a few days, so I don't need to worry about buying new tires immediately. My Dad was a big believer in having tubes in the tires in case you broke a bead while four wheeling. Therefore, all tires have tubes in them and I suppose the tubes are protected from the UV and weather, so they seem to be able to be inflated without any heartache.

All in all, things are going along pretty smoothly so far.

Next steps are to remove the various gas lines from the fuel pump and carb and make sure they are cleaned out. I should probably look at cleaning the carb as well, but I'm not sure exactly what I need to do there. Maybe just squirting Carb Cleaner all over would be sufficient? Any suggestions are welcome. I'll also open the distributor cap and make sure the points are cleaned up a bit. And, I'll put in fresh plugs. Once all of that is done, I might be ready to try to fire the ol' girl up. We'll see, I suppose.

[LarrBeard]

Well , so far you have not had an "Oh - Shux" event.

Kudos on waiting to get the correct tools to unscrew fittings and such. Bubba and Junior would just "get on that sucker with a pair of vise grips". and booger them up.

You've not mentioned draining the oil pan. That will tell you a lot about things. Nasty, dirty oil is good - kind of clean is better. Milky is bad ju-ju. The cooling system is dry, let's just hope coolant hasn't ended up in the crankcase. Assume that the water pump will leak around the shaft - it's been dry a long time but it will be OK for start-up.

Before you crank it, pull the valve covers off and lubricate things liberally. Those lifters are dry and they won't get oil for a while once it starts turning over.

Do an oil and filter change and as part of the first start, pull the plugs and crank it through a pretty good number of times to get oil moving around. A mechanical oil gauge would be a good idea just to make sure you are getting oil pressure when you start it. While you are cranking it with the plugs out, check for spark at each plug.

AS for the carburetor, at least make sure the float is free and that the needle will close off the inlet. Gas fountains are exciting.

You are getting to the exciting part - keep us informed of progress (and setbacks as well).

[test1328]

LarrBeard, thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

I haven't drained the oil since when I checked the oil via the dipstick, it is full and looks relatively clean. It is not pristine, some blackened oil, but it smells good and looks good. No sign of water or milky. I also checked the filter and the oil in the filter housing looks good as well. I suppose you are right, though, that I should just drain the oil and change it and the filter to just be sure. Is just standard 30 weight oil what I should use? I hadn't heard anyone mention pulling the valve covers to lubricate things before, so I appreciate that. Sounds like a good idea. The jeep does have an oil gauge that always worked, so I'm hoping I can use that to indicate if I am getting pressure.

For the carb, how do I make sure the needle will close off the inlet? I'm not familiar with carbs in the least.

[bmorgil]

For the carb, how do I make sure the needle will close off the inlet? I'm not familiar with carbs in the least.

Unfortunately there isn't an easy way I can think of to see if the needle and seat will seal until the float bowl fills with fuel, lifts the float and closes the needle valve.

When the fuel flows from the pump it fills the float bowl which "floats" the float up and closes the needle valve. If you take the carb off you can turn it upside down and see if you are able to blow air gently into the the float bowl. That still isn't fool proof. It is the pressure of the float, floating in the fuel that closes the needle. It works just like a toilet!

The best bet here is to keep an eye the carb when you are cranking it. If the needle sticks closed you will never get fuel to the engine. If the needle is stuck open the engine will flood. You will smell and see excessive fuel in the carburetor. If it starts and the needle is stuck open, it will start to run rich and will probably stall out in a spurt of black smoke.

I would expect a little carb trouble. When they set until the fuel evaporates out of them, a lot of junk gets left behind. Often a carb rebuild is in order. If you are living right, it will fire right up and clean itself out. That has also happened! I would be prepared to do a carb rebuild however.

[LarrBeard]

"Is just standard 30 weight oil what I should use? "

For the clean out, just 30W non-detergent would be a good choice. That was the oil specified for Jeeps as original fill at normal temperatures. After several hours of running, drain that oil and change the filter because they will have all of the storage gunk in them.

Now, for long term use, this is going to sound like a strange recommendation. Most modern oils do not have much zinc in them as an additive. Lifters in older engines benefit from zinc. One of the best choices for a zinc rich oil (sounds like a vitamin pill or diet supplement) is Valvoline VR1 10W30. VR1 is a good 3000+ mile oil (or 2-year oil if you don't drive much) so the extra cost doesn't add up very fast.

I'd wait a bit to load it with really good oil - you may have a lot of oil running through the engine either as burning oil or seal leaks until things get settled down.

Good luck ...

And there are no dumb questions.

And you probably won't discover a new mistake either - we've made them all - most more than once.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. That answers my questions. I'll let you know how it goes this weekend. I have to travel 2 hours to my parents place where the Jeep is parked, so I have to plan out my activities and take everything that I need with me when I go. I'm also trying to paint their house, garage, and shed while I'm there, so my time with the Jeep is limited. Thanks again for the assistance!

[test1328]

Weekend update: First, I got the fuel line disconnected from the gas tank and removed the tank. Put my cleaner in and swished it around a bit and poured it out. The cleaner is meant to be mixed with gasoline, so I'm not worried about contaminating the tank. Nothing much came out. No sign of sludge or rust flakes, etc. Just the cleaner that turned a bit brown color. I put more cleaner in and let it sit overnight. Came out the next day and while just slightly brownish, the cleaner that poured out looked pretty good. I was pretty pleased with that. I put the tank back in the jeep and replaced the drivers seat.

Next, I drained the oil. Old oil just looked dark, no signs of contaminants or water. Refilled with clean oil.

Filled radiator with new coolant. Took about 2 gallons. No leaks apparent. Same level in radiator after 24 hours.

Disconnected all gas lines from tank to pump and pump to carburetor and sprayed carb cleaner through each line. No clogs, no gunk, everything looks good.

Removed air hose from carb and looked inside carburetor. All looked really clean. Sprayed carb cleaner all around just for the heck of it.

Removed distributor cap and inspected everything. It all looks pristine. Rotor, cap, points, condenser, all look like they are brand new. Was quite happy to see that.

Replaced spark plugs with new plugs with proper gap.

I didn't have time to remove the valve cover and lubricate things there, but other than that, I think I'm about ready to give it a try and try starting it.

I do have a couple of questions, though. When I go to start it and assuming that the starter works and it cranks the engine, would you recommend that I pour any gas or starter fluid in the carb to start, or just choke it and pump the gas pedal to get gas into the carb? Any thoughts on this?

Second, the only concerning thing so far that I've encountered is the hard stop on the brake pedal when I step on the brake. The pedal goes down about an inch and then just hits a hard stop like the pedal hit a rock. No give at all. Is it possible that the master cylinder is stuck? If the wheel cylinders were leaking, etc., I would understand the pedal going to the floor, etc., but this hard stop is weird. Any recommendations on what to look at first? I really don't want to try to do a brake job at its current location. I think I can manage to get it on a trailer without brakes, but it would be nice if I had something to help stop. What would you recommend I look at first?

[bmorgil]

I do have a couple of questions, though. When I go to start it and assuming that the starter works and it cranks the engine, would you recommend that I pour any gas or starter fluid in the carb to start, or just choke it and pump the gas pedal to get gas into the carb? Any thoughts on this?

Second, the only concerning thing so far that I've encountered is the hard stop on the brake pedal when I step on the brake. The pedal goes down about an inch and then just hits a hard stop like the pedal hit a rock. No give at all. Is it possible that the master cylinder is stuck? If the wheel cylinders were leaking, etc., I would understand the pedal going to the floor, etc., but this hard stop is weird. Any recommendations on what to look at first? I really don't want to try to do a brake job at its current location. I think I can manage to get it on a trailer without brakes, but it would be nice if I had something to help stop. What would you recommend I look at first?

You want to strike a balance here. You can expect the bearings are dry from sitting. Because of that it would be best if it cranked until you see oil pressure. Then I would hit it with fuel or ether. A little ether or a few tablespoons of fuel. I do not start new engines or engines that have set for a long time without priming the system. That is not saying a lot of guys just spray em' and give it a try. I have seen a lot of bad things that can occur doing that. I have also heard a lot of guys say "I did it and it worked fine." On the little 134's it is quite easy to insure the motor is primed with oil prior to a dry start. Remove the oil supply line to the filter from the block. Using a large plastic disposable veterinary syringe, pressurize the engine with oil. When you are confident you have filled the system (you should hear oil dripping back into the pan) quickly reinstall the oil line. Now give it a few cranks, no ignition and it will come up with pressure quickly and on freshly lubricated bearings. As soon as you see some pressure stop, give it some fuel or either, turn on the ignition and give it a go.

A hard stop is usually not good. It is probably the piston frozen in the bore. Crack a bleeder and try to bleed a line. If it wont bleed when you press on the brake you found it.

[test1328]

Thanks, Bmorgil. Appreciate the help and insight.

[test1328]

OK. Here's the latest update from this past weekend. Really, was only able to spend about 2 hours on it since the rain showed up and made things difficult.

First, on the brakes. I opened up the master cylinder and found it dry. So...I filled it up with brake fluid and let it sit for a while. After about 1 hour, I pressed on the brake pedal and finally got some movement. So, now the pedal compresses with little resistance, so at least the brake cylinder is free and moving. The bad news is the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor, so there is obviously a leak, probably many. I'm pretty sure that the wheel cylinders are leaking, so I will need to work on those at some point. I'm sure a complete brake job all the way around is in order to get things right, but that will take a bit.

Next, I primed the engine with oil as suggested. Then I cleaned the battery connections that haven't seen a battery for over 30 years. Next, I installed the battery. I put about 5 gal of gasoline in the tank and primed the carburetor with a few ounces of gas. Now it was go time! I was pretty excited. I got a thrill when I turned the ignition key and saw the little "Amp" light on the speedometer light up. I haven't seen that in a looooong time! I cranked on the starter for a bit and saw the oil pressure rise substantially, so that was good. Then I tried to choke the carb and boy, was it hard to pull. So I oiled the choke cable at the carb and after a few pulls, it was opening and closing almost as normal. Started cranking the engine over after pumping the gas pedal lots and finally got it to turn over, but just for a few seconds. I repeatedly continued to add gas to the carb and could get the engine to run each time, but only for a few seconds and then it would die. This happened both with and without the choke engaged.

So, my conclusion is that the engine will run if I can get the gas to the carb in sufficient supply. I'm starting to believe the carburetor is the issue and would like some input on what my next steps might be. I started pouring gas into the carb and it seemed like it would take as much as I could put in. It just drained to the bottom and where it is going, I don't know. I thought it would eventually fill up, but that never happened. Maybe my understanding of carbs is wrong on this account? I did see that there was a small amount of gas leaking out of the seal between the carb and the engine. I didn't try to tighten the nuts here since I didn't have enough time, but I don't think that is the primary problem. Is it possible the float is stuck or the jets are clogged and I need to take the carb off and do a thorough cleaning? I was never able to tell if the fuel pump was working or not either. I'd like to think the pump wouldn't go bad just sitting there, but who knows? Any other thoughts on what to do next are welcome.

In any case, the positives are that the engine seems to be fine and operational, I've got good oil pressure, the starter works, the ignition switch works, and the brake master cylinder is working to some degree. All in all, I'm very encouraged!

[bmorgil]

That all sounds good! I think the fuel is draining out of the carb. I would plan on a rebuild kit or a rebuilt carb. Stick with the Carter carburetor.

[LarrBeard]

"I'm starting to believe the carburetor is the issue and would like some input on what my next steps might be. Is it possible the float is stuck or the jets are clogged and I need to take the carb off and do a thorough cleaning? I was never able to tell if the fuel pump was working or not either. I'd like to think the pump wouldn't go bad just sitting there, but who knows? Any other thoughts on what to do next are welcome."


The first time you give an engine a whirl and it comes up - even a little bit; you want to shout “It’s alive!” Kind of like Dr. Frankenstein…

Since it runs, you are probably in good shape for ignition components. My best guess would be a dried out, stopped up carburetor as a first guess.

Pouring gas down a carburetor won’t fill it up. When you pour gas down the throat, it just runs through the throat and barrel down into the intake manifold. That is probably what you saw leaking out of the gasket between the carburetor and engine.

If you’ve not played with carburetors, you have to decide what to do with the one you have.

A. Try to rebuild it. Look on Page 192 of the 2021 KWAS catalog and you will see Master carburetor repair kits. There are a lot of little parts. You Tube and Mrs. Google will help you figure out where they go. This is the lowest dollar option, but lots of time and there is a learning experience there. And, if things don’t work after the rebuild, you always wonder if you missed something when you put things back together. BUT - the Carter YF is just about as basic as a carburetor gets and its not an impossible job if you just take your time, make a lot of pictures and lay things out in order.

B. Put on a rebuilt carburetor. Look on Page 191. There is the SOLEX option as a low dollar choice (my opinion, a very bad option…) and the option of a rebuilt Carter (a much better option in my biased opinion). Several writers have had good luck with SOLEX units, but a lot have also said “I could have/should have had a Carter” after issues with the SOLEX.

And, yes, fuel pumps can and will go bad after sitting in the barn for a long time. Diaphragms rupture, check valves don’t and they will get full of gunk, rust and scale and just not pump at all. You can disconnect the gas line from the carburetor, crank the engine and see if you get fuel to the carburetor inlet. (Pulling the plugs makes it spin faster and is easier on battery and starter.)

If not, you can rig up a “gas transfusion” rig and let gas flow into the carburetor by gravity, like a Model T. Be very careful with fuel spills if you try that and don’t do it in the barn with dry hay around.

You’re getting there and you got a lot done in just a couple of hours. Keep at it and let us know what’s the next discovery.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. Great advice. I think I'll try removing the gas line from the carb and see if I'm actually getting any gas to it first. That should tell me if the pump is working at least. If it isn't, then I can replace the pump and try again. If it is working, then taking the carb off and rebuilding it seems to be the way to go. I definitely want to keep the Carter YF and not try something new. I'm used to taking apart complex things, so I think I can handle the carb rebuild, but taking lots of pictures, etc. will be a priority.

[TJones]

Test1328 you are sooo close to driving it around it sounds like!!

[test1328]

TJones, yes! It is pretty darn exciting. Not that I'll be driving it around much at all until there is more work done on it, but I just want to get it to my garage so that the real restoration work can start. But if I can get the thing to move on its own power, that will be a huge accomplishment. Next year will mark 35 years since it was put into its current location. It would be awesome to see it move out of that spot on its own before then.

[TJones]

It takes time and patience buddy, mine sat for almost 30 years before I drug it onto a trailer and took it to my shop then it took 3.5 to get it mobile on its own.
It will be WELL worth the time, effort and of course the money. It will be something to be proud of especially when you do it all by yourself!!!
Like I’ve told so many people “you came to the right place for answers”
Between these 3 guys (gmwillys,Larrbeard and bmorgil) there is nothing they don’t know about Jeep’s and what makes em tick or tock!!!

[5JeepsAz]

This is terrific. Looking forward to the next thing as much as you are. Keep on...

[bmorgil]

LarrBeard listens better than me. I thought you were putting fuel into the carb bowl and you were getting it going by pumping the gas. That would indicate the carb is getting fuel from the fuel pump.

With all the thoughts in mind, you can try to fill the float bowl to check it out a little more thoroughly. Inject a few ounces of fuel into the carburetor bowl down the vent tube, prime the carb and see if it will run and fill the bowl from the pump. If it runs for a few minutes and runs out of fuel, the fuel pump probably isn't pumping sufficient fuel.

1988 was a long time ago. I am thinking a carb rebuild and a fuel pump is inevitable, but I could be wrong!

[test1328]

Thanks for the responses, guys. Bmorgil, that's what I'll try to do next. I'm afraid you're right about the carb rebuild and fuel pump. I'd just rather do that later, rather than sooner, and in my shop and not outside on the ground. But, it isn't that big of a deal if I have to do that. I'm looking forward to what I can find out this next weekend. Time is getting short up at 10,000 ft. elevation and I want to get this out of the yard before the snow flies!

[LarrBeard]

"Inject a few ounces of fuel into the carburetor bowl down the vent tube, prime the carb and see if it will run and fill the bowl from the pump. If it runs for a few minutes and runs out of fuel, the fuel pump probably isn't pumping sufficient fuel.[/QUOTE]



Wow, another great life hack from the Doc on how to do things. I'd never thought of doing it that way ...

[test1328]

Here's the weekend update:

I did what bmorgil suggested and filled the carb bowl with gas through the vent tube. I did this twice just to be sure. Each time, the engine would fire right up and run for maybe a minute at most and then die, no matter how many times I pumped the gas pedal. That told me that everything was good except that the pump wasn't pumping anything. Next, I removed the gas line from the carb and put a rubber hose on it to direct it into an old coffee can. Then I went to start the Jeep and pumped the gas pedal, etc. Then went and checked the can and it was bone dry. Not a drop of gas coming out. Remember that I flushed all of the gas lines from the tank to the pump and from the pump to the carb, so I know there are no obstructions in the lines (or at least there weren't at the time!). Therefore, I think the only logical conclusion is that the pump is not working. I have a new pump from KW coming so I'll try to get that changed next weekend and hope that solves the problem.

I do need to see if I can figure out the brake problem, I suppose. I really hate to start tearing into them in it's current location, but having at least some brakes might be a good idea. I just have to figure out which wheel it is leaking from and then try to fix that one and hope I have at least some braking power after that. Then I'll be ready for transport!

[bmorgil]

Good news 1328! I agree, the fuel pump is toast. The thing about the brake problem that I foresee is the inevitable "uh oh". You know like you find a leak and go to fix it, and then something else lets go and the leak grows, it begins to morph in to a "Kraken". I can just see a brake line twisting right off when you try to remove it.

I am thinking a plan "B" might be to have a trailer or a cheap U-Haul rental dolly close by.

[gmwillys]

If a wheel cylinder or line is leaking, crimp off that section, re-bleed and then move it to where you are able to fix the brakes correctly.

[LarrBeard]

"If a wheel cylinder or line is leaking, crimp off that section,.."

I'd suggest that GMwilllys means crimp off either the front or rear brakes, not just the right front or left rear....

Or for a move of 20 or 30 feet - just one might be OK ...

You just need a little brake

[gmwillys]

I will elaborate in my comment;

If you have a wheel cylinder leak, and the line going to that cylinder are slated to be replaced, then I would crimp off just the wheel cylinder line. 75% braking is better than 50%. If the line going to the rear between the master cylinder and rear T at the rear end is leaking, crimp it shut. In this case 50% is better than 0%. If both your front and rear lines are leaking, then I would stay your course and band aid it together until you can safely move the Jeep where you can do your work. It isn't fun, it is an adventure trying to drive a new project home on a wing and a prayer. In High school, I bought a $50. '67 International 3/4 ton pickup. It only had one functioning front brake. Every time you had to stop, the rear end wanted to come around and lead for a while. These days I trailer everything.

[bmorgil]

gm is correct a pair of vice grips and some good crimping could get three brakes or so working.

There are a few ways to get it home to work on. One other way, the little jeeps don't weigh much and work quite well with a simple tow bar and a trailer hitch. I think you should get it where it is going to go into intensive care, by hook or crook. I however am too old to work on them in remote locations anymore! I need my "stuff" (coffee, air conditioning, heat and a lift). A U-Haul tow bar or Two Wheel Car Dolly and back to the garage for me. Lose one more line on the way home, with a one chamber brake master cylinder and things will get interesting. The emergency brake may not stop it fast enough if at all.

[test1328]

Thanks for your help, guys! Much appreciated. I'll get a better look at the brakes as soon as I can. My plan all along was to trailer it home. It's a 2 hour drive over a few passes so I don't intend to drive it. I really just want to be able to stop when I put it on the trailer and then when I get it into my shop. And, assuming I can put it into low range, I know I won't be going too very fast, so up to this point I really wasn't worried about brakes, figuring I could get it to stop if I put a few blocks down. I might still do that if the brake issue is very bad. But, if it turns out that the brake issue is relatively minor, I may try to do something with it.

Regarding a tow bar or two wheel car dolly, I hadn't considered doing that since I was somewhat concerned about the wheel bearings being dry and causing me problems on the way. Would you guys be concerned with that or not? Sounds like you've got some experience doing this on older Jeeps, so maybe I'm worrying needlessly?

[bmorgil]

I like your caution and your approach. I agree on the bearings. Trailering it would be my preferred way for a 2 hour mountain ride. If it was just a hop across town at low speed I would be very tempted to pull or push it. I would remove the driveshafts, roll it and listen for any sound that wasn't "normal". A trailer is the best way to go with unknowns. My luck a leaf spring would break and stop all the fun!

When you are sure of the bearings and general mechanical condition, with a tow bar and locking front hubs, you can tow bar them anywhere. Just unlock the front hubs and remove the rear driveshaft. They will roll forever, like a trailer with a windshield. Every now and then you will see a CJ stuck to the back of an R.V..

[gmwillys]

On my 2A, the rear axle has a grease fitting on each side for the axle bearing, I've never thought of looking on the '63 wagon to see if they were still in use in later models. Dr. Dana will know for sure. A few pumps of grease would be enough, but don't over do it because you can pump too much in and push grease through the axle seal into the brakes. Then follow Bmorgil' s advice with the removal of the drive shaft.

[bmorgil]

The axle was the same as far as the grease zerk until about '75 when they went to the one piece axle and flange. The grease zerk is a "flow through" set up. There is a tiny hole on the opposite side of the axle tube from the grease zerk. Pump in grease until it comes out of the tiny hole in the axle tube. Be sure that tiny hole is clear or you will push grease past the seal as gm warns about.

If you don't have hub locks you would remove both driveshafts (front and rear) if you were gong to pull it down the road. I still like the idea of the trailer. Just in case a rotating bearing somewhere might seize up in a 2 hour run, and ruin something that was repairable.

[gmwillys]

I have to find the link again, but there was an article in 4 Wheeler where they mounted lock out hubs on the rear axle for flat towing.

An added bit of hard learned information.... If one where to flat tow a Jeep, you have to use a heavier vehicle to pull the Jeep. If you use a vehicle of the same weight, the Heep will not steer back straight after a turn. An S10 Blazer is a prime example of what not to pull a jeep with. The Blazer doesn't have enough arse end weight to make the Jeep track behind.

[51 CJ3]

Power is better but I have used a come-along to winch vehicles onto trailers.

I used to do a lot of rock crawling and I could drive all day and never touch the clutch and seldom use the brakes. I think I would probably use those tactics to load onto a trailer if engine starts and stops properly. It would be a good idea to practice a little before getting into a confined space with no outs.

My CJ5 liked to break the clutch linkage at the worst times. After having to cross downtown Tucson without a clutch, I always carried a spare clutch cable adjuster. I think that problem was common to the V6 CJ5.

[bmorgil]

I think you are all over it Jeff... Power! A trailer with a winch solves all things. It sounds like you are in a position to get it done. In your Crawler you were probably pretty sure there was nothing to prevent you from putting the power to it and crawling up. Since the mechanical condition of this thing is unknown, I like the winch idea even more. You would hate to blow it up in the middle of the whole deal!

[test1328]

Great input guys! Thanks.

I'm confident that I can get it running and under its own power once I put the new fuel pump in. Then I'll see if it will roll and make sure there isn't something else that would prevent me from getting it on the trailer. I hadn't thought of this before, but I do have my other 83 CJ5 in the same location and could potentially use its winch to winch the 61 onto the trailer, if necessary. I just have to make sure I can handle it once I get it back to my house since the 83 won't be there then.

One other question: The new fuel pump was just delivered and it got me to thinking about whether or not I need to prime the pump before I install it. Any thoughts on how to do that if necessary?

[bmorgil]

No need Jeff. If there is fuel in the float bowl it will run long enough to get the pump going. It just takes it a few seconds once the engine fires.

[test1328]

Perfect! Thanks!

And I'm not Jeff - My name is Paul.

[51 CJ3]

I bought my CJ2 at an estate auction. The auction service was kind enough to set the Jeep on my trailer with a forklift. When I got home I lined the trailer up with a tree leaving 30 feet or more for the Jeep to slow down. Then I gave the Jeep a push. I had it spaced just about right. A light tap to the tree had it stopped. I let myself get rushed that day. If I had parked the other direction I wouldn’t have needed to use the tree as a stop because there is nothing out there to hit. The tree kept me out of the fence.

[gmwillys]

Proper planning wins the day. At my Rust Ranch, it isn't a problem to unload from the trailer, but rather to bring a project down out of the back half of the yard. It is all down hill since I'm butted up against a mountain. The last M38 I had positioned in storage had no brakes and the drive line was missing several key components. Just get it to start rolling, hop in, and buzz through the gate at the driveway. Use the front yard to turn back up hill to slow to a gentle stop before you get to the road ditch and county highway. No sweat!

Our apologies Paul, we sometimes lose track to whom we are chatting with, since many jump in to add their opinions or experiences. Thank you for keeping us honest!

As for priming the fuel pump, I wouldn't bother with it. The geometry of the fuel system lines are such that there is very little lift required to draw the fuel through the pump. As soon as you put fuel in the tank, she's pretty much primed already. Then it is just the lift up to the carb, and if you fill the carb through the vent, and the bowl is full of fuel, it will not take but two tries at the very most to be up and running off the pump.

[bmorgil]

Perfect! Thanks!

And I'm not Jeff - My name is Paul.

Whoops got you mixed up with 51 CJ3! As you see I get mixed up fairly easy!

OK Paul, as soon as you get the pump on let us know how it goes.

[test1328]

No issues on my end with my name, guys! I know how easy it is to mix things up on these threads. Just figured I'd correct things and introduce myself as well!

Definitely, I'll let you know how it goes. If I can keep it running, I'll try to take a short video to post here.

[test1328]

Not sure what happened here. I would have sworn that I updated everyone on my progress between 8/26 and now (9/21). But it looks like whatever was here was lost.

[test1328]

Just to reiterate, I was able to get the Jeep running and moving after replacing the fuel pump. Now it starts right up and stays running, which is amazing in itself!

This past weekend I was able to drive it up the ramp to the Uhaul trailer and was able to transport it the two hours to my home. It was an adventure, that's for certain.

First, the CJ5 was almost too narrow for the tires to fit the ramps on the Uhaul car transport. I had about 1 inch of the tire tread on each side that didn't contact the ramp, so it was a little sporty getting the Jeep up the ramp. I had it in low range, so I was able to get it up there no problem. The brakes weren't a problem for me since I was going slow enough and there is a stop on the trailer to prevent you from going off the end.

Second, on the way home, my tow vehicle blew something and I developed a coolant leak that made the vehicle overheat right at the top of the pass. They had a water container at the top but that helped little since it was leaking out about as fast as I could poor it in! So...I had my wife drive my F250 up and proceeded to disconnect the trailer and then reconnect it to my truck. Finally got the Jeep home at about 10AM.

After that all went smooth and I was able to drive the Jeep into my shop. Major accomplishment!!!

[test1328]

I've asked myself what my goals are for this Jeep. I've concluded that I don't really want or need to do a full restoration. I just want to get it to a point that it runs like it should, has the power that it should, and has full capabilities, such as an operational PTO winch, full 4WD operation, etc. Making it look decent is also something that I'd like to do as well.

So...now I need to figure out where to start and what to work on first?? Obviously, the brakes need to be worked on, so that is a given. And, the body needs some TLC. And, the engine probably needs to be worked on, also. I plan on checking the compression sometime very soon. As I remember, that is why my Dad parked it in the first place, was because one of the cylinders wasn't holding compression and therefore needed a valve job. I'm not an engine guy, so I'm not certain if doing just a valve job is a good idea or if the whole engine needs to be overhauled and cleaned up. Any recommendations on how to proceed with the engine? Also, since I'm not an engine guy, is this type of work something you think I could do on my own or would I be better off finding someone who can do the work on the engine for me.


I'm sure that a lot of you have done a similar project, so it would be quite helpful if you could offer your advice on how to proceed, i.e. what to work on first, if there is any reasoning or lessons learned on what not to start on, what order to work on things, etc. I would appreciate your input.

[bmorgil]

test, I would dig into the Universal Service Manual and see if the process looks like more than you want to do. You will need some specialized tools, depending on how deep you go. If the engine/Cylinder Head needs a rebuild, you may want to ask the machine shop doing the machining what they want to assemble it.

[test1328]

bmorgil, thanks! I'll do that. I suspect I'll need to have someone do that for me, but you never know. I want to make sure it is right, so me doing it might not be the best idea! HA!

I'll have to do a search to see if there is anyone local that specializes in Jeep engine rebuilds.

[LarrBeard]

A. Everyone lost stuff from 28 August until about yesterday.

B. I'll have to do a search to see if there is anyone local that specializes in Jeep engine rebuilds.

The good news is that Jeep F-134 engines are so simple just about every engine rebuilder can do one. As a rough estimate, a complete internal rebuild from oil pan to cylinder head should run about $3K. Not chump change, but if you go that way you know it is solid from the ground up and barring something weird happening, it is done forever.

[test1328]

Thanks, LarrBeard! At least now I know I'm not crazy concerning losing posts made to this thread previously. I got to questioning myself if I ever posted things or if I just imagined it.

I've done a bit of internet searching so far and I haven't really found anyone locally here in the Denver area that specializes in Jeep engine rebuilds, at least on Jeep engines of this era. I'll keep looking.

Thanks for the estimate on the engine rebuild. I had no real idea how much it might cost.

[test1328]

Checked compression last night on the engine. 90 psi, 5, 75, and 90 when "dry". Added oil and the 5 went to 10 and the 75 went to 85. Looks like engine work is in my immediate future.

[LarrBeard]

"Checked compression last night on the engine. 90 psi, 5, 75, and 90 when "dry"."

It will be interesting to see what is in the 5# hole. That looks like something broken (valve, piston), not just worn. The 90# readings are not up to snuff, but there are a lot of 90# engines still perking about out there.

[bmorgil]

90 will work in a cold engine, the 75 isn't way off. You really have to warm them up to get a good idea of the pressure. The big thing is the amount of pumps to get the number and the difference as it pumps up. The Universal Service Manual has the best written procedure I have seen on this subject. Takes you back to the very basics.

Now the 5? I also can't wait to see that one. It does look like your off to the machine shop soon! I think you would find the tear down within your capability. If you have the Universal Service Manual (I sound like a salesman) follow it step by step. The engine can be torn down in the engine bay or out, Some basic hand tools will get it done. A dirty, grimy fantastic experience for a mechanic at heart.

I promise you, you will learn much, much more from the tear down and failure analysis, than any other thing you will do (as a mechanic or engineer).

[51 CJ3]

I like the Universal Service Manual as well. I have yet to encounter anything that wasn’t in it. I think the military manuals are even better because the Army understood that just because they called a person a mechanic it wasn’t necessarily true. Same info, just presented a little different and sometimes with a little more detail.

[bmorgil]

Now we both sound like the Service Manual Salesmen! I would use that manual to teach a class. It is really easy to follow and spot on. I did find the procedure for disassembling the water pump was incorrect. A few have bumped into that one. It will cost you a pulley if you follow it! There are a few links in the "Tech Library Section" here to the Military TM9- manuals. They definitely step you through.

[gmwillys]

Government TI manuals were, and still are designed and written for the average 18 year old with an 8th grade education.

[test1328]

Thanks for the comments, guys! I do have the Universal Service Manual and have been reading it quite thoroughly. My Dad purchased it probably back in the 70s so it is a little worn and some pages falling out, but it is still usable! I think I have convinced myself that I could tear this engine down. I'm not a bad mechanic for most things so I think I could do OK. It's the rebuild that I have concerns about. I'm also a mechanical engineer, so that could be dangerous as well!:D

But, one way or another, I will need to get the engine pulled out, so that is the next step, I suppose. I need to acquire an engine stand. I can borrow an engine hoist, but will need something to put the engine on once it is out.

[bmorgil]

You mean you have an original service manual? Oh man that is the greatest way to get in the nostalgia groove! I have a reprint. I wanted to find an original that had some grease on it. Typically the photo's are much better and the history is pressed in. Having the OG manual or even a reprint that my Dad purchased would just keep me grinning!

A Mechanical Engineer must tear down his own engine, there must be a law somewhere about that. I am now quite confident that you will have no problem tearing it down and determining what went wrong. For a stand, you will have a tough time beating this price on the link below, on a stand with 4 casters instead of 3. I would always try to stick to a 4 caster stand. A 3 will also work for you but don't pay more than $50 for it. Usually you can find a used one for pretty cheap. The little motor isn't that heavy.

All that aside, you will note in the service manual they tear it down on a work bench. An engine stand is much easier however. You should be able to rent an engine hoist fairly cheap. Make sure you have the motor ready to come out before you rent it. To transport to the shop you may want to go there and ask them for an engine pallet to bring the motor to them. If you find a shop that is warm and accommodating, they should be happy to help you get the motor to them.

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=Engine%20Stand

[TJones]

You mean you have an original service manual? Oh man that is the greatest way to get in the nostalgia groove! I have a reprint. I wanted to find an original that had some grease on it. Typically the photo's are much better and the history is pressed in. Having the OG manual or even a reprint that my Dad purchased would just keep me grinning!

A Mechanical Engineer must tear down his own engine, there must be a law somewhere about that. I am now quite confident that you will have no problem tearing it down and determining what went wrong. For a stand, you will have a tough time beating this price on the link below, on a stand with 4 casters instead of 3. I would always try to stick to a 4 caster stand. A 3 will also work for you but don't pay more than $50 for it. Usually you can find a used one for pretty cheap. The little motor isn't that heavy.

All that aside, you will note in the service manual they tear it down on a work bench. An engine stand is much easier however. You should be able to rent an engine hoist fairly cheap. Make sure you have the motor ready to come out before you rent it. To transport to the shop you may want to go there and ask them for an engine pallet to bring the motor to them. If you find a shop that is warm and accommodating, they should be happy to help you get the motor to them.

https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=Engine%20Stand

Test1328
If you can get on Facebook Marketplace there are a bunch of 4 caster engine stands near you within a 20 mile radius for $50.00 or less that would suit you perfect.

[test1328]

Well, I guess you guys have convinced me to move it forward. I will try to do the engine and I've got enough knowledgeable people here on this site and that I know personally that I'm sure can get me through the process.

I asked a buddy here at work today if he had an engine stand or knew anyone that wanted to get rid of one and it turns out he had one that he was looking to get rid of. So, I guess we're in business. It will most likely be a slow process, but no one said I was in a hurry!

[gmwillys]

I play the part of a quality engineer, so I know you'll have no issues in rebuilding your engine. The 134 is pretty basic, and as long as you follow your Dad's manual, you'll do just fine.

[bmorgil]

Taking your time is the best part. No pressure, you can't wait till its done, but its your own time schedule. This is where perfection and attention to detail are born. The tear down will be enjoyable for you. I cant wait to see what happened in that cylinder. Take lots of photos when it comes apart t, we live precariously through you guy's!

Have you found your machine shop yet? what part of the country are you in? Someone on the forum may have a "Guy".

[TJones]

Have you found your machine shop yet? what part of the country are you in? Someone on the forum may have a "Guy".[/QUOTE]

In a previous thread he mentioned the Denver area bmorgil

[TJones]

In a previous thread he mentioned the Denver area bmorgil

[TJones]

There you go here's what I am talking about on this site, I just got kicked off and logged back in and I'll be da*^ed if it didn't post twice.

[bmorgil]

We will get the bugs worked out on the site, I never give up.

I have heard a few good things about these boy's. McCabe Motorsports in Colorado Springs or All Pro in Denver (a small call for appointment shop). They are High Performance Shops. That can mean a little more cost but, typically the HP shops are going to do it right and not cut corners. All Pro specializes in the older motors. If these guys cant help you they can point you in the right direction. You can always ship it to a shop that knows the Go-Devil well. I have one near me that does a few Go-Devils a year. I have also heard about some other shops in the Denver area that are not so good. Once you find a shop, a visit will tell you a lot about them. First and foremost ask are they familiar with the Go-Devil engine? It has a few little secrets but nothing a quality shop wont be able to handle. Do they have a few engines running around a local track doing well? Do they do classic engines? This is the one thing about assembling yourself. I check everything they do. It takes some very precise and expensive tools to check the machine shops work however, and I have paid dearly for those tools over the years. If it is a good shop and they are assembling engines, I would say your in the right place.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. Yes, I'm in the Denver area, Broomfield, to be specific, so the north part of the Denver metro area. But I don't mind traveling a bit for the right shop and CO Springs isn't that far, really. I'll check both shops out and see how much it will cost.

As I said, I'm not much of an engine guy, so can you tell me what exactly I should be asking these shops to do for me? Once I get the engine out of the vehicle, all the add-on parts like the generator, radiator, carb, etc. will come come off or already be off prior to pulling the engine. Then, how much further should I be taking the engine down and which parts should I be transporting to the shop? Thanks for the help and guidance.

And, yes, I do intend to take lots of pictures and will share them with you once I get going.

[bmorgil]

The shop will be able to tell you a lot. Once you tear it down completely, everything apart down to the lifters and the valve spring keepers in your hand. Put all the parts in HD baggies and mark the spots they came from with a card in the baggie (this will save you money). The shop will need to clean it and measure everything to see what it actually needs. I would expect:

A) Removal of the cam bearing and all plugs and a thorough hot tank cleaning of everything

1) The Crankshaft needs to be ground on the mains and the rods
2) The rods should be re-sized and all new bots and nuts installed
3) The block will need to be bored and finish honed
4) The deck should be surfaced to flat and the head should be surfaced to flat
5) The valve seats need to be reconditioned and if not hardened, install hardened exhaust seats
6) The valves need to be checked for wear and reconditioned or replaced
7) The valve guides need to be checked for wear and reconditioned or replaced
8) The main bearing cap alignment and size needs to be checked and honed if needed
9) The camshaft bearing needs to be installed
10) The camshaft needs to be checked for wear (some shops cant do this)
11) The lifter bottoms need to be checked for wear
12) Install new soft plugs ( I prefer brass)

A lot depends on what they find.

There are a few more things of course, and I am sure I forgot something, but these are the things you will pay for. The rest depends on who will assemble it. Clean the big hunks off of it to be nice to the shop guy. You are going to bring him a disassembled cylinder head with the parts in baggies. A torn down block with the pistons and rod assemblies out with the main and rod caps back on in their original locations and snugged. The crankshaft, and the camshaft and lifters. Do not mix up the lifters. Make sure you know which lifter came from which camshaft lobe. If you bring the oil pan and valve cover ask him if he will hot tank them also.

If you have the money, have them balance the rotating assembly. The little motor has a long stroke. A good balance will smooth it out when your running 50.

[test1328]

Wow. Thanks so much for the list, bmorgil! Lots of stuff that I have no idea about or that I would need to do, so this is a tremendous help. I'll be sure to store this list away so I don't lose it in the event that we lose posts here again.

[bmorgil]

You are welcome t, I enjoy the machine shop experience the most. I am sick that way!

[test1328]

Well, it's a good thing for guys like me that there are "sick" guys like you out there to help us out with this stuff! I was just thinking that getting the engine out, apart, and to the machine shop will be my wintertime activity since I won't have a bunch of sports (other than basketball games) to be attending for my boys who are in high school. I'm sure I'm like most when I think about always wishing I had more time to do the things I enjoy. At least I now have the Jeep in the shop and will have a decent place to work on it when the weather is bad. I also picked up the engine stand today that a friend at work gave to me. Said he had two and was looking to get rid of one to free up space. So, at least some progress is being made. Once hunting season is over, I can start in on it in earnest. After hunting season is over, I'll be driving my 1983 CJ5 down to my place. At least that one runs!

[LarrBeard]

"... there are "sick" guys like you ..."

Yep, that's us - just don't leave out "and twisted" when you describe us.

[TJones]

"... there are "sick" guys like you ..."

Yep, that's us - just don't leave out "and twisted" when you describe us.


Don’t forget the”obsessed” part either guy’s :cool::cool:

[bmorgil]

And the sick, twisted and obsessed have been known to infect others!

Your on your way now t, I am hoping those athletes of yours get real interested in that Jeep you are going to leave them. The beauty of this hobby is the way it waits for you.

[test1328]

Funny you say that about my boys, bm! The CJ is now in my shop which also houses their weight/workout facility. So it is crimping their style a bit. But, my oldest boy likes to show off his weight facility when he has friends over. Up until this point, he didn't really have much interest in what I was doing with the Jeep. But after his friends left, he let me know that his friends thought the Jeep was really cool and he started asking me more questions about it, what year it was, and what I was going to do with it. So...maybe I've planted a seed. Most teenagers these days have little interest in cars, I've found, at least not like when I was growing up. I think that our modern vehicles have become so reliable, when compared to the older vehicles, that they don't get a chance to see anyone work on anything any more, so they don't get a chance to learn much. I'm hoping maybe I can change that a bit and the boys will appreciate what goes into it once they see me working on it.

[test1328]

OK, for all you sick, twisted, and obsessed guys out there:
As I prepare to remove the engine from the vehicle, do you care to share any precautions or things to make sure I do or don't do before I start? Any typical stumbling blocks to look out for or special "tricks" you've used in problem areas? I'd certainly like to learn from your experience and not make any rookie mistakes if I don't have to. I'd also like to minimize banging my head against the wall during the process. This is one area where the Universal manual doesn't really seem to be of much help, from what I've been able to see. Thanks!

[TJones]

Test good for you and your boys!!!
Rule #1 you Will make mistakes no matter what any of us tell you, that’s a Jeep Thing!!!
Rule #2 you Will bang your head against the wall that’s another Jeep thing trust me!!!
Rule #3 post as many pictures and ask as many questions as you want cause that’s not really a Jeep thing but we would like to know for our own experiences so we don’t make mistakes and bang our heads against the wall :):)
As for your boys, it sounds like you’ve done a Great job leading by example so all I can say is keep it up and they will follow one day and get Sick, Twisted and Obsessed Promise!!!
Love your story!

[bmorgil]

At this point t you are at the crossroad. How far are you going? For instance if you intend to take the body off, it is pretty easy to do anything. If the body is staying on, the transfercase and transmission can be dropped out (wile supporting the back of the motor) all hooked together, by dropping them out together. The driveshafts are removed then the transmission can be unbolted from the motor. The cross-member can then be unbolted and you can slide the assembly back and drop the whole thing out. This leaves the motor in a pretty easy situation to pull. Or the radiator and even the grill can be removed and the engine can be unbolted from the transmission and slid forward.

The biggest mistake most make is they simply miss something that is still hooked up. Wires, accelerator linkage, fuel lines etc all need to be disconnected or you will find them as hoist yanks them apart! You can also disassemble it in the vehicle. You can get it torn all the way down to the block and crank. I would support the engine in the rear, pull the transfercase/transmission assembly first as a unit, support the engine in the rear, and pull the radiator, and pull it out assembled. From there it should come out without issue. Remove the flywheel before you put the motor on the stand. Tear down will be easier on the stand.

[51 CJ3]

The bad thing about dropping the transmission and transfer case together for me is they would not come out from under the Jeep while on my jack. My tires are 32 inch diameter. I am not sure how I will put them back. In my youth I would slide the part from the ground and onto my chest then bench press it into place but those days are long behind me. I may have to use a jack to raise the Jeep enough to roll the transmission jack loaded with the transfer case and transmission back under the frame.

[bmorgil]

Definitely need to get it in the air high enough to drop everything down and clear of the frame. The support for the rear of the engine needs to be suspended from the frame so you can lift the vehicle without disturbing the support for the rear of the motor. I use a heavy nylon cinch strap under the oil pan and around the frame and cinch it up tight. You can use chain or anything that allows you to support the rear of the engine.

I sure do remember "bench pressing" my share of transmissions! I cannot do that anymore (I could but it would be the last time).

[TJones]

Jeff,
The way I did mine was definitely get you a transmission jack, jack the rear end up and put it on jack stands with the rear tires about a foot off the floor and it should come right out.
I took the transmission shift tower off and cut a piece of cardboard to cover the top of the tranny, the 2 transfer case shift levers have to come out as well. Now that is the tricky part. loosen the locking set screw that holds the shifter pin in and slide the pin out mind you it will not come clear out due to the tub is in the way but it should come out enough to get one lever off at a time then push it back in and you should be ready to drop her out then.
I am like you guy's as far as bench pressing it, to old for that S""T anymore:):)

[51 CJ3]

I need to go look under my CJ3A. I don’t remember using anything to support the back of the motor when I pulled the transmission. It’s been sitting there untouched for quite a bit longer than my memory lasts.

[bmorgil]

If you don't support the back, it could break the motor mounts. Usually the block will tilt back and hit the firewall. That can smash the linkage bracket for the throttle.

[test1328]

Thanks for the info everyone. I can't say I have a solid game plan at the present but that's what I'm trying to develop now. I'll at least try to explain how I think I wanted to approach things.

First, I don't know exactly what all I will need to do to this vehicle. Ideally, it would be a full-restoration. But realistically, considering I have one kid in college and two more to go fairly soon, I don't think I can afford to to that. Therefore, I want to start on just what is needed to make the vehicle road worthy. The fact that I was able to get the engine started and get it moving again under its own power makes me think that there aren't a ton of major problems. The body definitely needs a lot of work to make it pristine, but maybe I don't need to do that right away. The hardtop also needs a lot of TLC, but again, that can wait. I'm not sure, but the body mounts might need replacing. Shocks need replacing. U-joints may need to be replaced.

I think the engine is the biggest issue at present, so that is where I'd like to start. Once the engine is out, it should be easier to look at all the other major drive train components and fix things that I see. I know the brakes need a complete overhaul, but that is relatively simple stuff.

So, for removing the engine, I would really like to avoid dropping the transmission and transfer case, if I can help it. I really don't think there is anything majorly wrong with those. Of course, I'll change the oil in them and replace gaskets if necessary, but hopefully no major rework. Therefore, my plan for removing the engine was going to be as follows:
1. Drain radiator of coolant
2. Drain engine oil
3. Remove front grill, radiator, shroud
4. Remove front fenders
5. One piece at a time, start unbolting, removing, etc. all components from engine
Here's where I'm a little sketchy on the details, so maybe this doesn't make much sense, so please let me know where I'm wrong or missing something.
6. Underneath the vehicle, start removing clutch and brake linkages as necessary
7. Supporting the transfer case/transmission, remove the cross-member (I'm not sure if I need to do this in order to unbolt the engine from the bell housing or not? If I don't need to do this, I probably won't. Maybe I can't reach the bolts without dropping the trans/transfer case some?)
8. Unbolt bell housing from engine
9. Unbolt engine from engine mounts
10. Remove engine from engine bay

Sounds simple, right??? HA!

[TJones]

T
I don’t really think that if your taking the engine out through the front you more than likely won’t have to take the tranny/transfer case cross member out, bmorgil and gmwillys will have to chime in on this bc I’ve never removed a 4 banger from mine it was a V6 and when I did all my work the tub was off the frame so it was wide open.
As far as the rest of the sequence you have described your pretty much spot on as far as the order goes except the clutch and brake assembly’s, if your not taking the tranny/transfer case out it will stay in place.
The clutch throw out bearing stays right on the tranny input shaft and the brake stays with the transfer case.
I’m thinking the clutch linkage pivots between the frame and the transfer case on 2 balls, another question for bmorgil and gmwillys.
Like ALL projects it’s more of a trial,error and knuckle busting but mostly trial and error but you’ll get it I’m sure of that!!!
And Simple yes:):)
That’s what makes you “Sick, Twisted and Obsessed”!!!!
Welcome to the Club Buddy.

[bmorgil]

Yes you can leave the transfercase/transmission cross member in. The bell housing stays in and bolted to the transmission. Unbolt it from the block. Follow your process it sounds good to me! TJ is correct the clutch linkage and brake will stay in place With the front fenders and grill off, you will find it a fairly easy procedure. With the front fenders off you will be in real good shape to clean up the "front end" of the Jeep. You can do an awfully lot with it striped down in front. It is a great idea. It will make it much easier to line up the input shaft of the transmission and the crankshaft pilot bushing when you nestle the rebuilt motor back in.

[test1328]

Awesome! Thanks for the quick feedback, guys.

Yeah, that's the plan, once the engine is out and being rebuilt, is to take care of what is accessible in front. Brakes, diff, and I also want to do some maintenance on the Ramsey PTO winch as well. Then, we'll look at the transmission and transfer case, get the fluids changed. And then move on to the rear end. I'm sure there will be lots of surprises in store.

[test1328]

Just a quick update. I started checking into Engine shops/machine shops that could do the work. At bmorgil's suggestion, I did contact All Pro Automotive Machine located in Denver. After talking to Steve Lewis, who owns and runs the business, I'm convinced that he is the guy. He only does 1970 and older engines and just does custom work for people who are restoring/rebuilding engines. He and his son do all the work and everything is done in-house. He said he prefers that his customers not take anything apart and that way he knows what he has when he starts the work. He will do all cleaning, machining, new parts, etc. He will balance the engine and even told me to bring him the new clutch so he can include that in the balancing. The only bad thing (for me) is the expense, which will run me about $4K. But, I think that is pretty much where I was expecting the price to be. Steve seems like a good guy and was easy to talk to. Once I get the engine out, it will be headed his way.

[TJones]

That’s sounds like a heck of good price t, especially knowing he does it all in house and it’s only him and his son working on it.
How long did he say he’d have it?

[gmwillys]

I agree with TJones. $4,000 sounds like a lot, but in the long run it is worth every penny.

[bmorgil]

All in here! That's a fair price for disassembly and reassembly. For your records and sanity in the future, ask him for the complete machining and build sheets (lists of everything that was done to re machine it and a list of the assembly checks). He shouldn't mind, it will add greatly to the value, to someone who understands the information. This is done on racing engines as a prerequisite. We know you are not building a racing engine, but to have that information is the proof of a good job.

[LarrBeard]

"The only bad thing (for me) is the expense, which will run me about $4K."

As a comparison, an F-134 rebuild in NE Indiana six years ago was $3,100, but that did not include balancing - just putting it together. There was no added charge for leaving out the head bolt under the carburetor.

It's not chump change, but he is a rebuilder who specializes in older engines and it does not appear to be an unreasonable amount.

[test1328]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I didn't really think the price was unreasonable for what was being asked, but it still makes you swallow hard.

Thanks also for the suggestion to get the machining and build sheets, bmorgil. I'll do that.

TJones, he didn't say how long it would take him, but I would expect a few months. I told him that I probably wouldn't have the engine out until December and he said that worked for him since he currently has 4 engines that he's working on and his schedule was starting to open up in December. I told him I really wasn't in a big hurry for it since I have a ton of other things to do to the vehicle and he said I was the type of customer he liked! HA! I'm sure he'll be done with it before I have a true need for it.

[TJones]

You just need to be diligent about checking in on it.
I took mine to my guy and I told him the same thing and he put it on the back burner for almost a year :(:(
But he finally got to it, got it done and put it on the Dyno and if you read my thread we had to start all over due to a bad rebuilt long block I bought from a company in Michigan.
You shouldn’t have any problems like I had but sometimes those engine builders get side tracked, they are like engineers or lawyers, they are a Breed of their own:):)
Good ones stand out like sore thumb, and from the sounds of the one you picked he’s right there with the best of them!!!!

[test1328]

TJ, yeah, you're right. I will stay on top of him, checking in with him periodically. These engine guys sound like the taxidermists that I have used. They lose sight of all the projects they have going and let things slide and before you know it, two years have gone by! HA!

I'm going to ask him to take pictures and send them to me. Not sure if that will work since he told me he is just now trying to get used to using his new cell phone...But, as we've discussed, I'm really interested to see how the engine looks before he starts working on it. We'll see if he can do that for me.

[test1328]

Hi Guys,
I finally had a chance to start tearing into my CJ5, trying to remove the engine. I removed the front fenders and the grill with the radiator. Here are few pics of what it looks like after that was done.

8903
8904
8905

I've started removing various parts from the engine, including the generator, starter, oil filter housing, and heater assembly. Still have a few more pieces to remove before I'm ready to try and move the engine.

A couple of questions that you might be able to help me with:
1. Where and how to attach chains to lift the engine out?
2. About how far forward to I need to move the engine before it is free and I can lift it out of the bay?
3. Will I need to support the transmission at all with a jack to prevent it from tipping toward the engine once I start removing the engine?
4. Is there any reason NOT to remove the fan blade? I don't want it to hang up and get bent during this operation.

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but thought I'd start with these. Thanks!

[51 CJ3]

Probably need something like this to hoist the engine out:
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nos-engine-lift-plate-kit-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine

[bmorgil]

A couple of questions that you might be able to help me with:
1. Where and how to attach chains to lift the engine out?
2. About how far forward to I need to move the engine before it is free and I can lift it out of the bay?
3. Will I need to support the transmission at all with a jack to prevent it from tipping toward the engine once I start removing the engine?
4. Is there any reason NOT to remove the fan blade? I don't want it to hang up and get bent during this operation.

You can attach the chains under two head studs or any large bolts you can get the chains under in the front and rear of the engine.
The engine needs to come free of the transmission input shaft in the clutch pressure plate bolted to the flywheel. About 2" should do it.
Definitely a good idea to support the transmission. All of the load will be on the single bolt holding the rear of the transfer case if you don't.
No problem pulling the fan blade.

Looking good man! You are definitely into it now.

[test1328]

Thanks, bmorgil! Great info.

[test1328]

Here's another question for you. In disconnecting the wiring in various places within the engine compartment, I've run across several of these cylindrical looking things. The cylinder I'm talking about is in the upper left portion of the attached. Are these just fusible links? I would assume so, but wasn't sure.

8910

Also, can you find replacements for these if you trace it to one that is blown?

[test1328]

Also, I've removed the distributor prior to removing the engine. However, when I deliver the engine to the guy who is rebuilding it for me, will he need the distributor? Will he need the plug wires? I wouldn't think he would try to start it, but I just don't know. Thanks!

[TJones]

[QUOTE=test1328;18352]Here's another question for you. In disconnecting the wiring in various places within the engine compartment, I've run across several of these cylindrical looking things. The cylinder I'm talking about is in the upper left portion of the attached. Are these just fusible links? I would assume so, but wasn't sure.

8910

Yes Sir those are fusible links, and yes you can get them at any O’riellys or Napa auto parts stores

[TJones]

Also, I've removed the distributor prior to removing the engine. However, when I deliver the engine to the guy who is rebuilding it for me, will he need the distributor? Will he need the plug wires? I wouldn't think he would try to start it, but I just don't know. Thanks!

More than likely he wouldn’t need the distributor or the wires T

[bmorgil]

It all depends on what your engine builder is doing for you. He should be able to deliver it to you read to run with the distributor wires and plugs all in. Usually all you need to do is fill it with oil. If you asked him to provide it to you ready to start, he would need the plug wires, coil, rebuilt carburetor all of it. You might ask him to provide it to you this way. It should be in time and ready to hook up and fire. He doesn't need to start it to have it ready to start. The timing can be set statically with the engine off. Here's an L-head almost ready to run, no carburetor.

Be sure to have the distributor checked out and rebuilt if needed.

[LarrBeard]

A comment from the peanut gallery:

I'd let him have the distributor so he can set static timing. Getting the distributor drive gear on the right tooth on the camshaft driving gear can sometimes make us use a lot of words from our shop vocabulary.

The coil, plugs and wire are "OK" but not a lot of work either way.

[gmwillys]

I agree on having the static timing set, and the oil pump set. It can give you headaches if the oil pump is installed, then trying to drop the distributor. The oil pump drive is offset, so it only goes on the distributor one way, so it would have to be pure luck to drop it in and everything meshes perfectly.

[TJones]

You guys are right on about the distributor, I guess I wasn’t thinking about how much of a PITA it is to get the timing and oil pump all lined up together it is on those motors.
My Buick motor is pretty simple to get them all synced up to slide together, get the timing right and a long screwdriver to turn the slot on the oil pump to just the right sweet spot to slide into the end of the distributor and your running.
That’s why you guys are called “Super Moderators” :):)

[test1328]

[QUOTE=test1328;18352]Here's another question for you. In disconnecting the wiring in various places within the engine compartment, I've run across several of these cylindrical looking things. The cylinder I'm talking about is in the upper left portion of the attached. Are these just fusible links? I would assume so, but wasn't sure.

8910

Yes Sir those are fusible links, and yes you can get them at any O’riellys or Napa auto parts stores

Thanks, TJ. Is there any way to figure out what Amp rating these fusible links are, sort of like fuses? I haven't tried to clean any up and I don't know that I actually have a problem one and need to replace it, I'm just wondering.

Thanks!

[test1328]

It all depends on what your engine builder is doing for you. He should be able to deliver it to you read to run with the distributor wires and plugs all in. Usually all you need to do is fill it with oil. If you asked him to provide it to you ready to start, he would need the plug wires, coil, rebuilt carburetor all of it. You might ask him to provide it to you this way. It should be in time and ready to hook up and fire. He doesn't need to start it to have it ready to start. The timing can be set statically with the engine off. Here's an L-head almost ready to run, no carburetor.

Be sure to have the distributor checked out and rebuilt if needed.

bmorgil, that L-head looks amazing! Very cool.

How do you check out the distributor to make sure it is good?

[test1328]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on including the distributor with the engine for the rebuild. I'll be sure to do that. Much appreciated.

[test1328]

I hate to keep asking questions, but I really do appreciate everyone's knowledge and expertise here. The information in invaluable. Don't know where else I would even dream of finding this information.

For the engine rebuild, I intend to have a new clutch installed and intend to buy one once I pull the engine and can confirm what size it needs to be. The engine builder will include the new clutch when he balances the engine. But that got me wondering again about what other parts on the engine I should be sure to tell the engine guy to be sure to replace. I'm sure he knows more than me on what might be able to be re-used and what absolutely should be replaced, but I'd like to be able to confirm that with him when I drop it off. So, can you tell me what other parts I should be sure to replace now, while they are working on it?

[bmorgil]

I would send the distributor here: http://www.willysdistributors.com/ Your engine guy should be able to tell you what you need as he goes. Peripherals like the starter, alternator, distributor and carburetor should all be new or rebuilt or checked out to be sure they are as good as your new engine. The water pump and the fuel pump should be replaced. The oil pump needs to be disassembled and checked out by your engine builder. The gasket is a paper shim and is very difficult to find. I had to make mine. I have a ton of gasket shim if anyone needs some PM me. It comes in several foot rolls. It sets the clearance for the pump. Because of this it is often favorable to buy a new Melling pump https://www.melling.com/parts-lookup/. If I had it to do over again I would do just that!

[test1328]

Thanks for the info and links. Much appreciated.

[LarrBeard]

BMorgil: You suggested:

https://www.melling.com/parts-lookup/.

I'm not in the market for a pump, but what sets these folks apart as a pump supplier? You seem to know where to find the good stuff .....

[bmorgil]

Melling was and still is the go to for engine oil pumps in a stock pump application. They supplied the majority if not all of the O.E's in the US car manufacturing market in the 40's, 50's 60's 70's, and even the 80's. They still supply a great deal of oil pumps to the industry. They are probably the only supplier making the older pumps anymore for replacement in the aftermarket. We used to buy their oil pumps for our engine parts program. They usually offer a high volume/pressure HP option.

[LarrBeard]

You know all of that good stuff - that's why "you da' man"

[bmorgil]

One thing I would suggest, do not balance the clutch assembly with the rotating engine assembly (crank, pistons and rods). The flywheel should have a neutral balance and the clutch should also be neutral balanced. They will not be perfect of course and you could balance all of them together with the rotating assembly and make it all perfect. If you ever have to change the clutch or flywheel however, the balance could now be thrown off. Most engine builders will zero out the rotating assembly and have the clutch and flywheel balanced separately and independent of each other. It is not uncommon to fry a clutch and ruin a flywheel. As long as you have a good neutral balance on the new clutch and flywheel you are all set. You can always get the clutch or flywheel balanced, it is a lot tougher to redo the crank!

[gmwillys]

Great advice to live by Bmorgil!

[test1328]

Thanks! Once again, great info for a newbie.

I'm picking up an engine hoist from a friend tomorrow and then I should be ready to pull the engine after I take out the last remaining bell housing bolts. Then I'll need to load it into my truck and get it down to the shop.

Any advice or things to look out for when setting the engine in the truck? Does it need to stay upright or can it be placed on its side (provided it is blocked up so nothing sticking out get bent or damaged)? I'll of course strap it down so it can't move.

[gmwillys]

I like to throw together a wood skid that the engine sits down into, keeping it upright. Then strap it down to prevent sliding around when that jerk pulls out in front of you, and you have to slam on the brakes.....Been there and had it happen. Just for reference a 727 Chrysler transmission tail shaft puts a perfect hole in the front of a Chevy 2500 bed when only held in place by a load bar and gravity.

The steel skid plate a fixed to the oil pan will give the engine a steady base, then strap it down to keep it secure, but I do not know for sure if the later 134 engines still have the skid plate like the earlier models did. Just use more straps then you think you may need.

[test1328]

OK. Sounds good. Yes, this 134 engine does have the fixed skid plate on the oil pan. I'll fab up some blocking to support the engine to keep it upright as you suggest.

Thanks!

[LarrBeard]

Kind of like this works ...

[bmorgil]

That would be perfect Larry!

[test1328]

Looks good to me!

[test1328]

I've been debating about whether to start a new thread on this project since we've kind of gotten through the restart info and what needs to be done to remove the engine...what do you think? Should I start a new one on the rebuilding process or keep everything on this same, original thread?

[test1328]

I am happy to report that I have successfully removed the engine!

8939

Now I have more questions, of course!

I want to get a new clutch to install. On the Kaiser Willys website they show a clutch kit for an 8 1/2" and one for a 9 1/4". I'm not sure where I actually measure to know which one I had. I measured the metallic ring inside the triangular looking outer part (pressure plate?) and I came up with about 9" as close as I can measure. Here are some pictures.

8940
8941
8942
8943

I think I should probably go with the 8 1/2", right?

Also, it looks like this is the original clutch? Do you agree? You don't see any value in trying to keep all the parts and reusing them, do you?

What about buying the whole 7 piece clutch kit vs. the 3 piece kit? The difference in price is only $25, so the price doesn't make much difference. Any recommendations?

[LarrBeard]

Keep the original thread - it's kind of like home now and we know where to find you.

[LarrBeard]

Yayyyy ...

"Auburn Clutch Company, Auburn, IN".

About 20 minutes north of Ft. Wayne.

https://willennar.pastperfectonline.com/photo/3E0F4D15-B8F9-438B-90A6-203876836372

Another northeast Indiana industry that doesn't exist any longer. It went from an independently owned company, then bought by Dana and then Eaton. It closed in 2021

https://www.fwbusiness.com/fwbusiness/article_f3edb06c-e10e-5f09-ab77-c170552eaaf2.html

I'd keep the "Auburn Clutch Co." pieces just for the history of them....

[gmwillys]

The 8 1/2" clutch is what you need. The measurement comes from the actual clutch disk itself, (the friction material that engages the flywheel). The clutch does look to be original from my vantage point. One thing to keep in mind though, the clutch lining material is made from asbestos, so don't blow out the bell housing with compressed air, or eat a sandwich while working on it. I would absolutely purchase the 7 piece kit, you'll thank yourself later when you put it all back together because then you'll have all your pieces there to make new. I would recommend that you take the fly wheel to your local machine shop to true the clutch surface, so you new clutch will seat the most effectively.

[test1328]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. I laughed about blowing out the bell housing with compressed air, gm. Take a look at this picture that shows what the bell housing looks like. It is so full of oil that I don't think I'm blowing out anything in there! I assume all of this oil is from a leaking rear seal in the engine.

8944

[bmorgil]

All the oil seems to blow back and end up in the bell housing no matter where it leaks from.

Its hard to tell if that's original but.... The Auburn Clutch Company was purchased by Spicer and became Spicer Clutch. Then Eaton purchased it and it became Eaton Clutch. Then they decided to close it down in 2020. Sad, the premier heavy truck clutch in its day. That could be the original or, it could be a rebuilt original. Good tip from gm, never put a new clutch disk on an old flywheel surface. A quick trip to the machine shop for a touch up surface grind is in order to do the job right.

[test1328]

Thanks for the tips. I'll be sure and address the surfacing of the flywheel with the engine rebuilder when I get there. If he isn't planning on doing it, then I'll make sure I take care of it.

[test1328]

Here's a closeup of the flywheel. Is there any reason that I shouldn't try to replace the ring gear on this now? Looks fairly worn to me.

8958

[test1328]

Just for the record, I thought I would show how I rigged up the engine for transport to the rebuilder. It is actually quite stable. I added another strap across the front of the engine that isn't shown in this picture, so the engine should not be able to shift towards the front or the back during transport.

8959

[bmorgil]

You have a good hold of it there tst! Cinch it down tight and drive careful! Slide it all the way up to the bulkhead just in case something causes a rapid stop. If that thing gets loose it will slide forward with some serious force. You don't want it to have a running start, it could end up inside the cab!

The ring gear on the flywheel is junk. Do not run that gear. Have the shop change out the gear for you when they resurface it. It isn't a difficult thing to do once you have done it a few times. Changing the gear does have its little quirks.

I had one bad spot on my flywheel ring gear and I thought well I'll clean it up and reuse it. I contemplated several times. I even have a new ring gear for it. I put it back together with the old one and the cleaned up spot. Low and behold the motor just loves to stop on that bad spot every time! That forces me into a "technique" for getting the gears to engage to start. To replace it now requires dropping the transmission, pulling the clutch, removing the flywheel and doing it right by replacing the worn gear.

[gmwillys]

I agree 100% with Bmorgil. Cutting corners causes issues almost every time.

[test1328]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm definitely not going to cut corners at this point. Don't want to leave anything to chance unless it is something the is easily replaced and fixed, i.e. easy access.

[LarrBeard]

We complain about how all of the little things we find make the project take longer and cost more - what we don't appreciate is how many headaches we avoided later on by fixing things right the first time.

I'd check the teeth on the Bendix as well - the Bendix and ring gear might not match; there are subtleties about tooth count on Bendix drives and ring gears that often get people into trouble.

You're doing well - carry on!

[test1328]

Thanks, LarrBeard. You're right about not appreciating how many problems you can avoid by doing things right the first time. I did look at the Bendix gear when I took the starter out and it is worn down as well, so I knew I would be replacing that before the starter goes on again. Funny thing about the Bendix is that I remember replacing that way back when I was 16, nearly 40 years ago. My Dad was impressed at the time that I could figure out what was wrong and then replace it and get things going again. Oh...to go back to those days!

[test1328]

I received the clutch kit yesterday, so I'll take the pertinent parts down with me when I deliver the motor so that they can balance everything with the clutch plate attached. I also ordered the flywheel ring gear so will be taking that down as well once I get it in. I'm not real familiar with everything on the clutch, though, so do I also need to take him the pilot bushing? Also, I'm assuming that the pressure plate has already been adjusted and is ready to go as received from KaiserWillys, right?

I suppose the next step for me in the process is to clean up the bell housing and get the new clutch fork, throwout bearing, sleeve, and return spring installed. Is there anything that I should be aware of before I start into that? It looks pretty straightforward, but since I've never done this, I want to know of any "gotchas". I'm also assuming that the throwout bearing is already lubed and doesn't need any additional grease, but what about greasing the shaft and/or sleeve before install? Thanks for your help on this!

[bmorgil]

I received the clutch kit yesterday, so I'll take the pertinent parts down with me when I deliver the motor so that they can balance everything with the clutch plate attached. I also ordered the flywheel ring gear so will be taking that down as well once I get it in. I'm not real familiar with everything on the clutch, though, so do I also need to take him the pilot bushing? Also, I'm assuming that the pressure plate has already been adjusted and is ready to go as received from KaiserWillys, right?

I suppose the next step for me in the process is to clean up the bell housing and get the new clutch fork, throw-out bearing, sleeve, and return spring installed. Is there anything that I should be aware of before I start into that? It looks pretty straightforward, but since I've never done this, I want to know of any "gotchas". I'm also assuming that the throwout bearing is already lubed and doesn't need any additional grease, but what about greasing the shaft and/or sleeve before install? Thanks for your help on this!

A small amount of grease on the input shaft, the pilot on the input, the input shaft spines and the front bearing retainer where the throw out bearing will be sliding. Not a lot you don't want grease slinging out into the clutch disc.You do not want the clutch plate attached to anything during balancing. It should already have a neutral balance. The flywheel can be balanced alone. Do not have him attach it to the crankshaft. The flywheel needs to have a neutral balance also. Just take the flywheel and new ring gear to him, also the pilot bushing to him, not the clutch assembly. He will need to replace the pilot bushing in the flywheel. There isn't an adjustment to the pressure plate. The clutch adjustment is performed in the linkage.

[test1328]

Thanks, bmorgil. I suppose I didn't explain myself well enough regarding the pressure plate adjustment. What I was meaning was that in the manual they go into great detail about adjusting the spacing between the spring levers and the plate, with a special gauge and using a spacer that is 0.310" thick (if i remember correctly). That is what I was getting at. I'm assuming that has already been done and I don't need to try to do that adjustment.

[bmorgil]

Yes already been done. You should be all set.

[LarrBeard]

"Take a look at this picture that shows what the bell housing looks like."

When we pulled the truck out of the barn, it smelled like mouse pee. The start of the restoration was to pull out the seats and we sprayed the inside of the cab with Febreze (it takes the stink off just about anything). We let it set for a weekend.

Well, it didn't take the mouse smell away, but we started taking things apart and just endured it. We pulled the doghouse and radiator, then the engine. When we pulled engine, we found that the bell housing was packed solidly (like a bale of straw) with hay and straw and the little devils had made themselves a mouse apartment complex in the bell housing.

Oil and grease would have been a better problem.....

[test1328]

"Take a look at this picture that shows what the bell housing looks like."

When we pulled the truck out of the barn, it smelled like mouse pee. The start of the restoration was to pull out the seats and we sprayed the inside of the cab with Febreze (it takes the stink off just about anything). We let it set for a weekend.

Well, it didn't take the mouse smell away, but we started taking things apart and just endured it. We pulled the doghouse and radiator, then the engine. When we pulled engine, we found that the bell housing was packed solidly (like a bale of straw) with hay and straw and the little devils had made themselves a mouse apartment complex in the bell housing.

Oil and grease would have been a better problem.....

HA! Yes, I agree! Oil and grease would definitely be better. I did take a closer look at the bell housing a few days ago and it doesn't appear to be bad at all. Should clean right up, I think.

[test1328]

Got my engine delivered to the rebuilder a week ago on 12/27. Said is should take about 8 weeks.

I've started to rebuild the carb in the meantime and have it all taken apart and ready to clean. Any recommendations on a cleaning solution to use for the carb?

[bmorgil]

There are a few products out there specifically for soaking. I use a large tank ultrasonic, heated and filled with MC-3. They come out like brand new.

https://www.sonicsonline.com/collections/ultrasonic-cleaning-solutions/products/mc-3-metal-cleaner

[test1328]

Quick question, guys. I am in the process of cleaning and rebuilding the carburetor and got to wondering about lubrication for the various parts that need to rotate, like the rods that the butterfly valves rotate on and the outer linkages and springs that are outside of the carb. I'm fairly certain I don't need any lubrication on the interior where the gas is located, but was wondering if these other locations might benefit from a drop of oil in discrete locations. Thanks!

[test1328]

No one has an opinion?

[51 CJ3]

If I did lube those parts I would use some kind of dry lube. Oil and/or grease attracts dirt which will wear those parts out faster.

[LarrBeard]

I've never seen any lube instructions for a carburetor....

Places where a shaft goes through a sleeve or bushing could take a dob of grease - but there is enough gas around the carb that just about anything will get washed away in fairly short order.

[gmwillys]

I've had some carbs that were pretty crusty. I use PB Blaster on sticky spots, and throttle shaft. No harm would come if some ends up down the carb.

[bmorgil]

A light oiling on moving parts like the throttle shaft wouldn't hurt, but as Larry points out its not required. I wouldn't put a lot of lube anywhere as it can gum up and collect dirt. Like Larry said lube isn't going to stick around long anywhere there is gas. The highest wear point on the carb is the throttle shaft. Because of this it is running on bushings that though they will eventually wear, don't require lubrication. Clean is the best thing you can do. Dirt leads to abrasion and abrasion leads to wear. If the carb is already crusty, PB Blaster or similar products can keep you going like gm stated.

[test1328]

Much appreciated input, guys. I've never seen anything talking about lube for the carburetor either, but with my carb rebuild, a lot of the parts that move feel dry. I know gas will lubricate some of these locations, but not all, so was just a thought running through my head. Thanks again.

[LarrBeard]

It was a good question, honestly asked and answered. Now a whole bunch of us know a little more about Jeeps. That's how we learn.

[test1328]

Finally got the carburetor rebuilt and back together. Here is a before and some after photos. Took me until I was almost done with it to realize it was a 938SD. I would have thought it would be more prominently marked and was looking in the obvious locations. Now I know!

Also, a few other notes: Some of the new parts included in the kit were quite a bit different from the originals. Fortunately, all of the old parts looked pretty good, so on the ones that were significantly different, I just reused the old parts. The rubber on the accelerator pump still looked OK, but I went ahead and used the new one even though the spring keeper locations on the primary shaft were in slightly different locations. The check they tell you to do for the accelerator pump adjustment came out just fine, so I believe I should be OK. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I don't have trouble and have to take this apart again!

Before
9100

After
9101

9102

9103

[bmorgil]

Looks just right! I don't think you would have any trouble going after it again.

[test1328]

Hey guys, been a while!
I've slowly been going through things and am working on the steering now. The gear box seems to be leaking so I thought I would take that out and put a new seal on it. The steering has always been pretty good, so I don't anticipate there being too much wrong, but figured I'd find out in any case. I took the steering drag link apart and cleaned everything up and there were no problems that I could see there. I think all is good, although I would like to get new dust covers, front and back. I don't see that Kaiser Willys sells just the dust covers. Does anyone know if you can buy just the dust covers from them? I don't think I need to buy the whole repair kit and would hate to buy that just for the dust covers. Lemme know what you think?

Second question is that in removing the gear box, do I really need to remove the steering wheel? Can't seem to get a straight answer from the videos on You Tube. Most of the videos show them removing the steering wheel, but then don't show the whole steering tube that the wheel attaches to coming out? Any guidance there? For what it is worth, I can't get the steering wheel off. I hate to buy a $90 steering wheel puller from KW that I'll use one time in my life. Any easy ways to get it off other than buy the puller? I know there is a bearing in there by the steering wheel so since I'm working on it, it would be nice to replace that bearing, thus trying to remove the steering wheel.

Thanks!

[bmorgil]

I don't think you can get just the dust covers. However they are soft plugs the same as used in engines. Take some measurements and head to the local old school parts store. They should be able to come up with the plugs you need. If you have an old one it will help tremendously at the parts counter.

The steering wheel will need to come off. The shaft cover needs to be removed to get the box apart. You wont be able to get the assembly out of the vehicle. The bearing under the wheel usually needs at least a good dab of grease. It can be brutally difficult to remove especially if the horn button has been missing and water has been allowed to accumulate at the nut. The shaft can become one with the wheel hub. A lot of soaking with penetrating oil for many days might help. The pullers that support the wheel hub are essential. The wheel will crack if you put any stress anywhere other than directly under the hub. I had to cut mine off. No matter what it wasn't coming off. I have seen some people have good success and others like me not so much. I think gmwillys was able to pull a few. Maybe he has a trick.

[gmwillys]

PB Blaster or Kroil, a plumbers propane torch and many cycles, (lube, heat , lube, heat, repeat). apply heat to the steering wheel sleeve without melting the plastic of the steering wheel itself. A tip is to use several layers of aluminum foil as a heat barrier against the plastic of the wheel. Then for a puller, a bearing separator plate and a good two bolt puller works best. Apply pressure while heating and lube, then smack the nut with a hammer lightly to shock the steel to aid in separating the wheel from the shaft. It is important to losen the nut to the top of the threads of the steering shaft to protect the threads.



https://www.amazon.com/OrionMotorTech-Bearing-5-Ton-Capacity-Separator-Splitter/dp/B07GSM7N37

[test1328]

Thanks, guys! I appreciate your advice. I'll keep after it.

[bmorgil]

A cheap heat gun from China Freight can be real good here. It will keep you from melting the center of the wheel where the hob is molded in if you are not comfortable using a torch.

[51 CJ3]

Just stuff rattling around my brain this morning but wouldn’t dry ice applied to the shaft accomplish about the same result as heat to the hub without the risk of melting parts. This assumes dry ice is easily available, it’s as rare as hens teeth here.

[gmwillys]

Same here. If we were closer to the coast, then you can find dry ice. I use heat because I can direct the flame more accurately then trying to shrink the center shaft with ice. You do take the chance of buggering up the plastic on the wheel, but a little patience and care, it will work out. There is always more than one way to skin a goat, so if you try the dry ice route (and can obtain some), please post your results.

[bmorgil]

If you could get the dry ice on the shaft (male portion) and not the hub (female portion) of the assembly it would have the same effect. The idea with the heat is as follows. The heat on the hub causes it to expand ever so slightly. This can and usually does, break the bond that forms as the two pieces rust and swell together. The best way to free the hub when frozen to the shaft would be to heat the hub as gm suggests, and then use wax. Heat the hub up hot, and while it is hot press the wax against the shaft and hub spline interface. The heated parts will draw the wax into the splines and hopefully draw right in. The heat and wax method has been used by mechanics for many many years. I have used that method so many times I cant count. It works best when you get things very hot. The wax will smoke and melt and draw in to the splines. I use this method on engine blocks that have various bolts and threaded devices frozen in place by years of corrosion.

I was not able to get mine to come free. I eventually destroyed the wheel until the hub was fully exposed. Even then I could not get it apart! I'll admit I never had anything give me that much trouble. In the end a cutting wheel on a Dremell was used to cut the hub and split it open with a chisel. Fortunately a nice new steering wheel was not to expensive.

[TJones]

I will tell you what works for me on freezing waterline's to repair them is a propane bottle. You have to be VERY careful because liquid propane will burn/freeze body parts INSTANLEY at -44 degrees F.
I take a old propane bottle adapter with a hose on it and cut the hose about 4-5' long the have someone hold the bottle upside down and put the hose over what you want to freeze up and open the valve slowly until liquid propane stars to dribble out.
It will freeze a 2" copper waterline (full of running water) solid in about 2 minutes.
Just a thought but you really need to be careful, it will either burn you real bad or freeze you up.
That's my Alabama Hillbilly/Shade Tree Mechanic coming out :):)

[51 CJ3]

I am trying to get a bearing (hub) out of an aluminum knuckle. I cannot for the life of me figure out why any engineer would think it’s a good idea to put untreated steel inside untreated aluminum. If the aluminum gets above 500 degrees it’s ruined. New knuckle is about $500 but Ford has them locked up on a recall related VIN verification. I have been trying to get one ordered for a week. I am on my way out to cut the flange off the hub so I can remove the brake shield to give me access to use the 20 ton press. The Willys is so much easier.

[gmwillys]

Bearing races can be removed by running a bead of weld around the inside of the race, but of course it won't help on a bearing unit like your knuckle. The weld works well with an exposed race. In your case, I would put the whole unit in the freezer overnight, then heat the aluminum housing quickly. The steel bearing will hold the cold, but the aluminum will heat quickly, releasing the bearing. Too much force with a press can distort the housing.

[51 CJ3]

Thanks for the idea. I didn’t get to try the press because I didn’t have enough pieces the right size and shape to brace and press. I talked to the dealer again this afternoon. He finally got permission from Ford to order the knuckle but no ETA yet. Wife is getting antsy without her car so I hope it is on the way. Sorry for the thread drift.

[test1328]

Thanks for the discussion, guys. I don't have ready access to dry ice, but I work a lot with Liquid Nitrogen and Liquid Helium, so if I wanted, I could use the LN2 to cool things down quite rapidly. The thought that runs through my head there is that the LN2 will inevitably get on the steering wheel hub and that cold, combined with a 60 year old plastic, the plastic could just split right before my eyes and ruin it before I start. But don't think the thought hasn't crossed my mind. I think I'll try the heat and cool and heat and wax method first and see what happens.

[test1328]

Well, I was ordering from KW anyways, so ordered their steering wheel puller and thought I would provide a report on it. Once I received it, I realized why it costs what it does. It is well fabricated, with welded parts that fit very well. The welds are not perfect by any means, but more than adequate and I suppose if the welds were great, the part would cost even more. Comes with a cap that threads onto the steering shaft, so that the center bolt of the puller can bear on the cap to react the load. I've been soaking the steering shaft with penetrating oil off and on for over a week in the hopes that it would help to remove it. Received the puller on Friday and finally had a chance to try it yesterday. Took me longer to put the puller together and get it wrapped around the steering tube than it did to actually remove the wheel. Slick as a whistle! I was fortunate that it wasn't really very rusty in there but it did really pop when it came loose, so I know there was quite a bit of force required to get it moving. And, I'm happy that I can reuse the original steering wheel, even though it has several cracks (gaps) on the spokes from shrinkage and CTE mismatch over the years. Those gaps in the spokes hold some memories for me, so I'd hate to lose those.

In any case, I was then able to remove the steering gear box, so will tear into that a little later when I have a chance. I did read in one of the threads on here about the proper lube to use for the gear box. However, my question on that is, should I fill (pack) the box with the lube or just make sure everything is covered well? Also, does anyone have an idea of how much is required? Is just one bottle enough? Thanks!

[51 CJ3]

Thanks for the review of the puller. It’s also good to hear you got the steering wheel off without damaging anything.

[gmwillys]

I may need to invest in one of their pullers as well. Thank you for the review!

[LarrBeard]

Now we know where to go to borrow a steering wheel puller ... :)

[test1328]

Funny, that was what I was going to say! If anyone needs it, I'd be happy to let them borrow it. No sense in everyone buying one.

[bmorgil]

Good news on the puller and the success. gmwillys repairs the cracks in the wheel. He has a great method.

One bottle of lube fills the box. You fill it till it comes out of the fill hole.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2442-Closed-Knuckle-and-Steering-Box-Lubrication

https://www.ecklers.com/champion-00-manual-steering-box-grease-57-376792-1.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplp57-376792-1&sc_intid=57-376792-1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwt4X8BRCPARIsABmcnOphnna25XoiCzQVr1Lm DvFP2DtiqGDdoxM5fPQOKu1sNu-EvWqs6cQaAlOeEALw_wcB

[gmwillys]

If you have separation in the plastic on your steering wheel, and wish to fix some,(some wheels hold family history and shouldn't be messed with). I use two part metal repair like JB Weld. Clean the gap and the steel ring as best you can. Form the epoxy to the shape of the gap, with a rough form of the finger contour on the back side. After it sets, sand it till it blends into the original plastic. I haven't found a forever paint or dye that will makes a wheel look 100 percent. But the wheel will look good for a while.

[test1328]

Thanks for the info, guys. Much appreciated. I ordered the lube. I haven't taken things apart yet, so not sure what all I'll find in the gear box, but I'm expecting it to be in pretty good shape. I appreciate the info on repairing the wheel as well, but I think I'll leave them there for nostalgia purposes.

One other thing, just a question. When I removed the steering wheel, I of course found the spring and when that was removed, the snap or retaining ring below it was there, but it was loose. It was fairly easy to remove it. Should that ring be tighter and snap into place? What exactly is it holding? Thanks.

[bmorgil]

The snap ring is there to prevent the bearing from traveling down the shaft. It doesn't need to be tight but I would replace it. It is the stop for the bearing. The steering shaft and lever assembly end play is where they wear. If the steering shaft and lever assembly is worn (item 36 in service manual) at the high point, the center of travel to pad, the steering will always have a lot of play. This is the spot where the steering wheel is dead center and spends most of the time. When steering system and king pin bearings begin to get worn and sloppy and the wheel is wiggling back and forth, the centering high spot gets badly worn. It requires a new shaft to fix it but, well worth the effort if it is worn. Its the main reason for slop in the wheel right to left. You should check it before you disassemble it. The bushings may or may not need to be replaced and reamed. Usually they hold up much better than the centering point on the shaft.

The box needs to be adjusted, shimmed and the bearings set. The service manual is a great resource for the procedure.

[test1328]

OK. Got back on the steering gear box and got it torn apart. As I suspected, everything internal looked amazingly good. Nothing worn that I can see, bearings and bushings all look good. I'll replace the sector shaft oil seal, just because. But, I do have some questions.
1. Is there no oil seal at the top, where the top cover bolts to the housing? It appears that there is nothing (except gravity) to keep the oil from running past the upper worm gear bearings. I don't see a seal in the diagrams or in the parts list on KW.
2. Regarding that top cover, with the shim pack. The shims I removed were in perfect condition. Can I not re-use these or should I order the new shim pack?
3. I plan on replacing the upper steering column bearing, although I haven't taken it out yet. The snap ring is there and is tight (there was another ring on top of the bearing that the spring sat on that was loose, which is what I saw previously). I don't see a listing on KW to buy a new snap ring for this location. Is this something I can buy elsewhere?

Thanks!

[test1328]

Just bumping this up in case you missed it.

[bmorgil]

Good bump!

No oil seal at the top.

You should check the load to ensure the correct shim pack. Chances are it will need a little more drag.

I think you might be looking at part of the bearing. The bearing has a snap ring in it. It is an assembly.

[test1328]

Thank you for answering my questions! Just things that run through my mind during the week...

[test1328]

Well, I believe I have the steering box back together and all went well. The gear box is good to go. Only question I have now is once I install it back into the vehicle, how best to fill the gear box with that thick 00 gear lube? The fill hole is pretty small on it. Does anyone have any tips or tricks for filling it up?

[test1328]

I'm also going to make sure all the other steering linkages are good to go. I think all is in good shape, except for the rubber tie rod dust boots, which I assume need to be replaced. Any other tips or things to look for on the rest of the steering?

[bmorgil]

What lube do you have? Usually you can get it in a squeeze bottle with a trim to fit top. Just trim it down to where it fits in the fill hole. Hold it off a little so air can escape. Also a large veterinary syringe always works well. You can get them at a place that sells livestock supplies.

[gmwillys]

Depending on your intended use, the dust boots on the tie rod ends can be serviceable as is. Just keep the rod end greased and it will keep most of the dirt out. In short I would not tear apart a perfectly good tie rod end just to replace the boot unless you are looking for a show quality restoration. On our weekly driver '46 Heep, the boots are there in a physical sense, but don't poke at them or they might crumble off.

The syringe is a great tip for filling or topping off fluids. Often times you can sneak them into places where you can't fit a bottle. You tend to have more control of the fluid being transferred because you can stop the injection, where a pump or squeeze bottle you can make a mess in a hurry.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the guidance. I do have the "00" heavy gear lube that you recommended for the steering gear box that is in the squeeze bottle. I just wasn't sure how well I'd be able to get that bottle nipple to match the small hole. I do like the idea of the veterinary syringe, though, so I'll see if I can pick one of those up.

Also, thanks for the tip on the tie rod end boots. I haven't spent any time inspecting them just yet. I'm not going for show room quality, but I want to try and hit everything on the front end now while I've got the engine out so that I don't have to go back after I reinstall it, when access is that much harder. I'll look at the boots closely and make sure they are still doing their jobs before I start taking things apart. The little I've looked and messed around with the steering linkage now that the connecting rod is off, everything seems to move quite easily, so I don't think there is much wrong.

[test1328]

It's been a while guys. Work and coaching baseball has greatly slowed my progress, but I'm still after it.

I did finally talk to my engine builder at All Pro Engines. Apparently, they have been severely hampered by the availability of parts and supply chain issues. He says they finally have all the parts in and should have things wrapped up fairly soon. Considering that it has been almost 6 months since I dropped it off to them, I surely hope so! However, it sounds like he's doing everything right, which is what is most important to me. I asked about the one cylinder that was bad (had zero compression) and he said that the piston was broke. When I asked what exactly that meant, he said that the top ring was fine but that half the piston was missing between the 2nd and 3rd ring. He said he has seen this before.

Still working on getting the Master Cylinder removed so I can rebuild it. With the PTO drive shaft to the winch in the way, it is taking me a bit more effort to get that removed. I did finally get the drive shaft out, so it shouldn't be too much more effort to get the MC out and repaired. I have the Steering gear box completed but want to get the MC taken care of before I reinstall that.

[bmorgil]

Good to hear its still moving along. It seems like everything is at the mercy of the "Global Supply Chain Issue"! I hope you get the time to prep the engine bay for that like new motor. Coaching baseball is the best time of your life, for sure savor it.

[test1328]

Thanks! We sure do enjoy baseball. I've got two boys who play on the school Varsity baseball team and I'm an assistant coach. The HS season is over now, so I can relax a bit. The boys' summer club teams started playing games today, so at least I can just go watch them and not have to coach. I've only got two more years before both boys are out of school, so I'm doing my best to enjoy the ride while it lasts!

[gmwillys]

Time flies by in just a blink of an eye. My eldest will be a senior in high school this coming school year. Hard to believe that it seems like just yesterday she was toddling around and eating Cheerios.

[bmorgil]

Time flies for sure! Kids and those Cheerios. The perfect pacifier.

[LarrBeard]

Enjoy the time with the boys. The Jeep can wait - they can't. I'm very lucky - my kids and grandkids are past the coaching stage, but I've ended up as coach for a Junior High Power Shooting Team. Real rifles, not fancy air guns. I have five kids and they keep me hopping. I'm almost 78, but they make me feel either 65 or 100 depending on the day.

Here is a picture of my "Glamour Girls" and in case you wonder if they can shoot - here is a target the little blonde assassin shot at 200 yards, slow fire prone ---fifteen shots, all in the 10-ring with 7X.

[test1328]

That's awesome, Larrbeard! You're lucky to be able to spend that quality time with your grandkids. And the target shows that you've taught her well!

I'm a shooter myself, but have only ever shot a few competitive matches so that I could buy a Garand from the CMP. That was years ago. I'm more of a hunter, but I sure do like to shoot and reload. My kids (1 daughter and 2 boys) all shoot, but my daughter isn't too into it and my boys would rather play baseball and other sports than shoot. My oldest boy does love to hunt, so at least I have him to go with me most times. Here's a quick pic of his first antelope buck in 2018. He's grown up quite a bit since then and helped me pack an elk out a few years ago.

9485

[bmorgil]

You two are providing what a lot of parents are missing now-a-days. There is a lot of life to live outside, without a "smart" phone. Interesting how stupid a "smart" phone can make someone.

[test1328]

Well, thought I would get back to you folks after not having much to say for quite awhile. Summer, baseball, helping my senior folks out, all added up to little progress on the Jeep. I'm hoping to make a bit more headway in the near future.

Currently, I've rebuilt the Master Cylinder as well as the steering gear box. Had to buy a new outer steering column tube since the old one had a hole worn through it from one of the pedals rubbing on it for so long. I've cleaned up the area where these two mount to the frame and need to get it prepped for primer/paint before I reinstall these items. I want to get them installed before I get the engine put back in since they are so hard to access otherwise.

I am expecting my engine back from the rebuilder any day. It was mostly done the last time I stopped over. I dropped off the Oil filter housing and new hoses and new filter so he can prime the engine before he finishes up. Hopefully within a week or so I'll have it back. It has now been over a year since I dropped it off. The supply chain has really messed up his production. Constantly waiting for parts. He did show me the cracked camshaft thrust plate that he found. He had just got in the new one when I was over there.

I also took my radiator and heater core into a Radiator Repair shop and the guy did a great job in repairing all the small pin-hole leaks he found and pressure testing everything. He also painted the radiator. I didn't have him straighten all the fins and make it show room ready since I'm not going for a complete restoration off the show room floor look. A-1 Radiator off of Federal Blvd. in Denver is the place.

I do have a question for you guys, though. I want to open up the front diff and take a look and make sure all is good before I put the engine back in and wanted to know what to look for? I do know that I need to replace the pinion shaft oil seal since it appears to be leaking. Do you guys also put in a new pinion seal gasket at the same time? Primarily, I want to know what I should check once I get the cover off to make sure all is good before I button it back up. I don't want to take things apart that don't need to be taken apart, but I also don't want to leave something questionable inside while I have things open. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

[test1328]

One other question that I wanted to run by you: The front bumper on the passenger side is bent inward, toward the front right tire. It is maybe at a 20-30 degree angle. I've been wondering how I'm going to straighten this out? Do you think if I heat it enough with a torch that I could just easily bend it back straight? If I do that, I suppose that it would anneal the steel and wouldn't be as strong in that location anymore. But, does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? I can't see that I can remove the front bumper without drilling out rivets, which I certainly don't want to do. Any other thoughts on how I could get this bumper straightened out? Thanks!

[bmorgil]

It sounds like you are making great progress! Nice find on the radiator shop. gmwillys or one of the guys who do metal work will have some thoughts on the bumper I am sure.

On the axle, take the cover off the axle and drain the lube. Loosen all the bolts but the top ones and then slowly loosen the top while you break the bottom loose. You want to try to see what comes out first. If there is a lot of water, that will be the first thing out. Look at the condition of the lube for contaminate. Take a good look at the teeth on the ring gear. Here is a link to a Spicer failure analysis manual https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2326-Spicer-Service-Manual-Failure-Analysis-AXSM-0020-Dec-2015 This should be helpful. I would inspect the ring gear and pinion backlash. If it is out of specification by more than a few thousandths of an inch, You may want to tear it down and put in new bearings. If the front seal is being replaced and the cover is off, you aren't far from a full tear down.

[51 CJ3]

Check the yoke where the pinion seal rides. If the yoke is grooved then a new seal won’t help the leak. The yoke can be repaired with a sleeve or replaced.

[LarrBeard]

"Here is a link to a Spicer failure analysis manual"

There are some gruesome pictures in there. The ones with pictures of water damage and spalling from poor lube are typical of what will be found in old Jeep gearboxes and differentials -- but people do manage to twist shafts and splines off!

[test1328]

Thanks, guys, that's helpful.

Yeah, still looking for input/ideas on the bumper.

[TJones]

One other question that I wanted to run by you: The front bumper on the passenger side is bent inward, toward the front right tire. It is maybe at a 20-30 degree angle. I've been wondering how I'm going to straighten this out? Do you think if I heat it enough with a torch that I could just easily bend it back straight? If I do that, I suppose that it would anneal the steel and wouldn't be as strong in that location anymore. But, does that really matter in the grand scheme of things? I can't see that I can remove the front bumper without drilling out rivets, which I certainly don't want to do. Any other thoughts on how I could get this bumper straightened out? Thanks!

I would try and heat it up with a torch and straighten it out first before I’d drill the rivets out.
Just my thoughts for what that’s worth:rolleyes:

[test1328]

Thanks, T. I couldn't think of a better way. I thought about just applying force with a Hi-Lift jack or something, but that seemed a bit dangerous and it might not bend where I want it to bend.

[gmwillys]

A combination of heat and the high lifter farm jack will bring your bumper to straight without removing the rivets.

[test1328]

Thanks, gm!

[test1328]

Was able to open up the front diff this weekend. There was some water in there, maybe a couple of tablespoons, which leaked out first. What came spilling out was still viscous and flowed, but didn't look good at all. I suppose it wasn't so not bad for having sat in there for over 30 years. All the gears look good and intact, although I haven't inspected everything closely just yet. The good thing is that there is nothing obvious wrong. There was some rust on the top inside corner of the cover, but it cleaned up fairly well, as did the rest of the cover.

So, that brings me to my next conundrum, which is I'd like to not have to take everything apart (assuming I find nothing wrong). However, as I mentioned previously, I believe I need to change out the pinion oil seal since there are signs that it is leaking. The question is, is there anyway to change out the pinion seal without taking everything apart in the differential? I don't think there is, but thought I'd ask anyways. I'm concerned about properly setting up the ring and pinion correctly after putting everything back in and making sure the R&P are bearing properly on one another. On the one hand, I hate to tear it all apart, but on the other hand, I think it would be foolish to not check out the bearings and axle seals while I have it open.

Hear are some photos.
10048
10049
10050
10051
10052

[bmorgil]

To change the front seal you only need to remove the front yoke. You will not change anything in the set up on a Dana axle by removing the yoke. Remove the yoke and carefully pry out the old seal, inspect the yoke for wear and repair it or replace it if needed. Reinstall the yoke with a new seal and nut, and torque it to specification.

The lube looks plain awful. Lets hope it never ran like that. The teeth on the ring gear look OK. You could clean it out well and hope for the best. Rinse it out with some low odor mineral spirits well. Blow it out and let it dry out. Fill it back up and pray the bearings are still alive. Take it for a ride. If it howls, growls and gets hot, the bearings are not good anymore.

Or, try your hand at rebuilding the Dana 25. With the service manual and the proper tools, you can effectively re-bearing a Dana axle taking care with the original shims, carrier and ring and pinion.

[gmwillys]

The lube looks terrible, but the gears look good. In my mind, if you clean out all the gunk, and then turn the pinion yoke, if you don't hear any bearing noise, run it. That won't 100% guarantee the diff is good, but the chances of being more better than rebuild fodder.

[bmorgil]

Be sure to check the backlash. This will be a big indication on the general condition of things. Lubricate the bearings behind the yoke and in the carrier after you clean it out and before you rotate anything. Once you have it all cleaned up and rotating with some lube on the bearings, check the backlash. You don't want to skip this step.

And as gm said, if its making grinding/scraping bearing noise when you rotate it, you are all done testing!

[test1328]

Thanks, guys! I really appreciate your comments and advice.

[test1328]

Well, got the LF brake drum off and oil starts dripping out as soon as I took the hubs off. It appeared that the seal in the drum had failed. I don't have calipers big enough but the drum appears to be over the size limit, so guess I'll be replacing the drums. It appears that either the grease/lube in the steering knuckle has either liquefied or else someone put oil in it instead of the correct lubricant. The wheel bearings seem to be fine, although I haven't examined them closely just yet. I just got to the point of removing the brake backing plate, so haven't gotten to the king pins yet. Who knows what I'll find in there. I was thinking about just replacing the wheel bearings but what do you think of retaining the old ones if they appear and feel fine? Also, I know it's been discussed previously, but can you tell me what is the correct lube for the steering knuckles? Can I buy it or do I have to "make it" myself like I've seen on some of the Youtube channels? It isn't the same lube as for the steering gear box is it? Even that seems a little lower viscosity than what it should be.

Thanks!

[bmorgil]

If they feel good and they look good, you certainly can use them. Just keep them running on the same races, don't mix them up.

The lube:
https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2442-Closed-Knuckle-and-Steering-Box-Lubrication

[test1328]

Thanks, BM. So, if I understand what you said in the other lube thread, if I go with a sealed U-joint like the SPICER sealed Lifetime non re-lubeable 5-760X at the knuckles, I wouldn't need to fill the knuckle with the heavy lube and you would just leave that dry, with the exception of wetting the felt seals with ATF? Is that correct? That sounds like the better solution to me.

[bmorgil]

Yes. If you want to run it dry, you need to use a sealed U-Joint and you need to pack the king pin bearings with wheel bearing grease. Depending on how you use it, periodically re-pack the king pin bearings when you repack the wheel bearings. And a little ATF on the felt seal from time to time.

[test1328]

Can anyone tell me where this is supposed to go? It's just a spacer, I think. I believe it either sits between the master cylinder and the frame or the steering gear box and frame, but I'm not sure. I only seem to have one. It must have stayed attached to the frame and then fell off and I didn't see where it was originally. Thanks for the help.


10075

[bmorgil]

That looks like a fender shim. Its in too good of shape though.

[gmwillys]

It is a fender shim, but none are called out for the brake master cylinder or the steering gear. It doesn't look like it had been clamped between anything, as Bmorgil said, it's way too clean. Odd things turn up when working on a Willys. I would say that not much surprises me, but then that becomes a challenge to the Heep gods.

[test1328]

Thanks, guys. It very well could be a fender shim that just ended up on the floor after I've moved the fenders around in my shop so many times I can't count. I sure don't know where it came from. I did clean it up first for the picture.

[test1328]

I am continuing to tear the front end apart and started in on one of the locking hubs. See the pictures here:

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Does anyone have any experience with these? Overall, things are in good shape. However, I'd like to replace the O-ring shown in the third photo, if possible, since it does have some slight damage. However, it doesn't look like a standard O-ring, but more like a square-sided O-ring (if that makes sense?). I'm not sure I could find one like this. Any ideas?

Also, should I just make sure the bearings, pins, etc. are greased up well when I put it back together? Any other recommendations?

Thanks!

[gmwillys]

There are a few options on where to purchase the service kit, i.e. Autozone or Amazon etc. If the O-rings in the kit are not square enough, stop by your local farm or industrial equipment dealer that repairs hydraulic cylinders. They will have the square O-rings for cheap. The gaskets can be made out of gasket material fairly easily. The snap rings and hardware are usually serviceable for putting it back together.

https://www.warn.com/warn-industries-7300-locking-hub-service-kit

[TJones]

You can get the service kit on Amazon for about $40

[TJones]

If your hubs are 10 spline and 6 bolts you will need the #7300 service kit.

[test1328]

Here is a photo of my axel u-joint. Can anyone tell me if they think this is the sealed Spicer? It feels really good and I don't see any issues with it. There wasn't much lube inside the knuckle, maybe some heavy oil. Just wondering if I should replace this joint or not.

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[bmorgil]

That is the original design U-Joint. It is not sealed. If it moves through its range of motion smoothly and there is NO end play side to side when pushing the joint into the caps, you should disassemble it and check it for damage/wear. With no seals in the U-Joint, the knuckle must be filled to the lube level holes with the correct EP lubricant.

[51 CJ3]

Now I know why some people say you have to fill the knuckle with lube when running the U-joints. I did not know the originals were not sealed. In fact, this is the first time I have seen this style U-joint without seals below the caps.

[test1328]

Well, I don't ever remember my Dad disassembling the axle down this far, so I doubt he ever changed these in the Jeep's lifetime. Since I would need to take this U-joint apart anyways, I might as well install the sealed U-joints and not have to mess with the lube. I was really surprised at how nicely it rotates and moves without any discernible friction or roughness, though. Pretty impressive for not having much lube inside the knuckle. The king pin bearings and races were pretty worn, so I'll be replacing those. I'm fairly certain that those are original as well. The actual wheel bearings and races look good. I'm fairly certain that these were replaced by my Dad years ago and probably don't have many miles on them.

[bmorgil]

Paul, somehow your last post disappeared! Well it has happened before. I was just thinking that will be a great post for the tech section. If you can, would you re-post the Hub lock information. Put it in the Tech Section.

[test1328]

Yeah, not sure why it disappeared, but like you say, it isn't the first time it's happened.

Sure, I'll repost in the Tech Section. Thanks!

[test1328]

Let's talk about the front suspension and shocks.

I'm looking for input on springs and shocks. Shocks first since that is easier, I think. Kaiser Willys has shocks for pretty cheap. However, they don't say what manufacturer they come from or anything else. Does anyone have any thoughts on good shocks to use, whether they come from KW or elsewhere?

Next come the springs, which is a long story. My Dad bought this Jeep in 1966. Starting around 1970-72, he started taking our family camping in a spot that required traversing some fairly rough sections of 4x4 road where he pulled a trailer to haul all of our gear. We would camp for a week with my Mom and Dad and four of us kids, so lots of gear. I believe because of this, he put on heavy duty springs on all four corners on this Jeep. After we grew up a bit and quit going on these camping trips, my Dad cussed the rough ride that came with these HD springs and decided to switch out the springs. If I recall correctly, he simply took out leaves from the Heavy Duty springs to arrive at a standard spring pack. I could be wrong about this, but in any case, he went back to the standard spring set. So...my question is I'm not sure how good the springs that are currently in place really are and how much hard use they've really seen? What do you think? Should I try to use them or get new ones? Are the ones at KW good or are there other suppliers that produce quality springs?

[bmorgil]

I have KW's shocks and springs on my Jeep and they are fine. I would bet they are Monroe shocks.

If your Jeeps ride height is in specification, your springs are probably just fine. They can take a lot more than camping gear. The spring package really would work on a light 1/2 ton truck. Pulling leafs and adding leafs has always been a way to adjust your vehicles load capability. I would clean and check the pivots, bolts and bushings for wear. If the leafs are not broken and the ride height is good, I would run them. If it is sagging and/or there are any cracked springs I would buy new ones.

[test1328]

Sorry for going backwards a bit, but I have a question about the axle shafts and the u-joint to use on those. Previously, it was recommended that I should use the sealed Spicer 5-760X u-joint. However, when I went to order these, I saw that the OD of the cups is listed at 1.188 in. I believe that is too big for the axle shaft U-joints. It should be closer to 1 in., don't you think? Is there a sealed Spicer that you can recommend that is the right diameter? I think it should be closer to 1.062? Thanks!

[bmorgil]

Yes the 5-260X is what you need for the model 25/27. Sorry about that, the 5-760X is for the model 30/44.

[gmwillys]

The shocks are in fact Monroe shocks. I put a set on my Heep a couple of years back from KW, and that's what they were. As Bmorgil said, if your springs are sagging, then by all means invest in new ones, especially if you plan to use your Jeep off road.

On a side note, I bought a '91 Jeep Wrangler, (Heep force 3) and it had a set of open country soft rider springs with a 2" lift installed. The road manners are way better than any Jeep I've had. Our '46 has a presumed original set of leaf springs, and it rides slightly better than a buck board wagon, but there are 10 leafs up front and 9 in the rear, so what would one expect.

[Cajun98]

Does anyone know what these old jeeps came from the factory with, spring wise? My '59 CJ5 has nine leaf spring packs in the rear and seven in the front. Don't know if they are original or not.

[test1328]

Thanks for the clarification on the U-joints! Glad I caught that before I ordered them.

From the little research I've done it seems that leaf springs with 5 leaves on the front and 7 on the rear were standard? I'm not 100% sure, though. I counted my front ones just the other day and I have 6 leaves on the front, pretty much confirming that my Dad put together a "custom" leaf pack. They look really good, though, and I don't think they're sagging much, if at all. Since I'm working on the front end and have the wheels off the front and everything torn back to the king pin bearing races on the axle, it is basically impossible for me to measure the right height to see if they're sagging. I also have all four corners on roll-able dollies so I can move the entire vehicle around my shop if I need to. That actually came in handy last weekend when I used my electric winch (hoist) mounted on the rafters above me to pull off the Ramsey PTO winch from the front end. That would have been impossible to do by myself otherwise.

[test1328]

GM, thanks for confirming the KW shocks are likely Monroe shocks. After doing a bit more research and looking at the various options out there, I've concluded that going with these shocks seem to be the best option. There are cheaper ones out there, but I suspect lower quality. Of course, there are also much more expensive shocks out there, but I don't think I would see much improvement in the ride with these springs and the way these Jeeps are built.

As much as I like the thought of putting a small 2" lift on this jeep, I'm trying to keep it as stock as possible. I also don't want to fight any headaches that lifts often bring on these short wheel base vehicles. With the limited power of the little engine, I really don't think putting larger tires on it makes sense, either.

[test1328]

Back to U-joints again... Sorry!

Do you guys recommend a different u-joint for the driveshafts? Do you think greaseable U-joints are a plus for the drive shaft u-joints or not?

[bmorgil]

Nowadays you cant beat the HIGH Quality sealed U-Joints. Properly installed they will go a long time. The nature of the seals in a greasable u-joint, have to allow grease to "purge" past the seals when re-lubed. This means the seal is a compromise between grease being able to purge out and contaminants being able to get back in. Water is the biggest enemy. The u-joint warms as it operates. When water hits it from the environment, the cooling effect tries to draw the water back into the joint. The seals must prevent this. The modern sealed u-joints are very good at this. I have personally examined some very high millage products that looked like new. I would not use a greasable u-joint anymore unless I had to. There are still some people however that prefer to keep them full of grease and would rather purge them from time to time. Your driveshaft should have 1310 series external snap rings. That should be a Spicer SPL 5-1310X sealed kit.

[test1328]

Thank you! I appreciate your help.

[gmwillys]

I'm a grease purge guy. The more grease zerks the better in my opinion. That's how I found out that the original rear axle pinion bearing was eat up on the Heep. I went to grease the rear U-joint with the wheels off the ground. Turned the shaft and the pinion clunked. The odd thing was that there was no vibration or noise when driving it around the ranch.

[bmorgil]

OK gm, your a process guy... what you are really saying is, an occasional maintenance inspection is very important!

[51 CJ3]

Regular inspections are important. I remember changing u-joints on everything I owned before about 2000. They all had grease points and got greased while I was changing oil. I didn’t put more than 60k miles on any of them. I don’t know that any of them had more that 120k total when I sold them. The newer vehicles I have owned have not needed any driveshaft maintenance at all. My 2008 F150 has 225K on it. The ‘69 Bronco dropped the rear drive shaft twice. Almost three times but I heard a “ping” in Tucson, AZ. Couldn’t find a loose end so I pressed on. It came apart in Kearney, NE but I got it stopped quick when I heard the rumble. Pulled the driveshaft and drove the last hour that day and the next 2 days looking for parts on the front driveshaft.

Off topic but the wife’s 2014 Explorer ate a rear axle bearing I couldn’t get the steel hub out of the aluminum knuckle so I ended changing both. It only had about 115K on it at the time.

[bmorgil]

Jeff, I hate to hear anyone having trouble. As you are eluding to however we have come a long way. I have had my "Old School Eye's" opened more than once by what our modern advancements in engineering and Machining have provided. When I started in the Automotive world, a vehicle that had 50,000 miles on it was getting up there in mileage. It was certainly time for a valve job. The rings would be beginning a rapid decline. The U-Joints would have already been replaced once. It would have needed a tune up at least twice by then. Now, I have seen perfect U-Joints come out of passenger cars with 250,000 miles on them. Sealed up tight, the original grease still in place. Engines that when torn down with over 100,000 miles on them, show no visible signs of cylinder wear. The difference in the seal technology and the surface finish modern machining provides, is unbelievable sometimes.

[test1328]

OK, I have a question regarding the u-joints on the axles. I was able to install the sealed Spicer 5-260X U-joint in one axle. Everything looks good and I installed the clips. However, the u-joint is still a bit tight,not really that loose and moving with little effort like I think it should. Is this normal? I tried wacking the side of the u-joint yoke housing with a hammer on all four sides and that didn't make any difference. It's still tight. Just to clarify, it does move but doesn't move very well under its own weight, it takes a bit of force to move each axle piece by hand. Any suggestions on how to proceed. I haven't done the other side yet. Any suggestions on how to properly put a u-joint in is also appreciated. I've been using a vice and sockets to push the caps in.

[bmorgil]

It sounds perfect, as long as it is smooth. If you are able to assemble it with no trouble, in particular getting the snap rings on, it should be fine. The joint should move smoothly and may or may not fall under its own weight. It should not take a lot of effort to flex the joint, but some stiffness is normal on new U-Joints.

Sometimes on disassembly and reassembly, if the yokes are not supported correctly you can "spring" the yoke ears. There will be no question something is bent as the snap rings will be very difficult to get in if at all. If there is a needle bearing out of place, you can crush them when pressing the joint together. If you manage to get the snap rings on with a "needle down", there will be no question as the flex will be rough and not smooth as it moves through the range.

[test1328]

Thanks! That is great to hear that you think all is fine. The joint does move smoothly, it just doesn't flop around like I thought it should. No issues getting the C-clips in at all. And, I was quite careful to make sure that all the needles stayed in place. I should be good to go, I think.

[test1328]

Slowly progressing on this project. I was able to get the u-joints replaced on both axles, all is good with them.

I've since disassembled the front differential. Everything looked good inside, but I wanted to replace the pinion seal since it was obviously leaking and I needed to replace the inner oil seals as well. Here a view of each one before I pulled them out.

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I'm wondering if anyone has a trick on how to install the new inner seals since there is limited room inside the diff housing to wack them in with a hammer? The manual calls out a special tool, but I'd prefer not to buy something new if I don't have to.

All in all, the housing looks to be in good shape and cleaned up fairly well. The races and bearings all look to be in really good shape. Little to no wear on the ring and pinion. I did swab out the axle housings to get the accumulated oil/gunk out of them. Do you think it would be a good idea to run a clean, oiled rag down the axle tubes to provide an anti-rust coating to the inside of the axle tube? Likewise, I've been thinking of the axle shafts themselves and whether I should apply a light coat of grease or oil on them when I reinsert them into the axle tubes to prevent them from possibly rusting in the future. What do you think? There was a slight coating of surface rust on them when I pulled them out, I suspect from sitting for so long. Not a big deal and it cleaned off quite easily.

Thanks!

[bmorgil]

The "trick" is in the tool. I have made one in a pinch with two large sockets the diameter of the seals, and a piece of all thread, washers and nuts.

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https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2166-Replacing-the-oil-seals-in-the-front-axle-cj3b

I don't see any problem if you want to "swab" the axle tubes and oil the axle shafts. It certainly wont hurt anything.