1947 CJ2a Digging in...

[LilWhip]

Just purchased my first Jeep. She's a beauty. 1947 CJ2A. From what I was told, the Jeep has been sitting in a barn for 30 years and hasn't been started. I have been doing a lot of work, or should I say, removing old rusty bolts and buying lots of replacement parts:) Part of the fun right? This weekend I took off the water pump and noticed that there is old crusty antifreeze that needs to be flushed/removed. This now begs the question...what should I do? My gut instinct is to start the engine rebuild process but need some help and guidance. I also took off the head and the cylinders don't look too bad. See the pictures below and let me know your thoughts. I have done a lot of car work, but never rebuilt a car engine, only the little briggs and stratton mower engines. I am a newbie.

[gmwillys]

An engine is an engine, everything comes apart and goes back together one bolt at a time.

Invest in the Willys shop manual if you haven't already done so.
Shop around for a good, (trusted) machine shop to check everything over/ true up the block/head.
Double check all the measurements before ordering the rebuild kit.
Have a clean place for re-assembly.
Take your time.
Take all the time you need to be sure everything is right and proper.
Patience.

[bmorgil]

Diggin' in is the first step to a great project LW! The shop manual is the most important purchase. Reading it is the best way to have a good project. The book and the proper tools will go a long way.

[LilWhip]

Great feedback! I have the manual and will start reading:) I was able to pour a couple of cups of water through the water pump port and A LOT of old sludge came out through the head plug behind the generator. But the good news is that it is looking much cleaner. I took the head off and cleaned around the pistons to see if there were any cracks on the block and everything looks pretty clean. I also blew everything out with compressed air. Would it be a bad idea to put a new head gasket on and go through the process that LarrBeard outlined in starting an old engine? or should I just embrace the rebuild now:)

[LarrBeard]

"...only the little briggs and stratton mower engines. I am a newbie."

A. The L-134 isn't a lot more complicated that the B&S lawnmower engine, just a bit bigger and 4X on cylinders. If you've rebuilt B&S engines, you've done just about everything you will need to do on the L-134. Get a Shop Manual. Put it in the library and look at it often.

B. Every one of us was a newbie "once upon a time, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..". You get over being a newbie by just getting in and doing it.

C. What we see of the engine's innards doesn't look all that bad, but with as much crud as I can see in the water pump opening, IMHO, you need to get that block boiled out (hot tanked) to loosen up all the stuff you can't see. If not, you'll chase it forever.

D. Did anyone give you an idea as to why it was parked in the barn? What broke?

Keep us informed on how things are going. It looks like a nice starting place for a project.

[bmorgil]

Since you have the head off, if you aren't on a strict budget, now would be a good time to rebuild it. Did you check the compression prior to pulling that head? If it was low definitely time to rebuild it. If you didn't, its really a budget thing. You could clean it up and vacuum the cylinders out, put on a new head gasket and give it a try.

[LilWhip]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I decided to begin the rebuild process. The good news is that I have successfully removed all head stud bolts (except for the back three which are under the firewall) without breaking any yet. So far the engine block looks good with no visible cracks. Excited to get it to the machine shop for a hot bake and to see the true condition. This now begs the question...should I keep going and rebuild the transmission and transfer case? Much easier when everything is out, right? Plus I think it will take the machine shop a couple of weeks at minimum to turn things around on the block.

[LarrBeard]

Welcome to thie slippery slope!

Yes, it is easier to get to the transmission, transfer case and differentials now than it would be with an engine in the way. It is a pretty good guess that the seals are going to leak with fresh lube in things as well as unpleasant surprises with bearings, worn/corroded gear teeth and the like.

The ride down that slope is an exciting one!

[gmwillys]

Do everything that you can while it's easy to get at. You'll be happy you did.

[LilWhip]

Okay, was able to spend this last Saturday pulling the engine and transmission. Everything looks good except for this lovely self-fix on the engine block. It looks like the original owner was trying to prevent a crack or something by bolting a bracket onto the block by the distributor. After looking closely it doesn't look like a crack but not sure. Not super happy that there are 14 drilled holes in the block, but I am not giving up hope. At least the holes are threaded and I am thinking I can either plug the hole or put the plate back on when I rebuild. Let me know your thoughts on the repair process. I am going to take it to the machine shop for a hot bath so I can see what the engine looks like when it's clean. I really want to fix this as it appears to be the original engine.
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[LarrBeard]

Well, it sure looks like it could be a crack. I would make a WAG that the engine froze and cracked at that point. I had one engine that had frozen and the crack was down in the gallery where the distributor shaft headed down to the oil pump. There was no good way to get to that one to fix it and that block was scrap - back in 1966.

BUT - with the brass plate and all of those screws, it may well have made a good seal - a really great farm fix! If that is the only issue, I think the patch is a better solution that trying to weld up the crack and putting heat stresses into the area.

Let us know what you find ... we're curious too.

[bmorgil]

WOW LilWhip!!!!!! Just WOW! I have seen a lot of things, I have never seen that. Drilling all the holes definitely made the situation even worse if that's possible. LilWhip It would be a cold day in Hades before I would use that block, spend a dime on it, or the time and energy to clean it. It would need to be the last block on the planet and my life would have to depend on it.

We were just discussing cracked blocks here on the forum a few days ago. My feelings as you can tell, are that if a block is cracked in such a way that it needs a"weld" type of repair it is not going to hold up for long. The exception is some aluminum blocks. Engine block castings can be welded or brazed and many have done it. I have seen it done a few ways, I have not seen it last for long. It does work on engines destine for High Performance short duration runs like a tractor puller. As long as they run on alcohol and don't run water in the jacket. The water jackets are usually filled with concrete. Hit the Google search for a core L134 block. You will always wonder about that crack as you motor around with your nicely rebuilt Jeep. The heating up and cooling down cycles of the engine will put a lot of stress on any kind of repair to a block casting.

[TJones]

Bmorgil you are spot on!!!
I’ve NEVER seen a repair on any type of cast block work, except on aluminum where you can heliarc it back together.
Cast welding takes a Master to to get the temperature PERFECT to where the weld or even brazing will stick let alone hold something together.

[gmwillys]

There was a guy who wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree. He would show up to old iron tractor shows with this Allis Chalmers WD-45 that looked like was stored in the compost heap. The block was cracked from the bottom of the water jacket to darned near the head. This guy ground out the crack, drilled holes much like you see in the photos posted of the Willys block, laced the crack with copper wire, then slathered JB Weld in the cavass. He would hook up to the tractor pulling sled, and everyone would step back in case she came apart. I wish I would have taken a picture of the monstrosity.

[LilWhip]

Yep, not super thrilled. After cleaning it up a bunch more last night, you can definitely see the repair much better. The original owner clearly ground down that area and used who knows what to patch the block. Now I have the fun job of finding a good non-cracked L134 block. They seem harder and harder to find. Any recommendations on where to look? At least I'll have fun pulling apart the engine and salvaging all of the other parts.
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[bmorgil]

I was poking around Google last week and there were a few out there. eBay had a complete motor and there were some on ewillys. Hit Google hard, you will find one. You may have to ship it in, but you will probably have some good parts to sell after you take what you need.

[gmwillys]

Also look at Hobart Welders, air compressors, or generator sets of the same vintage. A lot of the Willys industrial L134 were used on those units, and generally are in descent shape. Some of the air compressors utilized the center two cylinders to compress air, while 1 and 4 were powered, so the head and intake are different.

[LilWhip]

Thanks gmwillys! I think I may have found a really good shape hobart cj2a engine. $500! It does have one bolt snapped off in the head. Not a deal breaker I don't think.
I better jump on it. Anything I need to be on the lookout for on the engine besides the normal wear spots below the distributor and on the head?

932193229323

[bmorgil]

The most common cracks are between the head stud threads and the block water jacket. Those can usually be fixed with threaded inserts. Have your machinist check it over well for cracks and thats about it. The next spot you already know about!

Often persons will use bolts instead of studs on the head. This causes the shank of the bolt to bottom in the threaded hole of the block and crack it. Check the intake/exhaust manifold bolt holes for wear and use inserts if they are even the slightest bit loose. If the threads are too worn it is very difficult to get them to seal where they enter the water jacket. I had a heck of time with mine even though I had heli coils in the holes. If I did it again I would use threaded inserts with lots of sealant.

Be sure to take the old block with you to the machine shop. First he can get rid of it for you and, he can verify it is the same.

[LarrBeard]

A. Are those pictures of the old engine?

B. Is it just the light, or is there something going on on the wall of #3?

[TJones]

A. Are those pictures of the old engine?

B. Is it just the light, or is there something going on on the wall of #3?


Good eye LarrBeard:cool:

[LilWhip]

The pictures are of the engine from the Hobart Welder. I am going to take a look at it tomorrow night to verify whether #3 is badly scored/damaged or not. I know cylinder walls can be machined, but what is the point of no return? Meaning how much damage is too much?

[LarrBeard]

"... but what is the point of no return? Meaning how much damage is too much?"

For the 4-134 engines, you can get piston/ring sets out to 0.080 oversize. If an 0.080 won't clean it up, there is always the option to sleeve the cylinder. Sleeving a cylinder really isn't that big of a deal, especially when you are trying to salvage a block. A good machine shop can look at it and give you an answer pretty quickly. Sleeving was pretty common on a lot of farm tractors.

GM Willys, how far do you overbore to sleeve a cylinder?

[bmorgil]

I think the sleeve from Hastings is around 3.300+ O.D.. The press fit is .001" to .003" with .00175" press fit as optimum. It all depends on the sleeve measurements before installation however. The shop will definitely measure the sleeve first. The standard bore of an L134 is 3.125". So the overbore will be at least .175" over bored and probably more depending on the sleeve.

[gmwillys]

Bmorgil has got you covered in regards to cutting in for sleeves. From the photos, it doesn't look too bad. The marks in #3 cylinder looks to be where the piston rings had sat until the engine was torn down. Looks like the engine was stuck at the time of disassembly, so that's where all the crud accumulated. It looks like it should clean up without having to go too deep in the cylinder bore.

[LilWhip]

Thank you Gentlemen for the info. I am going to take a look at the block tonight. Where is the best place to get pistons if I need a different size?

[LarrBeard]

'...Where is the best place to get pistons if I need a different size?.."

I suspect you will need a different size, just to clean up the bores and to make sure that you are going to get good ring seals. There are a lot of places to buy Jeep pistons, but Kaiser Willys has proven to be a good vendor over the years.

Examples:

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-replacement-piston-with-pin-040-o-s-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-complete-piston-ring-set-040-o-s-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine

[bmorgil]

The pistons are made by Silvolite. We have some good threads that had discussions about pistons a while back. If you search in the top right search bar for Silvolite there is some interesting stuff on rebuilding. Here is a link

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/search.php?searchid=1875607

So no matter where you get them they are going to be Silvolites. Be sure they can take them back just in case your machinist says you need the next oversize. To do a good job you should have the pistons in hand when you are ready to bore it out. This usually means you let the machinist see it, he takes a shot at the finished bore size and then the pistons are ordered. They are SILV-O-LITE 2606 pistons. They come in .010" - .080 in .010" increments. It is probable your machinist can order the pistons from his source directly. This puts the burden on them to get the size correct.

I bought mine from KW. The price was right and I have had un-questioned returns and replacements from them.

[LarrBeard]

BMorgil:

When I go to:

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys...archid=1875607

FYI - your link may be broken:

vBulletin Message
vBulletin Message
Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.

[bmorgil]

Yes same is happening to me. It changes address as more posts are made. Its never going to work for long. Just go into the search bar and type in "silvolite" It pulls up 4 or so good discussions.

[LilWhip]

Okay, I picked up the industrial L134 for $500. It seems to be in really good shape other than the two snapped stud bolts in the exhaust. But those can be drilled out. Question...I have been pulling the valves on the industrial engine and they seem to be just a tiny bit longer than the valves on the L134 I pulled out of the cj2a. I am thinking they are slightly different as they are made for an industrial application. Any idea? Also, will the crankshaft or camshaft be different from my normal cj2a L134? Want to make sure I send the right parts to the machine shop:)

[bmorgil]

I would just use the block. Rebuild it as if it was a Willys 134. Have the shop use the WIllys parts and the new block. It is possible there are different components in the engine. If the valves are a different length, then the lifters and related valve train may also be different.

[LilWhip]

Thanks bmorgil!

[LilWhip]

Progress! I have the cj2a stripped down to the frame and ready to be sandblasted. The engine is also in the process of being rebuilt. Any common areas on the frame where cracking or damage occurs? I am pretty happy with the overall shape of the frame. Sorry for the picture with some of my garage junk on it.
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[gmwillys]

Inspect around the front (radiator mount) cross member for rust or cracking. Look around the spring and shock mounts for cracks. Also look at the rear crossmember. All in all, the frames are pretty sturdy. Mine was used for snow plowing and everything from the front crossmember forward was roached/scabbed together. It was much easier to cut the front horns off another frame that was soft in the middle, and repair my frame, (so if you find a soft spot, don't condemn the frame).

[Wulfie]

Hello LilWhip. Wulfie here im ahead of you in similar project . Just some of my 2 cents if it is worth anything. Identify every bolt nut and part u take off , put in baggie and list all parts in it , i didnt do that at first but learned otherwise . When you get to axles be very mindful of front axle nuckles shims and where the came from and measure each one and record for future reference. Dont rush into axle housing before you take apart. Measure exzisting back lash ,and if gears and bearings seem ok after cleaning , bearings shouldnt be spinning like a top , I wouldnt take apart further , take pictures of wear patterns on ring gear , for future reference , in other words dont clean em spic and span before proceding. There are some very know it about willys jeeps her dont be afraid to ask questions and document everything with pics before u take anything off. Good luck on your project .

[bmorgil]

Your getting into it now LilWhip! The front cross member to frame is probably the place most find an issue. gmwillys has worked over many of the worst. He has given you the hot spots. Keep us posted LilWhip. Your going to have a nice one there.