My first vehicle! 1956 CJ5

[bmorgil]

One thing to remember to do when rebuilding these carbs. Be absolutely sure you push a very small wire through all the circuits Especially the individual Jets and Tubes. I have written before about the nozzles having corrosion in them even when brand new. It happened to mine, and I have seen it many times in old carbs. We have had a few members who have had it happen.The idle jet nozzle is very small and long. Really a bad idea when it comes to getting clogged. If the smallest piece of corrosion or dirt is in the idle nozzle (item 5), the engine will not idle without the choke on.

This is a WO carb, but many carb's have a similar setup.


https://www.kaiserwillys.com/app/themes/kaiserwillys/assets/images/wysiwyg/FIG_113_fuel.jpg
This is a YF.

11482

[LarrBeard]

When I did a carburetor rebuild for the '48, I could not get the accelerator pump out of the cast body. Gunk and crud had glued it down!

I had soaked it in several different potions to no avail and I finally took the heat gun I use to shrink electrical sleeving and heated the cast body (very carefully).

Things stank and bubbled, but after a bit I was able to get the end of a pick under the pump and it came out. After that, it took a bit of cleaning and it went back together smoothly.

Mrs. Google has a lot of "Rebuild Carter YF carburetor" information - Mike's Carburetor video (Four parts if I recall) is well done, thorough and easy to follow.

[56willys]

Thank you for all the feedback! I followed Larry's advice and used a electric heat gun to heat up the carb. Just a little bit of heating and all the remaining parts came out with ease. I blew some air through all the passageways inside and they are all clear. I must say I am impressed by how many passageways and how small they are for machining in the 50s. I can imagine it being difficult to machine back then.

So next I'll have to get it cleaned really well, and then start reassembly.

[bmorgil]

Whatever you do 56' as I said before, be sure to get some very small wire and push it through every passage you find. In addition make sure the jets and nozzles in the rebuild kit are also clear. It is Very common for the brass components in the rebuild kit to pick up green corrosion from just sitting on the shelf. Air wont always get it out. Sometimes it needs a little scratching. I have had to pull a few "freshly" rebuilt carbs back apart to clear "new" components.

[56willys]

Whatever you do 56' as I said before, be sure to get some very small wire and push it through every passage you find. In addition make sure the jets and nozzles in the rebuild kit are also clear. It is Very common for the brass components in the rebuild kit to pick up green corrosion from just sitting on the shelf. Air wont always get it out. Sometimes it needs a little scratching. I have had to pull a few "freshly" rebuilt carbs back apart to clear "new" components.



I will run some wire through the passageways, like always I appreciate the advice. I also just got an ultrasonic cleaner so I will put some parts in that for cleaning. And I'll run wire through to clean as well. I was just blowing air through as preliminary testing and to figure out where all the passageways connect.

Question; the throttle plate has some surface rust on it. After cleaning the rust off, is there some sort of coating I should apply or will it be okay just bare? I mean it did take 60 years and who knows how much of that was sitting outside not getting used but I am just wondering if that rust would come back?

[bmorgil]

The throttle plate and choke plate will be just fine. Polish them up and make sure you run it from time to time and it wont rust again!

The ultrasonic will do a nice job. That is what I use on my carburetors. I use hot water and the cleaning solution I have attached a link for. This is some good stuff. After an hour or so in the warm hot solution, It looks pretty good.

https://www.aircraft-tool.com/detail?id=BRANSON-MC3&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

(https://www.aircraft-tool.com/detail?id=BRANSON-MC3&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)

[56willys]

Wow, amazing transformation on your carb! Mine was a lot cleaner than what you started with. The rest of the jeep around yours got polished too, which won't happen on Flossy for a long time!

Thanks for the info on the throttle plate! I got it sanded and cleaned up. The choke plate I just roughly cleaned from the top since the screws did not want to unthread from the shaft. I don't want to risk stripping them.

I've just been cleaning and cleaning. A few runs in the ultrasonic cleaner with a little dawn dish shop actually got it cleaned up pretty nicely. Then I did some hand cleaning, it's by no means perfect but it will get the job done.

I got the master rebuild kit from KW. So next step is to start putting things back together. When I adjust the float, how much gap should it have? Some things I've seen say 3/8" but kaiser willys.com tech guide says for CJ5 it should be 5/16"

[bmorgil]

Dawn dish soap is magic. peeJ wishes she wasn't so clean, not allowed out of the garage on anything other than warm summer days!

The screws treads in the throttle are brass and staked (smashed) in on the back. To remove them you file the backside of the threads off down to the throttle shaft and then unscrew them. If you tried that and they are stuck, you may have to use heat and quench it with some wax.

I have always set the choke to level, and then I see how it runs. The problem is there are a couple different needle and seat assemblies out there originally, a few different fuel pumps and pressures being used, and the aftermarket also has a few different float assemblies. 5/16" from the bottom of the gasket to the top of the float, with the carb upside down and the weight of the float only, is the factory setting. There was also a float on the DJ and some others that was 9/32". You cant measure this close, the practice is to make or use a gauge. I hold the carb upside down and level the top of the float to the bottom of the carb top. That is an old "rule of thumb" when you don't have a gauge or, your not near the shop. It is almost always a good start. I have yet to have a carb not work for me with that as a preliminary and usually permanent, first adjustment. Some carb and vehicle combinations are very fussy about the final float level. I have found so far, the Carter's on the 134's are not real fussy. If you have the 2.5 lbs float and a 4 psi fuel pump, you may have to set the float a bit lower, or regulate the pressure with a fuel pump spacer.

[gmwillys]

That's why our Heep will stay in the raw. Rain is no problem, just buff it down a couple of times a year to get the sheet metal shine to come back. The engine bay is crusty with mud stains now, but we have fun bush whacking in it. PeeJ is an extraordinary example of what a better than new Jeep can be, and I would love to have one that clean to put next to the Heep, but if I where have to choose, I'll take the Heep for a daily parts/grocery runner.

[bmorgil]

I had an awesome ride in the Heep gm! I can honestly say off roading in a vintage 6 volt CJ, no top no doors, standing up hanging on to the windshield, is an experience worth repeating, many times. However, my "vintage back" taught me to enjoy a smooth 5 mph roll in the parade lines. I love em all, even if they aren't running.

[LarrBeard]

BMorgil mentions fuel pressure. About half of folks find that new fuel pumps will develop more pressure than the float/needle combination will effectively regulate.

You can reduce fuel pump pressure by adding a spacer between the pump and the block, but another option is to add a regulator to the fuel line between the pump and carburetor. The '48 tended to overfill and flood, with several carburetors, until I added a regulator.

I set it to 2 1/2 PSI and it has worked like a charm ever since - but you may not need one.

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/fuel-pressure-regulator-and-control/p/mr-gasket-1-6-psi-fuel-pressure-regulator-and-control/833011_0_0?cmpid=OSA:US&srsltid=AfmBOoqbFT4SK30UH7bQhKnWxFz_AN6Y9C-ul4YNSDuVFDacyTWYtr3TDnY

Good Luck and keep us informed on what's happening.

[56willys]

I'll probably put the float in level and then I can always fine-tune it after some running.

I have to say I love seeing shiny restored jeeps and I have so much respect for the work put into them to make it so nice. But it is nice to go offroading and use your jeep instead of spending all day cleaning.If you want to drive in rain or on a dirt road or bash the side into a rockbon the trail, it don't matter. But I do love looking at them pretty shined up jeeps!

As far as fuel pressure, I know the pump is old and has worked without issue so far. I'll keep the pressure regulator in mind as I get it tuned up.

[56willys]

We had some awesome weather today so it was nice to be outside. So I rolled the chassis out of storage and tried my hand at soldering the radiator. I found some solder at the local tractor store that is specially engineered for radiators. And I got a can of map gas. I pulled the rad. out since now that the fenders are off I noticed the bottom of the bracket was broken. I had thought it was just the top that needed fixing. But oh well now I get more practice soldering. So I cleaned it up with a wire wheel, and melted the old solder off. It looked like the top had been repaired before, there was lots of solder buildup. Then I clamped the side bracket in place and applied some heat. Then melted solder down through and presto I fixed the side bracket and didn't melt any thing. So my first attempt at soldering is a success!! I'm glad you guys steered me away from brazing, because the solder took such little heat that I had alot less worry about melting through the radiator.

[bmorgil]

It looks just right 56'! You definitely saved yourself some money on the DIY there. Those radiators might as well be made of gold for what they cost, and cost to repair.

[56willys]

Things were really happening at the shop today. I set the body back onto the frame temporarily to measure for body mounts/hat channels. There was so little left on the passenger side that I couldn't tell where it all lined up, so a quick mockup to make everything square and figure out the mount locations. This is temporary but oh man it looks so good to actually see a jeep again! And it's sitting so much better now that the sides aren't sagging and it's all straight.

I also got the radiator in back in place.

[56willys]

I'm still slowly cleaning the carburetor. I got it to where the outside is clean enough for my liking. But the inside I don't know of it needs more or not. I ran some wire through all the holes, and scraped out most of the corrosion. I don't know how critical it is, there's still some discoloring of the aluminum, and a little bit of corrosion, but all the dirt and gunk is gone. I'll probably hand clean alittle more then run a final ultrasonic cleaner cycle. Then maybe I can start reassembly.

I have cleaned the inside more since this picture. But looking for expertise if it needs to be cleaned more.

I also cleaned and painted the base plate and the exterior brackets

[gmwillys]

Looking great 56. I like to verify the body mount/hat channel locations before making everything permanent, even if I'm nearly certain to where the original was located.

The carb is looking good too. If you are certain it's clean, and you have checked every nook and cranny, then you should be good to go. Bmorgil recommends using a sonic cleaner to put the aluminum pieces in, and it is a great tip. I haven't invested in one at this point, but I'll be looking for one when they come on sale for such jobs. Luckily, knock on wood, I don't have any carb issues with the Heep, so it hasn't been a priority.

[TJones]

Man!!!
You are doing a bang up job there 56, it looks awesome!!!!

[bmorgil]

Great progress there 56'! You can see it coming together now.

I have rebuilt many carbs with a couple of spray cans of carb cleaner and the straw they give you to direct the blast of cleaner and nothing else. Using the straw and compressed air in the can, the carb cleaner is blasted through every passage, after the wire goes through if possible. In the old days there were no Ultra-Sonic cleaners. You soaked them in carb cleaning solutions for a day or two. If you have thoroughly cleaned the passages and tubes and jets, give it a good rinse and a thorough blow out with an air gun and you cant ask for anything more. Making them pretty is nice but, not required. The only things you need to be absolutely sure of is, no pieces of corrosion remain inside that can come loose, and all the passages are clear. It never ceases to amaze me how particles too small to see easily will stop a carb.

[56willys]

Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement!!!

Today was another successful day, I bolted the fenders on and got the body positioned straight. The sides are about 1/4" off square but I think it will be okay. I know it's a million times straighter than it was a couple months ago. And I can't imagine the factory having tight tolerances, so I think I'll roll with it. I measured for all the remaining body mounts. And added some flanges on my homemade floor riser. Since I used tubing instead of the formed sheetmetal like factory, there wasn't enough room for bolts in the correct location. So I welded some 1/8" plate to the tubing on the same angle as the frame. (It's right where the frame arches up for the axle) And I drilled new holes whre it will clear the tubing. I also found that for some reason the trans tunnel, though I made it bigger than factory is just barely resting on the t-case. So I'll need to modify that.

Then I pulled the tub back off to finish welding. And I started getting the framework made. I haven't got any tubing in yet but the main piece is ready to weld tomorrow.


On the carb;
I scraped and cleaned still more, I wire brushed the corrosion in the bottom of the bowl. And ran it through another cycle in the ultrasonic cleaner. And scraped wire through holes again then blew them out with carb cleaner and the air hose.
So there's still alittle corrosion on the bottom of the bowl, but with carb cleaner, wire brushing, and even scrapping with a flat screwdriver it hasn't come off. So I think it will be okay.

[bmorgil]

You are definitely on a roll there 56', not long now. Plus or minus 1/4" sounds like the factory spec! You did the carb the best you can. It sounds like you scrubbed her out pretty good! The good news is its your carb and you know it pretty well. If it starts to give you trouble you know what to do. It sounds to me like it is going to be just fine.

[56willys]

Finished the passenger side floor supports. So now the front floor is completely done!! I Built a box on the drivers floor, since i put the tubing in about an inch off. So I welded some plate to the floor, then another plate flush with the tubing and boxed the sides off. It should be plenty strong, I just wanted something so the bolt won't pull through the 16 guage floor. It's not finish welded, 11 o'clock was getting a little late for a school night, so I'll clean it up tomorrow!

I think the carb will be okay, not the prettiest but nothing else on the jeep is clean, so it won't stand out. As for Bob's comment about me knowing what to do if it gives me trouble. That's why I wanted to rebuild it myself. Yea I could pay someone to fix it and it would be perfect. But then the day it floods or won't idle I'll have no clue what to do. I got the last of the screws and brackets painted, so the only thing stopping assembly is me getting away from that welder!

[gmwillys]

The best day of fabricating, is when you stand back and see how far you've come along. It seems to take forever, but the struggle is worth every stitch.

[LarrBeard]

"... 11 o'clock was getting a little late for a school night, ..."

If I remember from your initial sign-in, you're still in high school?

[56willys]

"... 11 o'clock was getting a little late for a school night, ..."

If I remember from your initial sign-in, you're still in high school?


Correct, I'm currently trying to get through 11th grade. Although somehow i find learning about vehicles made 60 years before I was born more interesting then algebra!!!

[gmwillys]

Keep at it 56. You'll be able to drive your Jeep through your Senior year. I drove my wagon my sophomore year and it was nick named the aquarium. It was a blast to drive around, but with the low gearing and the V8, the fuel milage wasn't in the budget, even at the low cost of fuel back then.

[56willys]

I finished the floor riser. I just filled in the opening between the tubing with some sheet metal. It's not factory correct but it will work just fine. Then I starting fitting metal for the bed floor. I cut the bottom lip off the inner fenders where the floor was pinch welded. Being 2 piece of steel together it was completely rotten. So I cut that back to where the floor sits. And I made some angle iron that will weld to the inner fender and give me something to lay the floor to. I didn't get any pics of this tonight but I will tomorrow. So that is fitted for both sides, then I got some sheet cut out for the floor. So everything is ready for assembly, so I'll get it welded tomorrow.

For the bed floor I'll just have flat sheet metal. So it won't have any support ribs. But I will have a few supports under neath that will make it plenty strong. However I don't really want the look of just flat steel. So a buddy of mine had the idea to make some wood strips about 1 inch wide and lay them down in place of formed ribs. Kind of like the willys wagons had. So I think that's what I'll do, I have some nice oak that I can plane and router to look nice. I think it will be something different and look cooler then flat steel. But that still a ways away, and something I can do after the tub is back on the frame and driving.

[56willys]

Keep at it 56. You'll be able to drive your Jeep through your Senior year. I drove my wagon my sophomore year and it was nick named the aquarium. It was a blast to drive around, but with the low gearing and the V8, the fuel milage wasn't in the budget, even at the low cost of fuel back then.


Thats awesome!! But hey, it's not miles per gallon that count, its smiles per gallon. Although the bank account doesn't agree! An old willys is so much fun to have during high-school (and anytime) then I can have it for the rest of my life. I'm just grateful to be able to have one now, and hopefully it will be good and reliable for graduation.

[gmwillys]

The key thing is, (and I'm sure you hear this all the time) enjoy this time in your journey through life. The skills and knowledge that you have been honing and acquiring through the course of this project will last you your lifetime. We don't see too many young people interested in manual labor. The internet is full of store bought rides, but you will always know what it took for your Jeep to live again.

[bmorgil]

You are really doing well on the project 56'! A lot of progress there. You hit it right on the money with "....Smiles per gallon". I think you can tell, the old guys are diggin' your work!

[56willys]

I tried my hand at rebuilding the carb today. Here's some pics of the inside, any criticism is appreciated! I think everything is okay. I ended up reusing the idle jet since the new one from KW was slightly different. The only thing I'm wondering about is the accelerator pump assembly. The bar that connects the pump to the throttle shaft seems like it has a lot of slop before it moves anything. But I really don't know how it all works so maybe that's normal?

[56willys]

Here's the finished product. It actually looks better in person. The flash tends to highlight imperfections, but I think it turned out pretty good. Now I just need the rest of the jeep put together to test it. Maybe this weekend I'll roll the chassis out and do some bootleg assembly enough to see if it will fire and idle.

This probably won't be my long term carb. I'll probably rebuild flossys original to run permanently, so I didn't go crazy making this one perfect. I just wanted to see if I could make a carb work, in fear off messing up flossys carb.

[56willys]

Here's the rear floor almost installed. I got the angle iron welded on the sides and the sheet meatl is fit and lightly tacked to hold. I need to make some more crossmembers then I can completely weld the floor. But all in all, it's in and looks sweet. I'm so pumped to have floors, now front to back, side to side. This is the first time in a year and a half of ownership I've seen Flossy with complete floors!!

[gmwillys]

Well done 56! You'll have the body mounted in no time. Your carb rebuild looks good too for your first time. Now you can get it mounted up and tuned to perfection.

[bmorgil]

I agree with gm on all counts!

The accelerator pump should be checked for exactly what you are looking at 56'. It is imperative that the accelerator pump delivers fuel as soon as the throttle moves off of idle. If it does not, the engine will stumble. Once your carb is assembled, turn the idle screw in until you see the throttle blade begin to move. When the throttle blade starts to move the accelerator pump should also begin to pump.

[TJones]

Great Job 56!!!!

Couple Things, Why are you not teaching Auto Mechanics Class at School?????

How do you get your pictures so LARGE???
That's pretty amazing!!!!

[Catlewis]

Couple of things to be aware of, #1. very often these old carbs deteriorate around both of the shafts that run thru the main body housing {one for the choke, the other at the bottom} and create a vacuum leak around those shafts. I had to have mine drilled out and new bushings installed for proper function. #2. Make certain your underbody cross members align with body mount locations on the frame. As others have stated, the work you've done looks great!

[56willys]

Thank you, everyone!!

Cat, the throttle shaft did have some slop,but I don't think it is too much. Just a tiny bit, although I hadn't thought of that causing vacuum leaks. And yes I did measure for the rear crossmember. The factory only had 2 under the bed floor, but I'm putting 3. One lined up for the frame and the other 2 spaced front-back, just for more support. I do appreciate the reminder, it's easy to forget!

TJ, Well I'm actually home-schooled, and I'm the youngest in the family therefore the only student left. Although I wouldn't mind teaching at a trade school or something, as a future job, I might actually enjoy that. Although I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough, I still have much to learn. Even outside of cars, if you haven't noticed my writing is not really superb!! I don't t know how my photos work, I just upload from gallery and it's alway worked! I don't really know why they come out bigger.

Bm, when I move the throttle the metering rod comes up and the accelerator pump shaft moves. All pretty quick with throttle movement. So it's probably okay, I must have just not paid enough attention to how it was before.

[bmorgil]

....... Although I wouldn't mind teaching at a trade school or something, as a future job, I might actually enjoy that. Although I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough, I still have much to learn. Even outside of cars, if you haven't noticed my writing is not really superb!! I don't t know how my photos work, I just upload from gallery and it's always worked! I don't really know why they come out bigger. ...


Teaching is a noble profession. It is in my opinion the most important thing some humans can provide to others. It creates evolution. Without it we don't survive very well.

Your a little too hard on yourself 56', people who are not knowledgeable enough are easy to spot. They know it all and don't need any help. They don't listen very well. They are often wrong and spend a lot of time and money on the wrong things.

We all have much to learn till the day we die, trust me!

Your writing is superb. LarrBeard will attest. If LarrBeard approves your writing, that's all that matters.

No one fully understands the photo's! In most cases it appears to be a "cell phone thing". With my Android, if I hold the phone horizontally, with the bottom of the phone to my right, the photo's are correct. I think.

[gmwillys]

You don't have to be a subject matter expert to teach. Whe I was in school, our metal shop teacher was a retired Army drill instructor, and the auto shop teacher was a former Chicago cop. The world can always use more instructors.

[LarrBeard]

"Even outside of cars, if you haven't noticed my writing is not really superb!!"

I would take issue with that. Your writing is concise, well organized and grammatically acceptable to the forum in which it is being presented. In my real job years ago, I supervised a herd of engineers.

Some of the most talented engineers could not describe the process of pouring body fluids out of a boot and as a result, many of their great ideas and solutions would be passed over in favor of lesser ideas that were better described by another engineer.

The solution to that was to assign a great writer to help the brilliant engineer (and then to get both of them to admit that they were good at different things).

Keep on Jeepin' and keep on writing.

[gmwillys]

56, larrbeard is 100 percent correct in regards to educated idiots. I too work with engineering, and some of the most educated are punctuation illiterate. If you wouldn't have told us that you were in high school, we would have never of guessed it. The under thirty crowd can usually be spotted pretty quick with the shorthand abbreviations. You've gained a lot of respect from all of us for your well thought out questions. Keep up the good work and shoot for your ambition to teach. You'll be a good one.

[56willys]

Ya'll are way too good to me, I try to be humble and you guys make me feel like a genius. Oh man gm, a drill instructor for a teacher. Atleast he wasn't your gym teacher!

I've just been continuing welding the bed floor, trying to go slow and not get any warps in it. Nothing really too exciting happening.

[LarrBeard]

gmwillys has taught us that one of the secrets to welding sheet metal pieces onto old metal is to do it like house training a puppy; piddle a little and move on. Piddle some more and move on... After a while, all of the piddles make a puddle (so to speak).

Good work!

[gmwillys]

That about sums up the process Chief.

[56willys]

I finished welding the bed floor tonight. I did over heat it so there's a bump in the middle, so that kinda sucks, but all in all it's in and plenty strong. So I'd say it's a success. Then I started to repair the tool box. The channel that run around the perimeter is completely rotten in the back. So I hammered some sheet metal to re0lace that. It's still needs lots of fine tuning but it's a start.


I also scored some cool stuff at the Spring Carlisle swap meet. I found a tailgate (with willys script), the one I had, someone had tried to repair the bottom since it was rusted. But they just piled angle iron on it. Which wasn't a problem before, but now that the rear valence has been fixed, the gate won't close. So I found this one pretty cheap and it's really nice condition. There's no rust on it (I know that's hard to believe about parts for flossy) I also found a brand new bestop bikini top that was super cheap, and a supertrap muffler. I'll try on flossy, it might sound cool.

[gmwillys]

Depending on how much of a ripple you have on the rear floor, you can apply heat to the high part and quench it with a rag drenched in ice water. That will shrink the high spot to where it is less noticeable.

The tail gate is quite the find! The super trap will be interesting to hear. You'll have to report back with your findings.

[bmorgil]

The original floor wasn't the smoothest thing 56'. I would say gm's method will get you close enough.

Definitely a find on the tailgate. No rust on a scripted tailgate is a rare find indeed.

[56willys]

Continuing hacking and welding the toolbox. I got the top done, aside from some time with the grinder cleaning my welds. And I made a patch that will finish the front wall, but I didn't get it welded yet.

I'll try that technique and try to eliminate some of the ripple in the floor. I'm not too concerned about it, except that it's right in the middle where if you put anything in the bed it pops. I'm definitely curious to see what the muffler sounds like.

[gmwillys]

Looking good.

There are also shrinking disks that you can purchase to fit to your grinder. You run the disk over the high spot until it shrikes the metal.

https://www.amazon.com/Dog-River-Tools-Shrinking-Disc/dp/B08286D2Q9

[56willys]

Today I tried heating the high spot on the floor with map gas, then quenched with a wet rag. I did it a few times, and it's better but not perfect. But I did get it better, it's probably completely fine. I'm just bummed out since that's about the worst spot it could have happened. I'll just be forever reminded of my welding mistake every time I set something in the bed and hear the floor pop. But oh well I guess I'll add it to the list of flossy quirks.

Then I got the front of the tool box patched (pictures coming soon) . It just needs a little more welding then I need to get some new hinges for the lid, and the toolbox will be good as new.

We've had a guy come this past week to start taking down some trees by the house. And the whole time I'm hauling wood with the old garden tractor, that in high gear is a fast walking pace. I just keep thinking how much fun it would be to put flossy to work. An old willys would be the absolute most perfect tool right now, if only I had one..... :(

[gmwillys]

Don't fret the small stuff. It happens. On the M38A1 I did several years back, I got a whole lot cocky / impatient or both. The passenger floor was going together well, until it didn't. One corner pulled up pretty bad. I lucked out and had it happen to where no one on the top side would ever see it being within the tool box. But I know it's there.

[bmorgil]

56', like you said your "putting Flossy to work". That floor will work just fine and it ill probably always have something sitting on it!

[56willys]

Today, maybe since the metal cooled down more? But now it's much better, before if I pushed on the top it would pop and stay down. Then upon applying pressure to the bottom it would pop and stay up. (I think they call it the oil can effect??) But now today it just flexes a little then springs back, without popping or staying bent. So I can totally live with that. Like Bob said, I'll have stuff in it all the time anyways. That's why I'm keeping the body rough. I'd love to build a shiny jeep like PeeJ but for now I want to be a ble to drive, offroad, and work without fearing scratching my expensive perfect paint job. And all I have to do is buy another willys and restore it, then I have the show jeep and I have the run through the woods, go rock crawling jeep.

[gmwillys]

Good deal on the floor 56. Oil can is the correct term for the ripple. It's much more fun to use your Jeep as intended, and have fun too.

[bmorgil]

There are all kinds of Jeeps running around in every stage of repair or restore you could imagine. I think they all contain a common thread, Lots of Fun! The most important thing you could do with one of these is build it for what you want it to do. It will, and you will love it.

[56willys]

So here's pics of the front of the toolbox repaired. It still needs some welding and then cleanup. I also boxed in the angle iron support under the bed floor where it bolts to the frame. And made a support for the rear body mount. The back panel is too rusted, that to get to weldable steel I'd have to basically rebuild the entire rear panel. So I welded a chunk of tubing from the floor support, with a plate on the end I can bolt through. I got one side done and then I ran out of welding wire. I also got the new tailgate mounted, drilled out holes and got the hinges lined up right. So now the only welding left is the other rear body mount, and I need to rework the trans tunnel. When the tub was on the frame I noticed it was just resting on the transfercase. Then I should be done welding on the body. It's getting exciting!!

[gmwillys]

Your welds are getting better by the day. The tailgate looks awesome, and right at home.

[TJones]

Looking Good 56, your on the home stretch now!!

On another note, is anyone else having to wait a longer than usual time for the forum to get loaded up or is it just me??
I was wondering if it’s bc so many people are online viewing :confused:

[bmorgil]

Looks great 56', you are doing well and making excellent progress. The body tub is very close to the transfer case. The rubber body mounts should be just enough lift to clear the transfer case by a "little". Some are closer than others. It will be close when it is all set in place but, not touching. You need a minimum of 1/4" to keep the two apart during motion. Various thickness of body mounts are out there, you can also make your own.

[56willys]

Looks great 56', you are doing well and making excellent progress. The body tub is very close to the transfer case. The rubber body mounts should be just enough lift to clear the transfer case by a "little". Some are closer than others. It will be close when it is all set in place but, not touching. You need a minimum of 1/4" to keep the two apart during motion. Various thickness of body mounts are out there, you can also make your own.
I was already planning on making my own body mount bushings, since the tubing i used in place of hat channels may not be the same thickness as original. But i'll probably reshape the tunnel alittle bit anyways just to be sure. I'd hate to get it painted and reassembled then find out the overdrive doesn't fit. And i have an ammo can i use as a center console so you can't see the tunnel at all, so it really doesn't matter if i had another hump in it.

[gmwillys]

Hockey pucks work pretty good unless you need taller mounts. Just drill a hole in the center, and there you go.

[bmorgil]

Like gm said, anything hard rubber will work. Depending on the thickness you need, cut pieces of conveyor belting also works extremely well. On my Jeep the mounts are the original thickness that came off, 1/2 inch thick.

[56willys]

The original bushings on flossy were ¼ inch. They must have changed from flat fenders?

Yesterday I installed a thermostat, there wasn't even one in it (not uncommon) maybe that's way it took forever to warmup on cold days. And I cut off the rear shock mounts. The shocks have absolutely zero pressure in them. I can slide it up and down with no force. I got new shocks and all new brackets, that should make it ride better. And I drilled out floor drains.

[51 CJ3]

Pretty common bubba fix is to remove the thermostat. I owned a CJ5 years ago that didn’t have one when I bought it. It would get hot in traffic and on trails but cool down nice on the open road. It performed better and more stable after I installed one but I still ended up adding an electric fan for trail use.

[gmwillys]

It's not a good idea to not run a thermostat at all. The water needs a resistor to slow it down when going through the radiator to get the heat transfer out of the water. If you do choose to remove a thermostat, cut the valve out of the center of the thermostat, and install the body of the thermostat to get your restriction. The small fans on the 134 really need a good fan shroud to be effective in traffic. Electric fans work well since they have an integrated shroud built into the assembly, so you don't lose suction through the radiator. Pusher fans are alright, but it reduces the surface area of your radiator by being blocked by the fan assembly.

I fought a cooling issue with the M38/3A Jeep that belonged to my father. It would sit there and idle all day at 185, but as soon as you would go for a drive, it would go along fine then spike to 210. The radiator had been flushed and pressure checked by a shop, but had been put on a shelf in the barn for a while. So when I dropped the coolant, the petcock kept getting plugged. Evidently, while the radiator was being stored, the necks were not covered with tape. There was a bunch of mud Dober mud that came out with the coolant when the hose was pulled.

[bmorgil]

The thickness of the body mounts varies a little bit. The original Jeep parts manual lists 3/16" as the #1 body hold down, 1/2" as the #2, 1/4" as the #3, and 1/8" as the #4,#5 and #6 liners. When you remove, repair and reinstall the body, it is going to need to be "re-fitted" to the frame. I wouldn't worry too much. Set it on the rubber so it doesn't touch anything but the rubber mounts you make. Mine are all the same thickness. Don't be concerned if it is not sitting flat. The body will "spring" when you remove it and do work on it. It will need to be pulled back into shape a bit when it cinches down to the frame.

[LarrBeard]

BMorgil and I did some science project work on thermostats several years ago.

Back when most of our Jeeps were new, thermostats were rated at the temperature at which they were fully open. If you had a 160 or 180 degree 'stat, at that temperature it would be as far open as it was going to get. Many modern thermostats are rated at the temperature at which they start to open. As a result, in my F134, the temperature gauge would show a temperature overshoot (with a 160 degree unit it would run up to close to 185) until the thermostat fully opened and then it would swing back down to 160. You were never sure if it was going to open or if it was stuck. Stuck thermostats make one heck of a mess!

BMorgil suggested a "full flow" racing thermostat that had a small bypass hole in it to allow water flow even when it was cold. (I never can remember the vendor), but a "full flow" thermostat will be a good solution to keep Flossy cool without hot flashes. GMWillys suggestion to add a small hole is a good idea if you have to use a conventional unit.

Keep at it - you are doing the right things.

[bmorgil]

That thermostat is still hard to find. It is sold as a Milodon 16400. Expensive little beast. It is rated as full open at 160.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/thermostats-mechanical?fr=part-type&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=milodon%2016400

[56willys]

Okay I was even wondering if I should drill a hole in the thermostat. Do you think I should pull it off and do so?

Also quick question, I'm working on the front shock mounts and I removed one and turns out it is curved to match the frame. The replacements from KW are flat. KW says they will work front or back and that there are the same. And they I can't even find mounts that are curved. I have a couple pics, it's kind of hard to see the difference in pics. The frame is boxed in on the front so I can't bolt the mount. So should I just fill the gap with weld, and or maybe a spacer. Or possibly grind the mount a little to match the frame.

Just wondering what I should do, I think it's weird KW doesn't even have different mounts and list these as four required, for front or back.

[bmorgil]

Sometimes you have to work with what yo have. If you can heat the bracket and "fit" it, that would be my choice. On mine I had one bad stud. I removed the old stud from the bracket and replaced it by welding in a new stud. You could repair your old bracket also and save the money on the one that doesn't fit.

[gmwillys]

You can do either that Bmorgil said. In my opinion, since you already have the new mount handy, clean the frame really well and start at one end welding the new bracket in. As you hear up the bracket during the welding, you can close up the gap with a C clamp. I'm pretty sure that's how it was done from the factory.

[56willys]

Thanks guys, I'll try bending it to fit, and welding it.

Saturday I finished cutting of the last old shock mounts. And started making a rear bumber. I got some c channel and have it mostly ready to go, just need a few more holes drilled. And patched a couple spots on the frame that were getting thin.

I also got the frame painted. Just quickly wire bushed to remove any loose debris, then brushed on some tractor paint. I'll probably paint the axles too, but I can always do that when the tub is on. I just wanted to protect the frame from rust and keep dirt from building up.

[bmorgil]

You are definitely getting the job done there 56'! You have it down to where you can perform any repair you need to do. Your welding skills get better everyday! You have to love it when you get the frame all cleaned back up. That's the foundation of the job.

[gmwillys]

I'm liking your rear bumper. Looks great!

[LarrBeard]

"... Do you think I should pull it off and do so..."

While you have it apart, I'd do it.

The Milodon thermostst is made of non-obtainium by elves in never-never land or far-far away:

"Not Available At This Time

This product cannot be ordered at this time. Future availability is unknown. We apologize for the inconvenience"

[bmorgil]

Hahaha! Man that thing is hard to find now. It is available from other sources under some other names but basically, it is a RobertShaw.

https://flowkoolerwaterpumps.com/products/robertshaw-330-160-degree-thermostat

https://www.amazon.com/EMP-Stewart-Components-300-Performance/dp/B002RLDMU0?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[56willys]

"... Do you think I should pull it off and do so..."

While you have it apart, I'd do it.

The Milodon thermostst is made of non-obtainium by elves in never-never land or far-far away:

"Not Available At This Time

This product cannot be ordered at this time. Future availability is unknown. We apologize for the inconvenience"


I think ill try drilling it for now. and see what it does. What do you think, maybe 1/8 inch?

[bmorgil]

Yes 1/8" is the size. The purpose of the hole was to help let the air past a closed thermostat, preventing steam pockets.

[56willys]

Tonight I seamsealed all the cracks/seams on the body. So let that dry and I can prime it soon. If you need proof that Flossys getting close to being done, today I accomplished multiple things without welding!! Worked on the rear bumber some more, I have a pintle hitch that I'll put on. I want to eliminate the drawbar for offroad purposes. And I think I'll add some shackle mounts as well. The rear shock mounts are installed.

I also disassembled the pedal assembly since they are very lose and sloppy. Does any one reproduce the bracket on the frame for the pedal shaft? I'm debating weather I should just spend the money and get new parts or try to put in washers etc. and make the old stuff work. One thing I will change though, the link rod for the clutch is worn halfway through on the ends and rusted in the middle, so it stretches when I push the pedal. I will change that, I don't need to lose a clutch linkage going down the road! Also are the pedals supposed to have rubber foot pads? Or just bare medal?

[56willys]

Yes 1/8" is the size. The purpose of the hole was to help let the air past a closed thermostat, preventing steam pockets.

Thank you! I'll get it pulled apart and drill it out.

[gmwillys]

The CJ5s had a rubber pad on the clutch and brake;

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/clutch-brake-pedal-rubber-pad-fits-55-67-cj-5/

The following diagram shows all the bushings for the clutch/brake linkage. It's pretty straight forward rebuild;

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/diagram/clutch-control-55-71-cj-5/

[bmorgil]

I would tighten that clutch linkage up 56'. It will give you headaches in adjustment if the components are worn. Replace or repair anything that will cause you lost motion.

Like gm said, the rubber pads showed up on the pedals later. They were bare steel in the old ones.

[56willys]

I would tighten that clutch linkage up 56'. It will give you headaches in adjustment if the components are worn. Replace or repair anything that will cause you lost motion.

Like gm said, the rubber pads showed up on the pedals later. They were bare steel in the old ones.

I hadn't planned on spending the money right now, but I reckon it will be worth it. It was always annoying when I stomped on the brakes and feel the pedal move side to side. And now is the time to get things dialed. If it's worn out now it will only get worse.

[gmwillys]

Two possibilities for a run away pedal:

1) if the brake pedal moves side to side or rotates, you can fix that the low buck way. If the tightening the bolt for the pedal doesn't solve the issue, then you can pull the pedal out and weld up the notch in the pedal stem to take up any slop where the through bolt goes through. This will keep your pedal from running away from your foot.

2) the cross shaft for the clutch and brake is flopping on the bushings on the frame or the transmission side. If this was the case, then both pedals would wonder around.

[bmorgil]

On mine everything was worn out. I pretty much had to replace everything in the linkage. The worn out clutch linkage explained some of the damage I found in the transmission from grinding gears!

[56willys]

Both pedals are sloppy, mostly the brake. The clutch can be tightened with the bolt and be good. But the frame bracket is worn, the cross shaft has ⅛" grooves worn in it, and is as straight as a back road through the mountains! The brake pedal looks like an egg, also the clutch link rod is worn halfway through on the ends and is rusted enough that it stretches with pressure on the pedal.

[gmwillys]

It would be a wise investment to replace the worn items. When in doubt, change it out. Money spent now may save you a lot later on, especially if your brakes or clutch do not respond while driving down the road.

[56willys]

I got a bunch of stuff ordered for the pedals today. I even got pedal return springs, I've never had that luxury so I'm anxious to see how it feels.

Also, in the mail today was a fresh license plate and title, so Flossy is officially legal! And now since I have plates, there's a car show the 19th, next Sunday. It's about 15 miles away, and maybe, just maybe if I can get things back together it would be awesome to go to the show. I also had the crazy idea to get a uhaul trailer and go to the Spring willys reunion, but I don't think that will happen yet.

And then, since we had some beautiful spring weather, I decided to get the body masked and spray some primer. I have never used a air spray gun. But a little bit of thinned down rustoleum rusty metal primer. And it actually looks pretty good. The pictures make it look worse since it's half dry half wet. And if you stand 50 feet away and squint, it's great! But no, aside from a couple runs it looks good in person!

I also finished the rear bumber and got it primed. I welded a 3/16" plate from the frame to the bumber. And prepared to mount a pintle/ball hitch. It's an 8 ton rating, so hopefully it will be strong enough for a Willys!:cool:

[56willys]

So I noticed while Flossy was on jack stands the left rear tire and a decent clunk when I shook it. So I popped of the dust cover, which has the usual Flossy rust! And pulled out the cotter pin and what do I find? The nut on the hub is completely lose! Not finger tight, legit lose. So I unthread it by hand and pull the hub off. So everything looks okay, it was all covered in pretty good looking grease. The axle and hub looks nice, no weird wear marks. The keyway is nice, and the axle is tight against the bearings. So I'm thinking the problem was just the looseness of the nut. So my question is, what should I torque it too? Also someone has had it apart because it has fresh wheel studs, so maybe they didn't tighten it enough.

And on a side note, a dumb question. But what do you guys torque lug nuts to?

[bmorgil]

The project is looking very good 56'! I believe you have brought Flossy back in a solid way. The paint looks just right. Taking them to a get together is what its all about. Even if its a small event, that Jeep will get you outside!

The axle shaft nut on tapered deign axle shafts, is a spot that always needs a look. They are Notorious for coming loose. When they do they usually shear the key in the shaft. A Minimum of 150 Ft. Lbs. of torque 56', you can take it to a Max of 175 Ft. Lbs.. The Wheel to Hub torque is 60 - 75 Ft. Lbs..

[51 CJ3]

I usually measure the diameter of the stud and google the lug nut torque if I don’t have it readily available in a manual.

[gmwillys]

The primer looks good. Again, for a first timer, you are doing a great job! Axle nuts are one of those items that need to be checked from time to time. Whenever I have a wheel off the ground during maintenance, I check the hubs for play, and then adjust if needed. I don't ever remeber having a dust cap rust on anything that was road worthy. Sure, if an axle was laying in the mud, but not when it was sitting on wheels. Even working around salt sheds, (We kept our trailers and etc. when not in use in the salt shed until fall) we still didn't have one rot out.

[56willys]

I don't ever remeber having a dust cap rust on anything that was road worthy. Sure, if an axle was laying in the mud, but not when it was sitting on wheels. Even working around salt sheds, (We kept our trailers and etc. when not in use in the salt shed until fall) we still didn't have one rot out.
The crazy thing is, my junkyard parts jeep which is COMPLETELY rusted literally everywhere. And had been sitting buried in the mud at the end of a driveway for probably 20 years. The dust caps were fine on it, I cleaned them up and got some paint and they are perfect, so I'll put them on flossy. It never ceases to amaze me how metal oxidation works, it never makes sense!

[56willys]

Thank you guys! When spraying the primer, I definitely made some mistakes and got a lot of runs in it. But like gm said for a first time, i can totally accept it, and if my first paint job was perfect, then I wouldn't be able to improve. Granted I did it at 10 o clock at night in the side yard with a couple lights just enough so I could see what I was doing. But, I got to get it done sometime!


Thanks for the info on the torque spec. I'll clean the hub up, smear on some fresh grease, and tighten it up. I don't need a wheel falling off!

Yesterday I got the axles and leaf springs painted, so now everything but the engine/tranny (which won't get painted yet) is painted on the chassis.


I removed all the u bolts, and ordered replacements, however the rears are too wide, so according to my usual fate the simplest job has more issues than the hardest job!

Another question; does the rear axle have a breather? I know the front does, but there's nothing on the back and KW and any other website/youtube video doesn't seem to show the rear end having a breather. But my diff cover has a hole in the top, but it looks like it was crudely chisled through, or knowing Flossy rusted through. I put a rubber plug in it just to keep junk out while I'm working.

[gmwillys]

I don't remember if the Dana 44 has the vent on the differential cover or on the top of the axle tube. If yours does not have a vent in the cover, then there should be a vent hose attached to the rear brake line junction on the top of the axle tube. The stud that the brass union is mounted to is hollow, and typically has a barb on top for a hose to attach. Sometimes there is just a brass cap on top of the union that keeps out dirt but not water. I did some further digging, and I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for in regard to Willys, but International Scout also runs a 44 axle.

https://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/dana-44-rear-axle-breather-bolt.138561/

[bmorgil]

The breather was in the cover on the model 41 and early Salisbury stuff. Later when the 44 appeared, the 44 has the breather as a hollow bolt holding the brake block down as in gm's link to the Scout axle.

[56willys]

Thanks guys, I'll have to get a bolt for the diff cover and run a hose. Then I'll probably just plug the hole in the cover. I checked my spare 44 and it doesn't have anything.

[56willys]

Flossy is back in black. I painted the floors today, just sprayed some majic tractor paint thinned 8 parts to 1. It actually looks pretty good, I tried to spray it on pretty thick to be more durable, but that kind of took away some looks.

I also got the front shock mounts done, I ended up cutting the sides so it was easier to bend. Then I rewelded the notches and welded them to the frame. So all is good, the pedals are supposed to be here today, then I can get that dialed. It won't be long know!!

[56willys]

So I've never changed axle fluids yet, I need to before I go on the road. Just wondering what I should use, I know I've heard good things about using corn head grease in the knuckles. But what should I run in the diffs, and how much do they take?

[gmwillys]

Your axles should hold around two quarts. Any GL5 85-90w oil will do for the axles, since they are not picky. The transmission and T-case need "safe for yellow metal".

The tub looks great in black. The pie cuts on the shock mounts worked out good too. Looking good 56.

[bmorgil]

It is looking great 56' Here is a link for lubes.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2371-The-correct-lube-for-a-Jeep-synchronized-transmission

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2442-Closed-Knuckle-and-Steering-Box-Lubrication

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2513-T90-Transmission-and-Dana-18-Transfer-case-Lube-Levels

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2419-The-Right-Motor-Oil

[56willys]

Thank you, I'll get some oil and get the axle lube changed. I like Bmorgils writeups, you have alot more knowledge about oil then I thought was possible, but lubrication will make or break an engine.

Another thing, (I've been randomly thinking about oil for some reason) but, in the engine I run Napa 30 wt. non detergent oil. I just thought, should I add some zinc additive?

[bmorgil]

Thanks 56', I enjoy your project! Zinc is required in your engine. I would run a conventional 30 weight or a 10W-30 engine oil that contains Zinc, rather than add it. Zinc has its own issues. Too much Zinc is not a good thing in an engine either.

I would not use a Non-Detergent oil. I would stick to an oil that has a Zinc additive, and meets the spec of at least SF. You don't want the high detergent of a diesel oil, but you do need some to keep the build up off the rings. A lot of guys use a combination oil like Rottela. Just remember an oil with high detergent doesn't perform well at high RPM's. It has a tendency to foam and this will ruin the bearings. Rotella combination oil has a formulation that helps with this. High RPM's is something you wont need to worry about anyway!

Here is a cheap oil that you can get at Wall Mart sometimes or Amazon. I haven't used it but I do know persons who have. It seems to meet all the requirements as well as low cost.

https://www.amazon.com/ACCEL-22500-SAE-10W-30-Motor/product-reviews/B0052KY6TE

[LarrBeard]

Good fix on the shock mounts. The isn't much a big saw, a hammer and a welder won't fix. The body looks great too !

[LarrBeard]

The oil must come from the same place that Milodon thermostats do:

Accel 22500 SAE 10W-30 SF Motor Oil - 1 Quart Bottle (Case of 12)
Brand: ACCEL
3.8 3.8 out of 5 stars 11 ratings | Search this page
Currently unavailable.
We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.

Doc Dana has previously recommended Valvoline VR-1 as a good oil for our little engines that want zinc in their diet. It's a bit pricey, but why tempt fate after all the work that goes into a restoration.

[56willys]

I guess I'll do an oil change and put in different oil. The non detergent was recommended when I first got the jeep. The oil was foaming and getting weird, I filled it up with non detergent and now it's been fine since. I don't know?

Also I got the new pedals yesterday. And I noticed the old setup had this long bolt running through the cross shaft with the large nut on the end. Now any video or any thing I've seen including my parts jeep, nothing has the bolt, they just have cotter pins holding the brake pedal in place and that's it. I can't have cotter pins and the bolt both. Any explanation for this? Maybe a Bubba field repair?

And I went to put the rear hubs back together and realized the only socket I have big enough is ¾ drive, so I don't have a torque wrench that will work. I'll check at the store tonight and see if I can find something either a socket or an adapter. But if i cant would it hurt anything to just give it a couple ugga duggas, and a grunt, and make it "tight" foot pounds?

Thank you guys again for the help, you're really eliminating a lot of head scratching for me!

[bmorgil]

Bubba engineering could definitely be in the works on the clutch shaft. It needs to be right or you will have trouble.

Many soldiers when they heard the infamous clicking or clunking of the axle nut coming loose, applied "ugga duggas". Use a 3/4 to 1/2" adapter if your torque wrench is 1/2". The "ugga dugga" will get you home unless you give it too much and strip the nut, something that is very hard to do. Always best to torque it if you can. 150 Ft Lbs is a lot. It is good to know you hit the number.

[56willys]

Bubba engineering could definitely be in the works on the clutch shaft. It needs to be right or you will have trouble.

Many soldiers when they heard the infamous clicking or clunking of the axle nut coming loose, applied "ugga duggas". Use a 3/4 to 1/2" adapter if your torque wrench is 1/2". The "ugga dugga" will get you home unless you give it too much and strip the nut, something that is very hard to do. Always best to torque it if you can. 150 Ft Lbs is a lot. It is good to know you hit the number.

I'll put things back how it's supposed to be, the thing that had me puzzled is the nut on the end is hollow inside to hold grease. And everything about it just looks like a factory setup, maybe Bubba had a machine shop and did a complex field fix! I'll put it back how it's supposed to be, the only problem is the washers that go between the pedal and cotter pin. I dint get them because I thought I had enough on the old setup but I don't. So hopefully I can find some locally, or if not I'll make some washers for know, I don't want to wait on shipping.

If it's okay I'll just tighten the hub up for know, and when I find an adapter I'll pop of the dust cover and give it a good torque. On some other vehicles in the family we torque lug nuts to 100 ft lbs. so my arm is calibrated to know that much torque pretty well, then I'll give it alittle more...

Another thing (I know, here comes that kid with all the questions) but I haven't gotten exhaust piping yet and the old exhaust has the original downpipe then a pipe running back to the rear axle. The problem is the long pipe is 2" diameter so there's a big gap around the downpipe. So my question is would it be okay to run with just the downpipe? I don't really understand exhaust flow technology but would just the downpipe have enough scavenging that I don't torch the exhaust valves?

[gmwillys]

Depending where the tail pipe connects to the down tube, I would just whack it off at the tail pipe and put on a cheap glass pack or cheap muffler. To answer your question, back pressure or lack thereof really doesn't affect the exhaust valves on these low compression engines. Visit your local Tractor Supply and get you an 8N Ford tractor muffler. They are cheap and sound good too. Save some of your hearing for when you get older, so run some sort of muffler. Farm tractors and the like from the 20s through the 40s didn't run mufflers at all, they would crimp a restriction on the end of the exhaust pipe to create a bit of back pressure. That was the only restriction since the exhaust dumped right off the manifold.

Horrible Freight should have your 1/2" to 3/4" adapter for pretty cheap.

[56willys]

Wednesday I got u bolts, lower shock plates and new shocks installed. And finished installing the rear bumber.

Then today I got the brake pedal in place, I need another washer then the clutch can get assembled. Then i greased up the rear hubs and got them reassembled, and i asked dad about an adapter to use a ½" torque wrench, and he walks to the toolbox and hands me one! (You learn something new everday , i honestly didnt know we had and adapter)

And then this crazy thing happened, the tub got placed on the frame for the last time!!! I got some thick heavy duty rubber from a friend and cut some bushings, got it squared up and a couple bolts in place. So now starts the million little things that need buttoned up. I think driving to the car show on Sunday may be possible.

[bmorgil]

Get it to that car show 56", if its running take her out. It doesn't have to be finished that's for sure.

It sounds like someone might have slipped in a clutch shaft from another vehicle in there.

[gmwillys]

I agree whole heartedly with Bmorgil. It doesn't have to be done to show off . If anything, it might inspire others to fix up their rig and get out there too. The Heep didn't look too out of place parked next to Bmorgil's immaculate PeeJ, LarrBeard's magnificent Ham's 48, TJ's hot rod Orange Crate, and Dom's awesome Scrambler.

[56willys]

Well, the last couple days have been crazy, from working on flossy through 12:30 Friday night, then working all day today. I finally got her put back together. I didn't get any pictures I was so busy working but I'll get some posted tomorrow. Friday I got fenders mounted, new pedals installed (oh my, they are so much better being tightened up!) And basically just fix this, assemble that, and get a as much stuff together as possible. I got some "00" grease, I put some in the steering box and ill do the steering knuckles. On the knuckles, is there a way to drain them without taking everything apart? Or should I just top them off?

Then today I continued assembling stuff, and finally after 4 months everything was assembled, torqued and good to go. I sit in it for the first time, pull the choke, pump the throttle, and lay my foot on the starter crank, crank, crank, nothing. And I realize this may be a long night. So I start diagnosing and find out there's no power to the coil, so I start checking things and can't find any noticeable problems and with daylight running low, I just ran a direct wire from the key to the coil. Crank, crank vroom! She's alive. Let it idle a little back off the choke, it smoothes out, okay lets see if these pedals work, back put of the garage. Ran around the yard a little, then got it in high range for the road. After 4 months of not driving my clutch leg was a little off, but it's like falling off a bicycle, you never forget. So with the sun just going behind the trees I drove it around the dirt roads by my house about 4-5 miles. Then my drivers license equipped brother hoped in and we tore out the road and got on the 2 lane for the first time in history, did a nice loop. Got it up to 45 mph but was mostly around 35. Did about 11 miles total, which is how far the car show is tomorrow. And believe me those shocks and body mounts were a worthy investment, oh my!! Bumbs I used to hit a 10 mph and rattle the jeep for the next 20 feet shaking thinking flossys gonna shatter like glass. Now you hit the same bumb at 30 and just glide like velvet. (Well maybe not that smooth, but compared to the old flossy it is like velvet) Although I just had the downpipe for exhaust so it kinda sounds like if Nissan made a tractor. Cruising it's not bad but as soon as you lay into it it's so loud, it just barks. All in all I am so fired up I finally got it running and it's so much nicer then before!! I'll see what I can get done tomorrow after church and decide if it's going to the show. If it wasn't for the wiring issues I would definitely go. Because I also lost turn signals and high beams and a taillight. But I think the problem is Insufficient grounds. Before I had no problem, but I think now that there ate rubber bushings on the body mounts it's not grounding. So I'll see what happens, and let you guys know how it turns out tomorrow.

But Flossy is back!!! And better then ever!

[bmorgil]

gm's "Heep" was a blast to have at the parade no question. It probably got more looks than any of the stuff there. It is the real deal. You can tell it will work, and has worked for a long time. There is something about a functioning true original that is very rare.

Now Flossy, wow she is stepin' out now! So glad you got her on the road man. I promise you in my miss spent youth, I would definitely have taken that toy to Church this morning! I would have put on my best and wheeled it in.

Check the coil for markings that indicate if it is a "Ballasted" coil or not. If it is, don't run 12v to the coil for to long or it will burn your points too quickly.

[gmwillys]

Way to go 56. We are proud of your progress and your drive. You'll have some Gremlins to handle with the electrical grounds, but that's not bad for how quick it all came together. I would top off the hubs unless you see anything that is not up to snuff, ( water contamination). If you choose to drain the hubs, shoot some brake or solvent to loosen up the old oil to help thin it enough to flush out.

[TJones]

Looks Great 56, you really knocked it out of the park on flossy!!!
Good Job, let us know how the car show goes and how many people walk by drooling!!!!

[56willys]

Well guys, I made it to the car show, and even better we made it back!! Thank you all for the encouragement, I wasn't sure if I should take it or not but between you folks and my brother said our one friend told him that he didn't think I could make it. That was all it took to ensure that no matter what happens I was going!

This morning I was able to fix the wiring issues pretty easily, I tightened up the steering box, and adjusted the brakes, it was pulling hard left last night on hard stops. The wiring turned out to be just stupid simple issues. Like the turn signals are powered only when the key is on. Well I removed that wire when I made the coil jumper. So reattach that and presto, I have turn signals. The coil I have no clue what was wrong, I added a ground strap from the engine to the body. And blew out the fuse block with the air comp. since it was still covered in welding dust. And after that the coil worked.

Fill up gas, load some tools and were ready!

So the trip is about 10 miles one way going down a 2 lane, 55mph road through farm country. We had Flossy piloted by my brother followed by my dad in the 49 ford, then my grandpa in his 76 corvette. Flossy cruised very comfortably at 50 mph. We had a few cars lined up behind us, but they can be patient. Keep in mind it was about 85 degrees with direct sun. And I also didn't get the temp guage wired. So we make it to the show, I hope out and the rad. and engine are just barely hot. Like my dad's truck runs at 180 degrees and Flossys radiator was cooler. So that was nice.

Man it got alot of attention, tons of people looking, talking. Multiple people were telling me about upholstery shops to fix my bare spring seats, but I put some floor mats on them to keep from ripping jeans and that works!

It was so much fun to have it out and get to talk to people, I had a great time. Showing off my hard work. I think I shocked a few people when I said it was just a frame 3 days ago!

Then comes the return trip, we pull out cruised around fifty, actually hit 60 on a downhill! But then things started smoking. So we pull over and it was just oil dripping on the exhaust, so we continued home.

So a rear main seal is on the list. There were some decent puddles on the floor after last night and it was leaking really bad going there and coming home today. Enough that the bellhousing had oil enough he clutch was shooting oil out the inspection cover. And by the time we got home, it lost a quart in 20 miles...

So my question is what all do I need to do to change rear main seals? Do I need to pull the tranny? I'm thinking I'll add some Lucas stop leak for now so I can continue testing/working bugs out. Then get a main seal replaced when I get a chance.

But aside from the oil mishap, it ran great, shifted smooth ran smooth. And actually tracked straight with minimal wandering. And we made it back!

Here's a picture with the three generations, grandpa's Vette, Flossy, and dad's truck.

I also added a couple pics of some of our kind at the show. A nice m725 and a clean pickup with a small block Chevy.

[56willys]

Flossy with a proud owner.

[gmwillys]

Fantastic outing! Well done '56. Flossy looked great out with Grampa's Corvette and your Dad's truck.

Rear main seals were originally rope: https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/rope-rear-main-oil-seal-set-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine/ They work well as long as you soak them in oil for a day or two before you install them. See the following video from Metal shaper to give you the run down on how it's done;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e39dNzVYsP8

There is a new style of neoprene seals to replace the rope style, but I've read a lot of hate mail to where people still have leaks. Bmorgil touched on the subject a while back, and he can chime in on his thoughts/experiences.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/usa-made-neoprene-rear-main-oil-seal-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine/

[bmorgil]

Looking good 56"! What a great time with three generations, favorite cars, at the show!

Nicely done 56', way to go man!

It is a big job to go after that oil leak if it is the rear main seal. Nothing you cant handle however. It could also just be the pan. Since the issue seemed to occur after a "High RPM" run down the hill, it could be the oil pan seal. Old motors with some ring bypass, combined with the oil splash from high RPM, can cause a lot of oil splash and pressure in the pan.

The rear main seal will always leak the most under pressure. If it is loosing that much oil, if it is coming from the rear main seal it will leak when it is idling with a steady drip. If you increase the oil pressure by holding the engine RPM up enough to achieve good oil pressure, the seal should start to pump out the oil. If the oil leak becomes significant while you hold the pressure up, but is not so bad when the engine is idling, it could definitely be the seal. If on the other hand there doesn't seem to be a big difference between idle and holding a high enough RPM to hold good pressure, I would suspect the oil pan gaskets and seals.

In our shop, we use air pressure to quickly identify leaks. You can seal up the engines openings and apply air pressure at about 3 to 5 psi. The leaks show up very quickly that way. Similarly, pressurizing the oil system will identify any pressure leaks. Lets see what you come up with on a preliminary look over.

Here is an excerpt from gizzard's build: https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2839-Gizzard-s-M38A1-Restoration/page2
The rope seal will eventually weep oil. Just the nature of the beast. I have seen them properly installed go past 50,000 but not much more. The rubber seal is going to be a less touchy installation and a better bet at a good seal the first try. It is important to check the dimension of the seal O.D. in the block. Not all blocks are the same. Not all seals have the same O.D..

The best tip I can give about leaks is to do it the way the factory does it. This technique is used by the top engine builders in the world. Seal up the obvious "holes" in the crankcase and apply about 3 to 5 psi of air to the crankcase. I have several "Jerry rigged" adapters set up with an air regulator. By applying a few PSI to the crankcase you will quickly find any leaks. You will hear the air seeping by the ring gaps and that should be it. The crankcase should hold a little pressure for a just a second or two. The air pressure should only be escaping past the ring gap and out through the valves. Blocking the exhaust and the carb and any other vents, should produce a fairly leak free crankcase, If you hear air hissing out from anywhere besides the ring path, its a leak. A little dish soap and water on a brush and watch for bubbles.

Here is info from Mark J's build: https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2883-PAIN-IN-THE-REAR-main-seal-that-is!/page2
Mark, A quick diagnosis is to see if it drips more when it is running as opposed to when it just sits. The oil of course blows all over as you drive so it can be very dificult to find the leak as you know! When there is oil pressure, the rear main seal is going to leak if it is going to leak. If it is as bad as you indicate (3 pints yikes) I would expect a steady drip at 20 to 30 psi of oil pressure. In neutral have someone hold the rpm up so you can build some pressure and peer underneath. If the main seal is pumping oil it will start to drip at the bell housing to block.

I think there is a very good chance it is leaking at the rear main. You really cant install the wick seal (rope) without removing the crank, unless you like main seal leaks. To do it right it has to be "packed" into the cap and block then the crank is installed. You can use a new style metal backed seal (be sure you have the right one). You can do this one with the motor in the vehicle. You carefully and with a lot of lube, being careful not to cut the seal, work it around the crank in the block then reinstall the cap. The side packing on the main cap and the interface between the cap and the block are also common leak points. Don't trim the side rubber too far and use black silicone sparingly where the cap and block and side seals all come together. The service manual will help you here on the seal points. And as Larry said do try to use a torque wrench on the oil pan bolts if you can. Over torquing ruins it all. Though you can pound the pan back into shape, it is now weak around the holes and will probably just dent when you try to re-tighten it.

Keep us posted on your progress Mark. This is a common attempted thing changing the rear main in the vehicle. I have accomplished it on a few different types of motors. The Willys does pose some problems at the main cap. The side seals and pan can be a little challenging on an engine stand. It gets a little more interesting in the vehicle. All the oldies start leaking when there is pressure! They just need a little TLC. No do not put in any "magic poop".

Here is more info: https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?3086-Neoprene-Rear-Main-Oil-Seal

[56willys]

Bmorgil, you hurt me when I read I need to pull the crank! My buddy just did a rear main seal on his truck and was able to just pull the pan and swap the seal out. I was really hoping that was the case with willys, but oh well.

I looked it over today, the oil pan is a little wet but most of the oil is from the bellhousing back. Sk probably main seal. The Bantam show is only a couple weeks away, but the problem is only one week I'm free to work on stuff. So I really don t want to pull the crank now. I got some rear main sealer today. I know it's not the right way, and I shouldn't just slap a bandage on it. But if it can slow the leak down enough to get me through a couple weeks, that would be a dream come true! Then after I have some fun at Bantam I'll probably just go ahead and pull the motor and get the seal done nicely. That will also give me a chance to check things over inside. And at the same time be able to fix any thing else that might be an issue inside.

The thing that gets me (I no things sometimes just happen) but last year it hardly ever leaked. When I fist got it there would be some decent puddles underneath but after some running it went away. And by the end of summer I'd drive it around for an hour, park it, come back the next day and there'd be nothing. Occasionally a small leak under the bellhousing but that's it. I put it away, start it and it leaks like mad. And Saturday night on the first drive, it did leak quite a bit on the floor, then left a nice puddle and got the underneath soaked on the way to the show Sunday. But then got enough to smoke on the way home.

The thing that sucks is if it wasn't for the leak I'd be dialed. And would be running the wheels off it right now!

[56willys]

Today I didn't have a lot of time and didn't feel like messing with oil stuff. So I tackled some more wiring issues, got the fog lights wired up. I wanted yellow tint, but everywhere I looked I could only find clear. So I got some clear sealed beam bulbs and found vinyl wrap on Amazon. And wrapped the light with the transparent tint. It actually turned out really nice. I can't wait to hit the road and see how well they light. And I got a top fitted. I found it at carlislee, brand new best top for 25 bucks. You can't beat that!

Thank you guys for the help, we'll get that oil leak figured out!

[gmwillys]

Are you 100% sure that it is engine oil? After I do a service on the Heep, the transmission leaks out the front seal until it seeks the level it likes. It leaks at the bell housing. Just a thought.

[bmorgil]

Good thought gm, make sure 56'. Is it loosing oil on the dipstick?

You don't have to "pull" the crank. It will make it easier if you loosen the main caps. I would definitely give a try, installing a two piece seal can be done without pulling the engine. If you google "replace willys jeep rear main seal without removing engine", you will get a plethora of ideas. Basically you are going to remove the rear main cap and work a new seal up and around the crank. I have successfully done this a few times in my youth. Sometimes you just cant get it to seal but its worth a try if you don't want to pull the motor.

[gmwillys]

There is typical more than one way to do things besides right or wrong. I would sure try to loosen the main caps to sneak the new seal out. That will save you some time.

[bmorgil]

It could be a few spots leaking 56'. Because it occurred after a hard run, the pan seal especially at the rear, is very suspect. If you decide to go in there, once you pull the pan you are very close to attempting the main seals.

[56willys]

Thanks gents, so I can do a rubber seal without pulling the crank? But not a rope seal. Where should I get the seal from? I don't want to do this twice if I don't have to, so I want to make sure I get the best seal I can get.

It could be leaking from the trans. however the oil didn't feel like 90 wt. It felt thinner, which could be because it was hot. I'll try to get it cleaned good, then run it a bit, so i can spot where the oil is coming from.

The back 2 inches of the oil pan is a little wet, but other then that the pan seems okay.

Also, being from 56 would it even have a rope seal? I know my 64ish hurricane I pulled apart had a rubber seal.

The dipstick lost maybe a little under a ¼ inch level from where it was before the 20 miles. I'll check trans level and see if it went down.

[56willys]

Another thing, (I don't mean to keep bombarding the site with questions) but the transmission was making noise. It's always been there but I want tk know if it's normal or not. Going slow (say under 20 mph) it's fine. But upon reaching decent speed, when you let off the throttle on deceleration. There's kind of a grinding sound. Wel maybe not so much grinding, it's really a hard noise to describe. It's a metallic, sort of high pitched grinding/clunking noise. It lasts maybe several seconds, as soon as you let off the throttle and start coasting. Then after a few seconds it goes away. Lay into throttle, let off, it does it then quiets down.

For example at the top of a downhill grade, I let off throttle and it makes the noise for a few seconds, then continues engine breaking down the hill quietly.

Sorry for the horrible description, but it's really hard to describe. I don't know if it's just the torque load shifting from one side of the gear to the other. It definitely sounds like it's transmission, the thing is it shifts like a brand new trans and other then this it's actually quiet cruising (quiet for straight cut gears that is) Any thoughts would be awesome! The thing is I've never been around or rode in any other willys, especially not one that's been rebuilt so I don't know how many things are normal.

[gmwillys]

Usually if you have noise when deceleration, that often tells you that you have excessive backlash on the ring and pinion on the differentials. Dr. Dana can elaborate more on that subject. It isn't unusual for the transmission/transfer case or differentials to whine during deceleration. Now grinding or clunking will tell you that you have more than just backlash noise. I would drop the oil and look to see what is in the oil. Is there any metal paste/or glitter in the oil? Is there any gear chunks or pieces of metal in the oil? Just remember, the transmission and transfer case share oil, so don't jump to conclusions if you find glitter in the oil if you pull the oil out of the transfer case first.

[Catlewis]

Couple thoughts on your current issues,,,,,, regarding the oil leak, how old is the oil (when was it last changed), and what weight oil do you have in the crank case? Manufacturing tolerances on these old engines require thicker lubricants than modern vehicles. I'm using Castrol 20-50 in mine right now. It also leaks a little at the rear main. Plan is to continue driving and monitor oil level.
The trans noises you mentioned,,,,,,, before digging into the trans, first make certain your mounts are good + carefully inspect all mechanical linkages that pass through the floor or firewall to verify none are missing grommets or contacting the body (resting or under acceleration or deceleration). Sometimes the natural torque / twisting of the engine and or trans under acceleration or deceleration results in linkage contacting the body and resonating thru the sheet metal producing all kinds of "OMG" noises.

[bmorgil]

Wow hard to diagnose noise when you have to describe it sometimes. I think Cat has you on a good start. Make sue it isn't something vibrating when you let off the throttle. Resonance is hard to find. Also take a look at the heat riser under the carb. Make sure it isn't loose and rattling. gm is eluding to gear whine. As he is saying, when things wear you can start to loose position on the gear pattern in the axle. Axles have some distinct noise characteristics. Whine is one of them. a high frequency whine that is constant and increases with speed is usually pinion related. Deeper growling that has a rhythm that goes with wheel speed is usually the carrier bearings or Ring Gear related.

[56willys]

Couple thoughts on your current issues,,,,,, regarding the oil leak, how old is the oil (when was it last changed), and what weight oil do you have in the crank case? Manufacturing tolerances on these old engines require thicker lubricants than modern vehicles. I'm using Castrol 20-50 in mine right now. It also leaks a little at the rear main. Plan is to continue driving and monitor oil level.
The trans noises you mentioned,,,,,,, before digging into the trans, first make certain your mounts are good + carefully inspect all mechanical linkages that pass through the floor or firewall to verify none are missing grommets or contacting the body (resting or under acceleration or deceleration). Sometimes the natural torque / twisting of the engine and or trans under acceleration or deceleration results in linkage contacting the body and resonating thru the sheet metal producing all kinds of "OMG" noises.

Im running just straight 30 weight oil in the engine. If my understanding is correct, 20-50 will be thicker when hot? As for the linkages making noise, All i can say is there is a lot of moving stuff and not much rubber/grommets etc.

[56willys]

Wow hard to diagnose noise when you have to describe it sometimes. I think Cat has you on a good start. Make sue it isn't something vibrating when you let off the throttle. Resonance is hard to find. Also take a look at the heat riser under the carb. Make sure it isn't loose and rattling. gm is eluding to gear whine. As he is saying, when things wear you can start to loose position on the gear pattern in the axle. Axles have some distinct noise characteristics. Whine is one of them. a high frequency whine that is constant and increases with speed is usually pinion related. Deeper growling that has a rhythm that goes with wheel speed is usually the carrier bearings or Ring Gear related.

I hadnt really thought of it being rear axle noise. But it could be, it sounds like its coming from the tranny but with a loud exhaust, top down, and every single noise resonating under the tub it is hard to pinpoint exactly where noises are coming from.
I just got th rear diff drained and im starting to put fresh oil in it. Ive never changed axle fluids yet, so maybe some fresh lube will help it.

Ill try to get it out on the road and get a video of it running so you guys can hear what the sound is. I have no idea how to explain it better.

[56willys]

Im planning on ordering a rear main seal pretty soon, Then if i dont get it installed before Bantam ill do it right after. Can i do a rope seal with the crank in place? Anything ive seen says you have to pack the seal in, looks like it might be a pain to pack it in with the crank inplace. So ill probably get rubber. Any thoughts on where to get the seal from? KW has a USA made one https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/usa-made-neoprene-rear-main-oil-seal-fits-41-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine/ Or is there a better brand out there to get?

As always thank you guys!!!

[bmorgil]

Rope seals are installed by packing them in to the block. The crank needs to be out. I have the KW seal in mine.

[Catlewis]

You've done a ton of work to this Jeep, and I didn't take the time to look back thru your post to see if you ever had the rear drums pulled, however these rears have typical tapered conical wheel bearings similar to what's commonly found on a front spindle. These require manual packing as they're not lubricated by the rear diff oil. If you haven't had those apart and re-packed, that could be some of your noise??? Body isolators are also marginal. Replaced all of mine and they're nothing more than a strip of 1/4" rubber.

[bmorgil]

I agree Cat, he has a ton of work on this baby!

I see he fabricated some body mounts. On the rear wheel bearings, they are greased with a zerk in the axle tube. You apply grease until it purges from a tiny hole on the top of the axle tube right above the bearings.

https://cj3a.info/tech/vent.jpg

[Catlewis]

Yep, and thanks for reminding me! I forgot all about those zerks........ (which I actually like!) Point of the advice was to inform (if he didn't already know) they're not lubricated by diff oil as commonly found on most conventional rear designs.

[56willys]

Yes, I made body mounts out of some heavy ¼ inch rubber. I did grease the rear bearings through the zerk fitting. I did when I first got the jeep and again last week. Although I didn't know about the hole in the top. I was even wondering how I would know when it's full. Having the zerk fitting is super slick, makes me wish the front hubs had them also.

[56willys]

Work has been kind of slow on flossy, between being bummed out about the oil leak and being busy working. I haven't got a lot of time in the harage. However I did get a cb radio installed, with a 4 foot firestick on a spring mount. I think someday it would be cool to get a full 102" whip, but what I have will work for know. I also installed some seatbelts, any offroad park around requires them and I figured it wouldn't be a bad idea anyways. I changed front differential oil and filled the knuckles, now the u joints don't click anymore! Then I put some rear main sealer in it and drove for a pretty good distance, it w as still dripping from the bellhousing, but it's not as bad as last week. So I think it will make it through Bantam I'll just pack some extra oil.

I still can't get over how much better it rides now. It actually has some get-up-and-go I drove around some backwoods and was planning on staying around 30mph but without any throttle input, next thing I know I look down and were going 40, it actually moves pretty good considering. After the drive I took a infrared thermometer tk it and the upper water neck was 160 degrees and the coolant at the top off the rad was 130 degrees. I could still hold onto the radiator.

[gmwillys]

Work and life has a tendency to steal time away from projects. It happens. Yesterday was the first day that the Heep has seen daylight in a long time, awaiting the starter and generator to come back, etc. etc. etc.

New shock mounts and shocks definitely help out in the ride quality for sure. A Willys will run better the more it is run. When you get the oil bleeding repaired, you'll be driving Flossy everywhere!

[bmorgil]

Drive it and enjoy it 56'! When you are ready go after that seal. Until then keep some oil handy and the RPM's low.

[gmwillys]

For the time being, I would recommend that you would make a diaper of Pig Mat or related material to catch any oil that may ooze out when showing. As long as you keep an eye closely to your oil levels, all will be great!

https://www.amazon.com/New-Pig-Universal-Absorbent-Shop/dp/B004I665XS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=23W1D5WI8ENNO&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.H_v8GcYAjAoriVAvuj9l9SEAQcXJI8dqB mNyXAnQVZMT0ClIEWh3QRoBm2pObT-QURTszFDZwe9UzP5sj54Pqboo253BoF-1DSQ3DOdiL_NEoCE2qeSO0A1peb-WkpWcTa93jZgHeNsocblQS8PyKx_zQBj3uHQg_wfQZFcBPjSuq oeUkYd4V-JMHipe1fyoI9k-eF5w7Nd9MXhqsmxIYv18hfxZpyvqnURDRmpdxaA.z1CIU2JRmk dbNJrMh-n_3DEgECckySyxpYBnZb1yw1k&dib_tag=se&keywords=pig+mat&qid=1717042559&sprefix=pig+%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-3

[56willys]

Sorry I went awoll on you folks, I was away all of last week doing high-performance car stuff. So ive just been tinkering, doing little fine-tune stuff. Haven't really completed anything major. I got all the electrical issues sorted except the horn doesnt work. I finally got some gauges hooked up, tach, volt, oil, and temperature. So know i can keep an eye on how the engine likes me, It does make oil pressure!! Between 25-30 psi at idle, occasionally it drops to 22 if its idling rough when its cold. but as soon as i just barely tap the throttle it spikes to 45 psi immediately. I got a reducer to hook up the original 6 volt fuel and temp gauges but the amazon river special was defective, and with no time left to wait on the postal service i just bought a regular temp gauge. To eliminate the factory electrical sending unit. But the threads in the head are too small for the new pickup, so i have about 5 different fittings stacked to get the right threads. I will perfect it later, but it will get me a gauge working for know.

So the Bantam Jeep Festival is this weekend, we're leaving tomorrow morning and camping there the entire weekend. My buddy came tonight and loaded Flossy on his trailer to haul down. I dont think its quite ready for an hour drive, then offroading and another hour drive home. Its safer to just trailer it, then I dont have to worry about breaking as much stuff. But that turned into an ordeal, My friend came and i still had a bunch of stuff to finish, so he got to work on the famous Flossy! Finally got everything buttoned up, pull it on the trailer and start strapping it. The good news is there was no drops of oil under the Jeep after driving. Maybe the Lucas majic poop worked. But i noticed there was some brake fluid dripping on the rear axle, coming from the bleeders/wheel cyl. fittings. Thats not too big of an issue ill just tighten things up alitte, (famous last words) The fittings and the first bleeder were a little loose, so i gave them a good snug, and the last bleeder i go to give it one more little tighten and the stupid thing broke off!!:mad: and i didnt even give it that much torque just a little bit. Alright, lets try a bolt extracter to get out the chunk of thread left in the cylinder. Fist couple attempts are to no avail, try it again and the bolt extracter breaks, (well this sucks!) So with really nothing left to try and the sun getting low and brake fluid leaking everwhere, lets take an idea out of Bubba's playbook for feild repairs on junk vehicles and i welded the hole shut. I figured i wont let one wheel cylinder ruin a weekend of fun that ive been working all winter for, i can order a new cylinder later. And then i ran out of welding wire! But luckily i got enough of a puddle on it that i think it will hold.

So yep, thats my story, Flossy's on its way there and we will be pulling out in the morning, so i probably wont be able to reply for a few days. But ill get you all informed after the show, and tell you the list of things that break this weekend!!:cool:

[gmwillys]

Well done '56. The weld on the bleeder will get you through, and is a better idea than smashing the line flat going across the axle...I would have never taken a hammer or vise grips to a brake line. I agree on trailering Flossy to Bantam. We'll be loading up the Heep this afternoon for our annual Veterans benefit ride on the mountain this weekend.

Have fun this weekend and take plenty of photos.

[LarrBeard]

"catch any oil that may ooze out when showing."

BMorgil may remember this. "Way baack in 2019" when the JeepFest restarted the Arena Show, when you brought a vehicle onto that shiny floor in the Exhibition Hall, one of the nice ladies came around and asked how many drip pans you needed. It wasn't do you need a drip pan - it was just how many. Old Jeeps are like old coots - we all dribble a little bit.....

[bmorgil]

I do remember the floor of the Arena! I think I ended up laying on it.

[AJ-MJ]

It sounds like exciting times for you guys this weekend... HAVE FUN and enjoy your "labor of luv". My hunt club is have a fund raiser so I'll be working, but it will be a good time. I was always told Jeep don't leak they just mark their territory.

[56willys]

Well, it's about time I update you all. So I installed my "rebuilt carburetor " and the old Carter YF was extremely discontent with anything I wanted it to do. (This is the YF I attempted to rebuild awhile ago, I'm just getting around to trying it out) So at first it would only run with the choke one, finally got the choke opened and it won't idle below 1000 rpm. I kept fiddling with things and got it to somewhat idle at around 750. But it's still not enthusiastic. A little push of the accelerator and it isn't too horrible, but it's not great. Just kind of breaks up and pops. I backed it out of the garage about ten feet then back in and that's all, it doesn't run well enough for more.

I have a feeling it's probably float and or metering rod adjustment. The problem is that's where my knowledge hits a dead end. I tried playing with metering rod/float adjustments and got it alittle better. But I don't really know how to adjust things, and what all to try. So any explanation of things would be much appreciated.

My uncle was coming home for a visit and I wanted him to drive Flossy. So I put the old carb back on for know. Which I'll explain the problems with the original carb. It idles pretty well, throttle response is excellent, but when you hold it at constant rpm it sputters/breaks up. Cruising down the road is great, it's just in neutral and low gears. Maybe I can tune that out and keep the old carb? But it would be cool to figure old my rebuilt one.

I also found a big vacuum leak in the pcv line between the side cover and the fitting in the head below the carb.

I am complete moron when it comes to carbs/tuning so any suggestions help, thanks.

[gmwillys]

'56, Not all hope is lost, don't you worry!

A quick and dirty way to magically fix a carburetor is to run the engine at high idle while standing close to the carb. Cup your hand over the throat of the carb until it nearly snuffs out, then repeat a couple of times. This will create a huge amount of vacuum within the carb and can help to blow out any restrictions that may have been missed on your rebuilt carb. The carb you are running may be a timing issue more than a fuel issue from what I'm hearing. Bmorgil is the master tuner, so he will have some good ideas to try. Carb tuning is a science and an art all wrapped up in one.

[bmorgil]

56', when they wont idle unless the choke is on it is a sure sign the idle circuit in the carburetor is blocked. Try gm's trick and see if it clears out.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2862-not-running-right&highlight=idle

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2763-Fuel-leak-down-m38a1&highlight=idle

The metering rod controls the mid range so to speak. The intermediate circuit. The idle needs to be corrected first. The throttle plate needs to be almost fully closed so the transition slot can function correctly. If the idle mixture screw does nothing, something has to be done to correct that first. The engine should idle with just one or two turns of the idle speed screw. Then the idle mixture screw should have an effect as you turn it in and out. Put the metering rod back where it was. It needs to start lifting when the throttle plate clears the transition slot in the carb throat. See if you can get the idle right and then we can go from there.

Now the old carb. It sounds like it needs fuel in the beginning of the cruise circuit. The transition and intermediate fuel is coming into play here. Give it a little more idle mixture. Turn the mixture screw one turn out and try it. It sounds like when vacuum is high during very low load and above idle RPM it is going lean. If it doesn't respond to this or it helps just a little, adjust the metering rod so it lifts a little higher when the carb throttle blade is in the area where it seems to be miss firing. Remember a miss fire as it relates to fuel mixture is almost always a lean condition. Rich smokes and smells, lean pops and miss fires.

[Catlewis]

Had mine rebuilt. It wasn't cheap however it idles like a champ!

117371173811739

[AJ-MJ]

I Recently sent my carburetor off to Rick at "Old Jeep Carbs LLC" based on recommendations from experienced members. Today, Rick & I had a long conversation reviewing the estimate to rebuild my carb. He mic'ed the throttle bore and shaft. Both of these dimensions were out of tolerance. Per Rick that will cause a vacuum leak. He has a great website to search/educate and I would suggest calling him and discuss your issue and potential having him rebuild your carburetor. Rick also suggested when I get my carb back and start the engine, to time the engine without a timing light by using a vacuum gauge. Rick said he has a video of how to do it. I have not watched the video yet so I cannot comment on it. AND NO IT ISN"T CHEAP! But I think the cost to professionally rebuild your carburetor is great value!

[bmorgil]

If you aren't comfortable rebuilding carburetors, the price is right and the guy has good recommendations it is definitely money well spent.

I would stick to his carburetor work and not the timing recommendation. There is only one correct way to time an engine, with a vacuum gauge is not it. I have heard so many different ways to screw up the timing I could write a book! Proper timing is established based on a lot of things. An engine dynamometer, even in the old days, was one of them. Once the Best timing numbers are established by the engine manufacturer or engine builder, you use the procedure that works best for you to set it to that number. No one knows where it will end up any other way. On the 134 it is easily done with an Ohm Meter or a light bulb.

When your hot rodding you can eek a little performance out of advancing the timing a small amount and using good fuel. Again this experiment is best done on a dynamometer. You will never feel the difference on the 60 HP 134.

[56willys]

First off, thank you all for the insights, everything is a huge help!

So with the old carb still on I gave the mixture screw a half a turn rich. And I fixed the vacuum leak, and oh my it liked that. I didn't go crazy driving, just a short leisurely trip but there was no breaking up, it ran nice and smooth and pulled up hills much better then before. I'm liking it. I want to do a little more testing, I think I have the mixture a little too rich now, so I'll fine tune that, but I would say it's dialed.

So know it's on to the rebuilt carb. One of theses days I'll put it back on and try gms trick to get the passageways cleared out. I thought for sure I got it cleaned well enough, but things happen. As for getting it done professionally that would be really nice, and I'd have a perfect carb, but I really enjoy learning things. And yeah I might spend tons of time failing but eventually I'll get the hang of it. And if I rebuild it, when something goes wrong I can fix it. Plus the bank account really likes to not spend extra money. So I'll keep tinkering away until I get it figure out.

I also got the shims from Herm for the overdrive so I started getting it put back together. Fingers crossed it works! Which in the midst of that, dummy me dropped a washer in the tcase, and I couldn't get it fished out with a magnet so I had to drop the t case oil pan. Which the good news is the insides literally look brand new. But there is a tiny bit of silver metal shavings in the oil. I don't know if it's from the overdrive when I screwd up before, or just from transmission grinding. There has been a couple gear clashes with rookies like me driving.

[gmwillys]

'56, the best way to learn is to do it wrong before you do it right.

Bmorgil is right on the money as usual. Engine dynos are amazing tools that very few people have access to. The TV shows like Engine Masters do not show all the time spent tuning the engines before really twisting the tail to see how many ponies are actively running. I typically do not use a timing light or vacuum gage to set timing unless it is an expensive, close tolerance race engine. I feel that I have a pretty good ear for low horse, run of the mill-mills.

[56willys]

I had set timing with vacuum a while ago, since flossy doesn't have any timing marks/pointer. But I still ear tuned a little, turn it this way see what it does, turn the other and see what happens. I know my friends over in the performance world don't like vacuum timing, but with a 134 I could care less about power. I have to say though now with the vacuum leak fixed it runs much much better. There is no more breakup it just holds steady rpm. So I guess the old carb as been good all along, but I still want to figure out the rebuilt one.

So I reinstalled the overdrive with the shims and correct synchro. Which the new trans tunnel didn't have enough clearance so I had to jack up the body alittle but it worked. I got it all installed, backed out the garage and went through the yard. I made it about ten feet and it popped out of gear. Same as it was before.

So talking with Herm, he said that the stick out is still not enough and I could put more shims in it, but he said to try it how it is so that's what I did. He also said that the shims I have should be plenty and that there's probably an issue with the trans output shaft. Which maybe is also the grinding noise on deceleration I mentioned a while back. So how can I tell if there is an issue? What should I look for?

So my plan is, I won't be doing any long trips yet and can get by without overdrive so I'll put the stock gear back in (again). And run it through the summer. Possibly look into having Herm rebuild the od. Then come winter pull the drivetrain, do the rear main seal in the engine, fix the issue with the trans output (if there is a problem) and do a good cleaning/re sealing of everything and be good to go. But I'll see what you guys think and try to figure something out.

[gmwillys]

You have a solid plan. Enjoy Flossy for the summer, then tackle the winter projects when it's not so nice to ride.

Tuning is a fine art mixed with a little luck and determination. No two engine are exactly alike, and you have to find the perfect combination to get everything just right. We like your spirit of not accepting defeat on the other carburetor, so stick with it. You'll get er dialed in!

[bmorgil]

The vacuum leak was a great find for you 56'. That will cause a lean condition every time.

It is a dangerous thing to set timing with any method other than something that is giving you a true mechanical reference to where you are actually timing the engine. The ignition of the air fuel mixture is a narrow window. The total timing at RPM, idle timing, load timing and no load timing are all in the equation. ALL spark fired engines have a mechanical reference to set the correct ignition timing to. On the 134's the flywheels are marked at the sight hole in the bell housing on the flywheel. The timing is set just like it was on a motorcycle with points. You put a 6 or 12 volt light bulb across the points. When the bulb lights the points are open. The mark on the flywheel will immediately tell you exactly where the timing is. It doesn't get any easier than that. That is always where you should start. If you wish to experiment, you can vary it around slightly from there, preferably with something other than "the seat of your pants", though I certainly have had to do this in a pinch. If you feel you have a good timing set by the seat of your pants, you need to check it against the mechanical indicators and see just where you are. Changing the timing more than 10 degrees from factory settings indicates you have ventured to far, you can bet you are doing no good. I could go on for a while about what actually dictates the right ignition timing curve. It is a science in itself. I am constantly learning more about it as advanced combustion chamber designs and camshafts, change the amount of timing required. We are now seeing timing requirements retarding as combustion efficiency goes up in the modern engines. It is very important to set the timing to, at or near the recommended settings on every engine you have. Everything from the plugs to the bearings will last longer.

Timing is a changing target. It needs to be lowest under load and highest when it is not under load. It also needs to have enough "lead" to make a good clean idle. The very best thing to do is align the engines timing marks and set the timing to the engine manufacturers specification unless you have changed the way the engine is built. On the engine dynamometers, I and many others who have tuned engines on a dyno will tell you, very often the timing doesn't need to move far from factory settings. One of the things you learn from the dyno early on is more isn't always better. Some engines (like the 134) for various reasons will take a lot of timing without detonation. It doesn't mean because they can take more timing they need more timing. Some will not. Many factors contribute to this. In any event what is found is that the engines will respond with more power to a point and then fall off or produce no more power after timing is advanced further. After that some engines will just flatten out on the power curve with no appreciable gains. More ignition timing than required is much worse than less. More than required is very hard on engines, and very inefficient. Do yourselves a favor guy's, do it by the book. There is really nothing a vacuum gauge can tell you about the correct timing. The highest vacuum reading is not what you are looking for. Advancing the timing on an unloaded engine will always result in higher vacuum numbers... to a point, then you will melt a piston or break one and maybe a few rings.

https://www.mikesxs.net/randakks-honda-gl1000-static-timing-light.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw7ZO0BhDYARIsAFttkCh7GDPmvNsPaS-p9d-6zvJE8j48zmw9IeekupsEC3UWcCxkqEMWlxAaAvdkEALw_wcB

[56willys]

Great info there Bm, I hadn't known about the timing marks on the flywheel. I saw there was no pointer on the front cover and no marks on the crank. So I'll check into the flywheel markings. The thing that concerns me is the fuel, we had a talk about this awhile back and LarrBeard posted about fuel being 68 octane in ww2. That will burn a lot faster then today's 87, so is factory timing really optimal if those numbers are for faster burning fuel?

Saturday was a car/airplane show at the local airport. So we drove Flossy out, and even drove through a roundabout and a big 4 lane road. But it handled those scary modern roads like a champ, there were plenty of people passing us going willys speed when people are in a hurry. With the vacuum leak eliminated its running like a top! And Flossy sure got a lot of attention, even with stiff competition from the airplanes. The traffic director almost didn't let us in the gate, I guess he didn't think Flossy was "car show material" but that's okay. Tons of people loved seeing it and it may not look good but it literally starts faster than 90% percent of others cars there, haha! Here's a few pics of the event.

[bmorgil]

Flossy fits right in, that's a nice little show!

Average octanes were in the 70's to 80's in the late 40's and early 50's. Not extremely far from the 87 of today's regular. The octane effects the fuels ability to resist detonation. It is slower to explode (or burn, a relative term) as the octane increases which resists detonation. In the low compression 134 detonation really isn't a factor. The best time to ignite the air fuel mixture is based on many things other than octane, octane being a very small part of the best timing for combustion. As you increase the engines pressure at ignition you need to increase the octane to prevent detonation. Advancing the timing because you have the octane to do so without detonation, isn't necessarily going to make more power. Now if you could not achieve the best cylinder pressure because you didn't have enough timing, because it was detonating, more octane would allow more timing and more power. In the case of the 134 there is plenty of room for as much timing as you can give it. It doesn't need it however as the low compression keeps it far from detonation at the optimum timing numbers, with a broad range of octane. That is why you can crank in a bunch of advance and get great idle vacuum with a bunch of timing and it wont detonate under load. You will be losing power and it will be harder on components however, though it may sound great at idle! Engines love a lot of timing at idle. The fuel air mixture is dirty and vacuum is medium to low. More timing helps light it. The distributor has a range of about 20 to 25 degrees of mechanical advance built in. The most important timing in the engine is the timing at full load at around 3000 RPM, not idle. So if you add the total advance of the distributor and the initial timing lead you get the total advance at max RPM. Around 25 to 30 deg in the 134. Adding idle timing adds total timing. Igniting the fuel too early for the engines mechanical design under load (think total timing) will waste a lot of its energy and can cause damage.

[gmwillys]

Two of my favorite things to be around, vintage Jeeps and vintage aircraft. Great photos '56!

[LarrBeard]

Now you just need to find a steam locomotive and you have the trifecta...

[gmwillys]

I can agree with that Senior Chief on that. Steam locomotives or steam traction engines, both are awesome to watch work.

[LarrBeard]

I want to get a picture of the '48 alongside NKP 765, but they are very conscious of photographs and copyright matters ...

[bmorgil]

I love the story you have on that one Larry, isn't it a legendary locomotive? Is that the one that used to set speed records between Ohio and Indiana?

[56willys]

I want to get a picture of the '48 alongside NKP 765, but they are very conscious of photographs and copyright matters ...

A Willys and a Berkshire, that would be an incredible photo. I remember seeing a promotional film from back in the day saying that a willys could pull a boxcar. Not with ease and speed of a 2-8-4 but it could pull it.

One of the many things on the bucket list is some type of steam engine. (Steam tractor, garden train, steam car etc.) They are just simply fascinating, they are so complex, I wonder how people figured them out 100 years prior to gas engines. When you look back now and a gas engine is far simpler.
But it's hard to beat the raw power of expanding super heated steam, all it takes is a little fire, a little water, and a whole lot of know-how!

[gmwillys]

The complexity of the engineering and the casting of the iron for these behemoths is unbelievable considering that they used pencil and paper and slide rules to figure everything out.

[bmorgil]

......they used pencil and paper and slide rules to figure everything out.

I can still remember having to learn how to use the slide rule way back in time. I remember thinking to myself... did I get that right or, am I guessing? Life before the pocket calculator and the Dial Indicated calipers!

[LarrBeard]

No - but I believe that was a T1

S0mewhere I have a story about a 100 MPH run into Ft. Wayne on a T1.

[gmwillys]

A 100mph run behind a steam locomotive would be something to remember. Amtrak just wouldn't have the same appeal to me.

[56willys]

Alright this thread is begging to be updated, so here we go...

Summer got busy, and with Flossy not breaking anything major im running out of things to fix. Its kind of nice to walk in the garage and think alright what can i work on, well i cant find anything so lets drive flossy around instead!! So that has led to being able to work a little on some other projects that were waiting.

A couple weeks ago we drove Flossy and my Dads truck about 15 miles one way to a small town festival, with a car show and a parade (Flossys inaugural parade) so that was fun. And with Dad slipping the clutch in the truck trying to stay slow, i just put Flossys Dana 18 into low, let the clutch out and idled right through. Willys jeeps are parade machines!!

Last sunday my brother and I drove Flossy down to a local state park for a car show. Which was abput 20-25 miles one way. Officialy the farthest the little hurricane has been from home and toolboxes without a trailer. But we made it there and back without any issues! Oil pressure at a hot idle is about 10 but cruising it stays around 25-40. Coolant never went above 160 degrees. And a little calculations that thing got 20 miles per gallon!!! So that show was a huge success, over 200 cars, and perfect weather.

So Flossy is doing great, still leaks oil like crazy, but ive got it slowed down. I put an exhaust on it which has made it drive so much better, and my ears no longer ring after 10 minutes of driving! I did an alighnment and added some toe in, which has helped bumb steer tremendously. Added some marker lights on the sides. I figured the lights already arent great and especially with the winch visibility at night may not be the best, better to be safe. And i installed some reverse lights. Other then that ive just been fine tuning, and driving it. I'll get some video of the exhaust, and post some pictures and some more things ive done later.

[gmwillys]

Good to hear that you have been enjoying the drive. Oil is "cheap", so it can wait for winter for the attention you can give it. We are always up for photos of your adventures.

[bmorgil]

I agree on the "made for parade". The Toledo Jeep Fest is a very slow go parade. Lot of stopping and starting. Putting it in Low 1st is the way to go for sure. They just walk along. It sounds like you are having fun with it now 56'!

[56willys]

I agree on the "made for parade". The Toledo Jeep Fest is a very slow go parade. Lot of stopping and starting. Putting it in Low 1st is the way to go for sure. They just walk along. It sounds like you are having fun with it now 56'!

Haha, I thought of getting out and "walking the Jeep" but with that shiny corvette in front I figured I should probably be responsible. I have scared a couple riders really good by letting the clutch out in low and hopping out and walking beside the jeep steering from the outside.

[56willys]

I custom made windshield washers for the jeep. It's probably not something I'll use all the time, but it was a fun experiment.

So I found an old oil can as a reservoir and mounted it to the firewall. Then my Grandpa gave me a washer pump from his plow truck. I drilled a hole in the bottom of the oil can and sealed the pump into it. So that the pump is hidden under the dash. Then I bought a washer nozzle online with udjustable sprayers so it can be positioned anywhere. Mounted that on the cowl and ran some hose to the pump. So everything is hidden behind the dash. And I just have a momentary on toggle switch on the dash. It actually works really well. And the only thing you can see is an old can on the firewall, which actually looks kinda neat.

[56willys]

Here's some photos of the latest lighting upgrades. I added some corner marker lights which are also wired with turnsignals. I feel like the extra visibility at night would be a good idea. And I installed reverse lights. The shift tower in flossy has the rods exposed so I could put the switch on that. However some transmission are all in closed so some might not work. But the light is super nice for backing up.

[gmwillys]

The washer can idea is pretty good there '56. The Permatex jack oil can will make most scratch their heads in wonderment. A lot better than the Jack Daniels coolant overflow bottle that you see over and over again. The lights turned out well too. Great engineering on the reverse lights too.

[LarrBeard]

You are having just too much fun.

de WB9UFS

[Mike P]

Getting better all the time!

[56willys]

This past Saturday my friend had his annual picnic. Which has basically evolved into a private car show. I'm guessing 120 people and 30-40 classic cars. The host's 6 cars are pretty much fair game to drive, the keys are in them and most anyone can hop in and drive their dream cars down the road. And everyone else's cars are there if anyone wants to ride they'll be more then happy to take you. We burned up an entire 55 gallon drum of 110 octane race fuel! But the thing cooler then all these awesome cars, including an almost 1000 horsepower 57 ford and 2 giant Oliver tractors was that kid giving rides in his old Jeep! We drove Flossy down the day before about 25 miles then it made it back home the day after. I built a nice trail through the woods, had a pretty big rock pile, a massive pile of wood chips, and a big open field which was a great area for some speed and doing donuts in other jeeps (I sorta tried to spin flossy but the 70 hp just wasnt enoug, so my buddys lifted TJ was reserved for donuts). I was pretty much non stop in flossy all day to sunset. Taking one person after the next, I had a line of people waiting at one point. It was pretty cool that with all the other cool, fast, rare cars so many people chose to ride in flossy instead, a couple people said they liked the jeep best. There was one girl about 10 years old that was one of my most frequent riders, and kept coming back for ride after ride. And kept bringing her school friends over for rides. Then they all wanted to go at once, so with me driving, one kid in the passenger seat, another sitting on the ammo can between the seats, and five kids hanging on in the back. As we go up on an angle on the wood pile, come down, give the Hurricane all it's got in low range, blast the air horn and go bouncing through the field with little kids giggling/screaming at the top of their lungs! It was a blast! I think I instilled a bit of love for willys jeeps in a few kids. My other most frequent passenger, about 7 years old, when i wasn't driving he would be sitting in it all day, playing with shifters. His parents said the day after, that he wants them to help him save up money to buy a willys. Even though they have multiple newer jeeps, he wants a Willys!

Flossy did great, running all day the temp never started to go up, and it continually ran great. Just I knocked the new exhaust off on the rock pile, oops! But that was the only issue. I took a brother/sister, early 20s for rides, and upon them saying they had never driven a stick shift. I just had to go in the open field and give them a bit of clutch experience. They picked it up quick, and were super excited! Flossy with low range is perfect for learning. You can feel how a clutch works and go through the gears, having fun without it wanting to stall or go too fast. It was perfect! And then have a big dinner and hang out for the rest of the night. After it got dark, i couldn't resist putting the fog lights on, cranking the ac-dc up and going for a night cruise.

Sorry for the long post without really any jeep info, I just wanted to share the experience. It was a super fun time, and getting to share the fun of vintage jeeps with people was so rewarding. I would have loved to share some photos/videos but Flossy was just too popular, I never got a chance to get the camera out, so hopefully your imagination will be sufficient. There was even a fly-over by a piper cub!

[LarrBeard]

The long post was great, and you have figured out that everyone loves an old Jeep.

Keep it up and be safe.

[bmorgil]

Nothing like banging around in an old Jeep with good company!

That is a great way to get someone used to a clutch. I am going to use that one.

[Catlewis]

Mine is definitely a "chick magnet"! She can't reach the pedals yet, however she does know where the horn is! Foot prints all over pap's new upholstery.1181911820

[LarrBeard]

Jeeps are for kids - they just have too much fun.

Sometimes they are just little animals!

And, just for grins - my truck with its' grandson; 70+ generations removed.

[56willys]

Mine is definitely a "chick magnet"! She can't reach the pedals yet, however she does know where the horn is! Foot prints all over pap's new upholstery.1181911820

When you get that jeep running you'll always have some passengers, but drive it all you can now. When they get old enough to reach the pedals, you'll lose your seat as the driver, Haha! But that's a good thing, nothing better then seeing kids have fun and enjoy vintage vehicles. As the great Aristotle said, "a child that drives an old jeep is guaranteed to have great success in life" :D

Hams 48 looks awesome next to it's grandkid, such a cool pair!

[Catlewis]

Still need to do some work on the top however I've been driving it for some time now. 1182411825

[bmorgil]

That thing is giving you the perfect experience Catlewis!

You sure that was Aristotle 56'? Hahaha! Those kids are loving climbing all over that Jeep. Cutie pies!

[56willys]

A few simple things I've done over the last few weeks. The front diff. pinion seal randomly decided to drain all the oil oil out one day. So I put a new pinion seal and diff cover gasket on the front, and ilk probably do the same to the rear soon. That has eliminated one spot of oil on the floor now! I finally got a bit of interior comforts. I got a rear seat from a YJ, which actually fits perfectly in the willys. I even used factory fold/tumble brackets from the Wrangler. Then I found some old burlap feed bags at a flea market. And put those on the front seats to cover the bare springs. Everyone at the picnic last week really liked that over the bare springs! I also made some shifter boots from an old leather jacket. So it's starting to feel a little more like a real vehicle now!

[56willys]

Here's a video of what Flossy sounds like with the supertrapp muffler! https://youtu.be/uiUbvskBLnA?si=3EqRMC4LzAwmwoMB

This is probably the last time you'll here it though. The pipes got too damaged rockcrawling. There's no other way to fit the muffler in order to get the pipes tucked up out of the way. So I ordered a stock exhaust for it and I'll go that route. Then I can offroad at ease knowing the exhaust won't fall off. It was a good test and I might revisit the custom exhaust in the future when I have acquired more skill!

[bmorgil]

I love those seat covers 56'!

[gmwillys]

The seat covers look awesome!

We have an old Thrush glass pack on the Heep. It stays tucked up within the frame rail but is sturdy enough to bounce off the occasional rock without damage. Once it gets burned in, it sounds pretty good.

[test1328]

That's good info to know, 56, regarding the YJ Wrangler rear seat fitting in there so nicely. I've been wondering about a rear seat for my CJ. My Dad had one long ago that I sat in when I was a kid, but I don't know whatever happened to that seat. It was no where to be found when I cleaned out my Dad's place. Maybe it rotted away? Who knows. By the way, what happened to the left support on the rear seat when you folded it up? Did it fail or is it just a weird angle in the picture?

[56willys]

That's good info to know, 56, regarding the YJ Wrangler rear seat fitting in there so nicely. I've been wondering about a rear seat for my CJ. My Dad had one long ago that I sat in when I was a kid, but I don't know whatever happened to that seat. It was no where to be found when I cleaned out my Dad's place. Maybe it rotted away? Who knows. By the way, what happened to the left support on the rear seat when you folded it up? Did it fail or is it just a weird angle in the picture?

Yep, the seat works perfectly and can be found pretty cheap at swapmeats. That support isn't factory, it was extended with all thread by the previous owner for mock-up. I didn't get the back latched in all the way and didn't notice till after someone sat down. So it bent alittle, but it's not important. There's mounts on the side of the inner fender that hold the weight.

[56willys]

Awhile ago I found a Crack in the pcv line between the head and the side valve cover. Well, I'm just getting around to fixing it (I just put a plug in the head for the time being). During the process of removing the old line I accidentally cracked the fuel line by the carb (yeah I'm an idiot). So I got all new lines bent and ready to go, just need to get some fittings and form the flares. My question is; the pcv valve located on the side valve cover, what should be inside it? All there is is a baffle with a small hole, is there supposed to be something else like a check ball or something? I don't want to put it back together and lose all the vacuum, but I hate to buy a new one if it's okay.

[bmorgil]

It should have a spring and a valve in it 56'. They were serviceable back in the day. Some "bubba's" took the spring and valve out and threw them away. As manifold vacuum decreases, the spring closes the valve keeping the engine from running lean under load (low manifold vacuum). A plugged crankcase ventilation system will cause crankcase pressure and "sludge" in the engine.

https://storage.proboards.com/6133200/thumbnailer/HKBDAJWP0TGFfynZ0FLY.png

[LarrBeard]

A. Every one of us has, at one time or another, managed to split a gas or oil line while we do something else on the engine. That's not being an idiot - that's life.

And most of us have flared a line before we put the hardware on it and had to start over. Don't do that.

B. And, me thinks that someone gutted your PCV valve at one time or another. It should have a spring, ball bearing or some other innards to act as a check valve so that it can act as a one-way check valve, not just a conduit of crankcase gas back to the vacuum system. There are lots of You Tube videos about PCV valves in general even if you can't find that exact valve.

[gmwillys]

“A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.” —Albert Einstein.

'56, if the fuel line was damaged, then it was probably ready for replacement. Preventive Maintenace. Keep after it, you are doing great!

[56willys]

Thanks, gentlemen. I didn't know the pcv valve could separate into parts. So I unthreaded it and found the same internals as BM's photo (thanks, man) However inside was very dirty and filled with gunk, so i cleaned it really well and reinstalled with a fresh line to the intake. No more vacuum leaks!! And I finished the fuel line, good thing I did. The rubber hose on it under the water pump was dry rotten and very stiff. So it's a good thing I replaced it. I had planned on waiting until I have the engine out for rear main seal replacement, but it's good to have done now.

Also I got my drivers permit the other day, so I can take flossy out on the big roads without needing a driver!

[LarrBeard]

"Also I got my drivers permit the other day, so I can take flossy out on the big roads without needing a driver!"

As I read the cohesive posts you put together and look at all of the things you are getting done to Flossy, I forget that you are not on Old Coot like most of us here on the forum. Take an Atta Boy young man.

Just be careful out there.

[gmwillys]

Congratulations young man!

[56willys]

Here's a little something to help remind you that I'm the younger generation here. I just put underglow on flossy, haha. I'll probably cause a lot of discrepancy for this, but I thinkbits kinda cool. And when I put the lights to white intakes it really nice for offroading at night. Anything when it's dark, even just checking tires or locking in the hubs the white lights are super handy.

[bmorgil]

I love it 56'! Anything to show her off works.

Take heed with your youth 56', it will last forever.

[gmwillys]

We were all young once upon a time. I kid about the mall crawlers and the squatted trucks fad, but the rock lights give Flossy a good, functional look. I like it actually.

[56willys]

Well guys, I guess I am a true willys owner now. I finally had my first breakdown. My Dad and I went to take Flossy out for a quick drive last night and everything was working perfectly. We got about 2 or 3 miles from home cruising along at 40 just as smooth as can be. Then all of a sudden I went to hit the throttle alittle and there was nothing. The tach fell to zero. So we drift to the side and stop, engines dead. I try to re start and there's nothing, somehow we lost all electricity. Not a single light or anything works. The floor starter spins the engine over just fine, but no ignition. We pushed it down the road to a nearby parking lot. And I started checking things out with a multimeter. There was power going into the ignition switch. But when I turn the key to run it drops to zero volts going into the key. Turn to acc and there's five volts now. The headlight fuse was melted and deformed but the metal was still fine. A friend was just coming home from work and stopped to help. We couldn't figure anything out. So we made a jumper wire directly from the battery to the coil, used the floor starter and it fired right up. So we drove home, the whole way running just perfectly. Get back disconnect the battery to shut it off. And I continued the search.

I irst tried the process of elimination and removed all the fuses. I took the ign switch out thinking thatight be the problem, it checks out fine. But I directly connect all the wires that would go to the key. There's 12 volts in the fuse block. I put the coil fuse in and lose all power. Pull the coil fuse out and I have 12 volts again. Then I put all the fuses back in and put one end of the multimeter on the main inlet to the fuses, and the other to body and there's continuity between the hot and ground with the battery disconnected. So somewhere I must have a wire shorted out, I'm guessing either light or coil circuit. But I don't know why it hasn't popped a fuse. It got late last night so I left off there, I'll ses what I can find today.

Do win a merit badge for my first willys breakdown? I knew it would happen someday, I'm a true willys owner know haha!

[56willys]

Maybe the underglow was just too much for flossy to handle.

[gmwillys]

One needs to always wear comfortable shoes when going out for a drive. After finally replacing the original fuel tank, the Heep has been pretty reliable.

[bmorgil]

One needs to always wear comfortable shoes when going out for a drive. ...

Hahahaha! I hear that gm! I have taken a "nice walk" a few times in my life.

[56willys]

I agree with the comfortable shoes! Always be prepared for weather changes as well, you never know how long you'll be.

Well I dug into the wiring harness and found the plug I had on the main power wire had melted. So I replaced it with direct wire and everything's been good so far. It was a very cheap plug so I'm guessing it was just not strong enough for the amperage. I've taken a couple trips to town since and it's been fine.

[LarrBeard]

the plug I had on the main power wire had melted.

Connectors on wiring harnesses are a perpetual weak point. GMWillys can speak to that on things other that old Jeeps.

I put a replacement wiring harness on the '48 and all in all it was great - but there was one oh-by-the-way.

The horn might or might not blow when I wanted it to hoot. I lived with it for a year or so, then one day when I had nothing else to do (!) I went bug hunting. I finally ended up at the middle of the steering wheel under the horn button. It turned out that the connector on the horn wire had been crimped on insulation, not the copper conductor (well, just barely on some copper).

[gmwillys]

Old Jeeps or anything that has been around the block a few times has the potential to be troublesome when it comes to wiring harnesses. In northern climates especially, if someone starts probing wires with a test light, and doesn't seal up the probe holes, then there are potential internal wire corrosion that can happen. This can fool you visually to think a wire is good, but within the sheathing because you may not see the probe hole right off. I had a Ford plow truck one time that the cab marker lights would pop the fuse immediately when the lights were turned on. I searched for a short for an entire morning and didn't see anything visually. I finally was fed up with looking and stuck a screwdriver in the fuse holder and waited to see something get hot. Within a few seconds there was a wisp of smoke coming up from the main harness on the fire wall. The wire that was hot was probed at one point, and the wire was green with corrosion on the inside. A ten-minute splice and re-seal and the lights worked perfectly again.

[56willys]

Now that I finally have more time to spend in the garage. I'll be getting back to work on Flossy here.
I replaced the last remaining parts of the clutch linkage. The bellcrank(?) (Tube that goes between the frame and t-case with the clutch cable and link rod attached) for some reason I can't think of it name currently, haha. But I realized the old one had some slop. So I pulled it out and sure enough inside looks like it cam from the titanic. It was all nasty, excessive wear, and very dry with lots of rust and no grease. Got all new installed and now the clutch linkage is 100% new. It feels like it's hydraulic, I can push the pedal in by hand standing outside the jeep. Super smooth!

Then I got the hardtop installed. From what I can guess it's an original jeep part, from the mid 60s. I still have some brackets I'm not sure of placement yet. And since I have the newer tall windshield I couldn't get all the bolts in place along the front. But it still seals and is held on well. The doors just have a simple piano hinge that bolts right onto the side of the tub. I'm not super thrilled about having holes there when I take the doors off, but that's why I like the patina jeep. Because it won't be any worse then all the other holes everywhere else.

With winter here, and penndot covering the roads with a jeeps most dangerous foe, SALT. I think it's getting time to pull the engine for its light rebuild. I don't plan on a complete rebuild. Just a refresh with new seals and gaskets. You already know of the rear main seal issue which has been partially fixed by lucas. But it still leaks everywhere else. For time, and budget reasons, hopefully I don't need to do a total remachining and all new parts. I'm planing on just replacing what is bad and keeping as much as I can how it is.

I'll also, if I have time, go through the trans, and t-case. Maybe find something wrong in there that could be causing the problems with the overdrive unit.

Like I said I'm not doing a complete rebuild, just freshening up what it needs. It won't be anything like some of the fancy rebuild threads there has been on the forum, haha! I've never done any engine/transmission work before so I'm looking forward to a great learning experience. And just keeping it simple.

Are there any specialty tools I might need for the rebuild? That I should get in advance. I have a set of calipers, and my brother has some precision measuring tools. But any advice on things to get would be much appreciated.

The dates for my favorite event (Bantam Jeep Heritage Festival) was just released for June. And ill be getting my drivers license sometime in March. So hopefully I'll have everything back together sometime around then. If all goes well, I'm optimistic at this point...

[Catlewis]

Ideal conditions would be a situation where the crank still falls within "STD" spec allowing you to simply buy a set of rod and main bearings and replace them. Same with the cylinders, sure would be nice if they fell within standard specs and you could simply install a new set of rings and hone the cylinder walls. Cam bearings are a little more involved, so I'd let them alone if at all possible. If you want to put "money" into something, have the head completely gone thru, valve job and new seals. I found a 1970 Ford 429 like this back in 1996 (excellent original condition) simply cleaned it up, install new rings and bearings original cam & lifters, and this engine still runs great today. Make certain you keep track of each component and reinstall exactly the same. I have a block of wood (2" X 6") drilled holes in it for each lifter and each pushrod. Works great to keep things organized.

[56willys]

Thanks cat, if it is within spec to replace bearings without machining that would be such a dream come true. I doubt I'll be that lucky though. The engine runs just fine and barely smokes on occasion. But it's smooth and has plenty of power. So maybe I'll be able to keep bearings, and just replace gaskets. My main goal is to reduce oil loss. I will be sure to keep parts organized. I've torn plenty of engines apart, but very few were going to be put back together. Mostly just tear a junk engine apart to see what's inside. So I'm excited to actually make it run afterwards.

[Catlewis]

Like you I often tore things apart just to see how they worked (great teaching tool, nothing like hands on). First engine I ever rebuilt was back in the 1980's and it was 70's era 350 chevy. Spent tons of time cleaning and repainting everything, it was impressive to the eye. However I failed to understand the importance of making certain everything was reassembled "exactly" as it was disassembled. Pistons facing proper direction, rod caps properly oriented, etc. Consequently it didn't last long. I learned the hard and expensive way. Hoping to help you avoid this is my only goal.

[bmorgil]

Like you I often tore things apart just to see how they worked (great teaching tool, nothing like hands on). First engine I ever rebuilt was back in the 1980's and it was 70's era 350 chevy. Spent tons of time cleaning and repainting everything, it was impressive to the eye. However I failed to understand the importance of making certain everything was reassembled "exactly" as it was disassembled. Pistons facing proper direction, rod caps properly oriented, etc. Consequently it didn't last long. I learned the hard and expensive way. Hoping to help you avoid this is my only goal.

There is no doubt learning from the experience of those before us, is the most important facet of evolution. There are a few things that require precision in the repair of your automobile. Some "short cuts" inevitably cost a lot more time and money in the long run. If it cost too much time and/or money than you wish to expend and it runs, usually let it run. When the time is right and you love it enough, there is no better accomplishment than a job well done.

[gmwillys]

Core engines can still be had for a reasonable amount of money. When I was in High School, we had cores that we tore down and reassembled for practice and parts identification purposes. It was a great training tool. The engine that I was issued was the 348 c.i. big block Chevy. The valve covers alone were some of the best ones ever to be mounted to an engine.

If you are carrying good oil pressure, leave the engine alone outside of re-sealing the oil leaks. If that doesn't fit into your plans, then when the time is right, read your shop manual from cover to cover. Pull your 134 and set up a note book and photographs to notate everything that you take apart. With the aid of the shop manual, measure everything, and assess the true condition of the internals. If all checks out, then re-assemble carefully. It isn't rocket surgery, and for the most part was designed to be fairly uncomplicated to rebuild. Again, your shop manual will be your best friend.

[56willys]

Thanks guys as always! I love hearing the stories and tips from those who have experienced what I haven't. Helps me think of things with better perspective.

I sometimes go by the philosophy of "if it ain't broken, don't try to fix it" I would love to drop it off at a machine shop and get it completely machined and cleaned. But the budget doesn't want me to think about that, haha! Last summer when the rear main went out, if it wasn't for lots of lucas I couldn't have driven anywhere. So it needs resealed no matter what. But other then excessive leaks there's literally nothing wrong with the engine. So I think it will be fine with just gaskets.

I'll probably take the crank out, pack in the new main seal. Check bearings and put it back together. It should be pretty easy to get everything in its respective places.

What do you guys recommend for engine removal. I think I'll take off the front clip, just to get it out of the way. Should I take engine/trans out together? Or engine out then trans out from underneath?

P.S. I'm looking forward to installing the rope main seal. I'm excited to learn an old school repair!

[bmorgil]

I think it is much easier to work on with the fenders off. The transfer case, transmission, and engine assembly will get gangly if you try to pull them all out together with the body tub still on. The transmission/transfer case come out easily together. I would drop those two together cross member and all as an assembly. Support the back of the engine. Then the engine comes out easily fenders on or off.

[gmwillys]

I agree with Bmorgil, remove the front clip with the fenders. That will give you the best way to see exactly what you are doing. Save the standing on your head for other endeavors. Also, I agree with dropping the transmission and transfer case with the cross member as an assembly. The skid plate will give you options to secure the assembly to a transmission jack to prevent you getting hurt. (I'm a big fan of using short ratchet straps rather than the chains and hooks supplied with most transmission jacks.

[56willys]

Sounds good, I just looked things over more tonight and it looks like the trans will come out really easily. I don't have a trans. jack, but I think a floor jack will work just fine if secured correctly to the skidplate. And I'll have a second set of hands to help balence it out.

Another question; what do you recommend i hook onto to lift the engine out? Is it safe to take a couple head bolts out and put hooks onder them with a strap front to back? It doesn't look like there's much to attach to on these f-134s.

[gmwillys]

I would look into one of these F134 lifting hard points. There is two positions made into it for lifting just the engine or the whole assembly with transmission and transfer case. It is the safest way to go about it in my opinion. If that doesn't pan out, yes you can remove two head bolts and use those points for your lift. I'm not a huge fan of breaking torque on head fasteners because it may cause you heart burn later on for head gasket leaks, but to install the lifting point listed bellow, you would have to break torque there too. In my experience, I look for accessory mount bosses that are at least 3/8" to thread in a grade 8 bolt to attach my lifting chains to. I like using a chain because I can adjust the hoist by using the chain link that best balances the engine... (or if I need a certain angle to clear obstructions like a core support on a traditional engine bay, I have that ability).

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/nos-engine-lift-plate-kit-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine-8332071/

[bmorgil]

...... In my experience, I look for accessory mount bosses that are at least 3/8" to thread in a grade 8 bolt to attach my lifting chains to. I like using a chain because I can adjust the hoist by using the chain link that best balances the engine... (or if I need a certain angle to clear obstructions like a core support on a traditional engine bay, I have that ability).

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/nos-engine-lift-plate-kit-fits-50-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-f-engine-8332071/

Great experience you shared gm. Definitely the way to go about it. Find some threaded holes and use what you can find to hold the chains off of everything. When engines leave the shop for install, they go over a test stand and whenever, possible, a dyno. They are assembled and ready to run. Most of the time the exhaust is not on however. On peeJ I cant remember exactly how I hung it but it was timed wired and ready to fire. If you gaze at it long enough, some metal and some chain and even a piece of pipe, will provide inspiration.

[gmwillys]

I have a four foot section of 1/2" log chain with a large hook on one end. I have found that that chain works best for most applications when used with grade 8 threaded rod for tapping into accessory holes. Between the chain and various sizes of ratchet straps, this set up works for everything from engine pulls to picking up bodies.

[56willys]

Thank you guys for the tips, the lifting hook gm mentioned looks like it would work great. For removal it would be fine, but I wouldn't want to leave it on permanently and I don't want to break torque after reassembly. I've looked it over and am thinking I can attach to the front motor plate, and bolt through some bell housing bolts after the trans is out. To get chains on the engine


I got busy this last couple days (it finally got above 10 degrees) so I got to work. Fenders/grill are removed, and I got all the accessories and wires off the engine. Aside from the trans and motor mounts there's nothing connected to the engine! I have distributor, oil canister, fan, distributor, etc. all off. I just need to disconnect the clutch linkage then the heavy pieces can come out. I got an engine gasket set, trans gaskets and bearings, and a bunch of other parts on the way. It should get exciting pretty soon!! And probably most importantly I finally ordered a service manual, something I put off for far too long.

Upon removing the starter I noticed I may be changing the flywheel ring gear. It looks like the teeth are half worn off. I'll look it over better once it's out, but it doesn't look good. I'll call some local machine shops to see about having it resurfaced. Then I'll have to learn how to change ring gears! Finding out I need to repair more than I thought is kind of disappointing, but at the same time learning a new skill is always exciting!! At this point, the more things I find wrong, the more new skills I will learn!

P.S. Got the 2025 KW catalog a couple days ago. Flossy got a few good pictures in there!

[bmorgil]

Now you're working it 56! You are going to love being able to get to everything. The ring gear is "sweated" to the flywheel. It takes a little practice and a lot of heat. I would have the machine shop install the new gear when they resurface the flywheel. This is something a good shop has done many times.

[56willys]

Well, I looked at my spare flywheel, and it's worn but not nearly as bad. Maybe I'll have that one resurfaced and not mess with the ring gear. Just stuff to think about, I still have a ways to go before i need it.

Over the weekend we got the drivetrain removed. I don't have a transmission jack, and rather then trying to balence it on a floor jack. I stuck the engine hoist through the door. Ran straps under the trans, pulled the bolts out and just lowered it to the floor. Kinda unorthodox, but it actually worked really well.

As that was happening I supported the back of the engine with a strap and I put a jack under it just for a 2nd safety.

Then I strapped to the front motor plate on either side and ran a strap under the back between the bellhousing and oil pan. And it lifted right out!

[gmwillys]

Looking great '56! As far as removing the transmission/transfer case, there is almost always more than one way to go about it. You did well in using what you have on hand for tooling, and made it work in your advantage. Well done.

If you do not want to replace the ring gear completely, you can flip it over and use the non-worn side. It's an old farmer fix, but it gets all the use out of the ring gear.

[56willys]

Last night I started on the engine. Everything is completely covered in a thick coating of oil and grime. So I got a putty knife and went to town scraping all that off. I got it pretty clean for a start. I wanted to get as much junk off before I open it up, don't want all the dirt going in the engine. I pulled the flywheel off, and the back of the block was full of mouse nest: maybe that was what always smelt bad when it got hot!

Any tips will be appreciated for this. I tried taking the crank pulley off. The nut came of easily, but the pulley is stuck on the crank. It's solid inside so I can't use a normal balencer removal tool. My only other puller is pictured, it's just not big enough to fit, and I'm worried it will bend the edge of the pulley. The timing cover is too tight against it to hammer it off. I sprayed it with penetrating oil last night so maybe it will come loose after soaking a bit. But I'm not really sure how to tackle this... Thanks guys!!

EDIT: I got the pulley off after some heat and a little perseverance with the puller getting it to fit.

[56willys]

The past couple days I made some awesome progress, all that's left is the rotating assembly and cam/valves! I'll recap everything in following posts, so let's start in the beginning...


I scraped the past 70 years worth of oil and gunk of the engine/gearbox. That was a mess, I ended up with about 15 pounds worth of gunk in a pile almost the size of the transmission, yeah it was nasty. Good thing I've always liked getting dirty, haha! I found the timing pointer on the engine, I didn't know it was there because it was completely covered in grime. It's far from a final clean but atleast I can handle the pieces without immediately getting covered in grease.

[56willys]

I removed the remaining accessories, lines, exhaust, oil tube, etc. Removed the rocker arm shaft and push rods. I marked all the pushrods with there appropriate cylinder, so they go back together correctly. Found a hole in the block by the front freeze plug, it doesn't go into anything, but there's a chunk of material gone.

[56willys]

Then the part I was most excited/nervous for, what does it look like when I take the head off?

All the bolts came out perfectly, all had similar torque and loosend well, threads felt good. Pulled the head off. Had some deposits of realy nasty coolant. The head gasket between cylinders 2 & 3 looks like it was letting exhaust gas through. Intake valves look good, just need carbon cleaned off. One exhaust valve has been changed, it has "ex willys 26" cast on the top the other 3 do not. Maybe one or 3 were changed at one point? The deck surfaces look good, and don't appear to have been machined.

[56willys]

Here's where it goes south; piston #1 has a bit of ring wash on one side, #2 has bad ring wash, #3 looks great, but #4 has a big chunk out of one side and a small hole in the other side. It's kinda disheartening when you can see the compression ring from the top because the side of the piston is blown out... and there's chunk of ring embedded in the top of the piston. Luckily the bore looks okay, there's not alot of cross hatching, but there's no marks where the pistons hole is. There is minimal ridge at the top, just enough to barely feel.

Maybe I buy one piston, rings for all four, run a "dingle ball" (not sure of correct term) hone through the bores and call it good??

Also cylinder 2 exhaust valve has multiple cracks in it. And when the valves are open they seem really loose in the guides? I xan wiggle them side to side substantially. How hard is it to change guides? Should I do that? Also all the valves seat slightly above the deck, except #2 (Crack valve) sits flush almost below the deck.

And the pistons all rock side to side in the bore. I don't know if this is normal?

Please inform me of anything I should know, I really don't know what I'm doing here so all help is appreciated! My biggest problem is not having enough experience to know if something is wrong or not.

[56willys]

Got the oil pan and timing cover removed

[56willys]

I pulled #4 piston (broken one) and realized the small hole I could see from the top is a massive hole inside. It burned all the way to the second ring. And the other side has a big chunk missing, which is almost to the second ring. Compression ring is gone, only a quarter of it remains (pictured).

[56willys]

Here's some photos of the #4 rod bearing and journal. There is some slight ridges worn in the crank. I don't know if it's runnable or if I should put bearings in it? If the crank surface is slightly uneven can I put new bearings in without having the crank reground?

I checked crankshaft endplay, just put a dial indicator on the back where the flywheel attaches. The endplay is 0.008" I'm not sure what the spec is, but I feel like that's acceptable. And I checked rod side play, by putting feeler guages between the side of the rod cap and the crank. Those results were; cyl.#1: 0.010", cyl #2: 0.008", cyl #3: 0.008", cyl #4: 0.007". My manual says it should be 0.004-0.010" so I should be good.

Anything else I should check before removing the crank?

[56willys]

I tried to remove the oil pump, I removed the 3 bolts that go into the block. But it won't slide out. I don't know if that just because of silicone or just age. I want to make sure I'm not missing something before I start prying it out. I don't want to break something. Anything I'm missing for oilbpump removal?

[bmorgil]

Your deep in it now 56'. The oil pump should come out with a little tapping back and forth.

I have gone over a "Good" rebuild as far as rebuilding goes in the post I have attached. This is the part that separates the good job from the bad job. The proper machining and assembly are what makes for a great running "Like New" motor, and one that is running but, not near 100%. Cutting corners and running new rings on a well worn bore are the wrong way, no matter what you read, hear or are told. A ball hone is used by shops to quickly pick up a little cross hatch on a GOOD bore, when you are freshening a Good Running Motor, that has excellent bores and pistons and you are putting in new rings. For instance the motor has been run, there isn't any signs of wear (no ridge at all) and the bore meets the taper specifications. This technique is often used after a a race or a few, on a new racing engine if the compression is dropping off a few percentage points. Measuring a bore accurately takes expensive tools. When you visit a machine shop, ask to see the bore micrometer and then ask how much that tool costs. You will quickly learn this is a very precise process. Boring and honing a block for new rings and/or pistons is critical for a good running, long running engine. You are holding the tolerances to tenths of a thousands of an inch. Having been around engine work most of my life, I cringe every time I hear of some of the hacking that goes on with engine rebuilding. There is no sense in taking an engine completely apart and then cutting corners on the machine work, new parts and re-assembly. I cant say this enough because this is where most screw it up. "The piston to bore fit and finish are beyond important." The valves need to be done correctly. Many have read or been told to lap them. Bad idea. Lapping is for checking the valve contact area and should not be thought of as a technique to restore their seal. I could spend chapters on why. The guides should not allow you to feel side to side movement. If the valve is moving around because of loose guides it will create a few problems. Many love to argue about how cheap and short cut ridden they can get an engine running for. It is not correct and I would only "hack" one back together if I was in a war and I needed to get it going for escape, or I was broke and had to absolutely get it moving. If you can you are FAR better off waiting until you can afford to do a correct job. Any good machine shop will show you the right way. Most have no idea what a machine shop has to do to restore an engine and have no real idea what it takes or why, because they have either gotten away with hacking or, someone told them they got away with hacking.

Here is what needs to be done to do the job correctly:
https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?3252-First-time-to-the-Engine-Shop

[56willys]

First off, thanks for the info, Bm.

Now I need to decide what I should do. I would love to take it to a shop and get it completely machined. But the way I see it, spending the money isn't the real issue, it's, do I want to spend the money on this engine. Where as if I'm gonna spend a couple grand on the jeep, I might as well swap in a different engine that is more suitable for sustained rpm and keeping up with modern traffic. But that puts me back to, do I really want a different engine, because I really like the old f head. And now i have an engine that was running just fine sitting, collecting dust as i spend months/years swapping in a custom drivetrain. When i could have just continued topping of the oil and running down the road. And if i put a different engine in, the chassis still doesn't allow for higher mph. So either way, if i have the f-head completly rebuilt or i change engines, im still spending a few thousand dollars and months of work to essentially have the same end result as ifbi had never touched the engine. Something to think about, something you all should probably know, I can be very indecisive at times.

The truth is, the engine literally ran perfectly (few people would believe by how it looks) but it had good power, ran smooth, started up before I even heard the starter, and just kept on pulling no matter what I did, heck, it had good oil pressure! So a big amount of time and money at a machine shop, and I doubt it would feel any different, to be honest.

I've realized no matter what I do, I'll never be able to actually drive down the road for long distances at a good speed. Even ifbi engine swap it, whereas If I spent that money on a different chassis (example: chassis swap a willys pickup, or gladiator) I would have a way better end product, with the same amount of money. My goal for Flossy is simple, cruise around town/short commutes, and occasional offroading. Aside from oil leaks I had that achieved with the engine how it was!

So what if I just leave it as is, continue with the new gaskets, (maybe replace one piston??) And just keep running it as long as it will let me. Then say it quits running 2 years from now, then I'll be better suited for whatever I might decide to do with it. With how well it ran (forget what it looks like) I had absolutely no reason to doubt it even the least bit. Yeah, it may not be the "most perfect" way of doing it but if I get a couple years of enjoyment out of it. I'd call that a win! I don't know, maybe I'm all wrong, but I feel like the farmers running these things back in the day probably did some really sketchy fixes and pushed the jeeps harder, with pretty good luck.

I am not a fan of hacking things together either, and I do think things should be done right. At the same time, it's hard to ignore what people are getting away with in the junkyard LS community, haha!

So I would appreciate some opinions on what I should do, if it's worth just putting it back together, and continuing as it was, or should I just start all over?.... I'm probably entirely wrong...

[56willys]

This engine work has me missing the rust repair last winter... It was nice when I found something wrong i simply took a grinder to it and then welded over it. If it doesn't work right, it hit with a hammer until it does, haha!

[bmorgil]

There is only one way to do it right '56. If you were satisfied with the way it was running, you probably shouldn't have taken it apart. Getting It to run correctly without reconditioning the bores is not going to happen. The piston you have photographed below clearly indicates that cylinder Definitely needs to be bored and honed and a new oversize piston installed. The ridge you indicate is present in the other cylinders, tells the story on those cylinders, they are also worn out. I would say you may have been happy with the way it was running but, in no way was it running well. I can tell you if all 4 cylinders and the valves were sealing correctly, it would have been running Much, Much better. The blown piston and rings and the condition of the other bores, create a lot of crankcase pressure and force oil and gasses past the gaskets and seals. This creates a very leaky engine with dirty oil, that wont seal up no mater what you use for gaskets. Everything has a cause and effect. Swapping in a good running engine is also a great way to save time and money. Just be sure to run a leak down on the used engine. You don't want to put in a motor that has poor combustion sealing.

In regards to the LS junkyard videos, I enjoy them. They sell a lot of junk yard parts. They show how to do it if you want to roll the dice. For everyone of those videos, there are hundreds who lost their humor for them when things didn't work that way for very long. If you are satisfied with your "rebuild" fouling plugs smoking a little, leaking, and dirtying the oil very quickly and lasting for just a few thousand miles, have at it. I will take the correct job every time. If those videos were the way to go, we wouldn't need new parts or machine shops.

The most important thing here is that you have fun with it. A hacked up rebuild will often "take the fun out of it". It might on the other hand last a few thousand more miles. You should do what you want with it. Give it your best thought process and give it a go. This is how some of us learn.

[56willys]

Thanks again, I apologize if my previous post may have sounded out of line. I guess i just need to make a decision, because I really don't want to get into an engine swap now, but in the future might be cool. To be honest, the engine is mostly why i bought the jeep, the body was junk, the brakes/wiring was junk everything was junk. But yet that engine started up and ran amazingly. Yet here I am with every else on the jeep completely rebuilt, and the engine is bad. I don't see how it makes since to invest in this engine, if I decide to completely get rid of it, a couples years down the line. Your right, I probably shouldn't have taken it apart, I just wanted to fix a rear main seal, and tidy up a couple things. Had i left it alone other than oil leaks, I would have trusted it for a cross country road trip, haha! I wasn't expecting to find pieces of piston gone. And I figured since I know it ran and had good compression, there wouldn't be any issues. As far as the ridges on the cylinders, there really isn't much. You can BARELY I mean barely feel it. I've assisted friends tear apart 1980s era ford v8s that had WAY more ridge. My brother has a basic bore guage, I'll try and measure for taper. I think the manual says it should be within 0.005". It won't be the most perfect measure, but it will get me an idea, and this old of an engine has pretty loose tolerances anyway, I feel.

[bmorgil]

A few things to keep in mind '56.

Cylinders wear at the top in the first 1/4 to 1/2 inch of piston ring travel. This is where combustion pressure is sufficient to push the rings against the wall creating the seal. It is normal to still see the original cross hatch of the honing well down in the cylinder bore with the top worn out. This is the reason for the taper specification. The cylinder will be close to original and unworn at the bottom, and worn the most at the top where the rings are under pressure. Little wear occurs once combustion pressure drops after the first few degrees of motion. .005" of wear in the cylinder is .0025" of wear per side. You cannot feel .0025". If you can feel a ridge, it is much more than that. At this point you are definitely at a crossroads. We haven't discussed the condition of the crank. I can visually see it needs to be turned.

The "quickest way to at least do a half way decent job would be to:
Bore and hone the block, your cylinders are worn out and one is damaged badly by the broken piston. Have the machinist tell you how far oversize it needs to go and get new pistons and rings.
Have a valve job done on the head for the intakes, and the block for the exhaust. If the valves check out OK for reconditioning, have them ground.
Have the guides checked in both and replace if needed. Stay away from "Knurling".
Turn the the crank journals. The machine shop will tell you how far under size they needed to go so you can get the correct bearings.
Have the block deck and the head resurfaced to flat, so you aren't fighting head gaskets.

Anything less than this could be a recipe for disaster. Here is what you must take into consideration. Combustion temperatures will exceed 2000 deg. Fahrenheit. When you have a good seal at the rings and valves, not only will it make more power but most important, It will last. When things start leaking the hot 2000 deg. combustion gasses, the wear goes up tremendously. The hot gasses are sent into the crankcase where they burn and contaminate the oil and cause the bearings to wear. As the gasses shoot by the leaky rings and valves, they will "flame cut" the components wearing things faster and faster. As combustion pressure drops, the clean burn becomes not so clean, further contaminating oil and and wearing the bores and rings. The scratches on the bearing surfaces cause pressure loss and sporadic oil film strength which leads to the bearings burning up and spinning. So will it run with a half job? Of course it will, as long as it seals enough to create combustion. For how long? That is truly a guess.

I am not trying to "harp" on you '56, just trying to keep you out of trouble! I am very pleased that you are so into this. So many pound their way through and ruin a lot. Throwing good money after bad. I would feel bad if I lead you to believe a proper job isn't needed. As I said before, an engine with leaking combustion and scratched up bearing surfaces will run. Not well and not for as long as it could. I would be lying to you if I told you I haven't done what you are contemplating. I would tell you however, it turned out exactly as the the teachers teach will happen. The old saying fits very well here. "A good job need not be done again". I have redone more than one backyard "rebuild" that didn't work out for someone. It cost much more the second time around. Now if you are just trying to make it run so you can get rid of it, lots of people have done that. Buyer beware!

[56willys]

Your helping me, I REALLY appreciate that, I can't say how much I wish I could get a perfect job done. The problem is with me, flossy is my only running (it was) vehicle. I also have an old van that a friend gave me that will eventually be flossys towing rig. That project I just got last summer and it's been untouched for 20 years, it was free, they wanted it out of their yard and it was to good to scrap. Luckily it doesn't require much monetary input, just time. The big thing is I'll need a daily driver in a couple months, so the more I spend on this hurricane the less I can spend on a reliable daily. And in my failing attempt to be responsible, haha! I should be focusing on a driveable vehicle, not a 70 year old basket case, haha! I can't help it I'm addicted to old cars! And I pulled the engine thinking it would just be 100 bucks in gaskets and I'm back on the road, well, that escalated quickly! In a matter of 1 day I went from spending a couple hundred to spending a couple thousand dollars, so it's just a pretty big disappointment, that's all.

I did some work today, I didn't get any photos so I'll wait to go into detail until I take a camera out. But I got the other 3 pistons out, that was interesting (I'll wait for photos of that) then I pulled the main caps off one at a time. And followed the instructions in the manual for checking crankshaft run-out. And it actually checks out good, an the main bearings look okay. I pulled the rear main and it actually has a rubber seal. Did willys ever use rubber/neoprene rear main seals, or has someone changed it?

[56willys]

Next thing, I still can't get that oil pump out! I removed the 3 bolts that go into the block and I've been tapping a plastic coated dead blow hammer around it, it just won't budge. I've just lightly tapped it, I'm afraid to use more force, but I might have to. Is there anything I could be missing, or something I could try?

I do really appreciate your help here, no matter what I end up doing, it's still a learning process.

I'm going to call a local engine builder on Monday, and get a ballpark price for some machine work. At the very least have him grind the crank, do a valve job, and fix the bores. I want to do as much of the work myself as possible, it's cheaper, but mostly so I get experience.

[bmorgil]

Did willys ever use rubber/neoprene rear main seals, or has someone changed it?

Next thing, I still can't get that oil pump out! I removed the 3 bolts that go into the block and I've been tapping a plastic coated dead blow hammer around it, it just won't budge. I've just lightly tapped it, I'm afraid to use more force, but I might have to. Is there anything I could be missing, or something I could try?

I do really appreciate your help here, no matter what I end up doing, it's still a learning process.

I'm going to call a local engine builder on Monday, and get a ballpark price for some machine work. At the very least have him grind the crank, do a valve job, and fix the bores. I want to do as much of the work myself as possible, it's cheaper, but mostly so I get experience.

Yes Willys started out with the rope seal like most automotive manufacturers of that era. Sometime, (it looks like in the late 50's) in later models Willys switched to the two piece neoprene seal.

The oil pump has a long snout that is in the block. It sounds like it is stuck in the block. The technique to get it loose would be similar to getting a stuck distributor out. It is a bit unusual to have the oil pump get stuck but... Some heat on the block and some penetrating oil, and keep trying to wiggle it back and forth till it breaks loose from the block.

Every time I tear into an engine I learn something '56!

You have a good plan '56. Doing everything but the machine work yourself, is the way to save money. Taking your time like you are, and checking your process will save you a lot of headaches. I think you can get it done for less than you think. Head down, keep swinging '56!

[56willys]

Yes Willys started out with the rope seal like most automotive manufacturers of that era. Sometime, (it looks like in the late 50's) in later models Willys switched to the two piece neoprene seal.

The oil pump has a long snout that is in the block. It sounds like it is stuck in the block. The technique to get it loose would be similar to getting a stuck distributor out. It is a bit unusual to have the oil pump get stuck but... Some heat on the block and some penetrating oil, and keep trying to wiggle it back and forth till it breaks loose from the block.

Every time I tear into an engine I learn something '56!

You have a good plan '56. Doing everything but the machine work yourself, is the way to save money. Taking your time like you are, and checking your process will save you a lot of headaches. I think you can get it done for less than you think. Head down, keep swinging '56!

Thanks mate! Hopefully it turns out okay. My main concern (it may sound silly) is getting to the Bantam Jeep fest this June. I've been going there since I was 3 and always dreamt of driving my own jeep. I got the opportunity to have my jeep there the past two years, but I couldn't drive for age requirements. This will be the first year, I'm old enough to drive Flossy. If I don't make it, it's not the end of the world and I'll just hit it harder next year. But it'd be super cool to make it there. Fingers crossed I can get things sorted out relatively well, and get a good engine. With how it ran before, if the issues it has really caused that much loss in performance. It should feel supercharged after this. It already felt really strong for 70 hp, and got 20 mpg with a hole in a piston. If it really improves that much with fresh parts it should be pretty fun.

[56willys]

Off topic, but with all this talk about machining and engines. It's hard not to turn back to the LS community. It's amazing how far manufacturing has come, I know Flossy doesn't have many miles on it. And yet the only correct way to build it is to basically rework every aspect of its construction. Fast forward 50 years of production. I personally know multiple people who have gotten LS engines with well over 200,000 miles. Tear them apart and they say the rings/bearings are still good! And they still have cross hatching. It's just crazy how far the tolerances have come!

[bmorgil]

Yes you are looking at a few improvements that have made dramatic differences in how long engines last. As I have beat to death in the prior posts, the machining of the engine is critical and it has come a long, long way. The surface finish of the bore, and fit of the pistons in the bore are one of the primary reasons they do so well. Excellent new gasket technology and super accurate and precise CNC machining of sealing surfaces, have changed a lot of things. Computer control, controlling fuel wash at start up and while running added tremendous durability. What we have learned from decades of racing and pushing components have really made a difference. I have "cammed up" and stuck a great set of heads on a stock LS6 with over 100,000 miles on it and made 500 hp! The key was as we spoke of, the leak down was excellent. The engine was carrying good oil pressure. The oil was staying clean. The wearing of the rings and valve seal, begins as the sealing of combustion is lost. New materials, precise machining and cylinder wall finish as well as piston ring technology, has pushed modern engines way past what we were used to. At 50,000 miles in 1965, it needed a valve job, the rings and cylinders never made it past 100,000. They leaked all over. The better they seal everywhere, the longer they last.