Wulfies nostalgia project

[Wulfie]

Bought this ol girl a few months ago. I always wanted a jeep since I was a kid. My step dad took me and my brother riding in a jeep back in the late 40'sa on our ranch. We went every where even down in the bottom of the creek. Ever since I wanted one. Well here it is. Got cj2a not completely complete and hacked up frame and F 134 engine from a cj3b was told. No data plates on anything. There is tub serial # 167884 and tail gate ser # 167885, engine ser. # 3J40413. Just got engine off to machine shop. Plan is to take front part of cj3b frame and marry it to rear half of cj2a frame and reuse L134 engine. Reason for marriage of two frames is the cj2a frame front end Bubba hacked it up and it has cracks in front cross member, Bubba also hacked back off of the cj3b frame. The cj2a L134 engine was free but no compression. The F 134 engine may be frozen . In process of taking F134 engine out of its frame to remove front engine mounting plate to hopefully swap it to L 134 engine so that it will mount in cj3b frame without moving motor mounts.

[bmorgil]

Looking like a pretty cool project Wulfie!

[Wulfie]

Finally got the front axle out, its a 25, didnt know what it was until I got it cleaned up a bit. Had a RZEPPA axle in it. Bubba really did a number on the axle nuts , chisled it away ha. He put left wheel hub on right rear ha. Found two shims on top right upper bearing cap none on bottom. Found no shims left front upper bearing cap , but one shim on left front lower ha. Mabey bubba got really confused , bye the way does anyone have bubbas number ?

[51 CJ3]

Bubba does some interesting things. He put a CJ2 tub on my CJ3A frame while keeping the manual starter linkage, 3A windshield and M38 hood, cut the threads off one axle and reversed the bearing caps inside the front differential to go with some interesting wiring techniques on the 12 volt conversion. The starter linkage doesn’t quite line up correctly so it can be a bear to mash the starter button on the floor. He also welded on custom bumpers but they don’t look too bad.

[bmorgil]

Bubba usually works harder hacking it up than he would have spent doing it the right way. Sometimes Bubba has a last name ... cheap or broke! I have seen some "economical improvements" that are downright scary.

[51 CJ3]

I forgot the brakes. It appears to be the Chevy disc conversion on the front. The rear are original with the lines pinched shut because it has an original master cylinder. I wouldn’t want to do any semi-serious rock crawling with it but it does stop fine for normal use with front brakes only. I haven’t decided yet if I will upgrade the master cylinder and reconnect the rear brakes or cap the lines proper. Money will probably dictate that decision when the time comes.

[Wulfie]

Finally got the frames stripped enough to do the frame transplant. Marked both frames where Im gonna cut ,then clamped the pieces together and welded em up . Welded supports inside frame where attached. The cuts were not perfect but made it work.

[bmorgil]

Looking good Wulfie! Its healed. It looks like its going to be a successful spinal transplant.

[Wulfie]

Decided to go with epoxy for fix for the block. Gonna use Belzona 1111, its expensive but what do I have to loose and what do I have to gaine ? L 134 block that is usable I hope. Pic 2 is block being prepared for topical patch. Drill stop cracks and put some plugs along cracks. Used red lock tight to set bolts, then cut off heads of bolts (grade 8) and groved out cracks in block. Pic 4 patient ready to receive advanced topical patch . Have to wait until tomorrow to apply patch due to fast set up time . At 77 degrees farenheightf set time is 15 minutes. Its getting warm down here in Texas up into the mid 90's now, so early morning mix and apply. Suppose to be in low 70's in the morning.

[Wulfie]

Saw this gear advertised and decided to try it. Its medal gear to replace fiber cam gear in L 134 engine. Hope it works out ok.

[LarrBeard]

I think you have a pretty fair chance of making that fix work. It is not "by the book", but a lot better than most Bubba fixes. The crack is on the exterior of the block and it is not somewhere that is going to get really hot (like around a valve seat).

The machine shops on the destroyer tenders use Belzona to rebuild the blades on centrifugal pumps that had eroded away from cavitation.

[Wulfie]

First pic is after I applied the patch . I taped off the area to apply patch, then few minutes after removed tape. Second pic is after 3or 4 hours put it under heat lamp of heat gun for several hours to increase strength. I put it in the sun . After it cured a while, it looked like brand new steel.

[Wulfie]

Got a lil more done today . Didnt have rear cross member so got one from Walck . Finally got around and got the rear cross member installed or fitted up , not installed .Also removed the v shape rear cross member support and working to get it fitted up. Why was the v support not right ? The new one. Way to long.

[bmorgil]

The rear support might be set up to fit all the CJ's, trim to fit. The early will be shorter than the later CJ's.

[gmwillys]

Bmorgil is correct. The majority of the reproduction parts are designed to fit several different models, so some trimming is required to fit the early, shorter frames. Your rear crossmember looks great.

[Wulfie]

Got the v brace fitted up. And tried to do some sand blasting on frame but it was a pity, not enough air to run properly, got some done but really a Bubba job, so did the hardest parts to get too , going to plan B, OSHPO ,for the finish. Question does any body make a copy of this battery tray or just use the generic one ? Most replacement trays Ive seen do not have the groove in front of tray .

[bmorgil]

The exact tray might be tough to find, but I used one of these.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nsearch/?q=battery%20tray

[gmwillys]

I used the one from KW on our 2A. It worked out well, and fit perfectly.

[Wulfie]

Got a few more things done. Repaired the grill mounts on the frame . And cut off center grill mount from the cj2a frame and gonna mount it on the cj3b frame . But running into front fender mounting issues , some of the holes to mount fender from cj2a frame do not jibe with the cj3a frame. Front shock mount on cj3b frame is different than the front shock mount on cj2a frame and causing fitment issues with fenders. Only have pics of the outer grill mounts and the center bracket to be welded on. I want the grill and fenders to bolt up for proper center grill placement of the center bracket. The first pic shows no center grill bracket second pic shows bracket that I removed from cj2a frame and gonna weld it approximately where it shows in pic 2.

[gmwillys]

In my opinion, I would fix the fenders to where they fit the 3B frame to clear the shock mounts. Mark the spot that the shock mount is on the 3B frame, then cut it out. Take the metal removed to fill in the 2A shock mount hole.

[Wulfie]

In my opinion, I would fix the fenders to where they fit the 3B frame to clear the shock mounts. Mark the spot that the shock mount is on the 3B frame, then cut it out. Take the metal removed to fill in the 2A shock mount hole.

Im gonna fit fenders up to cj3b frame. Gonna have to remove a lil material from left fender where it interfears with shock mount. First pic shows where left fender is contacting rear of front shock mount bracket. Right side is really alright no issues except for aft of fender there is a hole to mount rear of fender to frame , hole is missing on cj3b frame. Second pic shows shock in lower left corner of pic the shock mount for the cj2a , which is different then cj3b .

[Wulfie]

Getting the frame ready for the primer after OSHPO bath, tired of looking at flash rust. Also got the center grill tab located and welded to front cross member. Also finally found a machine shop in Corpus Christy Texas, to bore and grind valves and install valve guides, and grind crank, the owner says he is the only shop left that does cranks there. Also a question about these springs in pic , are they usable or should be replaced ? They are pretty rust in between each spring .

[LarrBeard]

"Also a question about these springs in pic , are they usable or should be replaced ? They are pretty rust in between each spring ."

I'm cheap. so take this advice with that in mind. If you don't see any broken leaves, I'd clean them up as well as you can and I'd oil them very well to let the leaves slide easier.

But - if they look like this one - no brainer.

[Wulfie]

"Also a question about these springs in pic , are they usable or should be replaced ? They are pretty rust in between each spring ."

I'm cheap. so take this advice with that in mind. If you don't see any broken leaves, I'd clean them up as well as you can and I'd oil them very well to let the leaves slide easier.

But - if they look like this one - no brainer.

Thanks Larry , I guess I got as good as it gets for 70 year old springs. Taking your lead and gonna clean em up and see how they fly. I saw some at Debellas for 120 apiece which is not a bad price . Walcks wants I think 175 each.

[Wulfie]

Got the frame in prime. Man what a difference new paint makes ! The fan is just in OSHPO in that pic. Got the tranny cross member also primed , rear cross member and V support also , I guess I shoulda included them in pic , sry about that.

[bmorgil]

Looking like its ready for reassembly now Wulfie!

[Wulfie]

Ha ,ha ,ha maby next year.

[Wulfie]

Well got on the springs ! Cleaned em up and then osphoed em up and started painting. I got a few pics here to show what I got in the item of springs. Had set of cj2a springs and set of springs that came off of cj3b . Well got to cleaning them up and oh i ordered the bolt that holds the stack together, wyllys calls em , spring centering stack bolt , well a lot of peeps go by different names . Ordered 5/16 by 1 3/4 inch. During clean up i finally measured spring stack , 2 inches. So found some more bolts on line finally, not exzactly i wanted but a lil trimming and they will do. First pic is about two stacks that were together , one stack higher than the other . Second pic shows difference . Third pic shows difference in length. Fourth pic shows difference in spring eye shapes . The larger eyes in bottom spring in fourth pic is wallered out shape , as compared to the two top spring eyes. By the way the two top springs in fourth pic are truck springs.

[Wulfie]

First pic is the front springs off of the cj3b frame which im gonna put back on , they in good shape. The pic shows an extra plate in one of the stacks, there is about one leaf difference in the two stacks , think im gonna take that lil plate of and make em more even in hight. Paint im using to paint springs, just painting outside of stack not in between each spring. Waiting on new center bolts , then take em apart clean up and paint.

[Wulfie]

Finally got old battery box removed and the new fitted up and ready to weld. Got box of engine rebuild kit in.

[Wulfie]

Box of engine rebuild kit.

[bmorgil]

You are on a roll now! I recognize that "Box-0-Parts"! Another 134 will breathe again.

[LarrBeard]

Dern that's plumb. Most of us are at least a half-bubble off plumb.

[LarrBeard]

A box-o-goodies; Christmas in June!

[Wulfie]

A box-o-goodies; Christmas in June!

But its hotter than the fourth of July!

[Wulfie]

Dern that's plumb. Most of us are at least a half-bubble off plumb.

If it hadent been sitting on the front shock bracket rivit it would have been off .

[Wulfie]

Well been a while, heres some updates. Got frame in black , got front axle in red , getting ready to put front axle on frame , got new rear springs and some shackles . First pic is rear end being cleaned up and inspected. Removed front axle cover ,cleaned up and flushed out the pumpkin. Found gears in great shape, replaced inner axle oil seals ,replaced knuckle king pin bearings , proceeded to check pull on steering and tried to use digital fishing scales but they would not work in vertical position so ordered spring scale from Amazon . Next pic is frame in red then in black. last pic is front axle in red ran outa black , so gota make another paint run .

[bmorgil]

Its coming along nicely! I love the axle "pile". Brings back memories.

[Wulfie]

Its coming along nicely! I love the axle "pile". Brings back memories.

Tnx bmorgil

[LarrBeard]

You always want to take the differentials apart - there are surprises that might be in there if you "assume" things are going to be OK.

All that was between me and a disaster was a thin eroded safety wire. That bolt head could have brought things to a quick halt!

[Wulfie]

Tnx Mr LarrBeard , did remove ring gear ,had locking tabs :) . Working on rear axle now cleaning up and getting into housing , rear axle may be surprising , looks like more weathering than the front end . Got one hub off but was challenging but didnt have to use heat ,which is good ,but havent done the other one yet.

[bmorgil]

That's a good puller Wulfie, you cant go after it better than that.

[Wulfie]

Learned a new trick while using it. After a few turns I would relieve the stress with ball peen hammer by tapping brake drum which would relieve stress , it turned easier after each tapping session.

[gmwillys]

Hammer taps are good for a lot of things. You feel better, and it helps to motivate things to move along.

[Wulfie]

Some peeps need tapping to move em along.

[Wulfie]

Got a lil more done ,but hit snag in rear ends . The first rear end I started on was from the cj2a frame , but did only partial tear down because , i decided to use the front end axle from the cj3b frame so thought that i should go with the cj3b rear axle. Well trick on me , one end of the cj3b axle was in bad shape , opening was to badly rusted to be used. So went to the first axle I started on. On busting the pumpkin found spider gears not in good shape , too lose in my opinion and lil pitted .So went to plan B ,decided to use ring gear and pinion outa cj3b rear end ,bearings were in good shape and spider gears were nice . Will replace bearings . Waiting on shims . Got parts in ,look in box . Brake shoes , lines , some brake cylinders and master cylinder , shim kit for front king pin bearings and other stuff . Second pic is rear axle ring and pinion swap about to take place . Third pic off with the old and on with the new , pic shows how I got em off , used puller from Horrible Freight it worked with a lil modification , shoulda had the next size puller I think , but with a lil stress reliving it worked. Shes trying to get up on her feet . After figuring out what it is gonna cost to rebuild body panels decided to go with after market body, called Pete Debella and he said none available until after first of next year and has long waiting list ,so called Walcks and had MD Wan cj2a body in stock so got it coming and be here next week . Last pic shoulda been third . The cj2a rear axle housing was in reality a MB rear end , found it painted in olive green color no black paint underneath .

[bmorgil]

The 1944 thru 1949 and early into 1950 MB/CJ, used the model 41 Salisbury axle. It was replaced by the newer model 44 Dana. A 1950 CJ3A will have a model 41 early and a model 44 in the later production. The ring and pinion in the 41 is different than in the 44. The pinion location is different in the 41 model.
As long as the CJ3A axle is a 41 you are all set.

Moving along Wulfie!

[Wulfie]

How do you identify the 41 axle from the dana 44 ? Never mind found identification picture chart of different axles , the 41 is round in basic shape viewed from rear end the dana 44 is more squashed round shape , very different shape easy to determine by visual outside look .

[Wulfie]

Need some guidance bmorgil . Trying to set up this rear end axle . Got some pics of the pattern ,looks like I might have to go in with pinion gear some more . What you think ? Need a link to patterns if you have or a place to find em. First pic is the drive side ,looks to be hitting on the heel , there abouts. Second pic cost side , looks to be hitting toe end . Any comments would be helpful.
.

[gmwillys]

Dr. Dana will be by shortly, but here is some helpful diagrams/explanations to setting up a ring and pinion. From your pictures, you are definitely in the ball park of being properly set. I would try one more shim to gain a touch more contact, to center the pattern on the ring gear tooth. Bmorgil is the master at the driveline, and we will see what he thinks on the matter.

https://www.yukongear.com/blogs/how-to-create-read-ring-gear-patterns_1

https://www.sierragear.com/differential-repair-help-topics/ring-and-pinion-gear-pattern/

[bmorgil]

It can be very difficult to get a good pattern read on a used gear. That said you can get a good idea of tooth contact. First you need more load on the output so the pattern will print a little better. Once you have a good load on the gears, pay attention to the drive side. The coast is what it is. If there are complaints of coast noise, then worry about it.

In your photo the pinion is not deep enough. You need to look for a spot that is showing good contact as close to the middle of the gear tooth as possible. You will get the biggest pattern changes from the pinion position. Always start with the pinion position. If it was mine I would add about .020" on the pinion and try to move the contact pattern down into the tooth (providing the backlash is correct). The pattern will move forward on the pinion and deeper into the root as the pinion moves in towards the ring gear. The pattern will also move forward towards the toe of the pinion gear. It is normal to have a new gear set show the contact towards the toe. This is OK. The pattern will move back towards the heel and become more "full" as load increases. The more used the gears are the bigger the pattern will be. On well worn gears you may end up with the pattern covering the whole tooth. That's OK as long as the backlash is correct.

Try to get a pattern near the center of the gear tooth. Make sure to adjust backlash as you go. As the pinion gets closer to the ring gear backlash will decrease and it will change the pattern. The reverse is also true. As the backlash increases it will change the pattern. Stay with the pinion, adjusting the backlash as you go.

Setting up an axle is a bit of an art because if you can hit it in a couple of tries, you will save a lot of time and money. I have looked at a lot of patterns and adjusted till I could not move my arms anymore. It can be tough if you are chasing noise. Not so bad if you just need a good pattern that will last and not too noisy. The most difficult time I ever had was getting the high end "Lingenfelter" Corvettes in the late '90's to run quiet. In a Vette you sit almost on top of the differential. If it is slightly off on the ring and pinion pattern, you will hear it. Especially at high RPM. In a Jeep it just needs to be close. Contact in the middle of the tooth as best you can. Towards the toe of the pinion is OK. Try it again and lets see another pic Wulfie!

Addition: Here is something I use to help myself set these things up in a fairly quick manner, relatively speaking.

The top of the tooth, the "Top Land" will make a straight line in the gear pattern if it strikes the actual face of the tooth. You do not want the top of the tooth striking the face of the tooth and making that straight line. That is too far off. It will make noise and it will be weak and it will run hot. If I do not see that straight line, I am very tempted depending on the application, to let it go.

Look at Wulfies pic. You can see the straight line in the paint. It is the top of the tooth striking. That is why I am saying move it a bunch. It should swing down in and show you how close you were. It is either going to stop making that straight line, or it is going to make a straight line going the other way. A straight line the other way is a big clue you were close. Split the difference and things are going to hone in for you. Look at the actual photos gm provided. You can see the straight line in the "bad" pattern. Notice it is not there in the "good" pattern. Also notice they don't seem to care where the pattern is as long as it is near the middle and there is no straight line appearing at the top or the bottom of the tooth.

So there it is. Don't think I ever gave up that tip. If it doesn't make any sense, I seldom do.

If this is confusing, "fahget" about it! Haha, I would be glad to try to clarify or sketch it out. Now a day's the machining capabilities are such that you can set up a gear set quite a bit easier, and with tooling. The gear marking method is still a gold standard in my book if you know what you are looking for. It would be good to make sure we all can pass it on.

[Wulfie]

Tnx bmorgil , found good pics of correct contact and lil explanation how . Heres a good pictorial of building d 44 and useful tips ," DANA 44 pictorial build NAXJA " . I will trudge along need to get more bearings and inner pinion race to make the on and off for the set up .

[Wulfie]

Tnx gmwillys , I finally found good pic of ideal contact pattern . Plus bmorgil book on how . You guys have been very helpful. Found site that makes kits of the ring gear bearings and pinion race for easy on and off but for the 30 spline shaft

[gmwillys]

See, we can all learn a little bit more than we thought we knew. I live in a world where diffs make noise/sing. Failures are not common except the occasional haunting vibration. Our diffs, (four per vehicle) are hard mounted to the hull, so the noise reverberates through the chassis. In the days of Sportsman class dirt track racing, we would set up Ford third members with different gear ratios for the variety of different track lengths and conditions. Then we invested in quick change transmissions to where we could change out the gearing in minutes, in between heats. Long story short, as long as the ring and pinion where contacting in the center of the ring gear, we thought we were golden. We didn't look at sharp lines in the pattern, because noise didn't matter. I'll have to save this thread in the memory bank for future diff building.

[bmorgil]

In your case gm, those gears were not made to be quiet, just brutally strong. There is a lot to making a gear set quiet so a Cad owner doesn't complain. Strength isn't always the main criteria. The first introduction of a Dana IRS into a Corvette, was a proto-type modified fork lift axle. The initial ring and pinion was not quiet to say the least. That was long ago.

You have too curved surfaces that you are going to try to get to touch on their high spots for lack of a better explanation. The closer you get to that spot the quieter the gears will become and the more efficient. The gear design is such that there is a wiping action between the teeth as they mesh. You want to be right on that spot on the teeth where the contact is the best, to hit the sweet spot for everything. The gear set will still only be as quiet as its tooth profile and machining. Cheap gears can be impossible to get any pattern on.

[Wulfie]

Got a box today from Walcks ,good peeps. look inside the box see what u can see . Was thinking to do the repair panels myself but after fingering out what I need cost wise , it was in my best interest to spend money on new body . Besides its 100 degree days here not interested in welding at this time lol. Think ill restore the body this winter ? Been working on getting front axle back together then finish rear axle . The box was bolted down to the pallets in 5 places , was wondering why I couldnt move it much until discovered bolt down.

[bmorgil]

So far so good Wulfie! My crate was definitely not in good shape as yours was. I had some shipping damage to the crate which was much more fragile than yours. The body kit is the way to go if its just to far gone for your liking. The little bit of work you might need to do to fit it is worth it. I think a lot of people expect them to just bolt right on. I expected to have to do some "fitting".

[Wulfie]

You so wright bmorgil . Carol informed me about some of the doings I had to do . Now I got big incentive to get them shimmers in !

[gmwillys]

What, 100 degree days are perfect days to weld panels... I spent the majority of last week under the welding hood. Too warm to wear a welding jacket, so tank top and shorts it was. My Bride thinks I'm nuts.she may be right.

[bmorgil]

Your Bride is in good company!

[LarrBeard]

"My Bride thinks I'm nuts."

Yes dear, I'm sure you're right.

[Wulfie]

Some more trial patterns , seems like I failed again to get the ideal pattern. Bmorgil suggested I go in ..02 on pinion did that now looks like went in to much. So going to come out .01 and run pattern again. Before I had not enough now too much so split it and maby Goldie Locks . The pics are not that great but appears in to deep. First pic coast side second drive , but its not very clear gonna try rag drag next time maby get better defined pattern. Bmorgil if I take .01 off the gear pinion side do I take .01 off the preload side ?

[51 CJ3]

Some more trial patterns , seems like I failed again to get the ideal pattern. Bmorgil suggested I go in .20 on pinion did that now looks like went in to much. So going to come out .10 and run pattern again. Before I had not enough now too much so split it and maby Goldie Locks . The pics are not that great but appears in to deep. First pic coast side second drive , but its not very clear gonna try rag drag next time maby get better defined pattern. Bmorgil if I take .10 off the gear pinion side do I take .10 off the preload side ?

Did you really do .20 (2 tenths) or .020 (20 thousandth's)? The recommendation I read said .020.

[Wulfie]

No lol. I meant 20 thousandth . .02 ! Sry my bad .

[bmorgil]

You are a lot closer than you think. Don't change anything yet. I cant see the pattern on the drive side very well, you don't have enough load on the ring gear. The shadow I do see looks like it is wide in all directions and positioned to the toe. If that is it you are there. I cant see it however so it is very possible "wishful thinking"! The coast side is too deep. That will howl when you back off the gas. Get the drive side first. Make sure the backlash is correct. On a used gear set use the larger specification for backlash (.010"). We might tweak the coast side with the backlash. More on that later if needed.

You are on track. The number was twenty thousands on the shim. Lets see what a good clear mark looks like. More drag on the ring gear. You should not be able to turn the pinion easily by hand. If you are pushing something against the ring gear, be careful you don't want to crack the axle housing. Use a wedge block of wood (like a doorstop) or nylon against the ring gear and the case. I did see a guy break the case using a crowbar against the ring gear. Roll the ring and pinion several revolutions with load. Look for the marks on the opposite side of the paint spot. See what the marks look like out of the paint. Your getting close. Shoot pics of the painted spot and the unpainted spots where the gear transfers the paint.

If you have the preload set on the carrier bearings (you should have .015" of preload), just move shims from one side to the other to change backlash. Keep the total shim pack the same. So take from one side and add them to the other.

[Wulfie]

Will get a better pic with load but my preload on carrier bearings is not right yet. How do you know when u get the proper pre load on carrier bearings ? Im gonna get a new set of carrier bearings and make some set up bearings . This reminds me of the movies when they played serials when I was a kid ," Commando Cody " comes to mind had to wait a week for the next serial ha.

[bmorgil]

You need to set the carrier preload without the pinion in. With no pinion it should take a firm steady pull to rotate the ring gear. It is hard to measure but if you put a torque wrench on a ring gear bolt, at least 50 or so inch pounds to rotate it. To set it by the book, you find the right amount of shims to obtain a "slip fit" of the carrier in the axle's housing. Then .015" is added to the bearings to obtain the proper preload. Once you "feel" one assembled this way, you will always know what the proper preload feels like when you pull on the ring gear with no pinion in the housing. The second link below address the set up of the carrier preload pretty well.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2820-1953-M38A1-differential-setup/page2

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2308-Pinion-shimming

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2323-Spicer-23-2-differential-backlash-question

I have seen guys make their own axle dummy bearings for setting up axles. It works quite well. Take a used set of bearings and hone with a "brake cylinder hone", the I.D. of the races until they will slip on the carrier and the pinion respectively. You can also epoxy the bearings together to make the "tool" into a solid dummy bearing. This makes it much easier. Use the slip fit bearings to quickly swap the shims in and out until you get it set.

[Wulfie]

Got some clearer pics bmorgil . First one drive side and other coast . Still looks like I need to move pinion out some . But my ring bearings not set right yet , the preload . Looks like drive side hitting on more of the toes and to deep. If not still to clear ill try again .

[bmorgil]

You are good at this Wulfie. I am in agreement with you. There are some clues. Look at the "ghost" marks where there wasn't paint. The marks left by the teeth almost match the original wear pattern. You are very close. I agree it is to deep. I am concerned about your carrier bearings not being set. You need to have them set before the final pattern. That said, I have to think bring it back out about .010" and tighten up the carrier bearing preload (first) before the pattern check. Notice how now, the drive and coast side are closer to the same deep contact pattern and moving to the toe on the drive and the middle on the coast side. That pattern is almost there, a little too deep. Your .020" adjustment successfully moved it right through the sweet spot. That tells us you were within .020". Since it moved it from too shallow to too deep, you know you were within .010" of hitting it.

I misinterpreted your question about the preload shim change. I was talking about the carrier shim pack. You are correct the preload will change on the pinion as you move it. Hold off on the pinion preload adjustment until you are done with pinion depth. Remove most of the shims from the preload and tighten the pinion nut gently until you achieve some preload (not too tight you will ruin the bearing). Set the pinion depth and then go back and set the preload.

Addition: Shoot pics of the pinion if you can get the camera in there. The long teeth also give some good indications where the paint transfers from the ring gear. I have always found it to be faster to make large changes in the shims until you can successfully go past optimum and then bring it back. I find this method much quicker than "sneaking up" on the pattern.

[Wulfie]

Tnx bmorgil , after lasft pattern i took out .007 but havent tried it until i get carrier pre load set up . I assume the .015 is divided between the 2 sides ?

[bmorgil]

The .015 is added to the pinion gear side, once the total amount of shims required to move the ring gear to Zero lash is obtained. The procedure to get it correct is to find the amount of shims required to slip the carrier into the axle housing to a slip (Line to Line) fit. Then you remove the shims and install the ring gear and the pinion. You then force the pinion into the ring gear while indicating the amount of travel. Then you place that amount of shims from the total amount you measured for a slip fit, on the ring gear side. Now you place the remainder of the shims on the pinion gear side PLUS the .015" required for preload. The .015" pushes the ring gear away from the pinion for backlash and provides the preload. The carrier is now a .015" press in fit into the housing. This should put the backlash within spec. From now on as you adjust backlash you remove shims from one side and move them to the other side. On a used ring and pinion shoot for .010" of backlash. If it needs to be less it will show up in the pattern.

After another look, I was also thinking .007" on the pinion. It looks close.

[Wulfie]

Got another addition to pic of gears , first drive side second coast side . Also some shoes for "RIPPER" , and another bunch of goodies from Walcks , they sure pack em good . Got the .01 backlash right now if nothing changes lol. Suspect maby one more move out on the pinion , a lil more . Wish I had done the .01 .

[bmorgil]

Man that's close. Classic used gear set, wont leave a good mark unless its in the exact spot as before. I am in agreement again, damn I though .007" also. Looks like the .010" would have done it, .002" or .003" more might show a better pattern. Because the gears have run together for so long, it will be difficult to get a good print on the pattern unless you hit it exactly in the position it was in when it came apart. We are looking for a clean spot near the center of the tooth. If you look hard you can see you almost have a nice contact. It is not a picture perfect clean spot like a new gear set but, it is there just not real clear. Make sure to hold the .010" backlash.

And "Ripper's" got a new pair of shoes!

[Wulfie]

Thinking .003 . And the carrier pre load seems correct now , added .014 to teeth side . Tight fit now around 40 inch pounds . If I move pinion out will it change backlash , which I think it will.

[bmorgil]

Yes as you move the pinion out it will change backlash. You aren't going very far. It may stay in spec.

[Wulfie]

Got her done not ideal but im going with it , First pic drive side , second coast , third , pattern in circle is what its close too I think.

[bmorgil]

The pinion is a little too "shallow" or you need to decrease the backlash. What is the backlash? Look at the coast side. The sharp line at the top of the tooth indicates the top land of the tooth is striking on the coast side. On the drive side the contact is good, just to the heal of the ring gear tooth. Moving the pinion in will bring those two things closer together. Moving the pinion in should move the coast side out of the "strike zone" and bring the drive side closer to the middle. Decreasing the backlash will have a similar effect, though less. How far did you move it from the last adjustment? It looks like it must have been very close the last time.

Wullfie I think you are all over it. However I think you were closer on the last set up (prior to this one). It was very close the last time. Better than it is now in my opinion. I would have been tempted to run it. The only thing about the last pattern before this one, is the slight deep contact (light straight line) on the coast side at the root of the tooth. A little more backlash or, a very slight pinion movement out and that was probably as close as you are going to get. I would go back to the last set up and either vary the backlash slightly or, move the pinion slightly, depending on what these current changes were. As you chase it remember, nothing will be more difficult to get a good pattern on than a well used gear set!

[Wulfie]

I moved it .003 out , the backlash was .008 , Im gonna go to other things for now ,let my patience return , then work on it some more. When I do ill move it back in .002. I see the sharp line ur talking about.

[gmwillys]

Sometimes, you just have to back away from project. Expensive things happen when pushing too hard to make something perfect. TJ and I like the sit on a bucket, look at the problem, have a beer or three, then have a Winston or two to regulate the nerves. More often then not, when you get back to it, it often falls right together. Most of the time...

[bmorgil]

I think you are very close. Move the pinion back and see if you can hold the backlash close to .009" - .010".. I think that's as good as it will get. Sometimes it does help to walk away from it for a while! You had a usable pattern the time before the last set up. It should come in nice this time.

[Wulfie]

working on breaks and tires and hubs , cleaned parts and painted .

[bmorgil]

There's always plenty to work on! You sure are making steady progress.

[Wulfie]

Well started on rims and tires but found out I made a mistake . Thought I had 4 good 16 inch rims but found out this morning I only had 1 good 16 in rim . Had 2 sets or rims 16 inch set and 15 inch set , the 16 inchers had old rags on em ,first one cleaned up nicely so expected the other ones were also in good shape but found out after taking the old tires off not the case . So went and checked the 15 inchers they were good enough to clean up but no 15 inch tires . So I ordered 3 new 16 inch rims , and 2 new brake drums . Here is what the tire looks like mounted on , only one at this time so going on too brake lines and brake cylinders. They are LINGLONG , sounds Chines but they made in Thailandl , saw em on the internet that a guy had bought for his jeep and he liked em, so went for em . $ 135 each ,free shipping . Found on Amazon. 8 ply rating . CROSSWIND MT LT225/75R16

[bmorgil]

Those things do have some teeth!

[Wulfie]

Yea , we really dont need teeth on tires right now , we in drought spell down here . Weather man in our area said it would take 22 inches of rain to get us back to normal , well that means Hurricane weather , ha Harvey only gave us 17 inches , Houston got it all .

[51 CJ3]

We were upgraded yesterday to severe drought and it’s not even the hot and dry part of the year yet. Going broke trying to keep the shop below 90 and the house below 80. Forget any aircraft maintenance I wanted to do. As soon as the sun hits the hangars it gets hot pretty quick.

[bmorgil]

Tough to stay cool anywhere right now that's for sure!

[LarrBeard]

"... it would take 22 inches of rain to get us back..."

And if you got it all at once, 14 inches of it would run off and drown someone in the next state.

[gmwillys]

I have felt the pain of finding out the wheels that I thought were good, ended up being junk. I had received the wheels on a crusty '47 2A. They held air, but the tires were beyond dry rotten. One of our members on here was looking for a set for his M38A1, so I broke them down to clean them up to send out to him. Needless to say, they weren't worth giving them away. They can be welded up, but to keep them true, they will have to be chucked up in a lathe, and turned back down to the proper dimension.

Hopefully it will cool off for you soon, and that the rains will come back soon.

[Wulfie]

I have felt the pain of finding out the wheels that I thought were good, ended up being junk. I had received the wheels on a crusty '47 2A. They held air, but the tires were beyond dry rotten. One of our members on here was looking for a set for his M38A1, so I broke them down to clean them up to send out to him. Needless to say, they weren't worth giving them away. They can be welded up, but to keep them true, they will have to be chucked up in a lathe, and turned back down to the proper dimension.

Hopefully it will cool off for you soon, and that the rains will come back soon.

Same thing here . Old man rust really did his job .

[Wulfie]

Attention bmorgil ,working on rear end again moved pinion in .002 ,as of now got .020 back lash . How much should I move carrier bearings to get in the neigh hood of .010 ? Your guess as good or better than mine . Thanks

[bmorgil]

Oh man the heat is on! I am thinking move .015" from one side to the other. I would say less is better than more. A little less than fifteen might be OK. I wouldn't go over .015" on the first try anyway. You never know but generally every .010" will get you .005" to .008" in backlash change depending on the gear set. It is easier with a new gear set, as the backlash specification is .004" to .009", off the top of my head. In the case of a used gear set it is better to try to hit .009" right on the money or even .010", which is where I prefer to run a well used gear set.

[Wulfie]

Gonna try .012 , also when I finished it last time I torqued the pinion shaft nut to book 150 minum ft lbs , seemed to tight to me had to turn yolk with pipe wrench should it be that tight ? Maby just me im no super man . Also got 20 inch pounds on rotational torque right now.

[bmorgil]

Woe Wulfie! What do you mean when you torqued the pinion nut you had to turn it with a pipe wrench? That would be enough to ruin the pinion bearings. That is a lot more than 20 inch lbs torque to rotate! The pinion torque to rotate should not increase past the specification when the pinion nut is at full torque. How can you have 20 inch lbs right now? Did you have to loosen the pinion nut? Am I misunderstanding you? I think you might be saying you had to hold the yoke still with a pipe wrench? If so that's OK, it is tighter than h$LL! It is 200 ft lbs on a Model 44.

To re-state, the torque to rotate is set with the pinion nut at full torque and the Ring gear removed from the housing.

[Wulfie]

I only have it torqued to 100 ft lbs. The specs say to torque pinion nut to 150 ft lbs minimum .

[Wulfie]

I only have it torqued to 100 ft lbs. The specs say to torque pinion nut to 150 ft lbs minimum . Metalshaper checks his rotational torque at 100 ft lbs in his video on rear axle assembly .Should i be checking rotational torque at 150 ft lbs ? If so im not torqueing it enough to check rotational torque . And i have the ring gear out when i check rotational torque.

[bmorgil]

I am not sure who metalshaper is but, he should be torquing the pinion to its minimum specification at least, when setting the preload. Sometimes you can get a little more torque to rotate by increasing the torque on the nut to its maximum specification of 220 ft lbs. Make no mistake, there is a lot of torque on the pinion nut on the model 44. If you have ever seen one come loose, you would never question that torque again! You need to hold the yoke solid.

Below is a link to the official Spicer Manual. The Jeep Universal Manual is also a good source as it is a reprinting of the early Dana manual. Both manuals indicate the torque at 200 to 220 ft lbs. I have seen a lot of different numbers. If you google it you can get mislead in many directions! When writing these manuals, I always included engineering in the meetings, and they always had to proof read them before we published them. I think the best bet is always the factory manuals.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2327-5310-3-Spicer-Axle-Maintenance-Manual-Front-and-Rear-Carrier-Type

[51 CJ3]

Metalshaper is a youtube personality who does a lot of jeep maintenance videos. I don’t know that I have ever watched one of his videos but has a pretty big following on other websites.

[TJones]

I think bmorgil should know what he’s talking about, he did write the manuals for Dana before he retired.

[Wulfie]

Gonna do the best I can . Gonna do the pinion pre load to get approximately .030 rotational torque inch lbs , at 150 or more if you advise to do so. Tnx bmorgil . Means i gotta add shims to decrease previous pre load I had when i torqued it to 150 ft lbs after i set it rotational torque .020 at 100 ft lbs , then i torqued it to 150 ft lbs, which I believe now to be incorrect .

[bmorgil]

I think bmorgil should know what he’s talking about, he did write the manuals for Dana before he retired.

Lets say that our Technical Service team and the Marking team and the Engineering team made a printer print them! Tech service manuals took a good deal of time and money. I think they have it streamlined a bit now. In the beginning we took actual photographs and Marketing created "storyboards". The digital age definitely changed that. Unfortunately, everything that was taken as a photograph doesn't turn out well in the digitized format. Like the attached link for the Spicier manual, the photos are not very visible. They just don't transfer well to digital. They were great photographs!

[bmorgil]

Gonna do the best I can . Gonna do the pinion pre load to get approximately .030 rotational torque inch lbs , at 150 or more if you advise to do so. Tnx bmorgil . Means i gotta add shims to decrease previous pre load I had when i torqued it to 150 ft lbs after i set it rotational torque .020 at 100 ft lbs. If you follow what I am saying.

Go after it at 200 ft lbs of torque on the pinion nut Wulfie. Approach it slowly. Check it every 50 ft lbs as you approach 200 ft lbs. If at 200Lbs of torque you have 20 to 30 inch pounds of torque to rotate your done. If it is a little light, you can torque it to a full 220 ft lbs. sometimes that will give you a little more torque to rotate. You need to bring a NEW pinion nut (or RED Loctite on a used one) to at least 200 ft lbs before you take it out for a run. Therefore, you must know the rotational torque of the pinion without the carrier at 200 ft lbs on the pinion nut.

[Wulfie]

Noticed that when I read the manual , but it is what it is ,still wish I had a bag phone . HI HO ,HI HO off to work we go , will shoot for 200 ft lbs . Tnx again bmorgil . I need a push once in a while .

[bmorgil]

Your welcome Wulfie!

I remember the Bag Phone! I had one of those, 1994.... In a galaxy far, far away!

[gmwillys]

Ah, the bag phone! I had one in my '90 Chevy pickup. Radio Shack special for a penny to start, but don't get out of your area, because roaming charges were steep.

[TJones]

You actually needed a pickup with a bench seat to carry it around with ya:D:cool:

[gmwillys]

The handle fit around the transfer case shifter, so it didn't slide around when hooking corners. The Radio Shack version didn't have a battery, so it had to be plugged in to use. You could buy a battery, but it was more than the phone. I ended up selling it some time in the late '90s. Folks from the Southwest were buying them up because the range was much better than the phones of the day. The networks still service the phones because there wasn't anything better at the time.

[Wulfie]

Wow the bag phone sure stirred up some noise lol.

[Wulfie]

Got "RIPPER" up on his front 2 feet. Got the new rims , painted em up , been doing brake lines and finishing front hubs ,put steering rods on , and rippers two front teeth ,or zapats.

[Wulfie]

Question about "S" brake lines . Used the old ones if leaks cant stop , will put new ones on , thought it be easier to hook up originals . Also on steering rod ball joints castlated nuts to short so put washers under them ,cheapie knuckle joints i got off of e bay , dont think ill do that again. Kaiser Willys seems to be spot on about stuff.

[Wulfie]

Digging into ross steering box .Looks like complete re build . Steering tube cam has a notch in it and some rough ramps , bearings were all in the bottom of case ,shaft of the lever shaft was scored and horns worn on one side , steering gear ball footballed , steering column had pin holes and bent . As i said complete overhaul ,box was good though. Robbed steering gear arm from box bubba didnt want . Last 2 pics are Horrible Freight gear puller set that I really found useful , has multiple functions . Bmorgil will be happy im digging into rear end again ,got pinion rotational torque set at 35 inch pounds , wiggling, at 200 ft pounds , and in process of decreasing back lash , hope to rap it up tomorrow.

[bmorgil]

Yikes the steering box was busted! That puller will do a lot of work. Horrible Freight has just what the DIY crowd needs sometimes.

[gmwillys]

The worm gear looks like one of the ball bearings found it's way there, and they muscled it through. It is amazing some times the different types of wear and damage that one comes across in a restoration/repair. The life these Jeeps lived is just mind boggling.

Horrible Freight is one of my go-to places for cheap specialty tools that I can't justify spending the big bucks on the good stuff. I have that same puller set, and can't complain too much about it. Just keep the threads greased so they don't gall, and change out the flat washers with some grade 8s and all will be OK.

[Wulfie]

Will look for some grade eight washers , that kinda stuff hard to find in my town lol. Got 2 more shots for bmorgil's review . Drive side first , cost second. This after moving pinion in .002 . Have .0095 backlash at the moment but one thing when i ran this pattern i forgot to torque ring gear caps down they were just snug , will that make any difference ?

[bmorgil]

It looks like the caps were tight. Just in case though, spin it one more time after you torque them.

I would run that. The drive side is good to go. The coast side is a little quirky but not too bad. It wants to go closer (little less backlash) and out a little (Pinion out) . You could mess around and not get it much better and loose it on the drive side. If you move it around more than a few thousandths, you are going to loose the drive side. I think that will be relatively quiet on drive and coast, for an antique vehicle!

[gmwillys]

I buy all my grade eight hardware by the pound at Tractor Supply. It's good hardware and I use it on everything.

[Wulfie]

Yea , now i can move on . Finished brake plumbing today, gonna close up rear axle and put brakes and shoes on so he can stand up !

[Wulfie]

Got him on his feet . Waiting on steering repair parts then move him out of shop and set body on him.

[Wulfie]

Well got most parts for steering except main thing ,. no shaft with wsorm gear , called KaiserWillys and had no clue when I would get it , but good thing part made in USA . So plan b . Cut off bad worm gear from the shaft I had took other worm gear and did transplant. Where can I get reamer to ream out bushings in steering box ?

[bmorgil]

It takes a .875 reamer. Any machine shop or machine supply house will have them. I would suggest taking it to a machine shop. It will save you the cost of the reamer and, the reaming process can take a little practice if you haven't done it before. You don't want to ruin your new bushings. It takes a little practice to get a uniform bushing diameter. You definitely don't want to ream it oversize. A machine shop will do a good job, and it shouldn't cost much.

I think you should wait for the new worm gear and shaft. The weld and straightness are critical. I see the angle iron fixture you are using for straight but, if there is sufficient run out it will effect a few things in a bad way. The weld on the original is a friction weld with the worm gear having a machined fit on the shaft before welding. It is MUCH stronger than simply cutting the shaft and circle welding it. You are never going to get the strength you need. The shaft is compromised where you cut it. The shaft is designed to "flex" somewhat. Impacts to the steering system from the road are absorbed by the torsional (flexing) capability of the shaft. It flexes slightly with impacts. When it gets to the spot where you cut it off it will not have the torsional capability. It will fail there. That is a bad thing! I love your ingenuity Wulfie, but I think the steering shaft modification is unsafe.

[LarrBeard]

A different view ...

That is a good plan. 'Way back in about '65 or '66, I had to replace the worm on the '48 truck. I took a station wagon worm and had it welded to the truck tube. It lasted until we tore it down for the restoration.

[bmorgil]

Cutting and welding steering shafts is not a good idea guy's. The worm gear to shaft interface is critical.The two pieces are machined to fit together and then welded as a unit. Much stronger than a chop and circle weld.

I wont argue that people have done it. When it breaks the guy who welded it is going to feel real bad. And eventually it will break right where it was cut and welded. A hard hit on a pothole and you are out of control. There is no way to safely cut and circle weld a steering shaft. No good engineer would ever say it is OK. The changes welding makes to the design and the metal of the shaft itself, will cause enough trouble on its own. There is little difference in the way the steering shaft performs, and an axle shaft at the wheel. You wouldn't chop an axle and circle weld it unless you liked being stranded!

[Wulfie]

Yea well im gonna use it just for moving the frame around , plan to use new tube when it comes. Tnx LarrBeard and bmorgil . Machine shops around here hard to come by ,and the ones I have found really dont want to give u time of day. The ones around here are way behind ,the one that has my engine said 3 months its been over 4 . Tried old shaft for temp but it was really grindy.

[51 CJ3]

Good machine shops are hard to find here too. If you do find one they are months behind and projects for the little guys go to the bottom of the list every time a bigger customer walks in the door. Actually, that’s true of nearly every business in this area.

[bmorgil]

Do you have a regular Tool and Die Machine shop, not an engine machine shop near you? There is a place I have worked with in Tulsa. B T Machine in Oklahoma. 16210 Marshall St, Tulsa, OK 74116 Phone: (918) 834-3340. They are very close to Tulsa Raceway Park. Look for a tool and die shop, not an engine shop. B.T. will do it for you, just bring it in. I don't know if you are close to Tulsa however.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil on the steering shaft welding. I have done sketchy repairs myself, but without the proper prep and weld penetration, you'll be asking for trouble. I'm glad that you are going to use a new shaft for your final assembly, and your repair for moving the frame around the shop. It is not a good feeling when the steering wheel is no longer connected to the front end while driving.

[51 CJ3]

Thanks for the tip. Tulsa is about an hour and a half away for me.

[LarrBeard]

Yessir ...

[bmorgil]

Wulfie, are you anywhere near Corpus Christi? I know of a small one person machine and tool shop there, that will do it for you I am sure. Give Ed a call @ Roy's Machine and Fabrication (361) 884-8012. He is at 12 16th St Corpus Christi, TX 78405. He is 10 minutes from the South Texas Racing Ranch. Ed took the shop over from his Father Roy. He will do it for you. His shop isn't the best looking place but, he is a competent machinist, and reaming or precision boring isn't a big deal on a Ross steering box. I think he could do it for less than $100 while you wait if you ask him in the morning. If you use him, let me know how Ed is doing! When you figure a good reamer is going to cost you $75, Ed might just be the way to go. Bring him the shaft and the housing with the new bushings pressed in. That gives him options on how to fit it. He could set up a boring bar and bore it, which might be a better way for a machine shop that is capable of a precision bore. He may prefer to bore it. He will let you know.

One thing to watch out for. Many complaints about the bushings out there for the Ross box. I have read in some Jeep and tractor forums, that the press fit is not there in the housing. The bushings must press firmly into the housing. After the bushings are firmly pressed into the housing, they should collapse from the pressure of the fit slightly. This is why they must be reamed or fitted after they are pressed in. If the bushings go in by hand, and the sector shaft will go right in after you press them up, stop. The bushings O.D. are undersized. I went through four bushings till I got two that pressed in nicely. I have heard of others having the same problem. Keep sending them back if they don't fit right.

[Wulfie]

Had one to press in the long one , but short one not so tight so I red lock tight it in . Sector shaft was very tight fit if not fit at all , so I lapped it in got it where it was free . I am close to corpus 1 hour away thats where my engine is , not at the shop you talking about. Well got it looking like a jeep almost , sit body on frame . I bought body mount kit from KaiserWillys but the pads seem to thick , havent tried them yet . My jeep came without any pads of any sort at all . Hat channels sitting on the frame what was left of them . Any suggestions about fitting MD Waun body . Bmorgil where you located ? Oh i see Ohio .

[bmorgil]

Wulfie, you should remove the one that is loose and send it back. You need the bushings to "collapse" inward from the press fit. It needs to be tight so the reamer can cut it to a precision fit. Even with red Loctite that is only part of it. It needs to stay in and not turn in the housing. A good solid press fit. The sector shaft is a precision fit. That is why the bushings must be reamed to size after pressing. It makes for a very precise fit. Something you need in a steering sector shaft or it will wear out very quickly, and take the housing with it. The machine shop I recommended is not an engine machine shop. Ray's is a tool and die fabrication shop. If you have a shop like this close by, take it there. I would not lap the bushings. You need a precision reamed, perfectly round hole. Something you cannot get by lapping. It must be round or it will wear very quickly on the high spots. There is a lot of friction on the sector shaft. It needs to be a perfect fit. Perfectly round is more important than anything. You can only get perfectly round by reaming or precision boring.

I posted in my restoration thread on peej, everything I ran into on the tub. The biggest trouble on mine was at the firewall behind the throttle bracket. There wasn't enough room there. The firewall had to be modified so the body would move far enough forward with out hitting.

I live about 20 minutes from the Original Willys Overland, Jeep plant.

[Wulfie]

The ross housing Im using is not the one Im gonna use. When I get the new steering worm shaft I will get it right . The one I did is just for moving it around. Ill check out your problems with body mounting.

[bmorgil]

Wulfie, you really need to tell me ahead of time that you were just doing temporary repair, not for the final fix! You are scaring the hell out of me!

The project is moving along well Wulfie!

[Wulfie]

Seems like your major problem with body fitting is the firewall to close to engine. I have a F 134 engine seized of course but was wondering if i can put in f 134 to se if everything fits up ok . From what i have read the f134 was same block deminsion wise . What do u think ? My L 134 still at machine shop.

[bmorgil]

This is interesting Wulfie... If your tub was like mine, the problem is the Bracket that bolts to the back of the block on the L134. I am not sure how the throttle works on the F134. We need LarrBeard to help here. He is very familiar with the throttle hook up, when converting from the L head to the F head. It is possible with the F head it might not be an issue. The linkage bracket on mine needed a good 2 inches of firewall modification. The tub would hit before it was all the way forward.

[gmwillys]

The F head sits higher than the L head, so take that in consideration for the tub having enough room to slide forward. The F head sits up another 2 1/2" above what an L head where to stick up. On a stock tub, there is enough space above the head of either engine, but if the firewall is off on the re-pop tub, that may cause you modifications that are not needed.

[Wulfie]

Things seem to be fitting up nicely , was kinda concerned after hearing other peoples experience with MD Juan bodies , but so far everything is fitting up pretty good . Bmorgil looks like even the throttle linkage may not be a major issue , all that has to be done is relieve the firewall back some. Everything is a loose fit right now , the mounting kit from Kiser Willys is worthless so far ,had to cut some tire side wall for pads under the hat channels , other wise body would sit to high. Got about a 1/4 inch pad under parts of the body . Should I get the clutch and brake and steering tube to line up and not worry about everything else ? I know I still have to contend with the engine and transmission and transfer case .

[Wulfie]

Not planning to put F 134 engine in it , just putting it in to check firewall clearence , by the way there are no holes in back of F 134 head or block to attach any linkage .

[LarrBeard]

All of the throttle linkage for the F-134 is on the lower driver side of the engine.

[bmorgil]

Thanks Larry! There is the difference. The F head mounts the linkage to the side of the block where the L head has the linkage behind the block. That is where I had to clearance the Firewall for the bracket on the back of the block on the L head. You could get the L head bracket and fit it in behind the block in the approximate position. That will show what you need. I think the Juan tub has a few things that they (Juan) mixed up. The dash on my 3A worked but was a cross between a 2A and a 3A. It had to have a few things repaired. The starter switch/coil is in the dash on a 2A and the holes had to be fixed. I am convinced the firewall is modified from the 3B firewall, which explains why the relief is not there for the bracket. A little chopping here and welding there, a little Bondo and, it's a 3A!

You are right on track Wulfie. The whole body project starts with the grill. Like you have it. That is exactly how they came down the assembly line. First the grill goes on then the fenders, and the tub fits up from there. Once the fenders are where they go, the tub has to be manipulated in whatever manner to get it to bolt to the fenders. The tub is then centered left to right on the frame and squared. The tub is usually not flat on the bottom. The shape of the tub is usually a bit twisted until you get it bolted and pulled down into shape on the frame to the 1/4 rubber spacers between the tub and the frame. The spacers need to provide enough clearance between the tub and the top of the transmission transfer case. The tub should not touch anything but the rubber pads. To align the clutch pedal and brake pedal to the holes in the floor, the shafts are forged. They can be bent slightly in a press and reinstalled if they don't come straight through the centers of the holes in the floor. This adjustment is common. If you get a new brake pedal or clutch pedal, there is a very good chance you will have to custom bend it just a little to get a perfect fit.

[Wulfie]

Thanks guys . I know the F 134 sits higher than the L134 , was wondering where this difference comes from , is the head higher or the block itself or is the carburator the difference or some other factor ? Or motor mounts .

[bmorgil]

It doesn't actually "set" higher more like it is higher. The lower block is the same height. It is the cylinder head, Intake manifold, rocker shaft and subsequent valve cover for the overhead intake valves that raise the overall height of the final assembly. Same motor mounts etc..

[LarrBeard]

When the CJ-3A went to the CJ-3B with the F-134 engine, the hood had to get taller (the "breadbox" hood) to accommodate the F-134's higher valve cover and carburetor. Most trucks and wagons had room for the F-134 without any modifications. It's close, but it fits. You have issues if you want to put an air filter atop the carburetor, but a stock air cleaner with the goose-neck to a flex hose works well.

[Wulfie]

Thanks Larry! There is the difference. The F head mounts the linkage to the side of the block where the L head has the linkage behind the block. That is where I had to clearance the Firewall for the bracket on the back of the block on the L head. You could get the L head bracket and fit it in behind the block in the approximate position. That will show what you need. I think the Juan tub has a few things that they (Juan) mixed up. The dash on my 3A worked but was a cross between a 2A and a 3A. It had to have a few things repaired. The starter switch/coil is in the dash on a 2A and the holes had to be fixed. I am convinced the firewall is modified from the 3B firewall, which explains why the relief is not there for the bracket. A little chopping here and welding there, a little Bondo and, it's a 3A!

You are right on track Wulfie. The whole body project starts with the grill. Like you have it. That is exactly how they came down the assembly line. First the grill goes on then the fenders, and the tub fits up from there. Once the fenders are where they go, the tub has to be manipulated in whatever manner to get it to bolt to the fenders. The tub is then centered left to right on the frame and squared. The tub is usually not flat on the bottom. The shape of the tub is usually a bit twisted until you get it bolted and pulled down into shape on the frame to the 1/4 rubber spacers between the tub and the frame. The spacers need to provide enough clearance between the tub and the top of the transmission transfer case. The tub should not touch anything but the rubber pads. To align the clutch pedal and brake pedal to the holes in the floor, the shafts are forged. They can be bent slightly in a press and reinstalled if they don't come straight through the centers of the holes in the floor. This adjustment is common. If you get a new brake pedal or clutch pedal, there is a very good chance you will have to custom bend it just a little to get a perfect fit.

When I was lining up body , i had the brake arm on but not the clutch arm . When i tried to put on clutch arm it seemed not to wanna line up right , looked to far towards the body center , looking like it might hit the front left body support .Brake arm was in perfect alignment , finally slid the clutch arm on and it lined up also . Then i started putting on grill and fenders , close but not exzactly , right rear of body was not lined up the same as left rear , also right front fender was a lil off also ,needed to go forward a lil ,also grill mounting holes on bottom support not in alignment but close , hard to move body just sitting there then remimbered that i had put in bolts on back cross member to help keep body in half *** alignment , gonna try and get it better tomorrow , gonna lube up my home made pads so body will slide on them easier . Thanks again for the help peeps all of you.

[bmorgil]

Keep at it Wulfie, it takes a little wiggling around.

[Wulfie]

Got the F 134 engine in , tight fit but can see why peeps cut out hood . Went ahead and installed The trans good thing i did , more alignment issues poped up. Guess i go back to the wiggling board. Last pic is pic of cj2a linkage and there plenty of room behind of head. There are 3 holes on back of block , the cj2a throttle linkage bolted right up, I stand corrected about not being holes on back of block , when i first looked it was pretty well covered in gunk but after cleaning off they revealed themselves. Shallow 1/4 inch bolt holes. Was really getting to like the MD Juan bodie until saw how far off the trans hole is , hopefully wiggle will cure it ,if wiggling it in place takes out steering and brake and clutch then think of plan B. Also had quarter inch pad under front hat channel but had to go to 1/2 inch to get body up so bolts would clear at shifter hole . Maby cut out and move over , or move trans over , but cluth linkage support needs to be modified, if move trans over.