1st Time Jeep Owner

[Catlewis]

9033I'm new to this forum, however always wanted a Jeep, finally found one. Ended up buying a 1965 CJ5 with hardtop. Needs lots of work, currently does not run. Seems to be very complete and original. Doing a little research and appears to be somewhat "collectable". It's 4 cylinder stick trans. It will be a spare time / winter project.

[Catlewis]

It's Tuxedo Park. 9034

[bmorgil]

Looks pretty good! I like the top. It looks like most of the parts are there, that is always what you look for in a project. As far as collectable, now a day's if it is old its gold!

[LarrBeard]

Around here just about every Jeep is collectable to some extent - even if for donor parts.

The top is a plus - it probably kept a lot more water out of the transmission than an open tub would have collected.

The F-134 engine room isn't to the full anti-smog setup that the very late F-134's had hung on them, so it will be a little easier to work around.

Go look in the Tech Library on the Forum and we have some best practices we've discovered about trying to get a sleeping engine to wake back up. A little care can keep an engine that was in pretty good shape from becoming a major project.....

Keep us posted on how things go - and we always have free advice that will be worth all you pay for it!

[Catlewis]

I bought it from the second owner, he bought it in 1970. Last time it was on the road was 1985. It seems very complete with all of the Tuxedo Park options, bench seat, three on the tree, chrome bumper. Heck it even has the original briggs & stratton ignition key. He told me he quit driving it when one of the brake lines rusted off. Never took the time to fix it.
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[LarrBeard]

Dude:

You've got just about all of the pieces there - that's a lot more than most of us started out with!

But, I wonder - in the second picture - how fast was that bird going when he left those tail feathers on the microphone clip?

[Catlewis]

It's a guess at this point however assume it was a turkey feather the old guy found while hunting. He stuck it in there and after so many years baking in the sun it bleached out. 90399040

[LarrBeard]

As you have already seen it doesn't take much to keep us entertained....

By the way - the old key for the truck (my '48) is a Briggs and Stratton key. I know it was not the original key from '48. I think that was a standard blank for the lock cylinder that Kaiser/Jeep/W-O used, not a reflection on the size of the engine..

[test1328]

Hey Cat, nice jeep. I'm sure you'll have a blast getting her up and running again.

I just woke my CJ5 up from slumber since 88. Fortunately for me it wasn't very difficult to get her started. The engine needed work, but at least I got it going. You might check out my thread in the restoration projects forum. Lots of good advice there for you on how and what to do to get it going again.

[gmwillys]

Welcome Catlewis!

Great find for your first Jeep. The Tuxedos we're the top of the mark in those days.

[TJones]

Welcome Cat.
Like all the other guys stated you have a Great start and it definitely has the majority of all the pieces parts to get her up and running in pretty short order!!
Keep us posted for sure.

[Catlewis]

Thanks for all of the "welcome wishes & encouragement"! Right now have another project occupying garage space, hopefully have it completed by early spring. Really anxious to dive into this old rig. Preliminary plans include, new carb, fuel pump, & plastic tank to avoid rust. Also planning to replace distributor with electronic ignition,+ new plugs and wires. Vacuum wipers will get converted to electric. Going to maintain stock suspension and existing drivetrain including the three speed on column. Radiator and heater core will get dropped off at local shop and replace all of the hoses, and of course an oil change. That should get the engine running. Beyond that will be the braking system which we already know has issues. Thought about converting to front disc however considering the engine was rated @ 75hp, and the Jeep only weighs around 2200lbs, the drum brake system is probably fine. Want to check out a prebent stainless brake line kit to avoid future rust issues if they're available. Then replace shoes, wheel cylinders & flexible lines. Considering my geographic location (central PA), the body seems remarkably good. Yes there is rust however nothing like it could be for a 57 year old vehicle that likely spent it's entire life outside. All five original wheels are there however no hubcaps. All of the tires are toast, so they will need to be replaced. Planning to put antique license on it.

[bmorgil]

Great project ideas Cat. I like the Pertronix electronic conversions and have it in mine. The ability to quickly change it back to points in case of an "EMP" is nice. There is nothing wrong with converting the drums to disc up front, especially on a "driver". Though the little Jeep is light. The small diameter early drums do leave a lot to be desired. It takes both feet to stop quickly. A few have converted them on this site and I don't think anyone regrets it. I have the original drum set up and it is adequate for a resto that runs in parades. I would not feel real comfortable in traffic as panic stops require some serious attention. With a 50 or so mph top speed, it works OK. There are stainless lines available from a few places and I did post a while ago somewhere about a couple sources. The historical plate is a right of passage and I took advantage of it on all my classics.

[Catlewis]

Also have a 74 F250 Highboy and 87 F350, both with antique plates. Here's a pic of the 87, can't find one handy of the 74. Antique plates are great, no annual state inspection, and no annual license fee. The Jeep will be a nice addition, anxious to get working.
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[test1328]

Sounds like you have a plan, Cat!
I have a Ford pickup of similar vintage. Mines a 1990 F250 that I bought new and have used on a lot of hunting trips. Here's a recent picture of it transporting my F4-134 engine to the rebuilder last month!

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[Catlewis]

Cool Truck!
Now I have a Jeep question. Did they ever offer a factory installed fire extinguisher? This Jeep has one, if it's original equipment I'll keep it, if not likely remove. Here's a couple pics. It's located above the passenger's feet.
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[LarrBeard]

I doubt it was an OEM item, but since you already have a bracket, getting a freshly charged one would not be a bad idea. Pistols, parachutes and fire extinguishers have a lot in common - you may never need one but when you do ... you really need one in a hurry!

[Catlewis]

Another question, curious what this is. Lever / knob to the left of heater controls? Almost looks like an old trailer brake controller. Is it a factory piece of an add-on?
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[bmorgil]

One way to find out what is factory and what is not, is the owners manual. The glove box manual as us old timers called it. It will include the operation and location of the factory equipment as well as the optional equipment that may have been installed. That doesn't look factory. What is it hooked up to? Does it have a cable hooked to it heading down to the transmission area? I am going to take a wild a** guess and say I am thinking if it has a cable hooked to it, it was for a PTO or maybe even an overdrive. Someone here might recognize the setup.

[Catlewis]

No manual in the glove box in fact that's one of the things missing. I think mice destroyed it. It had / still has some huge mouse nests in it. Guessing most of the padding from the seats is gone. The tool box under passenger seat was level full of mouse nest. Also pretty sure there's another one in the headliner because it sags down in the middle right over driver seat. I'll have to take a good look under the dash with a flash light to investigate what is attached to that lever. It would be kinda cool if there was an overdrive trans!

[test1328]

I tend to agree with bmorgil that it looks like the PTO control. I'm not familiar at all with the Tuxedo Park rigs, but my CJ has the PTO control on the center floor just behind the transmission gear shift and just in front of the seats. I could see them moving a control lever up on the dash for more convenience, but who knows?

[Catlewis]

I think this is an original key. It says Briggs & Stratton on the other side.
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[LarrBeard]

Mine just says B&S...

[51 CJ3]

You might find there isn’t any insulation on the wires with the mice in it that bad. I don’t know what’s in the insulation they like so much but mice are pretty effective at stripping wire.

[bmorgil]

There is seldom a glove box manual. You will usually have to purchase a reprint. KW has them.

[Catlewis]

Checking the points and decided to install new points and condenser. It appears the only way to remove the points is to remove the entire plate inside distributor. 9335

[51 CJ3]

That’s a nice looking distributor. Points are a bit worn. Mine was rusty and packed full of sand. I couldn’t believe it was still making spark.

[Catlewis]

I've drained the oil and replaced the filter. Disconnected the fuel line, hooked up a fresh battery and started checking "what works and what doesn't". Amazing almost everything works, headlights (high and low beam), all of the parking lights, dash lights, even the fuel gauge. Remember this thing has been sitting since 1985! The engine turns over easy however even with a couple shots of carb cleaner directly into the carb, not even an attempt to start. Also noticed while turning engine over the vacuum wipers both work. Anyway, came to the conclusion "no spark" which lead to checking the points. Points appear very worn so I figured to simply replace both the points and condenser. Never worked on one of these engines, does it require removing the points plate to replace points?

[bmorgil]

No, just remove the screws and remove the points and condenser.

[Catlewis]

I took out the screw near distributor center shaft as well as the on that's used for adjusting point gap however Screw "A" attaches the wires cannot be accessed without removing the plate. It appears screws marked "B" need to be removed to take the points plate out and allow access to remove screw "A". 9336

[bmorgil]

Yes I should have paid more attention to your question. You are correct, remove the breaker plate assembly first and then the points and condenser. Take out the two screws that hold the plate in, and the wire. Rotate the plate to unlock it and lift it out.

[Catlewis]

Installed new points, condenser, & rotor cap. Disconnected the fuel line from tank, sprayed a little carb cleaner into the carb, pulled the choke shut and it fired up like it was running yesterday instead of 1985! Next I connected a piece of fuel line to the pump and then to a filter and then into a 5-gallon gas can. Started turning engine and immediately noticed the pump pulled fuel from the can and thru the filter however nothing in carb. Disassembled the carb and cleaned with carb cleaner, reassembled and it fired right up and idled. Engine sounds great, no odd noises only thing I've found so far that doesn't work is the alternator. She doesn't charge. Still a long way before it's drivable however it's certainly encouraging. FYI this is the tag from distributor which what I used to buy proper points and condenser. 9348

[bmorgil]

Nice! Sounds like a perfect day working on the Willys. Hang on to that tag. You can buy a new rivit online.

[Catlewis]

It's actually attached to the distributor by one of the screws that also attaches clips to hold distributor cap down. I noticed another tag hanging from the firewall behind the engine. Appears to be hanging from a wire. I'll have to take a photo and share. This Jeep is incredibly "intact" and unmolested considering the age.

[Catlewis]

Also wanted to report back about the mystery "lever" under dash. Upon further investigation this is an old trailer brake controller.
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[Catlewis]

Here's the tag hanging behind engine on firewall. It was attached with just a wire.
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[Catlewis]

Pulled radiator and heater core for re-conditioning. Both leak.
94679468

[bmorgil]

Man that's a rare tag! Those things are usually long gone. Keep us posted on how you do finding a shop to recondition those pieces. It seems to be a difficult trade to find in a lot of places nowadays.

[Catlewis]

I believe both the radiator and heater core are original parts. The radiator actually has a hard line for the overflow. Most have a barbed fitting and a rubber hose. Yep, I found a place here in central PA to re-condition both, in fact I'm dropping them off today after work.

[Catlewis]

I did break two of the clips used to thread bolts attaching radiator to body. Noticed they are available but expensive!
9470

[TJones]

You can take a look on Amazon CL and probably find what you need, I’m not sure what size you need but here are some 1/4” bolts with clips. I found a lot of stuff for my project on Amazon.

9471

[LarrBeard]

When I restored the '48, I replaced the radiator. My Dad had it repaired in the late 50's or early 60's and I remember watching the guy at the radiator shop pull off the tank and solder the leaking tubes shut. One of my few morning after regrets is that I didn't get it re-cored instead of replacing it. You'll figure out that original is better - even if it makes your eyes water when you see the bill.

My heater core did not leak, remarkably - but the truck still had good green coolant in it when we pulled it out of the barn and I have to believe that the coolant preserved the core.

And, I wonder - where was that CJ 3A M tag originally mounted? I've not seen one of those before....

[Catlewis]

Dropped off radiator and heater core last evening for reconditioning / re-core. Like to keep as many original parts as possible because like you, in my experience "you can't beat original stuff". Both the radiator and heater core as well as the engine had nice green antifreeze when I removed hoses. The original design fastener clips are available thru Kaiser Willys 9474. My goal is to simply have the Jeep functional for this fall / winter to be used as a local hunting ride. As for that tag, it was hanging from a piece of thin wire attached to a bolt on the firewall. Almost exactly behind the engine head.

[Catlewis]

I think tag was hanging from the rusty bolt just to the left of the rubber grommet hole thru firewall. See picture.
9475

[Catlewis]

Ordered radiator fasteners, new upper & lower hoses, oversized replacement plastic glove box, and fresh air flexible hose. Hopefully they will be in next week when the radiator and heater core are finished.

[bmorgil]

Oh man the parts orders are ongoing! It wont be long now, it will be like new.

[Catlewis]

Just finished up another project so I pulled the Jeep into garage this weekend. Goal is to get it drivable between now and this fall. Cooling system, fuel system, brake system, and obviously tires are the major areas. Next year maybe tackle the body. Unfortunately that's not how things typically work out. As you peel back the layers, issues you didn't figure on pop up. Looking forward to working on a simple machine with no electronic crap. Last project was a powerstroke diesel that had an underhood fire / melt down. Here's before and after pics. 9492

[Catlewis]

Here's the before picture. 9493

[Catlewis]

Jeep is in the garage! Let the repairs begin!
9494

[bmorgil]

Wow the trucks was a mess! The Jeep will be a lot more fun. That truck was a serious meltdown.

[gmwillys]

The Jeep will be a walk in the park compared tot the power stroke. Great job in getting the diesel back in shape.

[Catlewis]

Jeep has a growing list of issues. Last evening I noticed both rear leaf springs have multiple broken leafs. Also one front spring has two broken leafs. Kaiser Willys has a complete kit with all four springs, shocks, U-bolts, etc. I'll probably get that to simplify things.

[bmorgil]

I used the full set of springs from KW. They worked out perfectly.

[Catlewis]

I'm a little concerned about "originality". I think Tuxedo Park models had a different spring pac as compared to typical jeep. I think they had fewer spring leafs for smoother ride??? Guess I could remove leafs from new springs to match original.

[gmwillys]

From what I've seen, there was two leaf springs offered in the Tux Park CJ5s. They had six leaf packs, but were dual rate, (softer) springs for a better ride. I didn't come up with an exact match, but the closest without going overboard is in the link below. They are Omix-Ada, so it isn't my first choice of springs. https://www.vintagejeepparts.com/products/97264_Front-Leaf-Spring.-5-Leaf%2C-55%252d75-Jeep-CJ5.html I would check around and see if you could have a set built to spec by a local shop to keep the correct ride.

[bmorgil]

The authority on leaf springs. https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/

[Catlewis]

GMWILLYS is correct, this jeep has front and rear six leaf packs. Not sure what is provided in the KW complete kit however still leaning that direction. Last evening I replaced the alternator + new belt and she now charges! Had a hard time locating an original style alternator. Finally found a NOS "Blue Chip" and it was a little spendy ($125.00). Still waiting on the radiator shop to call about the heater core and radiator. Also still waiting on the first order of parts from KW, supposed to be here tomorrow.

[Catlewis]

eatondetroitspring.com doesn't list "Jeep" in my model year? Checked a bunch of other years and only found Jeep Commando?

[bmorgil]

If you give them a call they usually can provide more information for you. I think they can make anything you want. They used to duplicate any spring. I have had custom springs set up by them for other vehicles.

[Catlewis]

Bmorgil, thanks for the tip on spring manufacturer!
Well, received the first shipment from Kaiser Willys last evening. One of the parts I ordered was the oversized replacement plastic glove box. Attempted a "test" fit last evening and the thing broke in half! The glue joint failed. It's totally over priced @ $86.00 for two pieces of plastic! Buyer beware! 94979497

[bmorgil]

Not to worry, the boy's at KW will take care of you. Give them a call. If you don't like their parts they refund your money, no questions asked.

Eaton Detroit Spring takes it to a whole different level. The web site is loaded with information. The "Vehicle Selector" is an inventory of blueprints from springs they have made. If you call them they will make anything you want.

[Catlewis]

KW did in fact take care of me! I sent an email to them regarding experience with this glove box. They immediately sent me a replacement (standard size this time). It arrived yesterday (Sunday) along with a shipping label to return the defective one. Even sent me candy again (don't tell my wife)!

[Catlewis]

Does anyone know if this is an original Tuxedo gauge? This is the oil pressure gauge that was in the Jeep when I bought it. Not sure if it's an original or something that was added later. Notice it says "Made In USA"!
9502

[bmorgil]

I am pretty sure they used the same gauges from 1955 to 1971. It was a big round speedometer combination thing, with a light for oil pressure in it, on the right above the fuel gauge. I don't think it had any oil pressure gauge. You had to add it if you wanted one. Here is a link to a '65 that sold. The dash looks original and you can see he has added a gauge cluster under the dash. The gauge you have looks like it came out of different vehicle.

https://www.guyswithrides.com/2019/09/06/1965-jeep-cj-5a-tuxedo-park-mark-iv/

[Catlewis]

Wow, less than 2000 of these manufactured in 1965! Mine is identical to this other than top is slightly different. Thanks for sharing the info, I'll keep it for reference. Surprised at the hubcaps, figured originals would've been dog dish style.

[gmwillys]

The oil pressure gage looks to have come out of an AMC car. It took me a minute trying to think where I'd seen that particular style of Stewart Werner gage.

The Tux Parks were an honest attempt to upscale the Jeep to appeal to the higher end clients. They went all out with the fancy hub caps and chrome bumpers. Two wheel drive Wagons/Trucks/and Jeepsters usually went with the dog dish hub caps. After Kaiser bought Willys, then they integrated full wheel hub caps and most models.

[Catlewis]

Had the original radiator and heater core rebuilt. Just about fell over when they handed me the bill, $620.00! OUCH! 9565

[Catlewis]

Here's the other photos. 95669567956895689569

[Catlewis]

Three core seems a bit of an "overkill" for a little 4 cylinder engine! Maybe that was part of the Tux upgrade?

[bmorgil]

That's about right for both of them. A new brass/copper core radiator cost $600+ for the radiator alone. The tanks are all that's left if he re-cored them. You end up with practically new if they are re-cored. You can find Aluminum re-cored units for $350 at KW. The Brass/Copper is original.

[Catlewis]

Yes, both were re-cored. Guess I'm just not in tune with current "inflated" pricing. Also bought the dual reservoir master cylinder kit from KW. Haven't started that yet. Next will be the leaf springs, bushings, shocks, brake lines, shackles, and U-bolts.

[Catlewis]

Installed replacement plastic glove box last evening. It requires removing the factory "stop arm" on righthand side. 95989599

[bmorgil]

Steady as she goes! The glove box is back in action.

[Catlewis]

Ordered a complete suspension kit, new leaf springs, shackles, shocks, & bushings. Also bought new shock mounts and spring plates, new pre-bent brake line set, dual reservoir master cylinder, and complete exhaust system. Front is completely done and now working on the rear suspension. One small area on the rear frame rail that needs to be repaired however cannot find any repair sections for this particular year CJ5. 9697

[TJones]

WOW
You spent some money there Cat, nothing like doing it right the first time.
Now the fun begins!!!

[Catlewis]

Yeah, my wife has a difficult time finding logic in spending thousands of dollars in repair parts for a vehicle that initially cost $300.00? Must be a "girl thing", seems like sound judgment to me.

[bmorgil]

On a roll now! A nice looking pile of parts. Let her watch a Mecum or a Barrett Jackson, show her what yours might bring finished. Well restored old vehicles get top dollar original, not original, hot rodded, period correct or just plain cool. I just watched a CJ5 go for $40,000 It had a Chevy six in it custom paint, rims and tires and brakes from somewhere else. Lots of parts from different years of different vehicles. It looked real good however. Beauty and the price you are willing to pay for it, are in the eye of the beholder.

[LarrBeard]

It makes you wonder if the original cardboard glove box was shaped just a bit differently than the plastic "almost universal fit".

[Catlewis]

Manifold to tail pipe new exhaust system and new pre-bent brake lines. Prices for these parts are shocking to me. The exhaust kit didn't even include clamps or hangers (not to mention "made in Taiwan"). Brake line set is pre-bent for a single reservoir, therefore I'll have to modify it for the new dual reservoir. Also bought new flex lines + clips. Figured I'll install new lines and master, then deal with whatever leaks. I think this Jeep has 10" drums front and rear. Front axle is Dana 27 (I think) and rear is Dana 44 (offset diff).
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[Catlewis]

Front axle: New springs, bushings, shackles, shocks, pivot eye bolts, and shackle brackets. Cleaned up the front portion of the frame and painted it with POR15. Eventually I'll do the entire frame however my goal for this year is to get the Jeep functionally sound. Cosmetics will come later.
9699

[bmorgil]

I cant quite tell from the pic. It should be a 25 in a 65' CJ5, it could be a 27 in a late one and ya never know what someone might have slipped in. Look for the casting numbers on the center housing. These guy's have a nice I.D. article.

https://palmbeachcustoms.com/jeep-axle-identification-chart/

The parts can get a little salty but, I am always grateful they are available. The availability of parts is one of the main reasons I restored mine.

[Catlewis]

I'm 100% positive it was never changed from new. The front of the housing has the number "27" cast into it, which is why I guessed it to be a 27???
9700

[bmorgil]

Yes that would indicate a model 27. You must have a late build. The 27 really didn't show up until 1966. However as we all have found and have been told by the old timers who worked there, they put in what they had to get the vehicles out the door.

[LarrBeard]

Hint - paint the brake lines - they tend to want to corrode or rust a bit.

[Catlewis]

This marks the first time I ever purchased a prebent line set that was not stainless steel. This decision was somewhat forced on me due to the dual master cylinder. To my knowledge no one offers a prebent line set for this configuration, therefore knowing it's going to require cutting and re-flaring, I'd rather perform that on standard brake line material vs the much harder stainless steel. RUST, yes living in the rustbelt I'm all too familiar with the extra steps we must take to protect our vehicles. Axles, frame, and brake lines will be painted with POR15.

[bmorgil]

Don't you just hate rust? There are a few places that sell the stainless line in bulk if you want to fab your own. If you have a good flaring tool, stainless isn't that bad to work with. Lots of lube on the flare and bending it takes a bending tool to do a good job, it is stiffer than standard brake line.

[Catlewis]

Pulled the rear axle completely out. Replacing all the leaf spring attachment points as well as both rear shock mounts. Since I'm doing a lot of "torch work", also removed the fuel tank and found it is extremely filthy. Going to order new plastic fuel tank. Lifted the tank and the floor under it is terrible condition so I'll also have some sheet metal / welding work. One problem leads to another and then another......... One bright point, removing the driverside rusted floor will give me excellent access to the master cylinder!

[LarrBeard]

"Going to order new plastic fuel tank."

Plastic is the way to go. Fuel that sits, even with all the mouse milk we add to it, gathers water and water makes ... rust. Plastic won't rust. One long term problem solved!

[bmorgil]

One bright point, removing the driverside rusted floor will give me excellent access to the master cylinder!

Hahahah, true positive forward thinking!

[Catlewis]

Major rust issues under the fuel tank and inside tool box (passenger side). Sheet metal repair parts are difficult to find for this Jeep. Not many out there for 65 CJ. Appears I'll be making most of the repair panels myself.971797189719

[Catlewis]

Dana 44 with offset diff. Old metal fuel tank, and the Tux seats.
972097219722

[bmorgil]

Its really not bad cat. We have all seen MUCH worse. The water laid in the low spots and took them out as usual. The parts of yours that weren't underwater, look pretty good. If you don't feel like DIY floorboard man, MD Juan is making some stuff.

https://mdjuan.com.ph/product/assy-front-flooring-cj5-early/
https://mdjuan.com.ph/product-category/civilian/civilian-replacement-panels/

If you find what your looking for, give Mike V a call at KW. He is a Juan distributor. I am sure he either has them or, can get them.

gmwillys usually makes his own.

[Catlewis]

Already ordered the plastic fuel tank, I shipped the carburetor to Carburetor USA for rebuild. Just placed another order with KW for the front floor brace parts. I'll make the floor pans myself. I hope they have a diagram showing proper placement because some areas of my floor the braces are completely gone.

[gmwillys]

The hat channels are pretty much self explanatory. I will put in a picture of the bottom of an M38A1 which is the same as the CJ5s, except there is a fuel tank well that intersects with the hat channel, so it does not go all the way to the edge of the floor.. The panels offered by KW that are USA made are of good quality. You pay a bit more, but they are worth it.

[gmwillys]

To ensure I did have all of the hat channels lined up correctly, I utilized a spare frame to act as a jig to line up the mount holes through the hat channel. Tack them in and flipped it back over to finish welding. I did get a little too aggressive on the passenger side floor board when welding it in. I put a little too much heat in it, and it pulled up in the corner of the tool box. A little gentle persuasion, and it fell back in line. For the most part, a lot of the steel used was from donors that had other major issues that required much more work than they were worth, (although nothing is too far gone, it just depends on how much it would cost to bring it back around). The pieces from KW were great in my opinion. They fit nice, was the right grade and gauge, and were formed correctly. The KW pieces used were the passenger side lower rocker, fuel tank well, and passenger floor panel.

[Catlewis]

Excellent info and nice work GM! The very last photo shows replacing lower rocker, I need those also. Is that the part number written on the side? (M-38A1).

[Catlewis]

Anyone know if these army surplus hubcaps will fit my stock wheels? My Jeep is a 1965 CJ5A.
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[LarrBeard]

Try to send us a link to them - the screen shot doesn't show very much.

[gmwillys]

The lower rocker repair panels are the same for the CJ5 as was used on the M38A1. The link to the one I used are listed below;

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/body/repair-panels/side-panel-repair/us-made-lower-quarter-body-patch-panel-lh-fits-55-71-cj-5-m38a1

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/body/repair-panels/side-panel-repair/us-made-lower-quarter-body-patch-panel-lh-fits-55-71-cj-5-m38a1-7586

[Catlewis]

Larrbeard; I asked the seller if they fit 65 CJ5 and he said "they should". I'm not spending $250.00 for a maybe and then deal with the hassle of returning. The advertisement says they are "New Army Surplus"? I didn't know army jeeps ever had hubcaps.
GMWILLYS; Thanks for the sheet metal info. I purchased new sheet metal for both sides thru Quadratec. Excellent company! Placed order, immediately received shipping info and the parts arrived in three days.
Also ordered a set of tires. Trying to maintain stock appearance so I bought a set of DEESTONE tires. Last, new plastic (PVC) fuel tank coming from Gas Tank Depot.

[LarrBeard]

" The advertisement says they are "New Army Surplus"? I didn't know army jeeps ever had hubcaps."

I looked at eBay listings and I did not find those hubcaps listed. As far as I know, Army Jeeps DID NOT have hubcaps, so there is at least a little BS in the posting - not
unusual on fleBay - the world's biggest flea market.

[Catlewis]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265652354097?hash=item3dda1d3c31:g:UegAAOSwUM5iXww O
Seems like a legit item. redriverparts is the vendor. See if this link works.

[gmwillys]

The hubcaps are from a J series truck from what I can tell. They should fit any steel wheel from the late '60s through the '70s that have the center hub cap lip. The older Jeep, (Kelsey Hayes steel wheels) did not have the lip, and required a full wheel hub cap. I'll try and hunt up some photos of the wheels to help demonstrate.

Center dog dish style caps example with wheel;

https://www.bjsoffroad.com/15x8-Steel-Wheel-Accepts-Stock-Jeep-Hub-Cap-5-Lug_p_1400.html
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/steel-civilian-wheel-rim-15-used-fits-41-71-jeep-willys

Early Willys style with center cap clips;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144641412298

Early Kelsey Hayes style with no provision for a center dog dish hub cap;

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/tires-rims/rims-hub-caps/steel-civilian-wheel-rim-16-fits-41-71-jeep-willys

[bmorgil]

The second great post you have put together on hubcaps gm! I think its safe to say there is no such thing as a military hubcap is that correct gm?

[LarrBeard]

A note from the KWAS early style wheel listing:

"Also comes with a single 3/16" offset hole in the raise lug hole area of the disc that identifies rims with the safety beads."

And we learn something else today.

[TJones]

The second great post you have put together on hubcaps gm! I think its safe to say there is no such thing as a military hubcap is that correct gm?

Yeah hubcaps would make perfect targets in the war fields:):)

[gmwillys]

All the front line military equipment didn't have any bling, but a base support vehicle could have hub caps. So it isn't out of the realm of possibilities to have a military stock of hub caps sitting on a shelf.

Just a quick search yielded a few examples of some military patrol vehicles having hub caps.

https://www.usafpolice.org/base-patrol-vehicles.html

[Catlewis]

Thanks to everyone for the hubcap info! Unfortunately I'm still waist deep in sheet metal repairs. Definitely takes on a "snowball effect". Does anyone offer the vertical piece in the floor where it transitions from the front floor to rear. It's immediately behind the driver seat and in the passenger side it's the backside (inside) the tool box. It runs the entire width of the Jeep.

[gmwillys]

You are quite welcome.

KW has your floor riser sheet metal;

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/body/repair-panels/floor-panel-repair/replacement-steel-rear-floor-riser-fits-52-75-cj-5-m38a1

[Catlewis]

That's it! That's what I need. Thank you for the info!

[Catlewis]

Finally got the carb back. Hope it works as good as it looks!

9863

[Catlewis]

Finally got the carb back. Hope it works as good as it looks!

9863

[Catlewis]

Also collected some sheet metal parts.
986498659866

[Catlewis]

Deestone Tires. Hope they don't look too skinny.986798689869

[Catlewis]

Also new plastic fuel tank.98709871

[Catlewis]

Also placed a large order for enough "free time" to install all of these parts however it seems to be backordered yet again!

[bmorgil]

You are getting busy now! Don't ya love it when the parts come in.

[LarrBeard]

[QUOTE=Catlewis;20339]Finally got the carb back. Hope it works as good as it looks!

The nicest thing about it is that it isn't SOLEX!

[LarrBeard]

That is a good move. We don't drive our rebuilt Jeeps enough to keep fuel stirred up and as fuel sits, water condenses in the tank. Plastic won't rust and get flaky to stop up filters, fuel pumps and carburetor float needles.

And skinny tires? 6.00 x 16 tires were pretty skinny in the day - those are fine.

ANd if you find a good vendor for free time - keep it a secret from our wives but let us know.

[Catlewis]

Where was the original factory fuel filter located on these? Typically filters are located between the pump and carb, however there's a factory bent hard fuel line between pump and carb with no provision for a filter. Therefore is it safe to assume the filter was between pump and tank?

[bmorgil]

The only "filter" is the screen in the bottom of the glass bowl on the fuel pump. Most added a filter right at the carburetor. KW has the period correct NOS filters that a lot of dealers and owners installed. https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nsearch/?q=fuel%20filter

On my carb a WO, I use the metal one. It goes right into the carb with a 1/8" pipe close nipple, then the original fuel line hooks right up. You remove the fitting from the float bowl and screw it into the filter inlet. I am not sure how it sets up with your carb. You have an F head '65 right? You have a YF Carter and a different fuel line set up. Any good filter between the pump and the carburetor will greatly improve the reliability. The Carter's have a very touchy idle circuit. The smallest particle and the idle is a mess.

[Catlewis]

You have a nice clean engine bay there! Yes, mine is an F head 1965 with Carter YF and they do have an easily clogged idle circuit. So Kaiser Willys has a filter that fits into the glass bowl on the pump?

[LarrBeard]

When I put the F-134 in the '48, I split the line and put in a filter. This is a bit smaller that the glass bowl add-on

[bmorgil]

No not a filter for the pump. Separate in line filters like the picture of mine. The link I sent has two you can use. A metal one and a glass one, or any good filter will work. Just make sure they go somewhere between the carb and the fuel pump.

The pump has a screen built into it in the bottom of the glass bowl.

[Catlewis]

When I put the F-134 in the '48, I split the line and put in a filter. This is a bit smaller that the glass bowl add-on

This is similar to what was installed by previous owner, however he had it between tank and fuel pump. My pump does not have a glass bowl on the bottom, looks like a metal cap. Probably should remove that and clean it??? I'll likely install a new metal line from tank to pump and install an inline filter like yours between pump & carb. Still waiting on that backordered box of "free time"!

[bmorgil]

The bowl on these is actually on the top of the fuel pump you can get a glass or steel bowl, with or without a vacuum pump. It provides an area of expansion for the fuel and the screen inside it was the only filter Willys originally provided. I wouldn't take it apart if it is working OK. Good luck on the "free time" order. I hear there is a supply chain issue.

[Catlewis]

Rear ready to re-install. Also cleaned the rear portion of the frame and painted it. Next will be that dual master cylinder conversion990799089909

[bmorgil]

Looking good!

[Catlewis]

Bought a dual res master cylinder kit a while back and just now attempting to install. Not happy with the quality of fitment (especially when considering the high price). Also received two bolts with fine threads and the supplied nuts are coarse??? Photos in the instruction also do not match components received. Really low quality as compared to high price...........

99719972

[Catlewis]

OOPS, wrong photos!99739974

[Catlewis]

On a brighter note, finally got the wheels sand blasted, and painted. Then had new tires installed. Also scored a set of Jeep hubcaps on EBAY. Granted they're not correct for a 1965 CJ5A however look pretty good.9975

[LarrBeard]

"granted they're not correct for a 1965 CJ5A"

Just keep in mind The Rules of Jeep:

1. What you see is what you have.

2. Trust nothing you read or what you are told until you verify it with your own eyes.

3. Never say "Willys-Overland would never have ______________________."

Fill in the blank.

If they needed to and it fit they could have, and they probably did. Your "not original wheels" could have been a dealer option (excess inventory sold to dealers as a trim upgrade) or WO might have had too many Wagoneer hubcaps in the stock room so they used them on the line for a couple of weeks.

Only you will know the difference!

[Catlewis]

The dead giveaway these hub caps are incorrect is "red/white/blue" colors. This was started when AMC took ownership. I think Jeep Kaiser colors were "red / gold", (at least on the hub caps). Another issue with the dual res brake conversion. Nothing in the instructions regarding how the brake lines from the dual res are re-connected to the old one line system. Here's a photo of current set-up. Top line is feed from old one line master. Top left goes to rear brakes, top right goes to passenger front, two lower lines are actually looped together??? Do I need a new proportioning valve also? 9976

[bmorgil]

The hubcaps are what would be called "Nostalgically Correct". I like them!

The dual master cylinder should have the front chamber as the "Rear Brakes Secondary" and the rear chamber (closest to the firewall) as the "Front Primary". The primary goes to the proportioning valve front "In", and the "Secondary" goes to the proportioning valve rear "In". Depending on how many outputs the proportioning valve has, from the front to a tee if needed to split it, and to the front brake pistons. The rear is the same. From the rear of the proportioning valve to a tee if needed and then to the rear brake pistons. If you don't have a proportioning valve, you will need one with a dual Master Cylinder, unless the Master Cylinder System is internally "Balanced". The "double tee" set up you have pictured is unique, but not quite right. The conversion does not hook directly into the old "one line system". You will need to run a few new lines.

[Catlewis]

The original single master cylinder braking system does not have a proportioning valve. So my question is when converting to a new dual master cylinder braking system does it require also purchasing a proportioning valve for proper installation?

[bmorgil]

If you install a Dual Drum Brake Master Cylinder, retain the original drum brakes with the original wheel brake cylinder size, no you do not need a "Proportioning" or "Combination valve". The sizing of the original brake components are such that the system is balanced.The Combination Valve is always there and needed in Disc/Drum combinations. There are various reasons but suffice it to say the valve controls the difference in braking requirements for a disc front / drum rear vehicle. If you change the brakes in a way that allows unequal braking front to rear like larger rear brakes you will also need a proportioning valve. It is important that the rear brakes do not lock up, if at all, before the front brakes or the vehicle will spin uncontrollably in a panic stop.

So if you are staying all original and just adding a dual Master Cylinder For Drum Brakes, you do not need a valve. Depending on your Master Cylinder, usually the back chamber closest to the firewall will go to the front brakes and the forward Chamber will go to the rear brakes. If your kit comes with a valve, use it. If not you don't need it. Just be sure your Dual Master Cylinder is for drum brakes if you are keeping the original drum brakes front and rear.

[Catlewis]

Thank you for an excellent response! Very informative and complete!

[bmorgil]

You are welcome! Keep it going, your project sounds like it is coming along well.

[Catlewis]

Topless Pics!
100581005910060

[Catlewis]

Floor bracing.
100611006210063

[bmorgil]

Coming along nicely! The dash is in nice shape. You still have the lock on the glove box. That's a rare thing. You have a good bit of steel left there. The rust looks like it was just the typical "floor board puddle" that took out the steel there. The upper deck looks pretty good under the back seat.

[LarrBeard]

WOW! Topless .. look at that rack, er roll bar!

[TJones]

Yepper it’s in Real nice shape!!!
Your doing a great job there!

[gmwillys]

Looking good

[Catlewis]

Buddy sent me a photo of his completed willys jeepster. Lookin Good!10186

[bmorgil]

That just takes you back in time!

[Catlewis]

Need some help locating a vendor for this part. It a passenger side brace for 1965 CJ-5 (circled in blue). 10190

[bmorgil]

If you cant find it, give Mike a call at KW. He does have some sources for steel. I think gmwillys might be able to help. You may have to fab that up out of sheet steel. It looks like a standard hat channel.

[gmwillys]

I've been lucky so far for the quarter brace. The one you have on your CJ5 could be easily fixed, but the closest replacement piece for size would be the inner rear fender brace;

https://walcks4wd.com/Spare-Tire-Brace-CJ-Models-1945-1971_p_1718.html

It will need to be modified because it is not exactly a match to what you have.

I would follow Bmorgil's advice and talk with Mike at Kaisers to see what he recommends. I looked through some of my photos to see if maybe I captured a picture of the M38A1 I did a few years back, but nothing that showed the brace in detail. I'm certain that that model had a brace made from a hat channel like the floor braces.

[Catlewis]

Thanks guys!

[Catlewis]

Just an FYI follow up on this side brace. I found them on EBAY. Seller name is CANDCEQUIPMENT, located in Unionville Indiana. Price is $22.00 each.

[gmwillys]

Good deal. I've bought a couple of things over the years. As of late, they have been getting into the Jeep game, so I haven't bought or looked into their pieces to see where they come from. Please report back to let us know how it turns out.

[Catlewis]

So far they appear to be great! Placed order on Thursday, scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Immediately provided shipping / tracking info (didn't have to ask for it). My first impression is they manufacture some of their own parts but also sell parts produced by others. I noticed they sell Juan fenders.

[Catlewis]

Received the part from C and D, it's actually a "Juan" part. Similar dimensionally, but lighter steel. It will work, however I would not categorize it as top quality.

[gmwillys]

My Dad bought a '51 M38/CJ3A Jeep that was an MD Juan body and frame. The only original pieces were the drive line and a few odds and ends. The body fitment was in my opinion was terrible. In full disclosure, this was an early Juan body, circa '85 or so. The quirks of the M38/CJ3A Juan bodies is that they share attributes from both the models of the M38 and a few attributes of the 3A. The last photo is of an actual M38 for reference. The newer bodies are supposed to be a lot better, but like you said, the quality of the steel used leaves a bit to be desired. The metallurgical makeup of the steel seems to be a conglomeration of scrap steel and rebar, so welding with it is a treat.

[Catlewis]

All the welding I'm doing on body repairs has definitely provided the opportunity to compare various welding wire manufacturers. Lincoln is what I like best followed by Inweld, then Hobart, and last is the stuff supplied by Harbor Freight. Also, welding this very thin material has taught me preparation prior to the weld is far more important than joining thicker materials. Also, welder settings are critical. Currently using .023" wire on body sheetmetal. I'm not a "body man", doing best I can, planning a rattle can paint job aimed at mimicking original faded / weathered look, but want proper structure under it. Meaning if so desired at a later date, it could be dropped off at a professional paint shop and they could put a nice paint job on it without doing any metal work.

[bmorgil]

.023 is what I use on my small Lincoln hobby MIG. It works great for a lot of things.

[gmwillys]

I use ESAB .035 solid core wire with 75/25 argon CO2, through an old Miller 135. I like to burn in as hot as I can, with as fast of a wire speed as the material will allow. I bought a new rig that I have been itching to try. It's a multi process MIG, TIG, and stick from Eastwood Fab.

Metal prep does make or break a quality weld, that's for sure. A tip I found is to use the nylon abrasive brushes that Horrible Freight sell for $3.99. The brushes eat through paint layers and Bondo without removing any metal. They work much better than wire brushes mainly because you don't have to dodge wires flying about. Another plus to the nylon is that it preps the metal enough for primer to adhere to with just a good wipe down with prepsol.

[bmorgil]

gmwillys those "horrible freight" brushes are great on gaskets too. The next time you can't get a gasket surface clean, go after it with one of those. Great find and tip gmwillys!

[Catlewis]

I have a Lincoln 140HD and use the same shielding gas mix. Normally have it set-up with .035" wire, however there was not way I have the talent to weld sheet metal with that heavy wire. .023" at lowest heat setting seems t work good when the metal is clean and good ground. I'll check into those nylon abrasive brushes and thanks for the tip!

[Catlewis]

More metal work..........10568

[Catlewis]

More metal work..........10568105691057010570

[Catlewis]

1057110572

[bmorgil]

That is looking fantastic! Nice work there, it is definitely growing new skin.

[Catlewis]

As it turns out, would've been much further ahead to simply buy a new tub. Probably run this for a few years and go for the completely new body.

[bmorgil]

No question its a lot of work once the rust sets in. You have done a great job of getting it back together. I think it is looking very solid.

[gmwillys]

Well done. In my opinion, I'm glad you went with fixing your original body. New bodies are quick, but you know every square inch of your rig now.

[Catlewis]

Sheet metal work complete on rear half with the obvious exception of the rear floor area. Due to my poor / non-professional metal fabrication skills, pre-existing dents, eroded metal thickness, and low carbon content from many years of corrosion (I think that covers all my excuses), there is every degree and level of weld quality on this project!
106081060910610

[Catlewis]

More pics.
106111061210613

[Catlewis]

This is after applying acid etch.
106141061510616

[bmorgil]

It is looking real good! And I am pretty sure they came with all kinds of weld quality back in the day, therefore its original.

[gmwillys]

I agree, the welds look pretty good. The vintage frame welds were pretty shotty, but Willys more than made up for it in the amount of spot welds they used for the bodies. I often say that the welders must have been paid per the spot welds.

[LarrBeard]

Is the bevel on the fender well original, or is that a custom improvement?

[Catlewis]

That's original design, however I had to replace both due to rust. Here's a couple pics of the originals prior to cutting them out. 1061710618

[LarrBeard]

I had never looked at that area in a little Jeep and I just wondered if you had made an improvement - that would have been a wicked sharp corner.....

[Catlewis]

Welcome to "Bondo Land"! Painted the acid etched body with POR15 epoxy then scuffed it and applied a base layer of long strand fiberglass filler, sanded that, and covered the coarse fiberglass surface with typical Bondo. Just started this process so it will likely take several weeks of evening work to make a noticeable difference. I'm an entry level novice body man therefore the flat panels are to my advantage. 106231062410625

[bmorgil]

Its looking very good!

[gmwillys]

The fiberglass and Bondo process is my least favorite part of the job. It may be that I have limited patience, but more so it is the fact that I can never find my happy medium of the just right amount of filler to mix up to work the area, or end up making too much and it hardens before I get it worked in.

[Catlewis]

Getting closer, but still a ways to go!
106431064410645

[bmorgil]

That looks great! I would say you have it down.

[gmwillys]

Looking good Catlewis. It's coming along nicely.

[Catlewis]

Both of the front fenders are badly rusted + dents. I originally intended to weld-in repairs and continue the body work, because the price of aftermarket replacements are ridiculous. Recently I noticed another style advertised to "fit", however not identical to original as they include a side marker light. Anyone have experience with these, or would you suggest repairing the originals?

[bmorgil]

You are doing so good, why stop now! The original stuff is better, and always correct. If you can do it and there is a significant amount of the fender left, I think you are doing a great job. gmwillys will tell you he is going to fix it every time.

It is really a work vs reward thing. In my case there was very little left. What ever I could repair however I did keep original.

[LarrBeard]

On the '48 truck the steps between the cab and rear fenders were very badly rusted with the channels almost gone and the nuts rusted away. We bought "replacement just like original" steps and after we looked at them for about 5 minutes we decided to rebuild the originals. The "replacement just like original" steps looked like upside down bread pans - -- no thanks.

Stay with original if you can.

[Catlewis]

I'm running out of time as I want to use this vehicle during hunting season this year. Squeezed for time, I'll likely buy the aftermarket fenders and put the two originals (rusted & dented as they are) in the upstairs of my garage. They are repairable but will require considerable investment in "time". Agree with the statements about "original parts". Been fooling around with stuff like this for more than 40 years and can't recall even one time when a replacement part was viewed as superior to original....

[LarrBeard]

" I want to use this vehicle during hunting season this year. "

Yeah, a man has to prioritize his tasks. It will be November before you know it. As they said: "Winter's coming."

[gmwillys]

The aftermarket fenders are for a newer CJ5 with the marker light but will fit your application no problem. As some have said, I'm a stickler for fixing the originals. I do understand that you are under a time crunch, so if you are happy with the reproductions, then go with it. When I did the fenders on my 2A, I probably spent a whole weekend just fixing holes, and welding in new supports. Then another weekend working the fenders smooth and painting. I haven't used the reproduction fenders, so I'm not sure to how well they fit, but I'm sure you'll be happy with them overall.

[Catlewis]

I'm an avid "public land / fair chase deer hunter" and travel to numerous states each year. The ultimate goal for the Jeep will be to utilize it in the Northwoods of Maine. Plan on towing it behind F350 dually that has a slide-in camper. Have not decided if flat towing or trailering. No experience flat towing however the Jeep did come with a tow bar. Also, wanted to mention, it's ironic the last few bucks I've had mounted, the taxidermist lives in / near Ft Wayne!

[bmorgil]

Flat towing a Jeep is a common thing. Freewheeling Hub Locks up front and pulling the rear driveshaft, I wouldn't hesitate to flat tow it for thousands of miles. A trailer is a very convenient thing to have however.

[Catlewis]

So rear drive shaft "removal" is a requirement + the front hubs must be unlocked? The only attractive aspect of flat towing is eliminating the added weight of also towing a trailer. Obviously flat tow also eliminates trailer brakes.

[bmorgil]

No neither is a requirement. It is however much easier on the drive train. A lot of people pop them in neutral in the trans and transfer case, and just roll baby!

They pull easier and there is less wear on the rotating parts if you put hub locks up front and pull the rear drive shaft. It is worth a few miles to the gallon on the pull rig. Pulling the driveshaft is pretty quick and easy.

[gmwillys]

The rear drive shaft is a good idea, because you would be spinning the transmission in neutral, so all of the internals would not be getting adequate lubrication. On the newer YJ and up Jeep Wranglers the manual calls out the transfer case in neutral and the transmission in 5th gear while towing to ensure the transmission is receiving lube while being towed. Another common issue with flat towing, (to which you will not have this issue) is that the tow vehicle is too small or same size of the Jeep. If you do not pull with a heavier vehicle, then you'll have a bad day. The F350 will be more than adequate to pull the Jeep.

I'm a trailer guy. I use my trailer at least twice a month for you name it, basically if it halfway fits, it ships. With the trailer prices going sky high, it's hard to invest that much into something that you may not use all the time, but I assure you, if you had one, you will not know how you lived without one. Maintenace is pretty easy on a trailer. Every year I go through and freshen up the grease in the wheel bearings, and every two years the bearings and brakes all get cleaned and inspected with new axle seals installed. New tires around every eight years just for safety sake and wiring and lights replaced every ten years.

[bmorgil]

You do have to be careful flat towing vehicles. The transmission type is very important. If you have an automatic transmission, you must pull the driveshaft as the pump in the trans will not be turning. It can cause some serious damage. On the T90 in the Jeeps, the first / reverse gear is always spinning if the output shaft is spinning. In addition, in neutral the main shaft is spinning in all the rest of the gears. This causes a lot of parasitic drag from the slinging lube from 1st/rev and the spinning main shaft. It also will wear all the components just as if it were running in neutral. All that said, many people have and do flat tow Jeeps. It all depends on what works best for you. I do prefer a trailer but, there are times when a flat tow is well worth it. You cant always get a trailer into a remote area.

[51 CJ3]

I second the usefulness of the trailer. I bought an 18’ dovetail for one purpose several years ago… to haul my CJ3A home from work (500 miles). That trailer sees a lot more use behind my F150 than I imagined it would when I bought it. I even used it as a boat trailer when my boat trailer was stolen while I has out fishing one day. A jeep doesn’t need that much trailer but that’s what was available exactly when and where I needed it.

I miss being able to make purchases like that but I am so glad I am not gone 6 months out of the year anymore.

[Catlewis]

New front fenders ordered and scheduled to arrive on Thursday this week! This past weekend I finally welded in the new rear cargo area floor. I'll be glad when the body work is completed and I'm back into the mechanical stuff.

[Catlewis]

Forgot to attach the photos. 1071810719

[gmwillys]

The rear floor turned out pretty darn good. The donor vehicle must have been pretty nice. The quarter panel turned out great!

[Catlewis]

Donor vehicle for the rear floor was from my son's Dodge pickup. He installed a new bed and before scraping the original one, old dad snagged a piece of the floor.

[gmwillys]

Yep, don't waste to what you can use for sure!

[Catlewis]

Front fenders arrived and the fit quality is terrible. Initial advice suggested the replacement fender would only require some inner fender well cutting to clear the shock mount. FYI for those considering these fenders, it requires much more! At this point the fender still does not "bolt on", however I'm getting closer. Battery box is going to require modification.10757

[bmorgil]

Were did the fenders come from?

[Catlewis]

Crown is the manufacturer. I think most all of the Jeep parts suppliers (including Kaiser Willys) are selling the same fender Crown pn# 984705 & 984706. Different prices and different shipping rates but identical parts. I bought mine through Summit Racing because they offered lower price and free shipping. They're in Ohio, I'm in PA, on most occasion's it's virtually overnight shipping for free!

[Catlewis]

Had to turn around and take a photo of this the other day. Tempting new project! My wife would kill me!10784

[bmorgil]

Yikes! That would require at least a stop.

[Catlewis]

Progress report. Body work done, front fenders mounted. Seats & roll bar just sitting there for the photo. I'll remove them and spray the entire floor & cargo area with spray in truck bedliner.
10797107971079810799

[Catlewis]

Couple more.
1080010801

[bmorgil]

Oh man that's looking good!

[56willys]

Looks great!! You're doing a good work. Maybe someday mine will have floors too...

[gmwillys]

Well done Catlewis. She's coming along nicely.

[Catlewis]

Still a lot of work remaining. Beyond the spray in bedliner, I need to dive into the brake system. I bought and installed a dual master cylinder, also bought a set of pre-bent brake lines however they do not fit correctly. Seems to be some confusion each time I attempt buying brake components and in retrospect it's likely due to this being a tuxedo park model. Have not removed any of the drums yet, however I'll wager it has 10" brakes as compared to typical 65 CJ-5 would have 9". Also need to install the exhaust system. Bought a new pre-bent system and it fits nicely, just need to bolt it in permanent. My hardtop also needs work. Neither of the side windows roll up or down. What little research I've done, appears to have "hook chain regulators". Hopefully all they need is lubrication.

[Catlewis]

Sprayed everything with black primer. Next will be a series of color layers (varying shades of red) followed by wet sanding thru some of those layers to mimic a weathered appearance. Last I'll spray the entire thing with satin clear or maybe just use a rub on lindseed finish???
108261082710828

[bmorgil]

Looking like brand new!

[gmwillys]

I've been experimenting with protective coats on our 2A, since it is bare metal. I've tried several items on the market recommended by the rat rod crowd, like Shark Hyde, but I believe I get better bang for the buck with the boiled linseed oil. The clears tend to turn yellow and you'll get rust staining start under the clear after a year or so, so then I end up stripping it all back down and starting over. With a paint base like what you are doing, the clear would stay as it should for years to come, since it is a paint sealer, and not a metal sealer.

[Catlewis]

Going "ALL OUT" on this one, no expense spared! Even bought a brand new set of never before used foam brushes to apply the color coats!

[Catlewis]

Sprayed the tub, & front fenders with "colonial red" while the hood, cowl, and grille still have the original paint & patina. Now, the challenge will be to make the colonial red look like hood, cowl, and grille.

10859108601086110862

[bmorgil]

Blast it with some extreme UV, that will fade it. That thing sure turned out well Cat!

[Catlewis]

The photos make the paint look better than it is. I painted it with a sophisticated ACRSP system which stands for, Aerosol Cans of Rustoleum Spray Paint. Two 12oz cans grand total of around $12.00 from walmart.

Extreme UV? I'll have to google that, as I have no experience using it or even hearing about it previously.

[bmorgil]

I don't think its something you can get done Cat. If you could, it would be like putting it in the sun for 10 years in the desert, compressed to an hour.

You could try to use a dulling sand. You could try some varying grades of fine sandpaper or rubbing compound to "dull" it down. gmwillys is the "Patina" expert. He might have a trick.

[gmwillys]

It does look really good. I don't have a real good set of advice on the fading of the new paint to match the old. I've seen some do it on You Tube, and they made their tailgate match fairly well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2LiQe3Wbvc

[Catlewis]

Decided to change direction. Going to attempt painting the remaining portion of the Jeep to match the tub. Based on the quality of that finished product, I'll make a decision for moving forward. If I get lucky again and it turns out decent, might consider scuffing it and buying an automotive quality satin clear to spray over the entire body. If it turns out like crap, then at least I'll have a uniform "color layering" platform to start out with for a patina paint scheme. The entire tub has gray epoxy base coat covered by one coat of black followed by the colonial red. I'll do the same layering on the hood & cowl so if we go the "patina" route, sanding thru layers will produce a consistent result anywhere on the body.

[gmwillys]

You'll have a an easier time of getting everything matched up.

[Catlewis]

Here's some photos of a rookie making a rust repair last evening. I'm not a body man however learned a lot during this project. These little pin holes show up when wire brushing old paint off, the metal is so thin only thing you can do is cut it out and weld in a new piece. Nearly identical on both sides near where the little catches for the hood latches bolt on. Must've done this type of repair 20 or more times on this project, it was a rust bucket!1087310874108751087610877

[LarrBeard]

Well. you may consider it rookie, but you seem to have gotten a really good handle on fixing those places.

There were a lot of places on the '48 that were donated from 78 Chevys - like all of the backing plates for the bed spot welds.

[Catlewis]

That looks like an epoxy "weld-thru" primer.

[gmwillys]

Looking good Catlewis. The Epoxy primer isn't as heat affected as other primers. A drill point just touching the steel underneath is enough to secure a good surface to weld to. I use weld through primers and have had lots of success. But in a pinch, I'll use a rattle can of epoxy primer to apply a coat in between the pieces.

[Catlewis]

Thanks to the nearly 100 percent humidity over the weekend, it seems I pulled off another successful rattle can paint job on the hood. Certainly nothing compared to a real automotive type paint quality, but certainly works for how I intend using this Jeep. Still need to paint the cowl and grille. Going to temporarily install the roof & doors tonight. Planning to move the Jeep outside as I need the garage space for some emergency truck repairs. 1088010881

[bmorgil]

Looks pretty good Cat! Your method sure does make it a lot more convenient.

[gmwillys]

Looking great!

[Catlewis]

Hauled the old hardtop inside garage last evening an removed the headliner + dome light to eradicate large mouse colony. Tried to save the headliner material however it was unsalvageable, saturated with mouse urine / stink! Pulled it all out including the nests and mixed up a spray bottle of 50/50 clorox bleach + water and sprayed the entire surface several times. Then scrubbed with soap and water. Smell seems to be gone, time to start rust repairs on the top when I get back on this project in a couple weeks. 1088210883

[Catlewis]

Going to set the roof back on temporarily this afternoon and move the Jeep to another building while doing some work on my truck. Still need to finish the rattle can paint job on cowl and grill.
10884

[bmorgil]

Mice can be incredibly destructive. It looks like the top survived. The top is a super nice feature for a Jeep your going to "kick" around in!

[LarrBeard]

Mice - little bas&^%$s!..

The '48 sat in an old barn for a long time and a new pole barn as well - and the mice build a fortress in the bell housing. It was packed almost as tightly as a hay bale. The smell did not go away until well after we finished bead blasting the bell housing and etch priming the sheet metal.

[Catlewis]

Top temporarily installed and moved the Jeep last evening. Hate to stop working as it seems to be getting close to a "first drive". Also a picture of why the Jeep needs to move. Gotta make some truck repairs! 10885 10886

[bmorgil]

Yikes the truck is hurt!

I know what you mean, you just have to make yourself stop sometimes. The closer it gets the more you think, well a few hours more....

[Catlewis]

[QUOTE=bmorgil;22651]Yikes the truck is hurt!

Working on brakes. does anyone know which shoe goes towards the rear? Appears each pair has one shoe with more friction material. when I disassembled the shoe smaller amount was towards the rear? just want to make certain this is correct.

[bmorgil]

This is a great question. Somewhere we had a discussion about this.

In the Universal manual, it states, "Note: On some vehicles the lining on the forward shoe is longer than the lining on the rear shoe."

Through the years, general mechanics practice has always been to put the small shoe to the front and the long shoe to the rear. In the early 40's and 50's it was either way. Eventually the general consensuses among manufacturers was, the forward shoe received more pressure from the force of the stopping vehicle compressing the drum rearward, therefore requiring less surface area than the rear of the drum. The older thought was the extra brake material in the front of the drum will provide more stopping power because of the weight of the vehicle compressing the drum rearward. In the end now a days if you are working on drums, the small shoe goes to the front.

I personally think it makes little difference. I always put the small shoe forward because that's how I was taught.

Here it is: https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2342-Longer-brake-shoe-in-front-or-back

[Catlewis]

Clear as mud!

[Catlewis]

Google search regarding proper orientation of mismatched brake shoe configurations seems to indicate the small shoe should be mounted on the front while the larger one is to the rear. When I diassembled / removed the rear drum on this Jeep, the large shoe was towards the front / small towards the rear. I noticed the wear characteristics were very disproportional as the big shoe had much more friction material remaining while the small shoe is extremely thin. Which is why I questioned if the previous mechanic installed the shoes incorrectly. I'm going to reassemble with small shoe forward.

[bmorgil]

There are a few different types of drum brakes that were and are used on automobiles. Here are some. Simplex, Duplex, Uni-servo, Duo-servo, and Duo-Duplex. There are even a few other modifications of these. In general the force generated changes somewhat depending on the design. The attached illustration from Wikipedia shows how the force relates to the design. The distribution of the force is highlighted in black. So the design matters but, which shoe goes where is still up to how you want the brake to behave. If the long shoe is placed in a high force area for the design you have, the brakes will be more aggressive than if the shoes are reversed. Will you feel the difference, I don't think so. It could effect the wear. You would want the "most shoe" in the high force area for the best length of wear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_brake

[56willys]

When I did brakes on Flossy. The old shoes were larger towards the front/smaller towards the rear. The new shoes I got (raybestos brand) were all equal.

[Catlewis]

Have all of the brakes disassembled right now. Three wheels had large shoe towards the rear, one with large shoe towards front. Noticed in Kaiser Willys parts book it specifically states that large shoe goes towards the front. Brake system will be 100% new other than the drums when complete. Including new dual res master and all new lines [hard and soft]. I'll tackle the parking brake later.

[LarrBeard]

Catlewis:

You are indeed a wise man to put so much effort into brakes. Some guys let brakes be an afterthought and their biggest effort is to just get a Jeep running.

Getting it to stop is as critical as getting it running. There was a TV commercial a year or so ago that had the tag line; "Well, something will stop it" - not a good approach to Jeeps.

Take a hard look at your drums. On the '48 the drums were right at the reject limit, so we used new drums. Then about a year later, (not that many miles) the brakes got a bit wonky. They surged and had a screech and shudder as the truck came to a complete stop. It turned out that even the new drums were out of round - so look them over carefully. Even if they are not too worn, check for concentricity.

Take care and keep us informed on the project - it's looking good,'

[bmorgil]

Cat, where did you see that reference for the big shoe to the front? That is interesting because you have a '65. That should be a Duo-Servo design in 65'. The largest force would be to the rear. In that design for best wear the large shoe should go to the rear and the small shoe should go to the front. Usually the long shoe goes to the front in the older Simplex design like the Early MB's and CJ's. Once again however, it depends on how you want the brakes to behave.

This is interesting because it would indicate in the 65' they were more interested in stopping power over wear. This would explain somewhat why in the Universal Manual, it indicates they can go either way. It must come down to individual mechanical preference of the installing mechanic. In any event they must all be installed the same way on each wheel in the front and the rear, left to right.

[Catlewis]

Cat, where did you see that reference for the big shoe to the front? That is interesting because you have a '65. That should be a Duo-Servo design in 65'. The largest force would be to the rear. In that design for best wear the large shoe should go to the rear and the small shoe should go to the front. Usually the long shoe goes to the front in the older Simplex design like the Early MB's and CJ's. Once again however, it depends on how you want the brakes to behave.

This is interesting because it would indicate in the 65' they were more interested in stopping power over wear. This would explain somewhat why in the Universal Manual, it indicates they can go either way. It must come down to individual mechanical preference of the installing mechanic. In any event they must all be installed the same way on each wheel in the front and the rear, left to right.

It's on page 106 in the 2023 catalog. It's located in the lower right corner of the parts illustrations [which are located at the top of page] near the binding. "TIP: BRAKE SHOES" The primary shoe has the longer padding and is the one that goes in the front.

Also per the illustrations you provided previously I would guess this braking system is "Simplex". Single wheel cylinder, with one hold down pin per shoe and adjuster at the bottom.

[bmorgil]

That would do it Cat. The Simplex would have the big shoe to the front for best wear.

[Catlewis]

That would do it Cat. The Simplex would have the big shoe to the front for best wear.
Brakes clean-up.1101511016110171101811019

[bmorgil]

Looking Great Cat!

That is a Duo-Servo design. The big shoe goes to the back, small shoe to the front for best wear and stopping power. I think that is the way they all were with self adjusters.

[Catlewis]

Looking Great Cat!

That is a Duo-Servo design. The big shoe goes to the back, small shoe to the front for best wear and stopping power. I think that is the way they all were with self adjusters.
I'm going to have a million dollar Jeep! One guess as to which of these cost more....... Yep, you guessed it, the little handful of pins and clips cost more than this very nice hub puller!1102011021

[bmorgil]

That is "Thee Hub Puller" that is for sure!

One thing definitely happens when auto's start to get old, the harder the parts are to find, the more they cost.

[LarrBeard]

Well, we all have "Million Dollar Jeeps", we just don't admit it to our wives.