1960 DJ3A Resto with my 18 year old son

[BeninCT]

New here because for my son’s senior project at his high school he decided to try to fix up a flat fender. We found a 1960 DJ3A for $2500 and picked it up last weekend and jumped right in. Condition is decent- floors in front are rusted through but the rest of the body is mostly surface rust as well as the frame. Engine had good compression and ran in spring but has since had carb removed to be rebuilt but was never completed so its in a box.

Plan is to clean it up, paint the frame after repairs, make it mechanically sound and paint it desert tan. Prob a slightly larger set of tires but nothing too crazy and we are not doing a historically accurate restoration but rather more of resto mod if that term applies here.

Odd thing is that its been converted to 4x4 and I cannot find a S/N on top of the frame so I don’t know if someone just added the T case or if it was body swapped to a CJ3A rolling chassis?

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Edit to add: was looking to make a great start here and my pics are tiny….. need a lesson in uploading them normal size…

[LarrBeard]

Your pictures are OK. That's just how they are on the site. They run them through a resizer to keep the data on the forum manageable.

And you commented: "I cannot find a S/N on top of the frame "

Finding frame serial numbers is iffy at best. the VIN tag is almost always the best indicvator of how it started life - but if someone swapped a tub - who knows what you might have.

You are now at the First Rule of Jeep:

1 "Trust nothing you read or what someone tells you until you until you verify it yourself. What you see is what you have."

Then, the second Rule:

2. Never say;"Willys-Overland would never have ____________________________ (just fill in the blank - with something like ... put a DJ body on a CJ3A frame as a special order).

Jeeps are kind of like "The Last Cat of the Day When There Are No Matching Parts"

[bmorgil]

Definitely an interesting Jeep you have there. I have not seen a top modified like that before. The modifications to the door openings and floorboard are something unique. The roof looks like it is one strong piece! That is a rugged looking top that was made. Are there any indications on the top of who made it? Look for a manufacturing tag. It could be fabricated from scratch. Who knows what you will find with these things. The DJ factory or dealer conversions could have become anything. The intention of the DJ was to turn it into something that could be driven around. Mine was a dealer converted CJ to Farm. The conversion consisted of a hydraulic system, air bags and a PTO with a lot of shielding underneath. Does your serial number indicate if the vehicle was originally a DJ or is it a dealer converted CJ?

I like the look yours has on the trailer with the top on. It has a "car" look to it. It should be a very cool restore. You are going to uncover some history.

Depending on where you look at data, there were less than 3000 total 1960 DJ3A's built. If yours has a DJ3A 1960 tag, it is rare.

[bmorgil]

Your pictures are OK. That's just how they are on the site. They run them through a resizer to keep the data on the forum manageable.

The file type the pic is in is a big part of it. If it is anything OTHER than a .jpg it is limited to 19kb. If it IS a .jpg it is limited to 97kb. A lot of files are .jpeg now. Those will be clipped as Larry indicates. If it is in a .jpg format as yours are, you may want to check the file size. If you don't keep it below 97kb, it will get chopped. Make sure you are using the Advanced and Manage attachments method for inserting pictures. https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2451-How-to-post-a-picture-in-a-thread

Attached is a pic saved in .jpg file format. We are still working on why they come in sideways. The consensus is it depends on how you were holding your phone or camera when took the picture. If you click on the picture after it opens in a new window, it will enlarge.

[LarrBeard]

Well - this is how we hijack a thread. We were talking about a unique DJ and now we're getting smarter about pictures.

The picture Bob posted enlarged nicely when I opened it. It is indeed a .jpg format and it has been resized to 924 x 696 pixels.

SO, I'm hijacking this thread for a minute to try a photo experiment. I grabbed a photo and ran it through a resizer:

https://www.simpleimageresizer.com

This is a VERY simple resizer, it asks you how big you want the resized picture to be and I told it 924 x 696 pixels.

I am going to attach it to this note and I want to see how it turns out when I reopen it - we'll see how that works.

(I've never resized before I post and maybe I will from now on...)

We're all still learning!

[LarrBeard]

ANd, by golly - when I go back and look at that post - when I click on the attachment it opens up to a very nice 6 x 8 inch picture on my display.

We've learned something... a good day.

I'll resize to 924 x 696 from now on when I post.

THANKS DOC DANA!

[bmorgil]

Good tip on the photo size 924 x 696. That or anything less will do it. Here is another way to resize. It is a bit clunky but if you are worried about downloading something, this is already in your computer.

Open up your file explorer and go to the photos you want to resize. Highlight all the photos you want to resize, right click and then pick the "Send To" (choose more options if you don't see send to) then email as if you were going to email them. Windows will pop up a window and ask you what size you want. After that it will insert them as an attachment to an email. You can cut and paste from there. I use that when I am trying to send a lot of photos in an email. It does reduce the definition as you reduce the size.

Now back to that DJ, take a picture of the firewall VIN tag.

[BeninCT]

@larrbeard - Hey thanks- the cat reminds me of many old vehicles that I have owned lol. This one is no different either.

Going to upload some more pictures of the chassis now that we have the body off in hopes of identifying exactly what I have for axles, t-case, transmission and engine. Also, up front there is a mount for the bell crank on the round crossmember that is left over from the 2WD days and then one on the front axle where it should be. Going to eliminate the old one on the round crossmember unless anyone has a better idea?

Anyone know exactly what I have here for running gear?9790979197929793

[BeninCT]

Good tip on the photo size 924 x 696. That or anything less will do it. Here is another way to resize. It is a bit clunky but if you are worried about downloading something, this is already in your computer.

Open up your file explorer and go to the photos you want to resize. Highlight all the photos you want to resize, right click and then pick the "Send To" (choose more options if you don't see send to) then email as if you were going to email them. Windows will pop up a window and ask you what size you want. After that it will insert them as an attachment to an email. You can cut and paste from there. I use that when I am trying to send a lot of photos in an email. It does reduce the definition as you reduce the size.

Now back to that DJ, take a picture of the firewall VIN tag.

Picture process is going to take some studying but thank you for outlining it for me. ALso, there is no such thing as a hijack! Feel free to discuss :)

Firewall tag has it as a 1960 DJ3A as far as I can tell. Its the chassis that has me wondering. No diagonal braces in the rear and rear mount fuel tank plus bell crank mount on front round cross member has me thinking this was a DJ chassis that someone added a t case and new front axle to. I have no idea tho! 979497959796979797979798

[bmorgil]

We truly need gmwillys to jump in here and see what he thinks.

I am going to say you have a 2A or 3A frame that someone put a body on. The confusing thing is the comments on the bell crank. On the very early jeep, the bell crank was on the axle. On the later models the bell crank was moved to the round cross member you mentioned. That almost makes me think it is a newer Military frame (the rear gas can mounts make me think military) because of the bell crank mount on the round cross member. I cannot see if it has the machine gun mount which would distinguish it from the civilian frame The front axle on the other hand has to be something early like an MB or very early 2A to have the bell crank on it.

[BeninCT]

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We truly need gmwillys to jump in here and see what he thinks.

I am going to say you have a 2A or 3A frame that someone put a body on. The confusing thing is the comments on the bell crank. On the very early jeep, the bell crank was on the axle. On the later models the bell crank was moved to the round cross member you mentioned. That almost makes me think it is a newer Military frame (the rear gas can mounts make me think military) because of the bell crank mount on the round cross member. I cannot see if it has the machine gun mount which would distinguish it from the civilian frame The front axle on the other hand has to be something early like an MB or very early 2A to have the bell crank on it.

Here is a clear shot of the frame and if I recall correctly the machine gun mount was a steel circle in the middle of the frame which I don’t have but please confirm. Fuel tank under the rear floor where the 3A frame had angled braces to me says DJ but like u said the front axle is confusing. NEed a little help!

[bmorgil]

Looks like a civilian frame. Take a pic of the left front (drivers side) motor mount. Lets see if it is a 2A or a 3A or later frame. The removed V brace in the rear was to move the tank. The gas tank was not necessarily moved in a farm jeep. It was usually not relocated because the PTO and/or hydraulics would be in the way.

Other differences between the 3A and the 2A are, the trans cross member is bolted to the underside of the frame flange on the 3A. On the 2A frame there is a bracket for the cross member and the cross member sticks out and is bolted to brackets. The frame has straps on the top and bottom.

The more you look at it the more it seems to be a DJ with a conversion to 4 wheel drive from an early power train. The casting numbers on the transmission and transfer case will tell you more about their age. The model of axles might tell us more. The bell crank on the axle is a clear indicator of an early Jeep.The axle models will be cast into the housings.

[51 CJ3]

I don’t know much about CJs and less about DJs but, isn’t the left front engine mount further forward on a CJ3A than a CJ2A? I know the engine mount bracket is reversed on the CJ3A engine to provide fuel pump clearance.

[bmorgil]

That is an indicator for sure Jeff, However that change was kind of filtered in. There are a few 3A's running around that came from the factory in early production with a 3A frame and an adapter at the engine mount, as Willys used up old 2A and Truck motor inventory.

Check this factory flyer out. It looks like yours especially the top. This is advertising for the 2 wheel drive DJ-3A Dispatcher. The 4 wheel drive farm was intended to compete with farm tractors, and I think they were all CJ's not DJ's. It looks like the 2 wheel drive was after the passenger/delivery market. If yours was a 2 wheel drive originally, they did move the gas tank. The bell crank would have to be on the cross member because there was no front axle in a DJ.

[LarrBeard]

We love mysteries here...

[BeninCT]

Looks like a civilian frame. Take a pic of the left front (drivers side) motor mount. Lets see if it is a 2A or a 3A or later frame. The removed V brace in the rear was to move the tank. The gas tank was not necessarily moved in a farm jeep. It was usually not relocated because the PTO and/or hydraulics would be in the way.

Other differences between the 3A and the 2A are, the trans cross member is bolted to the underside of the frame flange on the 3A. On the 2A frame there is a bracket for the cross member and the cross member sticks out and is bolted to brackets. The frame has straps on the top and bottom.

The more you look at it the more it seems to be a DJ with a conversion to 4 wheel drive from an early power train. The casting numbers on the transmission and transfer case will tell you more about their age. The model of axles might tell us more. The bell crank on the axle is a clear indicator of an early Jeep.The axle models will be cast into the housings.

Will see if I cant find axle info but here is the LF motor mount.

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I appreciate the feedback! Going to power wash everything today so should be easier to see what’s what.

[BeninCT]

We love mysteries here...


Me too- I want to purchase a bunch of parts for steering, suspension but waiting to see what the group thinks I have. I think the 3A parts will work for my steering, brakes, axles but need to be sure obv.

[bmorgil]

I think you have DJ-3A that someone put axles and a transfer case under, from an old model GPW. When the front axle is cleaned up lets take a closer look at it. The original bell crank mount is visible in your picture. I wonder why it wasn't utilized. I would go back to it and use the steering parts for the CJ3A. The bell crank on the axle was a bad idea for various reasons. I would set the steering up as a CJ3A, and abandon the bell crank mount on the axle.

Here is a picture I found from another forum. The difference in the motor mount location will show a 2A frame from a 3A frame.

[BeninCT]

I think you have DJ-3A that someone put axles and a transfer case under, from an old model GPW. When the front axle is cleaned up lets take a closer look at it. The original bell crank mount is visible in your picture. I wonder why it wasn't utilized. I would go back to it and use the steering parts for the CJ3A. The bell crank on the axle was a bad idea for various reasons. I would set the steering up as a CJ3A, and abandon the bell crank mount on the axle.

Here is a picture I found from another forum. The difference in the motor mount location will show a 2A frame from a 3A frame.

I definitely have that setup. So then I have a DJ tub on a 3A frame for sure or is there anything else to check? Need to confirm my axles. So far all the parts diagrams i have seen match the 3A so this would agree with my research so far….

[BeninCT]

That is how it is set up- yes.

[bmorgil]

I think you have a DJ tub on a DJ frame. I think someone got a hold of an old jeep power train and stuck it underneath a genuine DJ. A very rare Jeep to say the least! I would be tempted to try to return it to that status. It would be fairly easy using the surplus of 2 wheel drive postal Jeeps out there. The stopper is the transmission. The two wheel drive transmission could be near impossible to find. The rear tail shaft on the transmission is different because there was no transfer case. The postal jeeps are typically all column shifted and usually right hand steer. There are some left hands out there but, they are rare. Does your steering column look like it used to have a shifter or was it originally a floor shift?

You have a real interesting find no question.

[gmwillys]

What we have here is a conglomeration of a lot of different Jeeps. The front axle is from an MB, or WWII Jeep due to the steering bell crank being mounted to the axle. The frame looks to be a CJ 3A 4X4, with how the front frame horns step up on the top frame, and the lack of crossmember brackets. You are correct that the military frames did have the provision for a machine gun mount, to which your frame does not have, (it would have been welded onto the most forward rear crossmember to be placed in the center of the rear cargo floor. The top is an option, (dealer installed) but the rocker panels being cut on your DJ body was done after purchase, or so I thought. The last link at the bottom shoes what appears to be a factory DJ with the same door modifications that look original. Another feature that says that your tub is a DJ is the round speedometer with integrated oil and water gages.

The photos are 1) An M38A1 frame with the squared machine gun mount affixed to the crossmember. The earlier ones were round. 2) This is an late CJ2A or early CJ3A frame that has the engine mounts directly across from one another. 3) another shot of the previously mentioned frame, just more of the rear hitch. 4) This is an M38 frame that had the machine gun mount removed before I purchased it.

DJ example links;

http://www.ewillys.com/2022/06/23/1956-dj-3a-branson-mo-3500/

http://www.ewillys.com/2018/06/19/1964-dj-3a-navy-orange-county-ca-12500/

http://www.ewillys.com/2010/06/08/1959-dj-3a-berkeley-springs-wv-ebay/

[bmorgil]

I knew gm would get in here and straighten things out! The rear axle is also out of an old Jeep, most likely the rear axle, front axle, transfer case, and driveshaft all came out of the same MB or WWII era Jeep.

I am looking at some of the pictures in the Galley and I am wondering if someone didn't take a left hand steer Postal Jeep (they are DJ's) and set it on a MB or WWII Jeep power train. It looks like it was painted white at sometime in its life. The door opening is the same and it sure looks like the same top. The picture below is a right hand drive. I have read that left hand drives are also out there.

This is interesting:
http://www.ewillys.com/2017/01/16/1955-photo-of-mail-jeep-dispatcher/

[BeninCT]

What we have here is a conglomeration of a lot of different Jeeps. The front axle is from an MB, or WWII Jeep due to the steering bell crank being mounted to the axle. The frame looks to be a CJ 3A 4X4, with how the front frame horns step up on the top frame, and the lack of crossmember brackets. You are correct that the military frames did have the provision for a machine gun mount, to which your frame does not have, (it would have been welded onto the most forward rear crossmember to be placed in the center of the rear cargo floor. The top is an option, (dealer installed) but the rocker panels being cut on your DJ body was done after purchase, or so I thought. The last link at the bottom shoes what appears to be a factory DJ with the same door modifications that look original. Another feature that says that your tub is a DJ is the round speedometer with integrated oil and water gages.

The photos are 1) An M38A1 frame with the squared machine gun mount affixed to the crossmember. The earlier ones were round. 2) This is an late CJ2A or early CJ3A frame that has the engine mounts directly across from one another. 3) another shot of the previously mentioned frame, just more of the rear hitch. 4) This is an M38 frame that had the machine gun mount removed before I purchased it.

DJ example links;

http://www.ewillys.com/2022/06/23/1956-dj-3a-branson-mo-3500/

http://www.ewillys.com/2018/06/19/1964-dj-3a-navy-orange-county-ca-12500/

http://www.ewillys.com/2010/06/08/1959-dj-3a-berkeley-springs-wv-ebay/

So, I agree based on what I have read. I 100% have a factory DJ tub with a factory top- the serial number agrees with info available online stating that it is a 1960 body. I have the staggered motor mounts, no machine gun mount, no diagonal bracing in rear and I have a rear, under floor gas tank which was making me think it was the original DJ frame but power washing it yesterday I started to see green paint on the drivetrain and darker colors on the frame (looks black).

Was there paint on the frames from the factory??????

Other thing that may lend some insight here is the transmission. I don’t know what model it is but it looks different from most I have seen. Maybe its older and is an indicator that this is an older model frame and running gear? Here is the trans I have. Also adding a shot of the numbers on the engine block if that is any indicator of the age.

98189819

Thank you all for working on this with me!

[BeninCT]

I have read that link- I think the drivetrain will tell the tale. Jeep was originally white like this picture- 9820

I hope I am not breaking any hearts here but I am not going to re-use that top. We are headed towards a “resto mod” rather than a factory original restoration so that top is up for grabs if anyone wants it (Free). I have a plow for the jeep as well if anyone is interested. Let me know I can post pictures.

[bmorgil]

The transmission is a T84. One more indicator that the power train came out of an MB or the like. The engine casting number also indicates an early L134. The pre-1952 blocks had a small flange and a casting number of 641087. A change was made to increase the flange on the block. Some 641087 castings will have the large flange if they were cast during the change. Then the block casting number changed to 804380 after 1952.

[BeninCT]

ok so then body tub is 1960 per S/N plate and engine is pre-52. Lots to learn!

Thanks for the info on the trans.

Will have to get axle info and see what else there is to learn.

My son has a YouTube channel he started to chronicle what is happening. He’s never had one so he’s learning but its better than expected. Will be more technical as time goes on but here is the link if anyone is interested. He is 18 and doing this for a high school senior project (optional class for extra street cred- no grades). I am helping but he wants to do most of it.

https://youtu.be/SldMYZcb7cs

[bmorgil]

I checked out the YouTube. Some good looks there. I paused it a few times to check out some detail. On the dash it looks like a lot of damage around the column cutout, where the external linkage for a column shifter might have scraped things up. I would say there is a good chance it was a column shifted 3 speed DJ originally.

[TJones]

Very nice video!!!
What stood out to me was the rear axle assembly, maybe gm or bmorgil can enlighten us on it.
The rear axle is a different hub, I’ve never seen a big axle hub on a Jeep like you have here. It looks more like a Dana 60 instead of the Dana 44’s that came in Jeeps back in the day.

[bmorgil]

That's an MB/GBW axle in the rear as well as the front.

[BeninCT]

@TJones thanks- still trying to figure out what I have!

@Bmorgil is there a place I can go to see what axles look like what? I have to search them for model numbers. We power washed it but was so filthy I couldn’t crawl around and look and it rained for 2 days after…

[bmorgil]

If you Google "willys jeep axle identification" you will get a lot of images. https://www.google.com/search?q=willys+jeep+axle+identification&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALiCzsZH2NaxTPQt14g_2Ey7YbZd17W7ug%3A1662635 003686&ei=-8sZY9e5KdPk5NoP5rOh0AQ&ved=0ahUKEwiXo6SGhoX6AhVTMlkFHeZZCEoQ4dUDCA0&oq=willys+jeep+axle+identification&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAwyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQ QsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQQs AMyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAMyCggAEEcQ1gQQsAN KBAhBGABKBAhGGABQAFgAYOXABWgBcAF4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBA MgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

Also, the g503.com website is a good place to investigate the power train you have. Your axles and transmission are from an MB/GPW.

Originally those axles were designed by Spicer for Studebaker.

[BeninCT]

How big a tire can be run on these axles before steering will be too difficult? Width more than height is what I am asking…

Got her torn down to frame, axles now. Wire brushing beginning- chassis is in good shape with just some pitting from rust but nothing is rusted away.

[TJones]

Anything you put on it above 8” is going to be a hand full to turn without power steering, the other thing to keep in mind is without a offset wheel it will start rubbing on the springs. You can put pretty wide tires on these old gems with the right offset wheels.
I forget the the actual size I put on mine but I’m thinking they are 10”w x 15” and 32”s tall, but I installed the Buick V-6 and added power steering so it’s very easy to handle.
Probably not a lot of help, but the Wizards will come in and tell ya what size will work well for ya I’m sure of that, once again it all depends on what your intentions are for it.

[bmorgil]

A loaded question there. The effort to turn the wheel is going to be more of a factor of the weight of the vehicle.These things are fairly light. They are manual steering and it takes a bit of effort no matter the tire width. You are restricted in the tire size by the frame. At some point the tire will hit the frame. The taller the tire the narrower it must be. The wider the tire the shorter it must be. If you follow TJ's suggestion on offsets, you can put some monsters on there. At some point with offsets and no power steering, it will get too difficult to turn. That all depends on what you determine is too difficult. If you stick to stock offset rims you wont notice the extra effort of the widest, tallest tires you can get on.

[BeninCT]

Your axles and transmission are from an MB/GPW.


We have been busy with football season and injuries but all better now. We wire wheeled the whole frame and axles and got them painted up so getting ready to re-assemble the axles back onto the frame with new front springs. Back at trying to sort out what axles I have because no matter how much I tinker with the brake shoe adjustment screws, the wheels are nearly impossible to turn. Took 4 guys to push the jeep hard.

So, here are some pics of my axles. I am pretty confident that the front is a Dana 25 but not sure about the rear and your statement above has me wondering what the implications are. If they are MB/GPW axles (they were originally OD green), what do I have for a frame/running gear? I am pretty sure I have a DJ body sitting on a different/4x4 frame.

[bmorgil]

That is a very old Salisbury/Spicer 25 model in the front and an equally historic Salisbury/Spicer model 27 in the rear. Both from a Willys MB or GPW. I would say they are both pre-1950.

[BeninCT]

That is a very old Salisbury/Spicer 25 model in the front and an equally historic Salisbury/Spicer model 27 in the rear. Both from a Willys MB or GPW. I would say they are both pre-1950.

Looks like I have a full Frankenstein lol.

Going to research this more and see if I can figure out exactly which brakes I have and which pads I need. For now I might just grind the tips off the shoes where they go into the cylinders to create a tiny bit of clearance (like take off 1/32”) so I can roll the thing.

Standard Dana 25 front end parts from KW seem to be correct for my front end. Havent needed anything for the rear yet…

[BeninCT]

Been too long but I wanted to circle back with the forum as I really do appreciate the help offered by everyone.

We have been working away all winter and have disassembled and re-assembled this old willys and it’s running again. Took the hard way and wire wheeled/ground off all the paint on the frame/axles/body and made our repairs, painted the chassis gloss black and the body Desert Tan raptor liner which I like because it has a bit of a nod to the military history but isnt OD green since this is a DJ.

We bought it on the promise that it ran so never heard it run but it started right up and runs pretty free of smoke and very little blow by. Retained factory axles, engine, transmission etc. including driveshafts though new U joints. New wiring, added tail lights and signals, found some seats and modified them to fit since we had none.

HUGE amount of work and it wasnt all a blast but boy riding in it sure is and the amount my son learned while working with me, the amount I learned and the look on his face when it finally started will never be forgotten. PLUS we got a fun little toy to ride around in!

Going to try to post some pics now…

[BeninCT]

Ok that worked so here’s a couple more.

[bmorgil]

Absolutely awesome you guy's! You and your son have a lot of memories there and more to make. Using it is definitely the best part!

[LarrBeard]

I like the color and texture of the paint job. They fit the beast nicely.

Now, you either need a windshield or goggles ---

[LarrBeard]

OMG - that's about the worst tub we've seen ....

[BeninCT]

Absolutely awesome you guy's! You and your son have a lot of memories there and more to make. Using it is definitely the best part!

Thank you! Been slow in responding because I broke my kneecap about 10 mins after I made the last post! LOTS of memories and we are just getting started! Thanks for all the help


I like the color and texture of the paint job. They fit the beast nicely.

Now, you either need a windshield or goggles ---

Glasses until the windshield shows up. Mirrors for state inspection, have since installed seatbelts too. Thanks for your help./comments.

[BeninCT]

OMG - that's about the worst tub we've seen ....

The floor replacement was easier than the dent repairs in the rear quarters and this is my first bit of body work I have ever done so it didnt come out perfect but I don’t think there is bondo any thicker than 3/32” anywhere. We started with an aluminum baseball bat held under the rear fenders and I was hitting it with a 5# maul lol. Progressed down to body hammers/dollies and the slapper but never got it perfect. Was too far gone but for a first time and a high school kid we are proud and there isnt anything that really jumps out as poorly done (yet!).

[bmorgil]

That is looking great. You are going to be an expert at early Jeep body work!

[BeninCT]

Against my will!