What do I have?

[Jagsare1]

I've been mildly looking for a "green" Jeep. I don't care about authenticity. Just wanted a "military" Jeep that is driveable and will be driven. Found and bought one last week. But I can't tell exactly what I have. It was sold to me as a 1970 Kaiser-Jeep CJ5. Drivetrain is original, 4 cylinder Hurricane motor. 24 volt system. Runs good considering its lack of use for the last 51 years. Transfer case and transmission are mildly leaking and there is a good chance they have never been apart. Engine needs a tune up at least but actually runs good. Body is in good condition with 3 thumbnail sized rust spots and one area that looks like bondo. Again, I have no intention of making it perfect but I will re-paint it the correct green and put a star on it(and will probably add "MILITARY POLICE" below the windshield, US ARMY and my dads military ID on the hood and front or rear bumper will say PANAMA CANAL ZONE, where my dad served as an MP)

Here are my questions. Fuel fill is in the wrong place(right rear) which is one of the confusing issues. There is a new fuel tank under the rear. Everything I can find about a 1970 CJ5 has the spare tire on the right rear and fuel fill left of the driver to an underseat gas tank. It doesn't have a VIN, has a chassis number and I cannot tell what the last 5 digits are telling me....if anything. Plates are in German or Dutch? Note the battery box under the windshielf. The owner didn't know a lot about it. He thinks it was built to be delivered to another country but it never left the US. He thinks the mileage might be original. He bought it to drive in parades. Based on the pictures and info, can anyone tell me more specifically what it is? Either way, it will fit my need so before someone tells me it isn't authentic.....I already know. :) And don't care. :)

First task is to get the carb off and rebuilt. Tune up. Then have to address the transfer case and transmission. Windshield is gone(previous owner threw a rock through it mowing his lawn). Gauges have something on the glass and I have to see if that is damage or something that can be fixed.

Thanks for taking a look and helping me understand exactly what it is.

[Jagsare1]

More pictures

[Jagsare1]

A more clear picture.

[gmwillys]

Welcome Jagsare1!

It looks to me, and judging from the model number 830-5014, you have yourself a Toledo built Swiss Army Jeep. There are two model numbers for those jeeps, one being the M606A1 12v version and the M606A2 24v version. The tires were the first clue that it had served in Europe/ or destined to serve if it was never exported.

http://www.earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index.php?threads/serial-number-or-vin-questions.28444/page-11

[bmorgil]

Very cool find Jagsare1! gm knows his stuff. Some history in that one.

[Jagsare1]

Hi gm,

In the link provided, it says the top mount vacuum wipers ended in 68 but mine has them and is a 70. I bought it with the understanding it was nothing more than a CJ5 but maybe it actually has real military roots.....if you call the Swiss military....military. :D

[LarrBeard]

Very, very nice!

A. "In the link provided, it says the top mount vacuum wipers ended in 68 but mine has them and is a 70." Even with this vehicle built for export, the First Rule of Jeep applies, namely: "What you see is what you have. Believe nothing you are told or read unless you verify it yourself."

B. Never say "Willys would never have ___________________." If they had an old windshield laying around, they would have used it.

And last of all - The Swiss military is a formidable organization. They are the main reason other European countries leave Switzerland alone and let them stay neutral in all of their squabbles.

[Jagsare1]

"The Swiss military is a formidable organization" - My ignorance and failure as a joke. Sorry about that. :(

I am using the search function and didn't find this answer so I will ask it here. As mentioned, I believe that nothing has been rebuilt in the drivetrain and probably never been worked on.
1. Transfer case leaking is most likely 51 year old seals. If you have to replace the seals, any reason to do more if it functions correctly? Anything funky that a good mechanic wouldn't know how to fix?
2. Transmission leaking - same info as above. Fix? Rebuild?
3. Carb - I know, not drive train but any reason to replace instead of rebuild?

Using the search function, I am finding nothing about this particular Jeep but have a lot of reading about the Hurricane engine, etc. Thanks for the help.

[bmorgil]

And last of all - The Swiss military is a formidable organization. They are the main reason other European countries leave Switzerland alone and let them stay neutral in all of their squabbles. I believe it is because every of age man is armed and in the military by law.

I have been waiting a long time for this... Totally on your side Jag.... 8620 :cool::):rolleyes:

On another note, If its working shifting and running well, fix the leaks and keep driving it. Make sure the fluids are clean. If it leaks out... it leaks in. Definitely keep the original carb.

It really depends on what you are doing. If you want to restore it, rebuilding everything gives you a great opportunity to really clean things up. It all depends on what you want to do with it.

[Jagsare1]

I simply want to drive it. Would be nice for people to think it is cool. Authenticity wasn't a goal. Kinda nice that maybe it was build for the military when I was under the impression it was just a green CJ5. I appreciate the help.

[bmorgil]

It is 51 years old and it runs, it defines cool!

[Jagsare1]

And not rusted out!

[gmwillys]

Not many people can say that they have a Jeep that has seen active duty in a foreign land, and returned. That's cool in my book.

[Jagsare1]

That would be pretty cool but if it was built for the Swiss army, why return it to the US? I have to say that I am very curious to know if the odometer is correct. Miscellaneous facts....found a shovel secured under the passenger side with leather straps. There is a space on the passenger side that housed a hatchet but don't have it. In the same place on the drivers side, there is a relatively small diameter pipe but no idea what goes in there. It has a heater, non-working for the moment. Put the summer top on it, the leather trim is cracked and shrunk so the top obviously doesn't fit and is about a 1-1/2 out of 10. I hope I can replace that.

I was given a box of what appears to be jacks and the things that go with it. Slightly rusted but not bad so I will work on them over time.

There is a small ring on the left front fender, looks like the remnants of this bracket: https://www.kaiserwillys.com/complete-blackout-drive-lamp-unit-kit-mounts-on-fender-fits-41-45-mb-gpw

There is a rifle holder secured to the right side of the drivers seat but I cannot find a picture of one anywhere. It has leather strips to cushion the rifle and it pretty thin, meaning a thin rifle. Not sure what weapons they were using in 1970 but the top holder looks only big enough for a barrel. The bottom holder seems pretty thin for a rifle butt.

Going to take my time to replace the windshield. I was told it may be difficult to get the size right? I can have one cut but no idea of the cost.

I think I mentioned that for some reason, the ignition system is 12v and everything else is 24v. To crank, a switch has been added and that has to be turned on and then you can crank it.

[5JeepsAz]

Maybe do an image search? Take a definitive picture. Load it into google and hit find this image. Maybe the algorithm will show you a picture of your jeep full of swiss guardspeople escorting the pope mobile! How ironical would that be?!? ;):D:rolleyes::)

[gmwillys]

There is absolutely no telling to why and how your Jeep is where it is today, and to know exactly how many miles are on it. From everything that can be seen, I believe the speedometer/odometer are original and correct.

The Swiss would have used the Schmidt Rubin K31 rifle up until the late '80s, the the SIG until the current day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K31
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/f0vp8r/swiss_service_rifle_day_and_companions/

[bmorgil]

Jags, take the windshield frame and all to your local Semi-Truck glass shop. They will fix you right up. It is the same flat panel glass used in semis and recreational vehicles. They will have the seals, and if they are a good shop, will cut the glass to size and install it all for cheaper than you can buy it.

[Jagsare1]

Not posting looking for a reply, posting this more for posterity and to have it show in a search for others. My Jeep was made for the Swiss military. On the right side of the drivers seat, top and bottom, on a slant, are 2 "mounts" that appear to be rifle storage mounts. They are U shaped and look to have a leather strip in each one. I have searched everywhere and cannot find any pictures or mention of these mounts. I found this comment on https://cj3b.info/Military/SwissArmy.html.

"I probably found another Swiss particularity: there is a special piece on the driver's seat that was used to hang a soldier's rifle between the two front seats."

There was a picture attached of the mount but not the actual piece in question. And, in fact, there are 2 pieces. I asked a question earlier about which rifles the Swiss were using in the 1970 range because these mounts are quite narrow. A barrel could certainly fit in the top piece but it would have to be a pretty narrow stock/butt to fit in the bottom piece.

[bmorgil]

Very cool link! The little Jeep certainly was everywhere and made in a few places.

From what I can find K31's gm mentioned below seem to be the rifle of choice back in WWII, but they could have used a modified anything to ride in the Jeeps. Did you say this was a '70? Around then it was the SIG 540. There are a few versions of a 540 the predecessor to the 550 gm showed which came in around the '90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_540

[Jagsare1]

I wish I had better pictures of the mount but this is all I have for the moment. See the bracket on the top right rear of the drivers seat? That would be the mount for the top of the rifle, probably a barrel. In the other pic, you can kinda see the bracket below the shift lever and attached to the front right of the drivers seat.

[gmwillys]

The look of the rifle mounts look for the modern SIG rifle platform. The distance between the but mount and the upper barrel clip come out right for the SIG.

[bmorgil]

That would make sense. That is one clean Jeep. I bet it was setup by someone for modern SIG's.

[Jagsare1]

I am not driving it for the moment only because the transmission and transfer case is leaking. I haven't checked fluid level and as long as I can keep fluid in it, on to fuel delivery. Once started, it actually runs pretty good but it is difficult to start. It isn't the engine, it is fuel delivery, fuel is leaking back to the tank and seems to have a hard time get it back to the carb to start. If we put fuel directly in the carb, it starts right up and is fine but if you leave it a couple of house, hard to start again. As soon as I can get to it, I am going to remove and re-seal both the transmission and transfer case.

I see what appears to be olive drab in a couple of areas where the paint is peeling and I see white around the fuel tank fill. Wondering if it was painted white at some point.

[bmorgil]

There should be plenty of fuel left in the float bowl after a couple of hours, to start and run the motor long enough to re-prime the fuel pump. Something seems amiss there. What carburetor is on it? If it has a Heat Riser in the exhaust manifold is it stuck shut? That would boil the fuel out of the carburetor when it sets. Something is causing the fuel to drain or evaporate from the float bowl. I would expect it to easily sit overnight and fire right up with a few pumps and some choke the next morning. There should be plenty of fuel in the bowl for that.

[Jagsare1]

I believe this is the Carter YS-950. I am not familiar with a heat riser. Did quick research, would a 1970 4-134 have a heat riser? I haven't done any investigation but know this. The fuel is not on the ground and not in the carb. If we continue trying the starter for many many minutes, it will eventually start(way more minutes than is good for a starter). If we put fuel in the carb, it starts immediately. Due to a move, I don't presently have a place to get to work on the Jeep but can't wait to do that. But if I solve the starting issue and make sure I have transmission and transfer case fluid, it is very driveable now. FYI, I believe everything is original except for the fuel tank, it was replaced a couple of years ago. But all internals, seals, etc, original, nothing rebuild or resealed, etc.

[bmorgil]

Yes it could have a Heat Riser. It would have been on there from the factory. It is possible it has been removed or, that it can be stuck in the "cold" position which will cook the carburetor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcA7ryBUkHw

The fuel should not be out of the bowl that fast. It can only get out 3 ways. It evaporates, it boils out from a stuck riser, it leaks out somewhere.

Did you fill the carb float bowl trough the vent? With the float bowl full does the accelerator pump squirt fuel when you work the throttle? With the float bowl full, looking down the carb can you see fuel dripping into the carb? Somehow it has to be getting out. With the float bowl full, pump the throttle, fuel should squirt from the accelerator pump. 3 or 4 pumps and some choke and it should start and run. If the fuel pump is bad it will run out of the fuel you put in the bowl. If the pump is good it should keep on ticking!

[Jagsare1]

Yes it could have a Heat Riser. It would have been on there from the factory. It is possible it has been removed or, that it can be stuck in the "cold" position which will cook the carburetor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcA7ryBUkHw

The fuel should not be out of the bowl that fast. It can only get out 3 ways. It evaporates, it boils out from a stuck riser, it leaks out somewhere.

Did you fill the carb float bowl trough the vent? With the float bowl full does the accelerator pump squirt fuel when you work the throttle? With the float bowl full, looking down the carb can you see fuel dripping into the carb? Somehow it has to be getting out. With the float bowl full, pump the throttle, fuel should squirt from the accelerator pump. 3 or 4 pumps and some choke and it should start and run. If the fuel pump is bad it will run out of the fuel you put in the bowl. If the pump is good it should keep on ticking!


Going to try and answer these questions tomorrow. This won't be the first time I tell someone I appreciate the help.

[bmorgil]

Jags as always I am getting this confused with another post on a similar issue. I thought you were getting no fuel at all. It seems you are fine once you get it started, and it runs fine once it starts. One change, before you try to fill the bowl through the vent, pump the throttle and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel down the throat of the carb. If it does there is already fuel in the bowl. It should have enough for 3 or 4 pumps and it should squirt every time (if it doesn't have enough fuel in the bowl to squirt 3 or 4 times, fill it through the vent till it does). That should be plenty of fuel to at least get it to fire. If it fires but wont keep running give it 1/2 choke and try again.

I am wondering on your starting technique Jags. It sounds like it just wants a little extra fuel when you start it. Once we are sure the fuel isn't leaking out of the carb, I think a look at how its starting might help. I am not sure how familiar you are with starting these classics. It isn't like a modern vehicle, the onboard computer is no help! You have to feed it just what it wants. A little air with the throttle, a little extra fuel maybe depending on how warm it is, with the choke or accelerator pump, and give it a try.

Will it start right away if you choke it nearly full? It starts when you dump fuel right in it, so we know it isn't getting fuel on its own to help it start. It could be an Idle circuit that needs tuning or the motor may just need a little more fuel to start. I am assuming you give it a few pumps and a little throttle when you try to start it after it sits for an hour. What is your technique for starting it after it sits for a while?

[Nightcracker]

By 1970 no civilian soft top had hood bows to keep the soft top up unless it was military. Same with the pintel hook.
I’d say it has a lot of military bits and pieces.

[Nightcracker]

It seems to have a pintel hook and military type good bows like some military spec

[Jagsare1]

Jags as always I am getting this confused with another post on a similar issue. I thought you were getting no fuel at all. It seems you are fine once you get it started, and it runs fine once it starts. One change, before you try to fill the bowl through the vent, pump the throttle and see if the accelerator pump squirts fuel down the throat of the carb. If it does there is already fuel in the bowl. It should have enough for 3 or 4 pumps and it should squirt every time (if it doesn't have enough fuel in the bowl to squirt 3 or 4 times, fill it through the vent till it does). That should be plenty of fuel to at least get it to fire. If it fires but wont keep running give it 1/2 choke and try again.

I am wondering on your starting technique Jags. It sounds like it just wants a little extra fuel when you start it. Once we are sure the fuel isn't leaking out of the carb, I think a look at how its starting might help. I am not sure how familiar you are with starting these classics. It isn't like a modern vehicle, the onboard computer is no help! You have to feed it just what it wants. A little air with the throttle, a little extra fuel maybe depending on how warm it is, with the choke or accelerator pump, and give it a try.

Will it start right away if you choke it nearly full? It starts when you dump fuel right in it, so we know it isn't getting fuel on its own to help it start. It could be an Idle circuit that needs tuning or the motor may just need a little more fuel to start. I am assuming you give it a few pumps and a little throttle when you try to start it after it sits for an hour. What is your technique for starting it after it sits for a while?

The previous owner told me it wouldn't start without sitting on the starter for a very long time. I "assumed" he was correct. He wasn't. The Jeep hasn't been started in over a month. I followed your procedure yesterday and it started right up. Apparently, there is no fuel problem. I changed transmission and transfer case fluids(short term fix because I know both are leaking) and it looks like chocolate milk. Who knows the age of that fluid. Could not locate a oil filter so I did not change the oil yet. Replaced the plugs and it runs better just from that one change. It needs plug wires. When pushing them back on the plugs, I can feel them "crunch". My buddy played with the carb a bit messing with the idle and couldn't quite get it where we wanted. Aftermarket inline fuel filter was nasty and replaced. I removed the hose to the air filter and found that most likely, the air filter needs a thorough cleaning, ran much better with the air filter disconnected. It already ran pretty good. Runs better now but not quite perfect.

Took some pictures. A few questions. I want to know what the plate is for on the front bottom right of the grill. It says "nachprufungen controles subsequents esami success"(not sure if success is the last word). I know the chrome bezel around the headlights isn't right, need to find green bezels but I also don't see how to remove them and I need to replace a headlight. Can the Sparton turn signal be rebuilt? I think it works but it "feels" terrible. Some suspect wiring in the engine bay. Horn is there, not sure if it works. Heater is there, want to get it operational. Small rust spot to the right of the differential lever. Connector to the left of the drivers seat? Connector for radio equipment? Engine needs a good cleaning. I have a thousand questions.

[Jagsare1]

Videos of it running. I filmed, that is a friend grinding the gears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6icAU60ugU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrPfnDpgF0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbbM6L6GEqk

[LarrBeard]

You indeed have a different beast for us to learn from.

I was surprised to see that it had an unshielded ignition system (for reduction of radio interference) and the dual alternator setup was a surprise as well.

One of our German speakers should be able to translate the data plate...

[Jagsare1]

I haven't gotten into the alternator set up. The owner told me the ignition was converted to 12 volt. There is a key switch and a toggle switch to start it. Just at a glance, I assumed I had an alternator and a generator? I think I am going to find that this Jeep doesn't fit any category....not a plain CJ5, not a M38 but maybe has some components of each?

[bmorgil]

It looks and sound great. Good to hear it starts right up! You may want to find a service manual and Operators manual or use these links below from our Tech Area. A lot of your questions will be in there. The turn signal looks to be an add on from somewhere. I don't recognize the wording on the plate.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2345-TM9-1804A-Engine-and-Clutch-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2278-TM9-8015-1-Engine-and-Clutch-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2279-TM9-8015-2-Power-Train-Body-and-Frame-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2277-TM9-8014-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1-and-1-4-Ton-4x4-Front-Line-Ambulance-M170

[Jagsare1]

It looks and sound great. Good to hear it starts right up! You may want to find a service manual and Operators manual or use these links below from our Tech Area. A lot of your questions will be in there. The turn signal looks to be an add on from somewhere. I don't recognize the wording on the plate.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2345-TM9-1804A-Engine-and-Clutch-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2278-TM9-8015-1-Engine-and-Clutch-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2279-TM9-8015-2-Power-Train-Body-and-Frame-for-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2277-TM9-8014-1-4-Ton-4x4-Utility-Truck-M38A1-and-1-4-Ton-4x4-Front-Line-Ambulance-M170


Agree. I already bought a service manual which has already helped.

[5JeepsAz]

The expert in BS of the forum has succesfully determined. Sompum. LIKE.

This is a fine early late example in buerocrat label. Roughly translated, it appears to indicate thusly:

after test another test success!

[TJones]

The expert in BS of the forum has succesfully determined. Sompum. LIKE.


What the heck does this have to do with anything that has been talked about on this post, asking for a Friend???

[5JeepsAz]

He asked what the label said. I translated it from early berocrat to complete nonsense... my bad!

"Took some pictures. A few questions. I want to know what the plate is for on the front bottom right of the grill. It says "nachprufungen controles subsequents esami success"(not sure if success is the last word). "

[Jagsare1]

The expert in BS of the forum has succesfully determined. Sompum. LIKE.

This is a fine early late example in buerocrat label. Roughly translated, it appears to indicate thusly:

after test another test success!



Any thoughts on what that actually means?

[gmwillys]

The Swiss /German Mrs. Google translation is vague at best. With several looked at, the meaning was all over the map. The consensus is a conditional acceptance of a successful test?....

[bmorgil]

I think you guy's have it. It looks like the general idea is "Passed Testing" like its approved to go racing! It doesn't directly translate in Google. Gonna have to ask a Swede!

[Jagsare1]

I think you guy's have it. It looks like the general idea is "Passed Testing" like its approved to go racing! It doesn't directly translate in Google. Gonna have to ask a Swede!

That makes some sense. Just one more thing to see if I can restore that plate to make it look decent. It was painted over at one point.