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Thread: My horn is still great... but my carburetor isn't!

  1. #41
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Since you have the F head those are correct. KW has new bolts and the second link you have is for New Old Stock. If you would have had an L head however, never use a bolt.

    NEVER use head bolts on a L134. This mistake is made so many times I cant tell you. The primary reason for most blown head gaskets on a L134. The studs used on the 134 are specific in thread length particularly into the block. They need to be screwed in by hand and left LOOSE. The head is then dropped on and you run the studs down FINGER tight, until they bottom. Then they are torqued in sequence. When blots are used the shank at the top can and usually does, bottom before the threads draw up the head. The studs are the best clamping method we have for cylinder heads. Studded heads are the best method we have today for attaching a cylinder head. I have not seen any bolts that have the correct thread and shank to work without at least washers and checking to be sure it does not bottom out and there is enough thread engaged in the head. I have now scrapped and fixed several blocks of different types including my L134 Willys motors, that were ruined by the bolt bottoming and cracking the block. Many head gaskets have blown multiple times because of incorrect torque on the head.

    https://www.kaiserwillys.com/vehicle...gine/stud-kits

    Had to go on, on this one Jeff. I cant tell you haw many times people make this mistake. The bolts aren't a modern make it better thing for the L head, just the opposite, they are a step back. Faster not better. The reason most modern production engines use bolts is primarily speed of assembly.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 06-03-2021 at 07:00 AM.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator LarrBeard's Avatar
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    Short bolt under carburetor

    The first link is for that short bolt that hides under the throat of the carburetor - the engine will almost run (for a while) if the engine rebuilder leaves it out.

    The full set has 14 long and the one short bolt.
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  3. #43
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Whoops missed that on the first link. I thought it was a full set. That is the "Infamous" bolt you have spoken of before Larry! Often forgotten on disassembly and assembly?

  4. #44
    Member Mark J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51 CJ3 View Post
    If this is the correct replacement, it looks like a standard bolt to me.

    https://www.kaiserwillys.com/cylinde...4-134-f-engine

    But they also sell the set:
    https://www.kaiserwillys.com/nos-15-...4-134-f-engine
    Yes I knew KW sold these but I've found a local place that carries something very close, just not with the wide part of the shank just below the head, which was my concern.
    The other thing with ordering online is some of these companies are showing they have stock of parts, when they don't! I've had two places send me messages a WEEK later, saying that they were waiting for orders from manufactures. They didn't bother to say the parts were on back order, when I had ordered.
    Plus I don't have to have OS bolts, especially at $100. I'm sure they're nice though.

  5. #45
    Member Mark J's Avatar
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    Thanks bmorgil!
    Yes did read up on the L head using studs. Glad I have an F head although I'm jealous the L has the "WILLYS" on it and mine doesn't.
    And... yes - when I started trying to lift the head off, I thought maybe the gasket was sticking so I carefully tried to pry it. FOUR seconds later a little light bulb flashed on in my head, and I remembered that sneaky 2 inch bolt, hiding in the hole.

    Back to the bolt question... seems that larger width portion of the shank isn't all that important?
    Last edited by Mark J; 06-03-2021 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #46
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    The head bolt also provides a location for the head. The shank portion on head bolts is machined larger so the fit is tighter in the head. This helps keep the head close to its proper alignment along with location pins in some motors. Also the grade of bolt is of a high quality. When you put the bolt in a torqued situation it should be stretching slightly to provide the clamp for a good head gasket seal. The design of the bolt, shank length and shape, material, among other things determine when the stretch is correct for the torque applied. I would stick to a good name brand head bolt and use their torque specs and installation procedure if it differs from the Willys book. In the case of head gaskets, the correct clamp force is really important. I am sure many get away with a lot. I am looking at the short bolt from KW. It does not look like the O.E. bolt. The shank looks like a standard bolt. I personally would stick to the N.O.S. O.E. set, or a set from a head bolt supplier specifically for your Willys motor. Not worth the risk on the head gasket sealing for a long time.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 06-03-2021 at 11:57 AM.

  7. #47
    Member Mark J's Avatar
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    My slow slow slow progress update:
    After waiting two weeks the head bolts arrived. They were specifically for the F head, but the bolt head size was smaller.
    I stared at everything for a week (well not literally) and got the head on yesterday. I THOUGHT everything was going well so far and began to start the torque sequence. Well right at bolt #1 I had an issue! I had used my torque wrench recently and assumed it was ok. But when I started realizing it was getting too tight (not clicking at 65 pounds), I stopped, and borrowed my friends torque wrench. I backed off the bolt a hair, used his wrench and it clicked immediately. I think I over-torqued it to maybe 75? I don't know.
    I resumed the sequence, then repeated it just to insure that I didn't miss a bolt. When I got to the small bolt the wrench at first felt tight, then started moving with that "oh sh*t" feeling that the bolt was about to break. I stopped and tried backing the bolt out verrrrrrrry slowly with a smaller wrench and the extension I was using.
    SNAP!!!!! the wrench fell from my hand. This isn't going to be fun, I thought.
    Then I realized what happened. The extension broke! It twisted right off. It was rather old, and made in Japan, back when Japanese things weren't that great.
    Luckily the bolt didn't move at all. I replaced the extension and it was right where it should be.
    However, when I finished the sequence, I realized what else I screwed up! I think this was a stupid mistake. Something looked "missing." Well it was the damn oil filter bracket!
    So I unscrewed the two bolts, stuck in on and just went back through the sequence.
    Now I just need to get everything back on which might happen today or Saturday.
    If all goes well and it starts up and runs...
    I'll let it get up to running temperature. Should I let it cool down completely (as in COLD) before re-torquing?
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  8. #48
    Super Moderator bmorgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark J View Post
    Should I let it cool down completely (as in COLD) before re-torquing?
    Haa I did the same thing on mine Mark. Had it snug as a bug in a rug and then spotted the oil filter bracket. Da** it!

    Head gasket re-torque was a priority in the old days, is still a good idea today and is still required on some applications. On the 134's I would definitely do it at least once, twice wouldn't hurt. When the motor first warms everything expands. This creates a pressure against the fasteners as the head and block grow in size. The gasket gets really compressed. When everything cools back down the gasket in the old days would stay at this new compressed thickness. If you re-fired it and ran it good it without re-torquing, it would blow the new gasket. You had to let it cool down and the bolts would then be loose. After a few cycles and re-torques things would take a set and the bolts would stay tight from then on. When new "No Re-torque" head gaskets came out in the late 70's, the gasket was designed to relax with the cooling parts and grow back to its initial compressed state. In my opinion they work OK. Assembly lines today count on them. I always re-torque if I can. I will tell you they do work well and warranty from them was very low. The gasket on the 134 definitely needs re-torque just for your own sanity. The little bugger is notorious for blown head gaskets. Though I truly believe the little motor suffers from a lot of the afore mentioned "Bubbaisms". Bolts instead of studs, torquing with an air gun, flat clean surface... re-torque... faget' about it ... stuff like that.

    So all that to answer I would re-torque whenever I could and always on a stone cold motor after it has warmed up and cooled.
    Last edited by bmorgil; 07-11-2021 at 09:00 AM.

  9. #49
    Member Mark J's Avatar
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    Thank you! I feel better...
    I got the new radiator hoses, fuel lines, oil line, carburetor on. Saturday I'll get the carb linkage on and ??? - I think that's it? I should probably place the rocker cover on to avoid oil splash. I hope it will run and the Chinese valve works.

  10. #50
    Member Mark J's Avatar
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    Update on my still slow progress...I'll abbreviated it for time sake.
    Everything is on. The engine started, warmed up a little - sputtered and stalled.
    I re-torqued the following morning, but the jeep now would not start. Fast-forward to today, I realized my rebuilt Carter carburetor was clogged - no gas out of the jet. So I put the new Solex style carb (that I was hesitant about way before the valve broke) and it fired right up. It's still running rough but after some tweaking with the distributor and carb, it ran up to temperature. I'm beginning to think I might have a distributor issue. I made very slight turns left and right. It would run better but still seemed to be misfiring. I'm going to do the final re-torque tomorrow and then I'll try to figure out the next problem(s).
    I have ruled out plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser, etc.
    One thing, there was very noticeable difference in just the sound of the engine overall, as in the new exhaust valve IS working.
    Last edited by Mark J; 06-28-2021 at 10:39 AM.

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