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Thread: CJ-3A First Willys

  1. #111
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    L134 water temp issues

    After a lot of searching the web forums, unhappy with running temps or, erratic temp behavior on the L134 seems to be common. After watching mine behave badly, I think the "adaptation" of a modern pellet thermostat might need to be looked at a little harder. I was reading on another forum where someone is also seeing the same thing. He has actually calc'd out the flow between the two. There is a significant difference.

    The thermostat sitting high in the housing and not in the head is also a big issue. I watched the temp move around on the gauge, while simultaneously taking readings with a good heat sensing gun. The temperature at the sensor fitting in the head reads right with the gauge. Hotter than the thermostat rating by 20 degrees or more at times. At times it is closer. The temperature at the top of the housing is right at the thermostat value. At idle the temperature change is pretty big. When the motor starts to heat up when you hold it at a very fast idle for an extended period, things get worse between the head and the top of the housing. The restriction seems to be holding hotter water behind the T-Stat in the head. I was able to get it to 200 on the head and 180 on the other side of the thermostat right at the hose connection. Here is where it gets unsettling. When you shut it off the water in the housing cools quickly shutting the thermostat down. The water in the head skyrockets. Easily getting to 210+. Pressure in the head gets extreme with no exit except that little hole we drilled (and leaky studs). Not a good situation.

    I am going to call Stant and start with a Thermostat that opens a 1 3/8" port about 1/2". From there I will figure out a way to get it to fit under the housing and in the head like it was designed.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 08-08-2019 at 08:13 AM.

  2. #112
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Parade Observations

    I picked up LarryBeard and we joined the Parade. We drove right by the entrance, drove back and in we went. "peeJ" the little Emerald Green CJ, ran warm all the way. Stuck in the parade it got to 220 on the gauge. No boil over but, hot. Idle was brutal. It would not idle under 1500 or so. The motor hated it. I stalled it at least twice. A little starter trouble (still working on that) but it was working! Well as LarrBeard put it "there are just some things ya gotta drive it around to find out". True story. All in all we limped it through. It was a blast!

    It was sure acting like a clogged idle circuit or a very lean condition. Thinking vacuum leak, I started reading. It seems some gents have seen this before. A little googling led me to the fact that the carb to intake gaskets have "crush" sleeves in them. Ugh oh! I am very careful about carb attaching bolts. Over torquing these will warp the throttle body and cause huge problems.... on an aluminum carb body. The WO has a beefy iron body. It has to be tightened. I tightened it until I could feel the crushing bushings stop, and the nuts began to "draw" up tight.

    It idles at 500. I bumped it to 600. Nice!

    It runs up to 190 now and holds there. Still to hot for my liking. It should run closer to the 160 thermostat temperature. More to try here. The thermostat set up in general is suspect. A heat gun shows a cool radiator and a hot cylinder head. There is something here to find. An awful lot of posts about these baby's running 190 to 200 degrees. They should run much closer to the thermostat temp. It shouldn't take a "perfect sealed shroud" and a "huge radiator" to cool these little 4 cylinders. An aluminum radiator is light years better than what was in it. These little CJ's were used as tractor's! If I hooked a plow to a CJ that was running 10 to 20 degrees over the thermostat with no load, I can guarantee you it will be moments before it boils out under full low speed load. I will continue to try to improve this. Something about the way the modern thermostat is interacting does not seem right. There are to many CJ's running at 180 to 190 on the forums.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 08-11-2019 at 03:15 PM.

  3. #113
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    A quick note:

    The Stant 13006 thermostat that fits the Willys L134, also fits all the early Big and Small block Chevrolet's from the beginning of time until the 90's.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 08-11-2019 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #114
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    The plot thickens! Just got off the phone with Rob at Stant. He is in agreement that a low pressure system may not work quite right with the more modern thermostat. We both do not like the T stat sitting way up in the housing away from the head. He said some may not agree but, neither of us are in favor of it. This is the most interesting part. He said the 160 deg thermostat SHOULD run at 180. If I want to run at 160 you need a 140 thermostat. This is different than what I am used to. In the old days my 160 thermostat in my 1965 Chevrolet ran about 165 on gauge. I guess things have changed.

    His suggestion in the short term:

    Run a premium Thermostat Stant part number 45356. It has more flow capability and is made from stainless steel.This is a 160 degree thermostat that should hold the motor at 180 running.

    Use a Stant 14144 Thermostat. It is a 140 degree thermostat that should run the motor at 160.

    I am going to send him pictures of what we have. He is going to look through the prints. We are going to try to find something we can put in the head with more flow capability. So all of us out there with NEW inventory 160 degree thermostat should expect 180 on the gauge. If you have an older thermostat it may be running considerably closer to 160. We will figure this out.

  5. #115
    Super Moderator LarrBeard's Avatar
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    Now, the F-134 has much the same thermostat housing on top of the head, but with the valves in the head the head has a different profile. I've not had long term heat problems like you have, but it does get really hot before the thermostat opens up.

    Since you're rapidly getting to be an authority on another specialized topic - would a different thermostat keep the F-134 a little more consistent in heat?

    In the short term - I'd just throw out the 'stat. With no more than you're going to run "peeJ", you're not going to accumulate any crud and gunk from running cold.
    Last edited by LarrBeard; 08-12-2019 at 01:45 PM.

  6. #116
    Super Moderator gmwillys's Avatar
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    Don't throw out the thermostat all together. If you so choose too, cut the center out, and install the remainder of the thermostat body. This will cause a restriction, therefore keeping the water in the radiator just a bit longer to help cool it. With no restriction, the coolant doesn't have enough time to transfer heat through the radiator.

  7. #117
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmwillys View Post
    Don't throw out the thermostat all together. If you so choose too, cut the center out, and install the remainder of the thermostat body. This will cause a restriction, therefore keeping the water in the radiator just a bit longer to help cool it. With no restriction, the coolant doesn't have enough time to transfer heat through the radiator.
    I agree. This is similar to what we did with racing engines. We used different size restrictions instead of a thermostat. I think LarrBeard is referring to a test. I am enlightened after my conversation with Stant. I am at a loss for why "newer" thermostats operate at different parameters than I am used to. He was clear, the 160 degree thermostat is designed to operate the engine at 180. I just don't get that logic. However that being said, it still appears the restriction with a thermostat designed to run in a 16 lb system, Is not going to function properly in a 4 pound system. The impeller in the water pump is tiny and very "old School". No way it can build enough pressure to overcome the restriction in the modern thermostat. I believe when I install a higher flow thermostat we are going to see an improvement. I am going to figure out a way to get it set up to flow like it was designed. I have the two thermostats coming.

  8. #118
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Why it gets hot

    Sorry for the string of posts. More info on thermostats. This is an eye opener. Significant difference with a bellows style thermostat. The Robert Shaw is a vintage part. I have one coming. It is going straight in I will let you know. The other is a Racing Thermostat. Notice the comments about "True opening temperature" and "high flow not sensitive to variations in pressure". Also keep in mind, the original might even sit directly in the head, no spacer. (the spacer is used originally) I think the issue is solved. I hope the issue is solved.


    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Robertshaw-...72.m2749.l2649

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Flow-T....c100005.m1851
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    Last edited by bmorgil; 08-13-2019 at 07:19 AM.

  9. #119
    Super Moderator gmwillys's Avatar
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    Great information on thermostats. If the 160 thermostat doesn't work to your satisfaction, an old friend that built our dirt track motors would recommend wetter water additive for the blocks that were punched a little thin. I used it in my derby cars when the plant was more than a one trick pony. The stuff would drop the temperature by 20 degrees on average. I'm not a big advocate for snake oils, but I never saw any adverse effects by using it.

  10. #120
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    I have used it also. It is the one "snake oil" that might be real. I think they call it a "wetting" agent". It supposedly increases the heat conductivity of the water. I will go there if the original bellows setup doesn't work.

    I have thought long and hard about the bored motor. I still had plenty of wall after boring on the sonic testing. There was very little core shift in the block. Nice block. I have run thin wall 283 Chevy's. It wasn't so much they would overheat as they would heat up fast. Logic would say, the thermodynamics are such that the BTU output would not vary at any given load. Horsepower, efficiency, and the subsequent heat loss. However the water will get the heat much quicker as the wall thins. We never knew about the long run, because the problem for us was we needed to fire it up and run a quarter mile, with nothing for water. Thin walls definitely get hot faster.

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