Oil system restoring

[bmorgil]

The hose should be a flare fitting on the timing cover and a pipe fitting on the canister. Hopefully no one has changed things! The hose issues were related to the crimps on the hose. They leaked and even came apart.

I think gm has you covered, it must be the wrong thread. It sounds like you are trying to put a pipe fitting into the Flare at the cover. The gasket at the top bolt is a special one. I had a similar issue when I tried to use a cheap washer gasket under the bolt. Didn't work sprayed oil everywhere!

[DENALIHD66]

1957 F-134, and wanting to fix up the oil system. Specifically, replace the oil filter canister because the mounting brackets are broken, and also install new lines. I want to change the fittings so that it'll be easier to take the canister off when changing the oil so that I can empty the canister. I do a yearly oil change so the canister ends up with some pretty bad/sludgy oil inside of it.

Here are some pictures of my current engine and what I saw online for what I'd like to do. Removing the old brass fittings was challenging, I had to use vice grips and virtually ended up rounding off the heads they were so badly worn.

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11023&stc=1&d=1702939271

https://willysjeepforum.kaiserwillys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11025&stc=1&d=1702939401


I can't tell if these are some kinda quick connect or hand-turn to release fittings, but this looks like the kinda fittings I want to go with at least on the canister. The hoses can be whatever as I won't really be messing with those.
https://www.jeepforum.com/attachments/image-1109127958-jpg.650446/


Hope this makes sense, I use it for work, it is not a show piece. But I'm trying to replace some things that are causing a lot of oil to end up on the ground.

[gmwillys]

Yes, it is annoying to have to suck out the last bit of oil out of the oil filter canister. Aeroquip does make quick disconnects that are small enough that they will go in line with the correct size hoses and thread.

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/threads-fittings-for-oil-fuel-crankcase-lines_topic43043.html

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/divisions/division-quick-coupling-division-page/product-list/high-flow-unvalved-hydraulic-quick-couplings-st-series?facet:-70000000000003910038111710599107326711111711210810 51101033268105118105115105111110&productBeginIndex:0&facetLimit:&orderBy:&pageView:list&minPrice:&maxPrice:&pageSize:&loadProductsList:false&

The only issue I can see is that the hose ends are flared, so a custom hose would need to be made.

[56willys]

I could be wrong but I thought I had seen someone selling a kit to use a regular spin on oil filter. I don't remember who had them and can't find it know. Maybe some one else knows.

Or just an idea, what if you drill and tap into the bottom of the canister and install a petcock, or valve of some sort. That way you could just turn it and oil would drain out the bottom.

[gmwillys]

A simple petcock would be the quick and easy way to go. The link below is for the available spin on filter kit for the L and F 134.


https://shop.willysamerica.com/Oil-Filter-Spin-On-Conversion-Base-p/24755.htm

[DENALIHD66]

So that spin on oil filter bracket would mount where the old oil canister would? Any advantages of going with this versus keeping the factory system? Better filtering? Aside from obviously easier to swap the filter out.

[bmorgil]

The spin on can be mounted anywhere. The benefit would be the ease in changing the oil. There would be little benefit in filtering unless you added more than one filter or used a larger than stock filter.

[Mike P]

My MB canister has a drain plug in the bottom of it IIRC?

Edit* Yup, found a pic.

[bmorgil]

Now that's a nice setup!

[DENALIHD66]

I think it would make the most sense to keep the canister setup, and with the new hose connections just get something that would be easier to take off the top hose, then I can tip the canister down while keeping the bottom hose connected and just drain the rest of the oil out that way.

[bmorgil]

The original owner on mine modified about everything. Here is his filter "relocation". That is the original canister mounted on the drivers fender.

[DENALIHD66]

Okay so, update on my work here. I replaced the oil canister and oil inlet/outlet hoses, but still having some issues.

Within 5 minutes of running the Jeep for the first time since the work, oil started spewing out of the top of the oil canister where the top bolt meets the cap. It was PLENTY torqued on, is it possible that I had it on too tight?

11601

Can someone explain how the oil reaches the outlet hose exactly? The inlet hose goes in on the top side of the can, then oil passes through the filter, then just goes out the bottom? Is there supposed to be much pressure in the oil canister or is the oil leaving the canister being pulled by the vacuum from the timing gear cover?

I had some issues with the hose fitting into the timing cover spot. Without removing the timing cover, the threads do not appear to be stripped, but when I try to put the hose on, only about 1 thread goes on and it starts stripping. I thought it was because of the flare on the one side of the outlet hose meeting the other flare on the timing cover preventing it from being able to be torqued on further. So I went to a hydraulic hose company and got a hose and 2 adapters made (the adapter that goes into the timing cover had a more shallow but wider flare to it, thinking I could seat it on more. This still didn't work, so I used some teflon tape to at least get it seated on. Could this be a reason the oil is not returning as quickly as it should back to the engine (Not enough vacuum pull?).

11602

I guess my last option is to pull the timing cover off and look at it more closely, maybe even have to get a replacement altogether?

If it comes to that, are there any tricks to getting that cover off, or is it straightforward when I get my hands in there?

Thanks all!

[56willys]

The bolt on the canister lid, should have a rubber grommet/washer. On my engine before I changed canister seals it had enough pressure to push oil through around the lid. Redneck oil pressure guage!

[gmwillys]

It looks like you may have the wrong thread pitch on the hose end causing you the problem, since your old hose was properly seated. I know that there have been some issues in the past with the hoses not being to print, and folks have had to have custom hoses made. There were some durability issues, but I do not recall if there were any issues with the thread. Hopefully Bmorgil or LarrBeard will chime in to refresh our memory.

The engine oil pressure pushes the oil into the top of the filter assembly, then it siphons through the filter media, then drains back down to the front cover. No vacuum or wizardry to how the oil gets cycled through, just engine oil pressure.

[bmorgil]

There is a gasket under the bolt. It is a tricky one as you can see from the copy of a post below from my thread on peeJ. The threads on the timing cover should be an inverted flare fitting. The threads on the canister should be pipe. Originally there were no adapters used. Of course someone could have changed things! The filter is a simple bleed off system. It allows a controlled Pressure leak from the block to fill the canister. It is under pressure. There is a small orifice in the cover fitting that controls the drain back speed into the block. The oil drains back slowly.


Massive Oil Leak at the Filter Canaster!


I was reading a post by LarrBeard regaling us in the tale of his beautiful truck spraying oil all over his engine compartment. I thought to myself what a terrible thing to happen to such a like new super clean engine compartment. A "baptism by fire". Then I decided to dry up my last little issues with my oil lines and change out the filter for the first time since the restore. A whopping 150 miles on it. All went smooth. I had and have had trouble with that copper gasket under the filter canister bolt. The copper requires a lot of force to make it seal and a used one will never seal well. I do not like applying a lot of torque to that bolt. I have used composites but I could not come up with one "FAST ENOUGH". Oh the cost of that!

I decided to fabricate one out of some thick soft gasket material. It didn't work. Took it for a 2 mile spin. Pumped 1/2 of a quart of oil onto the underside of the hood, all over the distributor, Alternator various other parts. I got back from the ride only to see massive oil dripping from the front of the jeep to the back. Amazing the mess that causes.

Spending the day taking things apart and cleaning it all back up. Well it needed a good "dusting off" after the winter! And of course the first show of the year not cancelled due to COVID is Tuesday! I will be taking apart and cleaning for the next 2 days. I went to the Auto parts store looking for a "Willys A-1233 Gasket" for the cover bolt. On line https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filte...ket-a1233.aspx (https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filter-cover-bolt-gasket-a1233.aspx) But I wanted it now and not copper! It is a 7/16" I.D. x 1" O.D. gasket. I found several assortments. I bought them all. Here we go again.

DA#@ IT!!!!!

[DENALIHD66]

The bolt that came with my new canister has a copper crush ring, and some sort of hard rubber or even plastic washer under that. It looks like it would be plenty fortified to prevent any leaking from coming up through. With how tight I originally had it on there, the rate it was flowing out just didn't make sense to me unless it was under extreme pressure. I got all my parts from Kaiser Willys, so I used all the adapters and hoses included.

So, for them to have sent me 2 oil outlet hoses, and neither one is going into the timing cover threads properly, I don't know. I tried screwing in several bolts of various sizes, threads, pitches, etc and all of them had the same issue where they'd only go in a little bit before stripping. Just doesn't make sense to me that nothing wants to go in there.

So let me ask this, how imperatively tight or snug does that oil outlet hose have to be in the timing cover? It sounds like its just there to direct the flow of oil back into the crankcase very low pressure. So until I find a better solution or remove the timing cover altogether, would it be OK to run in the meantime, provided I figure out the oil canister leak? (FYI This Jeep doesn't leave my farm property, it only gets used like an ATV and driven around for work and maintenance/pleasure riding.

Also, the hydraulic hose shop did provide me with an inverted flare fitting, which is the one attached to the hose in my picture. It's just that it doesn't want to thread in. It's like 1mm too thin or has slightly wider spacing or something. I couldn't imagine this being a metric size but maybe something got warped along the years?

[bmorgil]

It is under engine oil pressure. A max of around 40 PSI or so. If it is not a good tight fit it will leak. If it is not solidly attached it will blow off and dump all the oil in a minute. The copper crush washer is the correct one. It needs to be new and tight. I have had zero luck using them twice.

It sounds like something is wrong with the threads in the cover. The KW hose should thread in and seal in to the cover.

The torque spec is a "crush" on the canister bolt. You tighten it down snug, then rotate it about another 1/4 turn or so until you are sure you are crushing the copper washer. It is tight. This is the same as the copper washers used on brakes. They will seal a lot of pressure but they must be crushed slightly. Not so smashed they split, but make no mistake it is tight.

It is a Willys part number A-1233

https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filte...ket-a1233.aspx (https://www.rfjp.com/p-131-oil-filter-cover-bolt-gasket-a1233.aspx)

It is 7/16" I.D. x 1" O.D.

[DENALIHD66]

Okay I'll double check. I had it cranked down a lot so it just didn't make sense to me that oil would spill out there.

Anything I should know when removing the timing cover? Secret to getting that main pulley off or is it straightforward? I haven't looked at it closely enough to see what tools will be needed.

[bmorgil]

After my oil disaster, I always install a new copper washer, tighten it down and fie it up. If it leaks I tighten till it stops.

A standard Harmonic Balancer puller will take the balancer off. There is one "trick" to getting the front Crank Seal lined up when you reinstall. Be sure you install the Harmonic Balancer, with an install tool, before you tighten the attaching bolts. Leave them very loose until the balancer is on and is centering itself. Then tighten the cover down alternating the pastern and tightening in a few increments. Use a little dab of silicone on the corners.

[DENALIHD66]

After my oil disaster, I always install a new copper washer, tighten it down and fie it up. If it leaks I tighten till it stops.

A standard Harmonic Balancer puller will take the balancer off. There is one "trick" to getting the front Crank Seal lined up when you reinstall. Be sure you install the Harmonic Balancer, with an install tool, before you tighten the attaching bolts. Leave them very loose until the balancer is on and is centering itself. Then tighten the cover down alternating the pastern and tightening in a few increments. Use a little dab of silicone on the corners.

Hmm that's something I'm not familiar with at all. Maybe I can just try to get a closer look at the threads and match it up with a bolt first and see if I can't make the existing threads work a bit better.

[bmorgil]

I think it is a 1/4" flare fitting. That means it would be a 7/16" x 20 thread pitch. Can you get a close up picture?

[DENALIHD66]

I'll try this weekend. However if the 2 oil outlet hoses from Kaiser Willys and the adapter I had all do the same thing, and if they are all 7/16"x20 threads, then the issue is the timing cover threads. I don't recall any difficulty or anything out of the ordinary when taking the oil hose out, but it was decades old, if not the original so it was well seated and sealed of course.

[DENALIHD66]

I'm still trying to understand where the oil drains out. Should there be this much oil left in the canister? It's been sitting for 2 weeks.

Also, is it possible that if the oil pan was not put on tightly enough that the oil canister was building up too much pressure because the crankcase was not pulling any vacuum?

11664

[bmorgil]

The oil drains out the bottom through the hose and a restriction in the block and cover. The oil should drain slowly until there is a small amount left in the can. It looks like something is blocked up. The oil system is a closed pressurized circuit. It is under engine oil pressure. There is no vacuum, only pressure. The canister cannot build pressure. It will be the same pressure as the rest of the engine as indicated on the oil pressure gauge. If the gauge says 40psi, there is 40 psi in the can.

The gasket on top of the can needs to be tight and new. If the supply hose from the can to the cover is blocked or the control orifice is plugged at the block, the oil will not be filtered or returned to the engine. Also the timing chain will be lacking pressurized oil lubrication.