Just took cable off and was able to highlight the a,b.c so i could quickly see it and id it, lantern battery on shopping list, need one anyway
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Just took cable off and was able to highlight the a,b.c so i could quickly see it and id it, lantern battery on shopping list, need one anyway
DAMN.......... got out the manual to id ABC no they could not do that they just have arrows pointing to the three wires and saying field and armature but no A, B, or C HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A IS OR WHAT B IS OR WHAT C IS. MANUAL ZERO HELP
Pelago,
It took me a little bit, but I found what I was looking for. This link should set you up.
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modul...531&highlight=
I read gmwillys' thread and here is the picture of the connector, with pins showing!
And now I know the last of the connector part number ...
MSxxxx-22-2S on the generator, MSxxxx-22-2P on the harness.
(22 is the shell size, 2 is the contact arrangement and P/S is pin/socket)
Dern, we're gettin' smart here.
This item here is great... Upper echelon maintenance not user/operator clean battery cable maintenance tm 9-1825b . Going to do first part soon, now that identified b is what i want.
Kinda worried about taking cover off regulator.. All screws broken loose but one and probably will have to dremel remove it. BUT WONT I STILL HAVE TO POLARIZE REG, NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THIS, NO, I UNDERSTAND THE POLARIZATION, BUT MAYBE DID A DUMB THING BUT SINCE IT WAS RUNNING AND USED SAME PARTS AS ORIGINAL THOUGHT WHY NOT JUST PUT IT TOGETHER AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS AND IT WAS PUTTING OUT 27-29 VOLTS AT STARTER (WHERE I PUT VOLTMETER) THEN IT STOPPED??
Is this the same as hitting the field with a 6volt lantern battery?
since am going to be touching a 24vdc hot lead to pin think i will reverse that and leave one connector?aligator lead to the pin and make the weld spot on the battery lead on the starter....that way wont have a weld spot on that exp cable
If the regulator wasn't polarized from the start, you would not have been getting your 27 to 29 volts. No, it wasn't a dumb thing to hook up and run. Unless new parts are added to the regulator of generator, then there would have been no need to re-polarize. I've seen guys that were insistent on polarizing each and every time they unhooked the wires. It doesn't hurt anything to be too cautious. With that being said, if you take a die grinder to hardware, then it would be a good idea to polarize afterward.
One stinking screw just wont budge and not too keen on a torch on painted surface, but think i can get dremel cutter in there and cut head off, if i have to.. have never been inside one of these, ever even the old ford type. but now have manual?? but if it is pieces or parts bad, not going to be any good unless it is rectifier/whatever is in there or maybe resistor? not going to get any parts, so if i do the other test and am at still reading batt voltage at starter, then not charging and i cant help but think generator good, it is built like a tank, maybe brushes and you can get those, along with some other stuff in repair kit and have found regulators supposedly for this make and model jeep
and if i gotta touch hot lead will be touching hot lead to battery/starter and leave weld spot there
The filter, capacitor, R4 and the rectifier are all parts added to reduce interference in the radio package on the M38A1. They don't do anything in regard to the generator's basic charging function.
I'd clean relay contact points with 400 or 600 grit emery paper then wash away grit and crud with a piece of typing paper wet down with alcohol of contact cleaner. Be careful not to bend things.
Ira:
Just pretend there is some booze in there. A Marine can open just about anything if there is booze to be found.
Oh, by the way - my wife started taking vancomycin for a stomach infection today. I sounded like I knew what I was talking about when the Dr. started telling us about it since I had looked it up while I was trying to figure out your message last week.
How are you doing?
ah not sure, seem to still have infection in right calf at least it feels that way. damn diabetes gonna kill me i think. and then have afib which creates sluggishness and loss of any get up and go and sleep issues, dont want to rant but getting sick of being sick. just want to go out to garage and do stuff, ya know.........
Yeah - gettin' old isn't for sissies, but its way ahead of the other choice.
Here is some info I found somewhere... It's something out of a 1000+ page Army TM that dates back to the 1940's that covers just about everything you might find on a vehicle.
You'll need a copy of TM9-1825B Electrical Equipment (Auto-Lite) November 1952 or newer. Or TM9-1825A or C (can't remember) Electrical Equipment (Delco Remy). {That's the 1000+ page document}
If you have the Auto-Lite VBC4002UT or VBC4003UT look at the regulator from the side with the 2 electrical plugs to your left, the 3 major units are left to right: 1-Circuit breaker 2-Current regulator 3-voltage regulator.
Usually problems are just pitted or corroded contacts. File them very lightly with an ignition point metal file (or a girl's METAL finger nail file) then clean them by passing a tape of thin cloth soaked in carbon tetrachloride or any top quality electric contact cleaner. Run her and see what you get.
Adjustment is straight forward for each. Circuit breaker armature air gap .000 to .065 and contact point gap .035 min.
Current regulator armature air gap .047 to .049 and gap between contact spring and stop is .010 to .016.
Voltage regulator armature air gap is .040 to .042 and gap between contact spring and stop is .010 to .016.
Contact pressure for CR & VR is 7 to 8 OZ's. Circuit breaker operating ranges are:
Closing volts 25.7 to 26.7 and;
Opening amps (discharge) 7.0 to 11.0.
Current regulator operating amps 24.5 to 26.0.
Voltage regulator operating voltage at 70 Deg's is 28.30 + or - .40."
Probably too much information
wow. thats a lot, but will try, after i get the dam cover off, so far 4 hours of slide knife blade and tap tap tap with small mallet, just to start the separation, still have to cut off the one screw head with dremel cut off tool, and quite frankly this is so tiresome because the damn thing was working after a moment of running the regulator turned on ( i believe anyway because my simpson 260 at the 50volst scale would read 28 vdc at the battery) damn damn double damn. i so wanted to get on with the body but just can not push this thing out of garage until i am satisfied it is 100% ready to go, and it aint, fixing the leak in transmission was tiring. then i had a leak in the transfer case and i took it apart and ordered new seals, and when i took it apart there were zero shims in it then when it put it together Mike at Kaiser tells me should have 1 3thousand play in it, now got to drain it, take it apart and play with shims, not sure about that because there were no shims in it. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Well tmrw the 6VDC batt test, wish me luck, if i got voltage then regulator, did find one on ebay for 65.00
pin up poster now on the wall in garage hanging over the work bench. apologize for my tardiness and thanks to all:D
back on topic gen/voltage reg.
did the simple test, not wanting to weld anything i did the 6volt lantern battery deal. with engine running i momentarily touched the pos 6vdc to pin B that is the recognized correct pin while reading pin a tremendous rise in output of generator, did same on pin c again tremendous rise in voltage, was on 25volt scale on simpson and got almost 12 volts, while as in idle got low low voltage quickly shut down and looking like voltage reg went south on me
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-M37-J...Fay6df&vxp=mtr
Sounds like a regulator to me. That looks to be a good deal on the regulator. It looks to be new as they claim, whether it be a Depot refurbished or NOS, either way it should work well for you.
Great to have you back in action. Don't over do it though.
You wrote:
"did the simple test, not wanting to weld anything i did the 6volt lantern battery deal."
Technically you can do this with the 24V batteries, but if you have a shorted field coil, a lot of current goes somewhere with things evaporating in between. In many cases you can also do this by just grounding the field, but that depends on the residual magnetism in the pole pieces - questionable on something that has been sitting a long time.
The 6-volt battery test involves a couple of amps, not enough to do any welding. Had you run the engine up, you would have gotten a bunch of volts. One guy I am working with got about 40-volts off his 12-volt generator, but he is getting a negative voltage from his generator. Huh???
Meter leads are right, but he had the generator redone recently. He suspects field coils reversed. I suggested he take it back to the shop and have them check it on their bench and show him it works.
By the way, thank Amy @ KWAS for the poster! We started the project while you were in sick bay and we figured that was about as much excitement as you could share in today's politically correct world.
Get better!
The solid state regulator would be a good deal. It is more reliable. I saw the $65 eBay one, but it didn't have a cover, just the guts. It was a NOS unit, so if you salvage a cover, it would work too.
going to try one more time to get cover off the one that is in the jeep, will have to remove on screw head with dremel to do it, but then i can visually inspect and clean contacts, not real interested in rebuilding one, seems once you get inside of one of these things you keep finding more and more wrong
DAMN!!!! I GOT MOVEMENT ON SIMPSON 260 Was running the engine and looked down and was seeing spikes up to 28volts+ tapped on the regulator and got more spikes, did not stay up there but feel strongly that got to take cover off and get in there, contacts?? clean. first thing in morning will do so, maybe its cuz i put up the great get well card?? sadly to say that is only the 2nd one ever received in my life, but sure brought a smile
Well, it worked for a while when you were checking things earlier.
Dirty contacts are high on the hit list...
Here is a good tutorial (from 1948!) on regulators. It has a section about cleaning contacts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRk1xbJIBcY
Good luck.
Still have not removed cover, drinking some coffee and getting ready to take the dremel and cut off the one bad screw head. This another reason i like my analog simpson, a digital would not have caught the spikes. but watching the voltage on the simpson i could see source 24vdc and then see the spikes to 28 volts, momentarily, then back to source then another bunch of spikes. Agree contacts high on the list. might get lucky and a simple cleaning might work it out. i like those old tech videos, reminds me of Marine Corps audio/visual training aids. old school stuff, but then again it fits me OLD!!
COVER OFF! DAMN LOOKS BRAND NEW INSIDE SUPER CLEAN.. Contact points pretyt, grey, no burn marks just corroded looking, cleaned them the relay on right closest to the cables was stuck open, manually worked it back and forth and adj the wheel so there was somemore tension on it.
STARTED HER UP, IMMEDIATELY GOT 29 VOLTS THEN VOLTAGE RELAY CLOSED AND I GOT 34 VOLTS. that seems a bit high, called my super mechanic neighbor and he said that that voltage is kinda pushing it. he is going to research this reg and come down and do some magic, but it do work........
Congrats! Glad you won the battle. You needed a win.
As a general rule, voltage should be 28 bolts when batteries are discharged. The voltage would be at 27 volts normally.
went thru the electronic manual TM 9-1825B Electrical Equipment (Auto-Lite), 1944 : United States. War Department : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive not a lot of help, lots of resistance measurments but kind of lacking on what to adjust, feel that the voltage is a bit "brisk" but that should be able to adj down, let it run for 1/2 hour and batteries stayed a pretty much ambient temp, not hot at all. BUT DAMN I DO FEEL GOOD!! I KNOW WHY IT WORKED I AM WORKING UNDER THIS NEAT POSTER A GREAT BUNCH OF GUYS SENT ME.............
Now to figure out how to get the damn race bearing inside that damn tubeAttachment 2902Attachment 2903
The charging systems haven't changed a whole lot in 65 years. The Stryker uses a 570 amp/ 24 volt alternator to run all the Buck Rogers gizmos that our soldiers need for safe passage to and from the battlefield. The regulator is very similar to the one used on your M38A1. As far as adjustments for the regulator, I will have to read up on it to see what adjustments can be made.
Sounds like LarrBeard has out done himself on the poster. He knew exactly what you needed to speed up your recovery.
yeah when the cut off is closed i read excess 30 volts when open i read 28 nominal, but after 1/2 hour feeling the sides of the batteries does not show any heat in them
Amy is the poster lady - no; not the poster girl .....
do these gaps look right, from the tech manual for electronics/regulator pageAttachment 2904 Attachment 2905
That is a good source of information. That should get you all set to go.
Looking at several places, a charge voltage of about 7.5 volts is just about right for a three-cell battery (6-volts). Many older charging systems were set to 7.8 volts. Now, if I take that number for a three-cell battery and multiply times 4 for a 12-cell 24-volt system, anything under 31.2 volts would be an acceptable charge level.
Anything under 28.4-volts is getting on the low side.
it is reading 34 vdc, nothing gets hot, but just too much, when i release the disconnect relay by pushing down on the voltage realy the disconnect disconnects and it goes to 29 volts as soon as i release the voltage relay the disconnect goes back into play and it goes to 34 volts
Attachment 2907
when i break the contacts on the center relay the reg relay on far right breaks contact and voltage rests at 29 with a nominal + but a good charge voltage, have no idea what why this happens, but when the last relay on right activates it puts a considerable load on motor
you know this thing here turning into a book? 77k looked at it, damn
That's because it's a good story and we're answering questions people want to know the answers to. Here is some info about that regulator:
Ira – and all who read this. Corrections are welcomed since a lot of this is from just reading and looking. I could be full of … whatever … on some of this.
The generator in the M38A1 is what is called a type A generator. It has its field coils isolated from the armature internally. One end of the field coils is grounded, the other comes out to the field contact in the generator connector.
Look at the two figures I have attached to this note.
The first is the internal wiring diagram of what I think is the regulator for the M38A1. There are so many variations running around there may be some differences, but I hope I’m using the right diagram.
The second diagram is what I’ve come up with after a week of studying old stuff. I’ve drawn it to look like relays and switches because that’s what you and I recognize.
On the left, S1 is the cutout relay contacts. This is the left relay in the box and when the generator stops producing a voltage, it disconnects the battery from the generator (the ARMATURE connection). Since the engine is running and the generator is charging the battery this switch is closed.
Now, we have two sets of relay contacts and one (and only one) resistor controlling the generator.
In the condition have drawn the circuit, this represents the condition at start-up. The full battery voltage is being connected across the field coils through S2,S3 and K3B and the system is charging pretty hard.
K2 is the middle relay, the over current relay, that controls S2. Until the current provided by the generator exceeds the safe rating for the brushes and windings, that relay will not energize and S2 stays closed. If you open those contacts manually, (which you say you have done) you switch R3 into the field circuit. That reduces the field current – which in turn lowers the output voltage of the generator.
Now, K3A is the voltage sensing coil for the voltage regulator relay. As long as S3, (the contacts on the voltage regulator relay) stays closed, the current set by S2’s condition will flow in the field coil. I cannot find any information on just what K3B does, but it is a current coil in series with the field.
Here is what I suspect happens. Current flowing through K3B keeps S3 closed under normal conditions. K3A, the voltage coil for K3, is connected to the BATT/ARM through resistor R2. If Armature (and battery) voltage gets to the regulator set point, current through K3A opposes the magnetic field set up by K3B and opens S3. Field current is now set by the series combination of R1 and R2, which lowers field current – reducing output voltage – allowing S3 to close again and the cycle continues.
S3 only opens a very few thousandths of an inch, and will open and close a couple of hundred times a second as the battery approaches full charge.
Since charge cutout voltage is high, the springs that hold the points closed are exerting too much tension. The cutout point can be changed by adjusting the nut on the voltage regulator armature - its movable coil. The photo shows the spring adjustment on a civilian regulator out of the '48 junk pile.
Another guess. When you manually open the contacts on the center relay (the over current relay), you remove most of the current through K3B. That leaves K3A as the controlling coil for S3. Since K3A will have voltage on it, and K3B can’t override it, K3A opens S3 when S2 is opened.
With S2 and S3 open, there is still some field current through R1 and R2.
Just to finish the story, R4 is there to absorb energy dumped when the magnetic field in the field coils collapses as S2 and S3 open and close. As the field collapses, a negative transient is generated. Even civilian regulators use this resistor to protect the points on the relays from arcing too badly. Since the M38 has a bunch of radios, which DO NOT like negative transients, the rectifier (also commonly called a transient suppresion diode) clamps negative spikes at the field terminal.
And, to answer the last point. With the last relay on the right activated, the center relay activated and the left relay activated, the generator is charging the battery at its highest possible charge rate. Yep, that’s a considerable load on the engine.
GUYS –If this isn’t right – correct me!
was measuring voltage and making notes of what was where, and i accidently activated the cut off relay and damn the generator started up like a motor. wow, but took me few seconds to get dc disconnected and had a whisp of smoke from regulator, going to have to look under neath and make sure nothing got crispy
LarrBeard, excellent work on your research. I can say that I've learned a lot about the voltage regulator from your work.
Pelago, your body of work on your project is an inspiration to the rest of us to get out and make our restorations happen. I look forward to seeing your daily progress. Now, I need life to slow up a bit to get after my own project.
letting voltage regulator cool a bit, got to do some thinking on that. lot of great information but need to digest it a bit. now this damned steering rod and the tube driving me nutsAttachment 2915Attachment 2916
i have already destroyed one of these and have the original one, cleaned up and lubricated (considerably more substantial than the new one) and then have the new one from Kaiser. HOW IN THE SAM HELL DO YOU GET THAT DAMNED RACE BEARING INSIDE THE TUBE FROM THE TOP
Kaiser Willys has a video showing the bearing sliding into place. I would take an inside caliper and measure the column tube to ensure that the tube is in fact round, then compare the bearing outside diameter with the inside diameter of the tube. Compare the original bearing with the reproduction bearing. Something is out of whack for you to not be able to get the bearing to seat within the tube. If you will, take some pictures of what you are seeing, then maybe one of us will see something that is amiss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsILb3-O4AY
Voltage regulator is probably OK. Go do something else for a while and we'll figure out how to reset the over-voltage relay when we need to. You've got enough battery to start it every so often to keep it in the habit of running.
I AM (EVERY ADJECTIVE IN THE WORLD TO EMPHASIZE STUPID) STUPID All the diagrams i had suggest that the upper race bearing is inserted with the shaft hole DOWN, and that is how i have been trying to do this, not having a whole steering assembly that was not destroyed i did not take one apart, all this time i had been trying to put the GD thing in uspside down. stupid stupid stupid