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OK so now In addition to not knowing what to do for a top, I cannot figure these seats out.
I have the original seats. Of course the repro tub is not drilled for them. No big deal but it just doesn't seem right. What holds the rear outsides of the seats? The front mounts are obvious (except for exact location). The rear seat mounts however have me a bit. To the inside it is good. A metal strap bolted to the floor. But on the outsides? Does the seat just set down on the rear inner fender? It seams it would rattle like crazy. I must be missing something on the front seat, outside rear mounts.
The passenger side rests on what should be two brackets with rubber bumpers installed. There wasn't a latch or hardware that kept the seat in place, until there was a field fix on the M38A1. This consisted of a barrel door latch that was tacked on the rear portion of the tool box. This would hold the rear of the seat down. This wasn't done by the factory, but we have seen several of examples of the motor pool having been completed.
The driver's side was bolted down via a caged nut welded to the underside of the rear floor, next to the riser.
What about the body side of the seats on the rear corners. I have welded nuts under the tub for the inside straps. you can see the straps in the photo. On the CJ3A it appears both inside rear corners bolt down. I have seen the latch mod. It would sure speed up access to the tool box. I have not seen the bumper you speak of. I wonder if someone has a photo.The seats have a strap that runs to the floor on the driveshaft side. On the fender sides however there is nothing. It seams the seat frame just sets down tight against the tub inner fender.
Well in addition to not fully understanding how the seats work, there are some fitment issues. This is the delux tub kit from KW. All in all the kit fits pretty good. I am basing this on the horror stories I read about the earlier body's. These all come from MD Juan in the Philippines. They have made a lot of corrections.
The firewall hit the throttle shaft bracket and arm at the rear of the motor where they attach. This kept the tub from moving far enough forward. I had to heat and bang a small indentation. I needed about 3/4" more room.
The holes in the floor for the clutch and brake are about 1/2" to close together.
It is a CJ3A tub. The dash is set up for a CJ2A starter/coil switch.
The big problem that I need advice on:
The windshield is not centered. The arm on the passenger side is much closer than the arm arm the left. I do not know how to go about correcting this. I have read persons use heat and bend the arms to correctness. I shudder at the thought.
More windshield
It looks like the passenger side windshield sits down on the cowl as well. I've never had to deal with this, so take my advice with a handful of salt ...
Apply BFH and BFT (BF torch) heat, pound gently and adjust to fit.
GMWillys and I are used to the drawing note:
"Hammer to close gap. Weld, grind flush and paint to match. Stamp "Interchangeable Part". Pack, ship and send invoice".
Yeah, it's annoying to have to do rework on things you've spent good money on, but it's the best of the few choices you have. Let us know how you solve this.
Hahaha! I love the engineering note! We had a similar saying that used to float around the manufacturing floor. "Beat it to fit, paint it to finish".
It is setting on the cowl on the passenger side. I think it is because it is shoved so far to the drivers side. It looks like It will be fairly close once it is centered. On the inside the hold down clamps are off an equal amount. They also look like they will line up when (if) the frame is centered. I am going to try a cold bend (and beer) first. If that gets to wild, the blue wrench will follow. I am not sure how to hold the dang thing. This may have happened in shipping. When the crate arrived at my house from KW, the fenders etc. were tied up so to speak inside the tub. Something had fallen on the paper thin crate cover and busted it all up. There is a big dent in the cowl. There is a lot of dents and scratches inside from the stuff banging around. I have a few dents etc. to fix on the outside before paint. When I pull the hinge bolt out of the drivers side, the frame pops rearward towards the back. The passenger side arm seems to be bent and forcing the frame rearward.
We use hammer to fit, paint to match. O.D. green CARC paint is easy to blend.
The outboard seat rests up against the inner fender on the passenger side. The rubber bumper goes on the inner leg of the passenger seat. The driver's side has the three points that mounts the seat.
The windshield is out of whack. I'll try to get home before dark to get some photos of how they should sit. If you are handy with a torch, that would be the fastest. If you have any doubt, use a come along or a ratchet straps to bring the arms together. With one side closer then the other, you may need to add some heat to draw that side in enough without pulling the other. The trick will be to retain the height of the hinges in relation to the top of the windshield. The mount arm tips should be straight, and not tipped in. It looks like the mounts may be backwards. Again, I'll get some photos.
bmorgil;
You are having the same problem with your windsheild as I did, Not centered worth a hoot....
I tried heating and bending but the more I fooled with it the worse it got. The only advantage I had over yours is I cut the whole dash out and welded in a solid piece of steel to eliminate all the gauge holes,emergency brake hole and everything else that was standard bc I wanted to put my gauge holes in different locations and add switches for the fog lights,electric fan and other switches down the road.
By doing that I could mount the windsheild clamps wherever I wanted and you are limited to yours bc it is already set. I ended up cutting the arms off the windsheild and centering it on the cowl and welding the arms back on. The problem if you move yours to center it your windsheild clamps may not line up then you have a bigger problem.
Grant it mine is far from perfect but it is better than when I started, it took me a 6-8 pack of beer and a half a pack of Winstons to finally say the heck with it it looks good enough.
A buddy of mine that took 5 years to build his Model A street rod told me "Think everything through before you start cutting and welding" thats why my tub is not PC yet...
I still have to mount the motor and tranny to make sure my overdrive shifter will come up through the floorbard without cutting,welding,re-cutting and welding and patching.
Good Luck, just remember Think it through before you start heating,beating,and bending it may cause you some A&* ache you really dont need......You have done WELL so far it looks Great!!!
Attachment 4547Attachment 4548Attachment 4549Attachment 4550Attachment 4551
Wow in the first shot with the old firewall, the frame fits just like mine. Tight on the pass side and wide on the driver. Well at least it appears to be a "standard deviation". Maybe someone will have successfully pulled off a re-center without cutting out the dash and firewall! The clamps are off the same as the frame. It looks like if the frame would line up so would the clamps.
gmwillys has me straight on the seats. I now have that figured out. I am hoping for some pics from him on the windshield. He was thinking the mounts might be backwards. This could be a tough one.
Man that CJ of yours is coming along! I can't wait to see the finished project. You are definitely good with the metal work TJ!
Thank You Sir....
If you hold the mounts up to where they bolt on they should be square with the body, I don't think the windshield arms will fit in the mounts if they are on backwards maybe I am wrong and that's highly possible. Like my Bride say's " can you even say wrong" and I say yes wwwwwwrrrrrooonnnnngggg Not Right:):)
I have cut out, replaced,welded,re-cut so many times now it's getting frustrating but I want it to look half way like somebody knew what they were doing . I think I've used up 2 maybe 3 spools of .23 and .30 wire in my little lincoln wire feed 135 but I am starting to get the hang of it.
I found out early the tin they used is like paper and you need to go slow.
Did you get your body from Jay at Willys Overland by you? That's where I got mine and he does a good job with the fitment rehab.
I am thinking the boys in the Philippines really must of got paid by the spot welds instead of by the hour:):)
I have also found out that the powder coating covers up a Multitude of Sin bc it goes on so thick and when they bake it it has a tendency to smooth things out.
I hadn't forgotten about the pictures. Been on the run since 02:30, and finally had a chance to get back to my desk. I won't make it home before dark, so here are some archive photos of my old heep. None are direct subject matter.
A few more photos for effect. The red Heep was an early MD Juan bodied M38/3A clone. The windshield fit alright, but nothing else was right.
Oh ya some good looks there gmwillys. I figured out a few things from them. The mounts are on correctly. I can see how it fits. I think the arms right where they bolt to the mounts are the culprit. It looks like when they flattened the ends for the pivot bolt, they were not paying attention to the angle they ended up at. I think a slight adjustment right there might work. It does not look like it will be easy to bend. I will need to maintain flat.
I noticed in the photos there appears to be a washer under the pivot bolt. I think one would be beneficial. Did washers come from the factory? My brand new stainless pivot bolts dug right in to the frame.
No it wont go together. It would but things would be bent. There is a significant angle built in to the mount to match the cowl side.
The "kit"s a KW. It is not to bad. I had to drill some mount holes, bang some clearance in the firewall etc. I thought about Willys Overland but, I had to save the cash and fit it myself.
I love powder coat!
I’m excited to see how it turns out!!!
It will be the only one in these parts that has been powder coated.
I’ve had to send parts back several times bc they look milky bc the clear didn’t bake long enough but we’ll get it.
I see that the mounts were not backwards, but a much steeper angle then the original. I have caught myself putting them on bass ackward because of the slight angle. The end of the arms are more straight. With everything square to the body, the windshield arms pivot stay parallel to the body. It would appear that with the angles that the windshield and the mounts, I would think the windshield would bind when raising or lowering.
On the passenger side the arm bit into the head of the pivot. It is because the arm /hole is not 90 deg to the mount/pivot bolt. On the back of the pivot bolt it bit into the arm and drug all the way. when the frame pivots.
OK. I chickened out and loaded the tub and windshield on the back of my pickup. I bolted two 7' 2x4's under the tub and we "coffin" carried it to the truck. We lifted it up and set it down right on top of the bed sides. I should have taken a pic of that. To the body shop it went. I am super lucky. I have a California show car builder living right down the street.
The windshield driver side mount right at the pivot needed to be bent in about 10 degrees. The passenger side was another story. After trying different methods, the boy's ended up cutting a piece out of the arm and bending it out and down, and then welding it back up. It fit's pretty darn good now!
When the tub returns it is reassembly time! A pic is attached of the fenders and grill on. I like the color! Nice color for a Jeep. Not olive drab but, a good "civi" choice.
gmwillys, the tip on the guide pins for the fenders was perfect. Man that went smooth. I didn't even come close to scratching anything.
A recap on the repro tub:
There were two major issues that had to be corrected. The fire wall is not correct directly behind the throttle linkage. I tried heating it red and forming with a body hammer. It was to far off for that. It actually makes contact before the tub can be pushed all the way forward. The body shop cut out the area and remade it. I will take some pics. I need at least a half inch more room.
The windshield fit was terrible. No way that would have even went together with out damage every time you moved it. It took the body shop some work to correct it.
The dashboard was not drilled for the high beam indicator or the correct starter switch. The dash was set up for a CJ2A starter switch on the passenger side. A big 1" hole and 3 small holes. The holes had to be welded and filled. I could have used a 2A switch but, the point here is its a 3A! This is a common complaint on the web. I can't quite figure that one out. It is a dead giveaway that it is the wrong dash for a 3A or, it is a repro tub.
I cannot figure out why they don't put the 4 "Top" mounts on the tub. I have chosen not to put them on. I do wish they had come welded on. I am going to use a modified M38 summer top. By using the M38 style, I don't have to weld in any mounts.
The tailgate hinges are ROUGH! I had to grind the openings to get the tailgate in. They were out of square.
All in all not to bad really. Randy my body shop guy, said he has seen repro parts for various cars that are much worse. This tub was purchased from KW in 2018. It has a lot of corrections from the older ones.
Reproduction parts and complete bodies are a sore spot for many restorations. Not just in the Heep world but in others. Several years back I was working on my Chevelle project, and was following an outfit that was making complete body kits for Cameros. At the time, they rolled out the kit, it was rumored that the Chevelle kits weren't far behind. After watching a few shows that presented the cons and a few pros to dropping $12,000 for the kit. Nothing fit correctly. The kits had to be taken down and fixed before anything else could be done. The body kits were made somewhere in Asia, and maybe next to the Juan factory.
Your decision to go find someone who knew what he was doing and get things done correctly instead of "Bubba-ing" and butchering it wasn't chickening out - it was a really wise decision. As Clint Eastwood, another crusty old geezer once said; "A man's got to know his limitations". A saying worth remembering.
OK, it cost you some money, but it's done right and every time you decide to lower the windshield, step on the starter or look at the high beam indicator, you're not going to mumble and cuss to yourself about how it isn't right! (And even loading it up and hauling it to the body shop - you probably spent fewer calendar days getting it fixed than if you had kept on trying it yourself).
I like the deep green - definitely not OD or CARG, but a solid respectable Jeep color. Jeeps just should NEVER be Poison Lime Green or Hello Kitty Pink like some of the new little SUV's.!
My all time favorite Eastwood Dirty Harry quote! It was written by John Frederick Milius, the writer who brought us Apocalypse Now.
Yes LarrBeard the feeling of cowardice faded quickly, when in a few hours it looked great! I was able to correct everything, but that windshield and delicate tin work around the firewall, I don't have the expertise. I know more now. I might try it my self next time. Whoops... can't let the little misses hear "next time"!
You are absolutely right, I would have thought about every mistake every time I looked at it.
gmwillys I couldn't imagine shelling out $12,000 in several years back cash value (3% inflation), and having it not be perfect. Man that would hurt. I really can't complain. Taking your story and several from the early 2000's on Juan Tubs, I didn't have to do much. I think it looks pretty original. We will see in August! There will be a lot of originals bodies to compare it to in the Toledo parade (If I "git er done").
Well this saga goes on. Windshield is all fitted up nice and we are having trouble getting the latches to hook. They just don't go up far enough. The next thing is a big question for you all. How sloppy is the fit between the hole in the windshield arm and the pilot on the pivot bolt? I have new stainless pivot bolts. They are smaller by a good 1/16" than the hole in the windshield. It makes for a sloppy fit. Is this the way it is? The body shop boy's are unhappy with it. These are show car guy's however. I did have to dial them down from custom mixed 15 coat see through pearl essence.
What do you all think? Are the pivot bolts that sloppy?
Not 1/16" sloppy. The well used and abused '46 we have, with the original rusted out windshield is tighter than that, at about 2 to 4/32". It's a pain to try and balance the windshield while trying to start the bolt in the caged nut.
Dang it! This will be a pain to fix.
Bmorgil,
I bought the same nuts for mine from KW’s and I had the same problem until I got the windshield PCed and now it fits tight. I’m not sure about the size but I think their 9/16 and I bought SS washers to fit over the shoulder of the bolt and maybe even put one on the inside and it will tighten up pretty good on the windshield arms.
I even bought some sticky one side 1” x 3/4” weather stripping and put it on the bottom edge of the windshield frame where it sits on the cowl and it helped tighten everything up as well.
The hole in the frame is much larger than the pivot. The windshield kind of flops around on them. I bought the type with the wing nut just to try a different type. The threads on my stainless ones didn't get any lube and the stainless galled up. What a mess! Well I'll see if the wing nuts fit any better. I also bought washers for the inside and out. The first thing that happened was the windshield dug right into the nut when the frame pivoted. So new frame mounts and new pivot bolts and we will try this again.
Yes I had the same thing happen.
I welded fine thread nuts on the back of the bracket and had them PCed, then I started trying to get the windshield fitted and low and behold some idiot forgot to Never-Seeze the stainless pivot bolt and it galled together.
My mentor that’s been helping has told me.....at least a dozen times ALWAYS Never-Seeze stainless. It’s not as bad with stainless bolt and nut verses stainless bolt and non-stainless nut.
So back to unbolting the bracket,take a dremel with a cutting wheel, split the nut, weld on another and send it out to get re-PCed. Oh and order another pivot nut from KW only to find out you can only order them by the pair.
I’m my worst enemy!!!!
P.S. Always Use NS on stainless bolts/nuts:):)
Oh man! You would be shocked at how many people don't realize that under high pressure loads, stainless will "gall". Literally weld itself together. This mistake is the worst there is. The fastener fails exactly in the mode you are trying to prevent. It seizes up much tighter than a rusted bolt and nut. Once it galls up and stops turning its over. Now you will have to cut it off or, break it. Sometimes I wonder if using stainless is worth the trouble! I am using it everywhere grade 8 isn't required. I like the way they look and, they don't rust up and stain the paint.
The horrors! I get up in the night to.... old guy you know. I step right into a soaking wet carpet. Bathroom stop valve leaking. Soaks the floor runs under the wall ruins carpet drywall ceiling below. Panic, towels razor knife cut up the carpet , haul it out through the garage, shop light falls on newly painted Jeep front fender and grill. Big gouge on the top of the fender. Big chip on top of the grill.
Well s..t happens. So I figure I have only run it long enough to verify it starts and seems to run. It's time to bring it to temp. It comes up to temp awfully quick. I begin to see steam from the front and the rear studs on the manifold. Dang it I used high dollar Loctite thread sealer on those. I am still wondering why it got to 180 deg so quickly. I have a 165 thermostat, Aluminum radiator and a nice fitting shroud. I am going to lose sleep. I bored this motor .080 over. Could the sonic test have been in-accurate? My mind races. I pull the studs. The Loctite seems to have not adhered to the stud. Installer error. Obviously I didn't clean the oil off the threads on those two. No trouble elsewhere. I pressure check it to 16 lbs. It holds for 15 min. I drive my GMC 4 hours with my son to look at a car he is salivating over. On the way he drives, I provide study aid for his upcoming grad school exams. He is cramming, I cannot pronounce the words in his notes. I am thinking very little. Suddenly it hits me, after the world fell on my newly painted front end I threw a furniture blanket over the FRIGAN' GRILL! Had to clear my mind to think straight!
Taking the fender back to the paint shop. Watching all the auto races today. Drinking some Angry Orchard hard cider. I will start again tomorrow!
In the dead of winter I keep one of the small ceramic heaters on the floor under the skid plate under the oil pan. After a while I figured that the warm air was floating out through the radiator - duhhh ..
Then I figured out that the magnetic fender covers I almost always use clipped onto the grill very nicely, stayed put and didn't scratch anything.
As for thermostats - once bitten you stay shy for a long time. I had one stick in January 2018 and puke coolant everywhere - I still find a little if I look close enough. I have found that when I set out at my usual putter around pace, the '48 heats up to about 180, then the thermostat opens and things settle down at 160.
But, if I get in a hurry and push things, the back end of the engine where the sensor is will get really warm (well above 185 on the gauge) before the front end warms up enough to open the thermostat. I had a scare last Saturday on the way to a show because we were a bit late and I got in a hurry. Since I had one thermostat stick - I keep a close eye on temperature until everything gets settled at 160.
I thought I had the market cornered on the snowball effect. Look on the bright side, the moving blanket helped to point out the thread sealant didn't adhere. Everything happens for a reason.
Hahahaha! Perfect gmwillys! Just perfect. That is the attitude that keeps us pushing forward.
Attached photo of the way the day ended.
Check out the way the fan sucked the blanket in tight. It was draped over the bumper! I think the fan has a good "pull"! So as you said gmwillys, the good news is the blanket is providing a test environment.
Man I am having trouble with that stud leaking steam. I pulled the front and rear studs. Cleaned as best I could. I used Permatex thread sealant on the entire motor. The white stuff. Expensive. I have used it for a long time. I first used it building racing engines long ago. It worked well on head studs. I noticed the first time I tore it down, there was no adhesion to the threads. They were steam cleaned. I used some lacquer thinner on them but, the threads in the block are tough to clean. I reassembled and I fired it up, and it still leaked though not as bad, from the rear stud. Pull it apart again. The front stud seamed to seal, but I didn't trust it. So drained the water again, and pulled both studs. The front stud was sealing up. I put on more goop and put it back in. On the back one I cleaned it up, and used Aviation Form-a-Gasket. Fired it back up The front stud is good, the rear however is not. Though not producing any water, it is producing some steam. It seems like it is a little less each time I fire it up and bring it to temp. Man this is a tough one to seal. The threads must be too sloppy. I wonder if silicone might work.
Any ideas you guy's?
Being a cheap bass turd, when I would build up my derby car power plants, it was getting expensive to reseal the headers after each run. Orange high temp silicone was liberally smeared onto the zoomie mount plates, out of frustration. I ran three times in one summer without having to reseal.... Did that for several years, on several different engines and header combos.
Essentially, you are dealing with the block threads that has had some erosion from a leak. The sealants are building up the threads, or at least the voids within the threads.
Look for little cracks ... Yuck!
Helicoil?
Don't go to magic mud in the coolant until all else fails.
LarrBeard, your first words are scary. I thought about cracks. I had everything Magnafluxed at the Machine Shop. The heat has a way of opening cracks however.
The Helicoil... I may have had to put one in there. Now I don't remember! I put in a few.
gmwillys, I wonder if it will "heal" after a few more cycles? I have never used Aviation Form a Gasket on a stud. It seems to be less each cycle.
I also thought about trying some Permatex #1. I have never used it. I have definitely removed it. When I was a young rookie mechanic tearing down and cleaning for reassembly was my Job. The things I was cleaning.. Heavy Truck transmissions. I swore I would never use that stuff because it was so hard to remove! Now I wonder if it might do the trick. I have no experience using it. I only know it is like asphalt to remove.
Oh man... getting close now.