Oil system restoring

[bmorgil]

First post is above.

[DENALIHD66]

1957 F-134, and wanting to fix up the oil system. Specifically, replace the oil filter canister because the mounting brackets are broken, and also install new lines. I want to change the fittings so that it'll be easier to take the canister off when changing the oil so that I can empty the canister. I do a yearly oil change so the canister ends up with some pretty bad/sludgy oil inside of it.

Here are some pictures of my current engine and what I saw online for what I'd like to do. Removing the old brass fittings was challenging, I had to use vice grips and virtually ended up rounding off the heads they were so badly worn.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11023&stc=1&d=1702939271

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11025&stc=1&d=1702939401


I can't tell if these are some kinda quick connect or hand-turn to release fittings, but this looks like the kinda fittings I want to go with at least on the canister. The hoses can be whatever as I won't really be messing with those.
https://www.jeepforum.com/attachments/image-1109127958-jpg.650446/


Hope this makes sense, I use it for work, it is not a show piece. But I'm trying to replace some things that are causing a lot of oil to end up on the ground.

[gmwillys]

Yes, it is annoying to have to suck out the last bit of oil out of the oil filter canister. Aeroquip does make quick disconnects that are small enough that they will go in line with the correct size hoses and thread.

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/threads-fittings-for-oil-fuel-crankcase-lines_topic43043.html

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/divisions/division-quick-coupling-division-page/product-list/high-flow-unvalved-hydraulic-quick-couplings-st-series?facet:-70000000000003910038111710599107326711111711210810 51101033268105118105115105111110&productBeginIndex:0&facetLimit:&orderBy:&pageView:list&minPrice:&maxPrice:&pageSize:&loadProductsList:false&

The only issue I can see is that the hose ends are flared, so a custom hose would need to be made.

[56willys]

I could be wrong but I thought I had seen someone selling a kit to use a regular spin on oil filter. I don't remember who had them and can't find it know. Maybe some one else knows.

Or just an idea, what if you drill and tap into the bottom of the canister and install a petcock, or valve of some sort. That way you could just turn it and oil would drain out the bottom.

[gmwillys]

A simple petcock would be the quick and easy way to go. The link below is for the available spin on filter kit for the L and F 134.


https://shop.willysamerica.com/Oil-Filter-Spin-On-Conversion-Base-p/24755.htm

[DENALIHD66]

So that spin on oil filter bracket would mount where the old oil canister would? Any advantages of going with this versus keeping the factory system? Better filtering? Aside from obviously easier to swap the filter out.

[bmorgil]

The spin on can be mounted anywhere. The benefit would be the ease in changing the oil. There would be little benefit in filtering unless you added more than one filter or used a larger than stock filter.

[Mike P]

My MB canister has a drain plug in the bottom of it IIRC?

Edit* Yup, found a pic.

[bmorgil]

Now that's a nice setup!

[DENALIHD66]

I think it would make the most sense to keep the canister setup, and with the new hose connections just get something that would be easier to take off the top hose, then I can tip the canister down while keeping the bottom hose connected and just drain the rest of the oil out that way.

[bmorgil]

The original owner on mine modified about everything. Here is his filter "relocation". That is the original canister mounted on the drivers fender.

[DENALIHD66]

Okay so, update on my work here. I replaced the oil canister and oil inlet/outlet hoses, but still having some issues.

Within 5 minutes of running the Jeep for the first time since the work, oil started spewing out of the top of the oil canister where the top bolt meets the cap. It was PLENTY torqued on, is it possible that I had it on too tight?

11601

Can someone explain how the oil reaches the outlet hose exactly? The inlet hose goes in on the top side of the can, then oil passes through the filter, then just goes out the bottom? Is there supposed to be much pressure in the oil canister or is the oil leaving the canister being pulled by the vacuum from the timing gear cover?

I had some issues with the hose fitting into the timing cover spot. Without removing the timing cover, the threads do not appear to be stripped, but when I try to put the hose on, only about 1 thread goes on and it starts stripping. I thought it was because of the flare on the one side of the outlet hose meeting the other flare on the timing cover preventing it from being able to be torqued on further. So I went to a hydraulic hose company and got a hose and 2 adapters made (the adapter that goes into the timing cover had a more shallow but wider flare to it, thinking I could seat it on more. This still didn't work, so I used some teflon tape to at least get it seated on. Could this be a reason the oil is not returning as quickly as it should back to the engine (Not enough vacuum pull?).

11602

I guess my last option is to pull the timing cover off and look at it more closely, maybe even have to get a replacement altogether?

If it comes to that, are there any tricks to getting that cover off, or is it straightforward when I get my hands in there?

Thanks all!

[56willys]

The bolt on the canister lid, should have a rubber grommet/washer. On my engine before I changed canister seals it had enough pressure to push oil through around the lid. Redneck oil pressure guage!

[gmwillys]

It looks like you may have the wrong thread pitch on the hose end causing you the problem, since your old hose was properly seated. I know that there have been some issues in the past with the hoses not being to print, and folks have had to have custom hoses made. There were some durability issues, but I do not recall if there were any issues with the thread. Hopefully Bmorgil or LarrBeard will chime in to refresh our memory.

The engine oil pressure pushes the oil into the top of the filter assembly, then it siphons through the filter media, then drains back down to the front cover. No vacuum or wizardry to how the oil gets cycled through, just engine oil pressure.

[bmorgil]

There is a gasket under the bolt. It is a tricky one as you can see from the copy of a post below from my thread on peeJ. The threads on the timing cover should be an inverted flare fitting. The threads on the canister should be pipe. Originally there were no adapters used. Of course someone could have changed things! The filter is a simple bleed off system. It allows a controlled Pressure leak from the block to fill the canister. It is under pressure. There is a small orifice in the cover fitting that controls the drain back speed into the block. The oil drains back slowly.


Massive Oil Leak at the Filter Canaster!


I was reading a post by LarrBeard regaling us in the tale of his beautiful truck spraying oil all over his engine compartment. I thought to myself what a terrible thing to happen to such a like new super clean engine compartment. A "baptism by fire". Then I decided to dry up my last little issues with my oil lines and change out the filter for the first time since the restore. A whopping 150 miles on it. All went smooth. I had and have had trouble with that copper gasket under the filter canister bolt. The copper requires a lot of force to make it seal and a used one will never seal well. I do not like applying a lot of torque to that bolt. I have used composites but I could not come up with one "FAST ENOUGH". Oh the cost of that!

I decided to fabricate one out of some thick soft gasket material. It didn't work. Took it for a 2 mile spin. Pumped 1/2 of a quart of oil onto the underside of the hood, all over the distributor, Alternator various other parts. I got back from the ride only to see massive oil dripping from the front of the jeep to the back. Amazing the mess that causes.

Spending the day taking things apart and cleaning it all back up. Well it needed a good "dusting off" after the winter! And of course the first show of the year not cancelled due to COVID is Tuesday! I will be taking apart and cleaning for the next 2 days. I went to the Auto parts store looking for a "Willys A-1233 Gasket" for the cover bolt. On line https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filte...ket-a1233.aspx (https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filter-cover-bolt-gasket-a1233.aspx) But I wanted it now and not copper! It is a 7/16" I.D. x 1" O.D. gasket. I found several assortments. I bought them all. Here we go again.

DA#@ IT!!!!!

[DENALIHD66]

The bolt that came with my new canister has a copper crush ring, and some sort of hard rubber or even plastic washer under that. It looks like it would be plenty fortified to prevent any leaking from coming up through. With how tight I originally had it on there, the rate it was flowing out just didn't make sense to me unless it was under extreme pressure. I got all my parts from Kaiser Willys, so I used all the adapters and hoses included.

So, for them to have sent me 2 oil outlet hoses, and neither one is going into the timing cover threads properly, I don't know. I tried screwing in several bolts of various sizes, threads, pitches, etc and all of them had the same issue where they'd only go in a little bit before stripping. Just doesn't make sense to me that nothing wants to go in there.

So let me ask this, how imperatively tight or snug does that oil outlet hose have to be in the timing cover? It sounds like its just there to direct the flow of oil back into the crankcase very low pressure. So until I find a better solution or remove the timing cover altogether, would it be OK to run in the meantime, provided I figure out the oil canister leak? (FYI This Jeep doesn't leave my farm property, it only gets used like an ATV and driven around for work and maintenance/pleasure riding.

Also, the hydraulic hose shop did provide me with an inverted flare fitting, which is the one attached to the hose in my picture. It's just that it doesn't want to thread in. It's like 1mm too thin or has slightly wider spacing or something. I couldn't imagine this being a metric size but maybe something got warped along the years?

[bmorgil]

It is under engine oil pressure. A max of around 40 PSI or so. If it is not a good tight fit it will leak. If it is not solidly attached it will blow off and dump all the oil in a minute. The copper crush washer is the correct one. It needs to be new and tight. I have had zero luck using them twice.

It sounds like something is wrong with the threads in the cover. The KW hose should thread in and seal in to the cover.

The torque spec is a "crush" on the canister bolt. You tighten it down snug, then rotate it about another 1/4 turn or so until you are sure you are crushing the copper washer. It is tight. This is the same as the copper washers used on brakes. They will seal a lot of pressure but they must be crushed slightly. Not so smashed they split, but make no mistake it is tight.

It is a Willys part number A-1233

https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filte...ket-a1233.aspx (https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filter-cover-bolt-gasket-a1233.aspx)

It is 7/16" I.D. x 1" O.D.

[DENALIHD66]

Okay I'll double check. I had it cranked down a lot so it just didn't make sense to me that oil would spill out there.

Anything I should know when removing the timing cover? Secret to getting that main pulley off or is it straightforward? I haven't looked at it closely enough to see what tools will be needed.

[bmorgil]

After my oil disaster, I always install a new copper washer, tighten it down and fie it up. If it leaks I tighten till it stops.

A standard Harmonic Balancer puller will take the balancer off. There is one "trick" to getting the front Crank Seal lined up when you reinstall. Be sure you install the Harmonic Balancer, with an install tool, before you tighten the attaching bolts. Leave them very loose until the balancer is on and is centering itself. Then tighten the cover down alternating the pastern and tightening in a few increments. Use a little dab of silicone on the corners.

[DENALIHD66]

After my oil disaster, I always install a new copper washer, tighten it down and fie it up. If it leaks I tighten till it stops.

A standard Harmonic Balancer puller will take the balancer off. There is one "trick" to getting the front Crank Seal lined up when you reinstall. Be sure you install the Harmonic Balancer, with an install tool, before you tighten the attaching bolts. Leave them very loose until the balancer is on and is centering itself. Then tighten the cover down alternating the pastern and tightening in a few increments. Use a little dab of silicone on the corners.

Hmm that's something I'm not familiar with at all. Maybe I can just try to get a closer look at the threads and match it up with a bolt first and see if I can't make the existing threads work a bit better.

[bmorgil]

I think it is a 1/4" flare fitting. That means it would be a 7/16" x 20 thread pitch. Can you get a close up picture?

[DENALIHD66]

I'll try this weekend. However if the 2 oil outlet hoses from Kaiser Willys and the adapter I had all do the same thing, and if they are all 7/16"x20 threads, then the issue is the timing cover threads. I don't recall any difficulty or anything out of the ordinary when taking the oil hose out, but it was decades old, if not the original so it was well seated and sealed of course.

[DENALIHD66]

I'm still trying to understand where the oil drains out. Should there be this much oil left in the canister? It's been sitting for 2 weeks.

Also, is it possible that if the oil pan was not put on tightly enough that the oil canister was building up too much pressure because the crankcase was not pulling any vacuum?

11664

[bmorgil]

The oil drains out the bottom through the hose and a restriction in the block and cover. The oil should drain slowly until there is a small amount left in the can. It looks like something is blocked up. The oil system is a closed pressurized circuit. It is under engine oil pressure. There is no vacuum, only pressure. The canister cannot build pressure. It will be the same pressure as the rest of the engine as indicated on the oil pressure gauge. If the gauge says 40psi, there is 40 psi in the can.

The gasket on top of the can needs to be tight and new. If the supply hose from the can to the cover is blocked or the control orifice is plugged at the block, the oil will not be filtered or returned to the engine. Also the timing chain will be lacking pressurized oil lubrication.

[DENALIHD66]

There is absolutely no drain in the bottom of the canister. The bottom hole goes straight through to the top of the canister bolt. On the side of the middle of the bolt housing, I found a very small pinhole where is the only possible place that oil can drain. I literally emptied out the full canister, sprayed in some carb cleaner, and not a drop came out the bottom. So the oil really just goes back through this tiny pinhole and nothing else??

11665

[bmorgil]

That's it D-66', the oil is forced under pressure through the filter and out the little hole down the hollow bolt and out the bottom. Don't let that little hole fool you, under pressure the oil is going through there at several gallons per minute. The size of that hole is critical to oil pressure control. That type of canister filter was around for a while in the 40's and 50's. Many vehicles used that canister type. My 59' Chevy had one!

Normally when you pull the filter from a just run engine, it is fairly saturated with oil. The oil that is left in the can when the engine is warm, is a few inches. Its a mess there's no way around it! Some rags around and a coffee can to transfer the filter immediately to. I use the trusty veterinary syringe from the local livestock store, and a small piece of hose slipped over the needle end. Suck out all the remaining oil you can. From there its a paper towel wipe fest until its clean. Its not a big problem, just the way they are. As long as the oil is draining back to the timing cover you are all set. There is always some left in the bottom.

I almost forgot to address gm's point about the hoses. The hose issues were related to the crimps and the hose, and there was a lot of them. They leaked and even came apart. I have some pictures of mine somewhere. There was a split from the crimp to about one inch long on the hose. I think LarrBeard had some custom made.

[gmwillys]

On a bit of worthless knowledge tid bit, there was/still is a toilet paper oil filter kit out there. You have to use John Wayne toilet paper, but from some testing that I read, they were pretty efficient.... depending on what you read. I'll stick with the canister filter.

https://www.toiletpaperoilfilter.com/catalog/item/9025533/10279878.htm

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/frantz-toilet-paper-oil-filter-anybody-use-them.151919/

[bmorgil]

I am out on that one gm! I have seen toilet paper dissolve into a paste. I would be extremely concerned the volume of oil through the motor might be compromised. And then if/when that paper starts to come apart... Now that is a nice kit. Perhaps find a Wicks element that would fit in?

[DENALIHD66]

That's it D-66', the oil is forced under pressure through the filter and out the little hole down the hollow bolt and out the bottom. Don't let that little hole fool you, under pressure the oil is going through there at several gallons per minute. The size of that hole is critical to oil pressure control. That type of canister filter was around for a while in the 40's and 50's. Many vehicles used that canister type. My 59' Chevy had one!

Normally when you pull the filter from a just run engine, it is fairly saturated with oil. The oil that is left in the can when the engine is warm, is a few inches. Its a mess there's no way around it! Some rags around and a coffee can to transfer the filter immediately to. I use the trusty veterinary syringe from the local livestock store, and a small piece of hose slipped over the needle end. Suck out all the remaining oil you can. From there its a paper towel wipe fest until its clean. Its not a big problem, just the way they are. As long as the oil is draining back to the timing cover you are all set. There is always some left in the bottom.

I almost forgot to address gm's point about the hoses. The hose issues were related to the crimps and the hose, and there was a lot of them. They leaked and even came apart. I have some pictures of mine somewhere. There was a split from the crimp to about one inch long on the hose. I think LarrBeard had some custom made.


Okay so I figured that was it. Yes I was always aware there was leftover oil in the canister, but I never knew the little hole is where it drained out from.

The other issue I continue to face is that the oil outlet hose fitting isn't fitting into the timing cover threads. Its like its a fraction of a size too small, but the thread count seems to be equivalent. When I just insert the fitting into the timing cover section, it can bypass 3 threads before it even meets resistance. One turn and its connected by a thread, attempt to keep tightening and off it comes again. I am thinking about just buying a straight through flare fitting with a slightly larger thread size to see if I can't just get it to go in. Even if I cross thread it, that's fine because I don't ever plan on taking it out again at this connection point.

[DENALIHD66]

Welp. Finally figured out. The thread port on the timing gear cover is stripped/stretched. As if someone at some point point in too large of an adapter. I can see a small crack in now too. I'm debating to have a machine shop see if they can fix it, or if it would be worthwhile to replace the cover and gasket itself.

I'm just a bit concerned with removing the cover, someone here mentioned that a harmonic balancer will be needed? I neither own one nor know how to use one.

It looks like the cover can be removed from the top of the engine bay without having to remove the grille, yes?

[bmorgil]

What I mentioned was the "Harmonic Balancer Puller" The engine crankshaft pulley, is also called the Harmonic balancer, Harmonic Dampener, Harmonic Pulley, Crankshaft Dampener and many other names. In the 134's it is called the crankshaft pulley, my bad. Sorry for the confusion I introduced, I have been around too long! The Crankshaft Pulley as it is officially called, usually will require a puller. I don't think you will have any trouble with that. The front cover needs to be centered on the front oil seal. So you need to loosen the pan and put the cover on first so the seal can center. The best way to do this is to put the oil pan on last. To perform this pull the crankshaft pulley, remove the water pump etc. and the front cover and oil pan. Then reinstall a new seal in the cover and install the cover loosely. Install the Crankshaft Pulley. Square up the bottom of the cover so it will match the oil pan and tighten the cover. Then install a new pan gasket and reinstall the pan. I have seen some successful attempts at just dropping the oil pan down and not completely removing it. Sometimes you will get away with this, usually on a fairly new engine or rebuild. Typically the oil pan gasket will break apart when you loosen and drop the pan down. You don't need to remove the grill, though the radiator might crowd your style a bit. Removing the radiator will give you sufficient room.

The fitting in the front cover can be repaired by a competent shop. You could also just get a used one. KW has some.

https://www.kaiserwillys.com/products/take-out-front-timing-cover-gear-driven-fits-46-71-jeep-willys-with-4-134-engine/

[DENALIHD66]

So I recently cleaned and replaced the oil pan gasket, so that shouldn't be a problem if need be. I already have the radiator out and fan removed etc. It doesn't look like I'll need to remove the water pump, and I replaced/sealed that just a couple years ago anyway and I'd rather not tear that off again.

When I remove the crankshaft pulley, does it need to go back on in a specific orientation? I can try to make some marks of how it sits before I remove it, but if it doesn't matter I wont bother. Might be a little easier to jack up the front end and let the axle droop down for some extra clearance. I'll start working on it this weekend and see how it goes.

[LarrBeard]

"When I remove the crankshaft pulley, does it need to go back on in a specific orientation"

There is a Woodruff key that lines it up, it will only go back one way.

[bmorgil]

You are correct no need to pull the water pump. If its recently replaced and all sealed up, leave it alone.

[DENALIHD66]

So I took a look at it this weekend. I loosened the timing cover fasteners. It seems the nut holding on the crankshaft pulled is 1 3/8". I tried to loosen it with a 3/4" socket wrench but all it did was spin the pulley. Will my impact bring it right out or will it just spin the crank? I was hesitant to try it without asking here first.

Also, do you guys seal the oil drain pain or timing gear covers? If so, what are you sealing them with, and which side(s) are you sealing? When I reinstalled my oil pan I simply installed it with the new cork gasket and no sealing. I fully cleaned up both contact edges to make sure it was a nice snug fit.

Another issue I seem to have is my front diff is leaking (at the drain hole) and also the back where it meets the driveshaft. As far as I know, it has NEVER been serviced in the Jeep's lifetime. I'm also seeing drips coming from the transmission too. It was just never serviced over the years and used for farm work so I'm trying to keep it drivable; it doesn't need to look in vintage shape or anything.

[bmorgil]

The impact gun will take it right off. You need to put it in 3rd gear and block the wheels when you torque it back up.

I do not use sealer, except where the gaskets meet each other. Some guys like it, some don't. You need to put a dab of silicone in the "corners" where the gaskets meet. On valve covers I use High-Tack (from Permatex) on the valve cover side. A perfectly clean surface is always a good idea!

The leak at the driveshaft sounds like the pinion seal. The drain plug leak is probably a worn out plug, or its loose. It is a pipe thread.

Getting a vintage jeep to not drip on the floor is a dream we all have. I have read that some actually achieve it.

[56willys]

Getting a vintage jeep to not drip on the floor is a dream we all have. I have read that some actually achieve it.

Ah yes, that dream I have dreamt so often only to awake and realize there's a gallon of oil on the garage floor!!!!

Some however, a precious few, have achieved the no leak willys, and gosh are they lucky!!

[gmwillys]

As good as the Heep is, (in my opinion) she still likes to mark her spot when the transmission and transfer case are filled to the proper level. Now that she is at a happier level of oil capacity, it only leaves a very small drip if driven or parked with a nose down attitude. Oil is cheap for the little that it drips unless I find that I need to tear it apart for something major.

[LarrBeard]

" Getting a vintage jeep to not drip on the floor is a dream we all have. I have read that some actually achieve it."

If it doesn't drip at all - it is probably empty. I have two sheets of cardboard under the '48 that I change every couple of years -- they make good fire starters after that long.

[bmorgil]

"If it doesn't drip at all - it is probably empty.

Hahahah! How true Larry!

[gmwillys]

One of my favorite t shirts in the closet;

https://www.offroad-outfitter.com/collections/mens/products/shitbox-3-16-t-shirt

[bmorgil]

Just ordered one.