Welders and Welding

[test1328]

I've been following the other thread by 56Willys where the discussion of welding and welders has come up. Rather than hijack that thread, I figured I'd start one over here specifically on welders and ask my questions.

As I stated in my 61CJ5 thread, I'm not a welder. I've never welded anything. However, the more I get into this project, the more I realize that having this capability will be important, especially when attempting to fix any of the body components. But, I suppose, it may also come in handy on occasion to be able to weld other structural components. So, I've been trying to educate myself on welding and welders, in general, and I've started looking to purchase a welder. For my purposes, it seems that I could probably get by with a pretty basic fluxcore welder. However, having MIG capability to weld with gas seems like might be a nice way to go. And, of course, others have mentioned that having TIG capability would be great for welding thin sheet metal products like body parts since they say that works best. I know I won't be doing a ton of welding, so I'm not looking to buy a high end unit. It seems that the welders at Harbor Freight might work just fine for my intended uses. But, I can't decide which one to get. Having the ability to use 110V vs 220V sounds good, but I think being able to use either might be useful. I've been looking at these different welders and wanted to get your opinions on what you think might be the best to get. They are only about $100 difference, so I don't think the cost really should factor into this decision much.

https://www.harborfreight.com/mig-170-professional-welder-with-120240v-input-57864.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/mig-140-professional-welder-with-120v-input-57863.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/unlimited-140-professional-multi-process-welder-with-120v-input-58828.html

I'd welcome any comments or insight from those of you with experience in this area. Thanks for your help.

Paul

[bmorgil]

I have an old one of Lincoln's smallest 110v MIG's. It works really well on thin steel. I had a "cheap" one similar to the Harbor Freight. I had a lot of trouble with it. I finally ended up buying a brand name. I am sure the "Welders" on the site here will be able to help you. My 2 cents would be to buy a brand name. Parts, help and consumables will be much easier to get. A good brand name welder will last you a lifetime.

[gmwillys]

I have a nearly 30 year old Miller 135 110 v welder that has been the workhorse of my operation since it was new. It has tasked to weld more than its weight class, plus I have burned wire up and to the duty cycle to where it shut down more than I care to admit. My new unit is a Eastwood 250i multi process MIG/DC TIG/Stick welder. As I said in another post, I haven't sat down and dialed it in yet, so I do not have an opinion on if it is as good as the reviews say it is.

https://www.eastwood.com/welders.html

In my opinion, I would go for the MIG 170 110v/220v unit. I wouldn't jump into a multi process unit off the jump being that it is only a 110v unit in my opinion. The ability to start off with flux core, then as you progress, you can buy a regulator, solid wire, and a bottle to add gas. The link below is of some of the practical reviews of welders done by Project Farm. On one of his videos, he bought one off of Amazon, and it went toe to toe with some of the name brand units. If memory serves me it was called Yess welder.

https://www.projectfarmreviews.com/posts/welder-mig

[Catlewis]

I have a Lincoln Pro Mig 140 which is a 120volt (typical 20amp outlet). It accommodates both fluxcore or solid wire. Having welded with both, I highly recommend solid wire with a shielding gas. My opinion the only reason fluxcore is appealing to anyone is strictly limited to cost / price. The initial added expense of setting up a mig for solid wire / shielding gas is spendy. Most small migs are sold without the shielding gas tank which is expensive. Sometimes these tanks will come up for sale on places like FB market place or Craigslist however be cautious. Some gas suppliers only exchange their own tanks. Meaning the initial tank purchase starts with them. Just make certain you understand how your local supplier handles that type of situation before purchasing tanks on FB or CL. Used welders are another option. My preference would be to stick with either Miller or Lincoln but that's just my opinion. Hobart makes some good welders also, I've just never used any of them. Repair / replacement / service / maintenance parts are going to be easier to find and likely less expensive than some of the hobo freight models.

[bmorgil]

I have the early version of the Lincoln Handy Mig 120v. It will do flux core or solid wire. I don't know if they sell this particular one anymore. It was under $500. The Lincoln 140 Pro is very nice.

I was able to lease a small bottle with an Argon mix for pretty cheap, from the local AirGas dealer. I think it was like $17 a year plus refills. We have a few different welding machines now and I have since adapted to a slightly larger bottle. Prior to my son requiring a lot more welding, the small bottle was plenty for hobby stuff.

This is a newer version of the Handy Mig. https://www.eastwood.com/handy-mig-core-welder-lew-k4084-1.html

I still can't get the pictures straight.

[test1328]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I still have a lot to think about and learn!

[51 CJ3]

I’m just a novice, self taught welder. Personally, I find flux core messy. More splatter and residue around the weld than when using solid wire with gas. It’s handy when the bottle is empty or you just don’t want to have to carry the bottle somewhere. I won’t hardly look at it when I am in my own shop. TIG is slower but more flexible when set up correctly. It always seems to take a different tungsten, holder and/or cup than what came with the welder which increases the costs.

I was making considerably more money when I was buying tools. The first welder I bought was a Miller Syncrowave 210 for the AC and DC tig capability but it also stick welds and will run a spool gun if desired. I went with it thinking I would be welding aluminum. The next year I went back and got a Miller Multimatic 215. I have been using it’s mig capabilities for everything steel. It will also DC tig and stick weld. Both are inverter machines and will run on 120 and 240 (through interchangeable plugs). I mostly just use them on 120. 240 is only needed to weld the maximum thickness. I went to Airgas and bought a bottle for each and just go there to swap bottles when needed. No hassle, no rental fees.

I have a buddy with a Hobart mig welder. It’s a pretty good machine. I used it quite a bit before buying my own. It’s not an inverter machine so it is a good bit heavier than my Multimatic. That’s only important if it has to be moved from one site to another or hauled up a scaffold a lot.

[gmwillys]

You bring up some good thinking points and tips CJ3.

[test1328]

Yes, thanks for your comments, CJ3. Good points and I appreciate the additional input.

[51 CJ3]

I remembered a couple more pluses to tig. It is possible to weld without filler metal. I needed to repair a shop door latch by capping a 3/8” rod with a washer yesterday. I used the tig torch heat up the rod then melted the inside diameter of the washer to it. Which brings me to the other plus. Tig allows better welding of 2 different thicknesses with the ability to focus heat on the thicker piece without having to add filler until the metal is actually ready to weld. Previous attempts at welding the washer to the rod were made with mig and I never got the rod hot enough for the weld to stick good and I always got a big glob when trying. It would last a while but this was the third time I welded it. Time will tell but it looks like a much better weld.

Oxy-acetylene will do pretty much everything tig will do. I have a buddy who even welds aluminum using oxy. My hands aren’t that steady. A bigger area gets heated and it will cut with a simple swap of the torch head.

[gmwillys]

The TIG does shine when it comes to tacking two different thicknesses together. The pinpoint accuracy of the tungsten electrode does make a world of difference. Oxy acetylene was how we learned how to weld in school. The classroom only had one MIG, and one TIG machine. You had to be a real teacher's pet to even get close to either. After the Oxy, we could then hop on the old Lincoln AC/DC tombstones. The only caveat was that all stick welding has to be done over head. The old crusty drill sergeant shop teacher didn't allow beanies or gloves because only girls wear gloves and bonnets, (coming from a guy who cut off four fingers in a radial arm safe) so overhead was fun to master welding through the pain of burns. To this day, I only use one glove as a heat shield and helps to slide better on the metal as a brace. I've fixed tons of copper radiators by brazing holes shut when I ran a lot of derby cars. Aluminum is no sweat either, except for the heat dissipates so much quicker than with any other materials.

[bmorgil]

I purchased a small Miller TIG machine a while back for my son. He was welding up a lot of exhaust systems. The TIG puts down the best welds with the best results no doubt, hands down. It is also the most expensive, and hardest to master. I was never able to master it. You can do anything with a TIG. I did learn that to do Aluminum, it takes a LOT of heat. The small machine I have will only weld thin Aluminum.

I do use the Lincoln Hobby MIG a lot. It is a nice little machine if you just need to weld up some thin steel, or even do a little bigger job if you spend a little time with it. It is small, goes anyplace there is a 110V power source.

[51 CJ3]

All we had was a stick welder when I took high school shop. College introduced me to oxy for welding but I dropped the course. Not a wire feed welder in sight back there. I don’t even remember seeing them in the text book. It had been more than 20 years since I tried welding when I bought the Syncrowave and my buddy introduced me to his Hobart.

I haven’t figured out stainless. About halfway there with aluminum. I don’t move fast enough to weld thin material with the tig. Practice would help a lot but it seems like the only time I power up a welder is when I actually need to use one. OJT at its best!

[bmorgil]

.... Practice would help a lot but it seems like the only time I power up a welder is when I actually need to use one. OJT at its best!

Man you hit it right there Jeff! It is practice, success and failure, that really makes you good at it. I also always seem to be practicing on the job! Unless you do it for a living, it is hard to get the practice in. Especially with all the different weld combinations you run into. I am so happy when it sticks together and resembles a weld.

[gmwillys]

As an experiment, I found that you can weld stainless steel pipe to mild steel. The weld isn't pretty, but it held up to the abuse.

[bmorgil]

Classic gm. Just plain classic! Lets go get that trophy.

[Catlewis]

I never had any problems welding stainless (possibly never ran into an alloy that creates problems)??? The most sporadic success rate and disappointment experiences I've had when welding all occurred when attempting to weld cast iron. I think success or failure has a lot to do with the quality of the cast iron. For example an several occasions people have brought me cast iron kettles to repair. These are usually turn of the century kettles that were once used domestically as a 'butchering kettle", and then later converted to a flower pot which included drilling holes into the bottom of the kettle. People are now trying to save these old iron pots and the "go to repair" is welding the holes shut. I'm finding a dramatic variance in cast iron. Some weld like steel, some weld like holding a bic lighter up to a styrene cup, they just melt. Most common success combination is preheating and using a nickel rod.

[51 CJ3]

The alloy of the stainless makes a huge difference. So does the cleanliness of the metal. I was practicing on stainless hose clamps before trying to tig weld a stainless exhaust. The exhaust broke again the first time the engine ran. I gave up and paid $800 for a new part. I found out later that the stainless in the clamps isn’t considered weldable and repairing a used stainless exhaust also requires shielding gas inside the tube.

[56willys]

Throwing something into the mix here. Does anyone have experience brazing a radiator? The top bracket broke of my radiator. It has been that way since day one and has never leaked so the rad
is okay, just needs reattached. I already got some fluxed brazing rod and map gas. Just looking for pointers, the more advice now the lower the chance of burning through. I'm not in a huge hurry to get this done. Since my jeep isn't drivable, just figured ya'll are already discussing welding stuff. Hopefully I can get some tips. Thanks guys!

[bmorgil]

56', radiators are soldered. You should use a 50/50 acid core solder. The brass/copper is so thin on a radiator, you will blow right through if you use too much temperature. Brazing will need too much heat. Solder is the "hot" ticket to prevent burn through and melt down. The top strap can be attached with Silver Solder for extra strength. That takes a little more heat and you need to be careful of the brass tank. Unless there is a lot of stress on the strap, I would use the 50/50 acid core solder.

[gmwillys]

On my old derby car radiators, I would fix cracks or all out holes by brazing. My favorite fit all radiator was twisted 4" bottom corner to top corner. It took a hit to where the top nipple was pushed through the front of the tank. It took some doing, but I saved the nipple and fixed the hole in the front of the tank and the cracking around the back side. After squaring the tanks back out in a press, I pressure tested it to 15 psi, and didn't have any leaks. In the case of the side mounts, I would follow Bmorgil's suggestion and soldier the straps back into place with the 50/50 acid core. As far as stainless, you do have to pump argon in the tubing to be successful. I just did a quick and dirty on my headers since I was given the material the night before the run. I wasn't 100 percent certain that the MIG would penetrate enough to be good. The photo above was the prior to the third run with them installed. The heavy wall pipe didn't change color much with the heat cycles.

[Catlewis]

Should've clarified on the stainless welding it depends on what you're trying to achieve. If you're building a project and the metal just happens to be stainless, you can weld it with a variety of methods and materials. For example, most stainless can be welded to typical steel with the same mig wire and shielding gas used for non-stainless materials......... However, be aware the weld area will rust. If you want to join stainless to stainless and retain the stainless quality of corrosion resistance it will require stainless wire same alloy as what you're welding. With the hassle associated with changing mig wire, I avoid that process by keeping some stainless electrodes for the stick welder and use it on those occasions.

On the radiator issue, another consideration might be epoxy to affix the mounting bracket.

[56willys]

Thanks guys, this is why i asked before starting to heat up the radiator. Should have asked before I bought the brazing rod. I'll have to get some solder and do it that way. I got the brazing rod thinking it would be stronger, never even dawned on me that it would require more heat. The last thing I want to do is have to order a new radiator, so you guys saved a few hundred bucks, thanks again.

[51 CJ3]

I thought I would post pictures of flux core vs. gas shielded wire feed welding. The welds in both pictures show the welder doesn’t really have a clue but they were both done with the same machine set up for the same thickness material. Flux core wire was .035 and the solid was .030. Neither have had the brush put to them.

11337

11338

[bmorgil]

The gas shield was definitely cleaner.

[gmwillys]

Yes sir, there is a big difference in the gas shield. Thank you CJ3 for showing the difference.

[LarrBeard]

"The welds in both pictures show the welder doesn’t really have a clue... "

I would take issue with that. The welder does have a clue - he knows he is new to the art and he is asking good questions, experimenting and learning from both his successes and not so great efforts. That's having a real clue instead of doing the same thing over and over with bad results.

So there - haruumph.

[gmwillys]

Good point LarrBeard, even the most seasoned welder has off days. The environment plays a factor too. Since my shop is limited in indoor size, I often have wind issues. Even with wind breaks, a pesky breeze will torment my quality. There is a solution for that, but I don't see the immediate need to go to a dual shield set up.