Rear axle

[Skboyd]

A question that may have been asked several times. I've heard several opinions on this matter so I thought I would ask here. Remove bolts from ring gear. Been told to replace bolts with new,understand that. But I've heard use hardened bolts with red lock tite no need for bolt clips. Also drill holes in bolt head and tie together with safety wire. So what's gonna be my best solution to put back together safely?

[bmorgil]

In the early days, and when you really want to be sure.... "Correctly Installed Safety Wire" is aircraft quality. It simply doesn't get any better than that.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1003cct-how-to-safety-wire/

I have and do use Red Loctite, properly applied to clean dry threads. I have not had any issues in Street or Racing applications. I use Safety Wire when the racing gets serious however.

Do you replace the bolts:
This is a great question and came up every time a group of boys got together to learn about axle rebuilding. Correctly installed, the original ring gear bolts (High Grade 8 SAE) are torqued to a specification that puts them in stretch. They can be stretched a given number of times (not a lot of times) before they are no good. When we got together to write tech manuals, the engineers were concerned with the condition reused bolts would be in. This concern didn't start with my Tech group, it started long before. So this was a practice that has carried on from long ago. Because you who are writing the manual do not know how many times the bolts have been stretched, if they have been overstretched or if an impact gun was used to remove them, heat or anything that would ruin the bolts tensile strength, you simply wrote "Always Replace the Bolts".

[Skboyd]

Ok sounds good. So what are your thoughts on using or not using the lock straps for the bolts? I've heard a couple times don't use them, could break tear up things. My thoughts are they have been in there for years and no serious problems have occurred and they were designed and engineered for that application. Figured I would get to the bottom of that here. Lol

[bmorgil]

The lock straps worked just fine and still do. They were time consuming to properly install, should Never have a a tab bent twice and any tab that is loose should be removed. Bending tabs back and forth will lead to them breaking off. The production line issues caused by the long install time and the danger of knocking a bolt loose while bending a tab, led to "safer" more cost effective methods. Personally I have never heard of a problem with correctly installed locking tabs.

It is important when bending the tabs to not strike the bolt head in a way that will loosen it. One tab must be able to mechanically stop on the surface being bolted. A lot of people just bend up a tab without securing the other side. Something has to stop the washer from rotating. Proper installation is key. As you can see for today's production speed, there just too slow to do right.

[Skboyd]

Sounds good. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this topic. That's why I asked here. It gets a little mind boggling when you hear so many opinions, which one is best? My mind less boggled now. Lol
This vehicle will be doing NO racing, street use only. Well maybe off road too but nothing crazy. Just wanna make sure it's back together good, a lot to go through to take back apart and fix cause of taking shortcuts or improper install. The cool thing is my dad is retired Air Force and he knows all about safety wire how to if I need. That was a good article on that topic in motor trend. Thanks for that link.
Well again thanks for your input and I will get busy.

[LarrBeard]

When we tore down the differential for the ’48, we had an “OMG” surprise. One of the ring gear bolts had fractured and was dangling by one of the safety wires. That particular differential had only been in the truck for about three years and had been torn down and inspected after the original had thrown a scrap iron for when a bearing disintegrated.

And we used a much better grade of wire to secure the bolts when we rebuilt it.

Another catastrophe avoided.

[bmorgil]

Man you hurt that thing Larry!

[Skboyd]

Oh No!! Horror stories are beginning. The thing I wanna avoid.

[gmwillys]

The horror stories that have been told from the turbine engine shop, where the government inspectors count the turns in the safety wire to ensure the correct number of turns were made in between fasteners.

There is a guy on YouTube that restores old CAT crawlers. He has fold over locks down to a science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj_5VxbMG1w

[bmorgil]

Those are absolutely thee most serious lock tabs I have seen on a 3/8 bolt! Nothing like a Cat. I remember selling to them. The selection was always easy. They always demanded the most durable products we had. Cost was never the first question, that beating came later. The first question was always strength.

[gmwillys]

Unfortunately, those days are gone. CAT isn't the almighty earth shaker that it once was.

[bmorgil]

That truly makes me sad gm. One of the Things I used to boast about in Warranty, was how My Spicer Products were the only parts that would live on a Cat.

[Skboyd]

I use cat equipment every day at work. I agree not the same as once was.

Well my lady has come down sick, she has been put in hospital so I'm on hold with my project for a minute. Doing a little when can but most time spent at hospital. So soon as I can I will pick up where left off.

But one question. If you were putting yours back together which method would you use? I guess that should been first question.
Thanks gentlemen.

[bmorgil]

I hope your wife is OK. Best wishes there Scott.

I would use new bolts with red Loctite on clean threads. If you were a real stickler for "original", they came with "Dual Bolt" lock tabs until sometime in the late 60's to early 70's. The lock tabs work well and only take a little longer. When the bolt suppliers introduced "Patch Lock", pre-applied encapsulated thread locking compound, production speed went way up on the differential assembly line.

[Skboyd]

Thank you. May get out of ICU tomorrow. Appreciate that

On to the bolts... sounds good to me. Would I need washers to make up for lock tab thickness or Not?

[bmorgil]

Always a good idea to make sure the threads are "chased" and checked for bottoming. However, I would say it should be fine.

[Skboyd]

Sounds good. Thank you so much. When time allows I will get started.

[Skboyd]

So when setting pinion preload do you use the slinger or not? And the nut should be torqued to what lbs?

[bmorgil]

Yes, you use everything except the seal and the ring gear/carrier assembly. The nut is torqued to the minimum specification, then check the torque to rotate. If the torque to rotate is low, continue to increase the torque until you reach the maximum spec. Hopefully you will achieve the proper preload somewhere between the min and max torque on the nut.


https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2308-Ring-amp-Pinion-Shimming/page2

[Skboyd]

The manual says 200 ft lbs torque for pinion nut. Read and heard conflicting info on slinger. Using it makes sense to me. Then add or remove shims to get that rotational torque around 20 in lbs.
Had a little confusion on my info, wanted to clear the mud.
Thanks

[bmorgil]

The mud is clear! There is all kinds of info out there on the WWW that's for sure.

You can always reference the Dana Factory Manual to check. This is for the 44 models but, the process are the same. The torque specs would have to be adjusted depending on the model.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2327-5310-3-Spicer-Axle-Maintenance-Manual-Front-and-Rear-Carrier-Type

[Skboyd]

That is the manual I have on my bench.... others got pushed to floor. Lol

[Skboyd]

This axle redo is uncharted water for me, I will say this. I was pretty unsure if I could or should. Talked with a few shade tree mechanics, did a lot of homework printed out some service manuals. Plenty of research before I jumped in. That helped build my confidence I could. Sure wish I had a mentor standing over my shoulder.... well I think I got it, feel some relief I did ok. One thing for sure, a person will get plenty of practice disassembling and reassembling to get what you need. Lol. A few times I questioned myself and info I had and turned to this forum,. Read past articles on this topic and asked questions. I'm sure thankful there is a Dana expert available to answer questions.

So here is where I'm at.... pinion depth set at 2.624. Rotational torque at a hair over 20 in lbs backlash is between. 006 and .007 I think I'm satisfied with my numbers all looks and feels good. See if I can include pics of gear markings.

[Skboyd]

Thought I would share this info and pics and see what the thoughts are.

[bmorgil]

pinion depth set at 2.624. Rotational torque at a hair over 20 in lbs backlash is between. 006 and .007 I think I'm satisfied with my numbers all looks and feels good. See if I can include pics of gear markings.

Scott, Is this a new ring and pinion? Is your pinion marked with a "+ or -" number etched by hand on the end? How did you measure the pinion depth? I am thinking the coast side looks good but the drive side is too deep in the ring gear. It is very close however. It would work OK just like that. The pinion needs to move out a little to get the contact to move a little closer to the middle. The backlash looks like it likes the .007", but that might change as you move the pinion out. I am thinking about .005" or so more shim and maybe open the lash up just a touch if it doesn't move a little if you add shims to the pinion.

Not sure of your process Scott but be sure you have the preload set on the carrier when checking the pattern. Also, how are you loading the ring gear? I like to use a nylon door stop looking wedge. The pattern is easier to read with a good load on it. You could try slightly thinning your marking paint. It looks like it is sticking a little on you.

Are you using "Dummy Bearings"? Let me know your process Scott. I am always interested in how the real world gets the job done. The "beam style" axles are always picked on for their difficulty to set up. With the right tools and practice a seasoned axle tech stops hating and loves the strength a beam style axle provides. You are not far away. If you get into a situation you think you really want another set of eyes on, throw it in a pickup and bring it up to Toledo, you and I can take a look.

[gmwillys]

Dr. Dana is the best in the business. He can have you up and going in a short amount of time. If I were stumped on something engine or axle related, I wouldn't think twice with hauling my junk the 700 miles or so up to his garage for him to look at.

[bmorgil]

gm, you are way to kind!

[LarrBeard]

gm, you are way to kind!

I have seriously thought about taking the '48 over to Doc Dana's to have him do an office call on that transmission with the balky synchronizers. (It would be worth it for the smoked brisket...).

[bmorgil]

Bring it Larry! The smoker is always ready to go.

[Skboyd]

Actually a trip up there would be Great. I would love for you to look at it for me. Would definitely make me feel better. Would appreciate it so much. Oh! Did someone say smoker? Sounding better. Lol

[gmwillys]

The brisket alone is worth the trip.

[Skboyd]

Uh! I may start breaking more things to fixed and fast. Lol
I'm ready to schedule an appointment....

[Skboyd]

I meant fix and feast.... auto correct

[bmorgil]

Hahah! you guys are too much! Drop me a pm if you wish Scott. We sure can take a look if you want to bring it by.

[Skboyd]

Sure will do that... very interested

[Skboyd]

Met up with Bob to discuss my axle rebuild in person and have him check my work. Was a pleasure and very informative day. Got a couple birds with one stone. Well I got a thumbs up maybe even an A+ grade. Lol Thank you again Bob for taking time out to look this over. I feel relieved.
To start with I found a post on the forum with a link to the Dana axle service manuals. I printed that out and followed the steps. And any charts included... this was very helpful. When reassembling I started with same size shim packs and adjusted from there. Got pinion depth first. Now I did change out the ring and pinion. Not a brand new set but a used set in real good condition. This is where I had to watch pinion depth. My original pinion was marked +1 my new pinion was marked +4 so I subtracted. 003 from shim pack. Set pinion and measured depth was in spec according to manual. A little math involved. Then moved on to pinion preload, again started with same size shim pack that was removed. Checking rotational torque. First try to loose so removed .005 shim. Then was to tight, so split the difference and put in a .003 shim and achieved 20 to 21 in lbs rotation. Satisfied with pinion set moved on to carrier. Again started with same size shim pack each side. Torqued bearing cap and checked back lash with dial indicator. First try had .003, a little tight. So moved .005 shim from ring side over to bolt side. This gave me .010 backlash It felt to loose. Then I changed it to move ring gear back to pinion like .003 to tighten up and got .006 on dial indicator. Tolerance is between. 005 and .008 so being inside those numbers I checked that off list. I also check this at three equal points on the ring gear, also all good.
Then had a check up by the doctor and got a good bill of health. I know this is a quick run through of process but hopefully it will help others. Best I can say is get a copy of Dana service manual and have on bench.
Hey guys the only thing I did not get resolved with my meeting with Bob is what this brisket taste like. We gonna have to arrange a get together and get that smoker fired up. Lol. hope this helps anyone considering this type of rebuild and again a big thank you to you Bob.

[bmorgil]

You are welcome Scott! Your grade is "Outstanding"!

You had a unique experience that allowed you to restore that axle exactly as intended. In the "Old Days", Dana used Gleason gear testing machines similar to the one I have attached a pic of. Every gear set was matched and then run across this machine. The monster took a specialist who had the ability to hear types of gear noise. The ring and pinion are installed into the machine. It loads and spins the gear set at a given RPM. The operator is able to vary back lash and pinion depth in tiny increments. When the operator hears the sweet sound of a proper gear mesh, they record the distance the pinion runs best at either + or -, directly on the pinion head by hand. This allowed the gear set to be set up exactly where it was running best, in the axle on the assembly line. It required the assembly line to "hit" that number etched on the shaft within .002" to get that sweet spot. As long as backlash is is in spec and you have the pinion within .002" of that exact depth position. All this required a special gear technician. A special, very expensive machine. A pinion that had a machined surface to measure against and a lot of time, for every gear set. I don't remember exactly when, but the practice ended in the new millennium. Modern machining and photographic pattern checkers do the job all that overhead used to do, in robotic precision.

If you have a pinion that is "etched" by hand and are re-installing a pinion that has a number on it etched by hand no mater the axle model, follow the service manual chart posted here for the 44 as Scott did. You will have a trouble free reinstall if you get the pre-loads right. If you are unsure if the axle has been rebuilt before or you do not have an "etched" pinion, you will need to read the pattern.

Scott, if you could take a picture of the pinion "+/-Etching"

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/showthread.php?2327-5310-3-Spicer-Axle-Maintenance-Manual-Front-and-Rear-Carrier-Type

[Skboyd]

The +1 was the original. The +4 is the one now installed. Just a note the gear ratio is the same, the reason for switching is due to damage of pinion caused by a hot bearing. Otherwise would have just changed the bearings and the set up would have been the same, for most part.

[bmorgil]

Thanks for those pic's Scott. Only original gear sets from the "Gleason Testing Era" will have those hand "etchings".

Notice the polished machined surface where it is etched. A very expensive part of the operation. Call me Old School, but if it was my Rolls Royce, I would want my gear set run across "The Gleason". It Takes everything into consideration. A noisy gear set would jump right out. No cheating the Gleason.

[Skboyd]

Final gear markings.... the paint matches the existing wear marks real close.
A good tip Bob showed me... thin down your paint before applying. Also use a nylon wedge between ring gear and case to apply some load to gear then turn your yoke to run paint across gears. Made a difference made nice markings.

[bmorgil]

Nice! Wouldn't you love to hit that pattern the first time on all of them.

[Skboyd]

Yes I would! But you get plenty of practice getting it right when working on these.

[bmorgil]

One of the things we talked about that is worth repeating, the confusion. The chart was created in the service manual to try to clarify how to use the etchings in the field. The tendency was to look at the etching and think + means add shims and - means subtract and, oh no.

The etching indicates the Gleason machine set the dimension for best running +, (or further away from the center of the ring gear carrier), or - (which means closer to the center of the ring gear carrier). In order to achieve a + dimension you must subtract the amount indicated. This causes the dimension from the pinion to the center to increase as the pinion will drop further into the housing. So a lot of mechanics did it the wrong way!

I personally believe the misunderstanding about set up, lack of understanding of the gear pattern, the accuracy required by the etched pinion method on a new housing, and incorrect tools led to a lot of mechanics shying away from something they could have done well and made money off of. Good luck today finding a shop truly capable of doing the job correctly or, even understanding the process to do it correctly. For the time it takes to do the job, you just bolt in a complete assembly nowadays. This leaves everyone who cannot buy a new one out of luck. However, we have now seen a few people on this web site successfully get the job done correctly. The "Idea" behind a Hypoid Axle Gear Set is still the same. Proper pinion position and back lash achieves a good pattern for strength and noise. Proper bearing pre-load for good durability. Pass it on Boy's! The next generation is going to need you guy's.

[Skboyd]

As I'm continuing to put this axle back together when time permits... I just wanted to add a reminder that when installing the axle shafts use the same shim pack as when disassembled but make sure to check your end play. New bearings could be a little different size or any other adjustment could affect. And you may need to add or delete shims. My axle is only shimmied on one side. The spec is .001 to .006 end play for axle shaft. Just thought I would include this reminder. The axle is all back together and be ready to go back under the ole girl. Hopefully this weekend.

[Skboyd]

Question about brake line bleeding.
Has anybody out there used the power bleeder ? Was curious if it works? worth the investment? More trouble than worth?
I've bleed a lot of brake lines, usually need a volunteer that I volunteer. Never used this device and was curious.
Any thoughts or experiences with throw them at me. Thanks

[bmorgil]

I have and have used a Mighty Vac, A Blue Point pressurized bleeder and an assistant. I always find myself using the assistant. It is just way faster than any other way. Now having said that, on modern vehicles with Anti-Lock braking systems, a pressure or vacuum bleeder might be all that will get the air out. Further some Anti-Locks require "cycling" of the Anti-Lock motors.

The pressure bleeder is awesome if you are bleeding a room full of cars and trucks. One person can easily bleed a system, once set up in a few minutes. There is no question with a pressure bleed that the system is free of air. It is also quite effective at changing or flushing a brake system. They are large capacity. The Vacuum "Mighty Vac" is a bit cumbersome I think. I do not find it to be anywhere near as effective as a pressure bleeder. I have bled brakes by myself with one more than once. For the amount of time it takes me to get the big pressure bleeder out and set up, I usually will go for the Mighty-Vac if I am alone. If I am not alone, in my opinion nothing beats an assistant!

[gmwillys]

I use a mighty vac set that pulls a vacuum at the bleeder and since I work alone most days, it does fine in my opinion. We use a pressure bleeder for our wet brake systems at work, and it works really well, even with an ABS system.

[Skboyd]

Was curious... saw various parts suppliers sold them, around $80. Thought that was a little pricey. And at that the thing should be simple and work like a charm. My assistant only cost a couple of adult beverages........ after work done of course.
Thanks for the comments guys, like I said was just curious.

[gmwillys]

A trusty assistant would be a more precise and cheaper way to go.

[LarrBeard]

And a lot more fun when you're done. The adult beverage cuts the taste of brake fluid you always seem to get in your mouth.

[Skboyd]

Lol. Yes you are correct. Gotta wash that taste out.

Hey another question. Back to axle stuff. Is there a final torque spec for the bolts that hold the backing plate on to flange?

[bmorgil]

On some of the bolts, there isn't a torque spec in "the book". You will have to go to the SAE table for the grade and size of bolt you are using.

https://www.engineersedge.com/torque_table_sae_ftlbs.htm

[Skboyd]

Ok thanks. For some reason I thought I read or saw or heard a number for these bolts. And now I cant find or remember where I placed that or found that. And then again I may not have read it. Lol. Starting to think it's time to take a vacation.
But anyhow the axle back up under the ole girl and almost complete. Just a few small things to do. And go for a drive.

[bmorgil]

We need pictures of that first ride Scott! You did see a specification for the backing plate bolts. 25-35 ft lbs is the factory spec. (33 ft. lbs. is the SAE spec.) it is in the last pages of the "Universal Manual".

[Skboyd]

There it is! I new I saw that somewhere, looked at so many pages through the course of this I lost track. And that the numbers i had in my head just wanted to reread to verify. Thanks for reassuring me I wasn't Losing my mind. Haha. Yeah see if I can get some pics on here later.
I new I saw that page!!!

[Skboyd]

Well every thing back together brakes all adjusted greased up fluids full.... my assistant didn't clean my frig out to bad. And with all complete and a nice sunny day we said " we should take her out for a drive." Started it up, getting prepared while engine warms up.... did my walk around and "What's that leaking on the ground?" Gas! Fuel pump leaking. So no drive today. Will have to address that issue this week. May get a drive in before snow falls... saw a comment elsewhere in the forum about jeeps are never done. Apparently true.

[gmwillys]

Very true. Most of the time, just as soon as you fix one thing, something else presents itself.